Subwoofer comparisons and impressions - Page 57 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1681 of 1778 Old 06-14-2019, 08:56 PM
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post
The sub is tuned to 13.5hz? In my room(still rebuilding it) it would reach 5-6 hz.

There is no reason not to believe Hop just based on specs of the drivers and how similar drivers were tested on DB. Now remember DB numbers are max, outside. Inside you are hardly going to use max with even higher numbers, less distortion, etc.. think about it this way, the excursion is close to the JTR drivers, very close. That is for ULF, now above 20hz the Ipal drivers would be much more powerful, maybe taking two JTR drivers for the same output. Now you will never probably reach the limits from 20-100hz but that means what Hop probably heard, super clean bass with no audible distortion added to having ULF. It does sound like pro audio finally added some ULF, which is why they cost so much.

how can one say never reach limits? I can reach limits everytime I turn power on.

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post #1682 of 1778 Old 06-14-2019, 09:05 PM
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Elaborate?
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post #1683 of 1778 Old 06-14-2019, 09:10 PM
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post
IME burst power don’t last long enough to matter, we are talking milliseconds here. I have owned the clones with max burst and speakerpower and sustained power is where I need it. The one factor which is very important here which was already mentioned is that the efficiency is higher so that extra power is not needed.

Chucky, the 6000 watts vs 4000 watts is what it takes for each sub, the JTR S2 is maximized with 4000 watts, and the dual Ipal need that 6000 watts in a small box. The strong motors are great for smaller boxes. So just because one has more watts does not mean that is the difference, it means the subs are optimized to reach xmax at certain frequencies and play as loud as intended by the designer.

My problem with pro audio drivers is that they have so much midbass on tap it really drowns out the ULF although it is there. I like my ULF higher than my midbass to get that extra weight and feel and with pro audio drivers it is the opposite. Of course the 20-100hz range is fantastic with them, no question. I cross at 50-80hz because I use pro audio dual 12s in my speakers and they handle midbass great, I don’t need more from the subs, I need the weight. The IPAL does have lots of excursion down low and can be crossed over lower the same if preferred, but man why waste all that mid bass spl. The Ipal drivers do look great and I do like the way they model. There are cheaper drivers that get more low end though but at the expense of less than 130 dB midbass.
Yeah, I am just continuing the estimate of the output of dual Ipal 18 in a JTR S2 cabinet. Like you said, starting from dual 21 inch IPAL which was tested by DB. Less output for dual 18 inch IPAL, less output from 6000W to 4000W, more output down low due to a larger cabinet, yada, yada....

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post #1684 of 1778 Old 06-14-2019, 09:10 PM
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^^ Speaking of the Mariana, have you got your pair yet?
Yes, they're here, but I'm still in the process of tweaking and adding bass traps.

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post #1685 of 1778 Old 06-14-2019, 09:10 PM
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you said never reach limits fro 20-100hz...or something like that. people in large spaces can easily ask for more output in those ranges...especially when measuring from 10+ ft away.

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post #1686 of 1778 Old 06-14-2019, 09:22 PM
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Big spaces only matter to pressurize it, being 10 feet away people won’t lose output like outside. We are talking about drivers that can produce well over 120 dB. Ok, maybe 30hz and up, 20 hz still usually gets room gain added to help out. If somebody is pressurizing a very large room I doubt they are buying a single sub and expecting miracles. There will always be exceptions but if an Ipal can’t do it then you need more of them or the horn versions.
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post #1687 of 1778 Old 06-14-2019, 09:45 PM
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not many subs can do 120 plus below 20 or 30 hz in large rooms...

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post #1688 of 1778 Old 06-14-2019, 09:47 PM
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if my subs can do 120db's...I wouldnt think about an upgrade unless can get 127+db...prefer 130db and if I had 130db would want 137db+ for upgrade. it hard for ear/brain to judge 6db or less.

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post #1689 of 1778 Old 06-14-2019, 09:55 PM
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At 10 feet away the room is not as large anymore. If you want to pressurize the whole room even where people are not sitting than good luck. Definitely need more than one sub. People get boundary gains starting around 30hz, some more, some less, and more the lower you go. You just need proper placement to get it. Like I said, there are exceptions. As I said, we have to use common sense too. Does Hop have duals?
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maybe we need to judge subs at 85 or 100db for tactile response or the feel....I cant get my couch to vibrate until 110db...and stuff in room to shake rattle roll until 120db. my velodyne subs could only do 110db in my space. so Im interested in 130+db in 20k cuft room.

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post #1691 of 1778 Old 06-14-2019, 10:46 PM
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I haven't read through the past few weeks of posts in this thread yet. Only a few posts that were pointed out to me.

I want to share some personal observations on TR in relation to port tune.

Rythmik FV18 has more subjective TR at its 16Hz tune vs 12Hz. @imureh what is your observation?

JTR 2400ULF has more subjective TR tuned to 14Hz vs 10Hz. @chucky7 's 2015 Cap 1400 (17Hz tune) has more TR than either the 2400ULFs or his 4000ULF. I have never heard @chucky7 complain about this on the 4000ULF. If he needs more TR he can simply build a platform since he is on a hard slab.

Who has ever experienced too much TR?
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post #1692 of 1778 Old 06-14-2019, 10:58 PM
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@Marc can you give a preference at lower spls vs each other for subs you enjoyed? I can be listening at low avr volumes and some commercials buzz my home while most just exhibit a bit of bass. Im a test tone guy for sub comps...louder always better, but I read some subs do great at lower spl's...

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post #1693 of 1778 Old 06-14-2019, 11:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
Who has ever experienced too much TR?
My wife . I would not be surprised if there aren't a few other spouses who at times run from the room or scream "TURN IT DOWN!"
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post #1694 of 1778 Old 06-15-2019, 04:42 AM
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Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
Yeah, I am just continuing the estimate of the output of dual Ipal 18 in a JTR S2 cabinet. Like you said, starting from dual 21 inch IPAL which was tested by DB. Less output for dual 18 inch IPAL, less output from 6000W to 4000W, more output down low due to a larger cabinet, yada, yada....
This might get you closer to an approximation.

https://data-bass.com/#/systems/5c48...126b0004ca12ec

Unless you think the Ipal won't perform as well, but based on specs, performance should be very similar. These are what I'm running.
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post #1695 of 1778 Old 06-15-2019, 04:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
I haven't read through the past few weeks of posts in this thread yet. Only a few posts that were pointed out to me.

I want to share some personal observations on TR in relation to port tune.

Rythmik FV18 has more subjective TR at its 16Hz tune vs 12Hz. @imureh what is your observation?

JTR 2400ULF has more subjective TR tuned to 14Hz vs 10Hz. @chucky7 's 2015 Cap 1400 (17Hz tune) has more TR than either the 2400ULFs or his 4000ULF. I have never heard @chucky7 complain about this on the 4000ULF. If he needs more TR he can simply build a platform since he is on a hard slab.

Who has ever experienced too much TR?
This makes sense to me as I have always felt that mid teens up are drastically more tactile than 10 Hz. So a port tune in the more noticeable frequencies would have more TR than a 10 Hz tune that reduces output and TR in the mid/upper teens/20Hz region.

I do think certain rooms might change this, but in my room, 115dB at 10 Hz is barely noticeable, while closer to 15 Hz and up really gets things shaking. There are a few folks like MKtheater who have a huge boost down low with much higher 120+ dB capability to where the 10Hz and under stuff is perceptible, but plenty of examples of others such as Notnyt with his eight $1000 18" drivers who switched from sealed to 14(?) Hz ported to increase tactile effect by reducing 10Hz and under and increasing mid teens and up a lot.

IMO, if you can't get 120dB+ 10Hz and under, most folks would be better off overall having higher mid teens+ output even if its at the expense of a little bit of 10 Hz.

Although I like keeping my cabs on the smaller side(sealed), I have no doubt that switching to 15Hz ported cabs would be a huge upgrade even if my 10Hz output dropped some.

I think all the 10Hz drag racing lately is extremely overrated. I think PSA may have hit the sweet spot. Even Josh Ricci has stated recently on the forums that he thinks the 10Hz craze is over rated.
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post #1696 of 1778 Old 06-15-2019, 07:22 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
I haven't read through the past few weeks of posts in this thread yet. Only a few posts that were pointed out to me.



I want to share some personal observations on TR in relation to port tune.



Rythmik FV18 has more subjective TR at its 16Hz tune vs 12Hz. @imureh what is your observation?



JTR 2400ULF has more subjective TR tuned to 14Hz vs 10Hz. @chucky7 's 2015 Cap 1400 (17Hz tune) has more TR than either the 2400ULFs or his 4000ULF. I have never heard @chucky7 complain about this on the 4000ULF. If he needs more TR he can simply build a platform since he is on a hard slab.



Who has ever experienced too much TR?


Yes Marc that is correct, more TR at 16hz tuning as that is all ports open and has more output. But I think this is true with all subs where the upper output is compromised with a lower tuning. However I think we need to remember that when this whole LT conversation started in this thread it was not about TR. What I had said was that I liked the weight in the bass that I heard on LT sub. That weight seemed to have a distinct signature that carried across the bandwidth. So to @bear123 ’s point, the conversation now seems to have changed to TR and 10hz. Question that I was answering was does a 10hz sub have more weight than one tuned in mid to high teens? The answer seems to be yes. That is what MK was stating as well. Think these are two different aspects. It makes sense that you experience the mid teens more than 10hz so yes Hop likely feels more TR with other factors combined. The 10hz conversation was never about TR, it was about the weight of the bass let’s not confuse the two.


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post #1697 of 1778 Old 06-15-2019, 10:48 AM
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TR for below 10hz is nothing like above. When I run the Edge of Tomorrow scene the 10hz is as powerful as the 30hz, however, my seats do not shake as I am on concrete. My body feels it more because the TR will not transfer on concrete to my chairs. 10hz and below brings a more subtle effect, underwater pressure and bass heft or weight. It makes bass seem more natural rather than hollow sounding.

The whole point I was making above is that we can't compare JTR drivers x-max to Ipal xmax as they are not measured the same way, it is closer if measured the same way and why excursion would be close. A 20mm driver will not have as much excursion as a 33mm driver if measured the same obviously so it is not like a pro audio driver has some magical xmax hidden, just measured differently. Same for my drivers, if measured like the pro drivers it would not have 54mm, it would be much less.
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post #1698 of 1778 Old 06-15-2019, 12:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post
At 10 feet away the room is not as large anymore. If you want to pressurize the whole room even where people are not sitting than good luck. Definitely need more than one sub. People get boundary gains starting around 30hz, some more, some less, and more the lower you go. You just need proper placement to get it. Like I said, there are exceptions. As I said, we have to use common sense too. Does Hop have duals?
Yes. I have dual TV36 iPals.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post
TR for below 10hz is nothing like above. When I run the Edge of Tomorrow scene the 10hz is as powerful as the 30hz, however, my seats do not shake as I am on concrete. My body feels it more because the TR will not transfer on concrete to my chairs. 10hz and below brings a more subtle effect, underwater pressure and bass heft or weight. It makes bass seem more natural rather than hollow sounding.
I have no idea what I'm getting for in room extension because my computer is not liking REW (or much else for that matter) so I need to get a new computer before I can run REW. But the weighty underwater pressure effect you mention is exactly how one of my daughters described the bass from the TV36 iPal and I agree with her. In the PSA thread I described the bass from these subs as being full and multi-dimensional rather than one dimensional. I think I'm trying to describe the same thing you are describing when you say: "It makes bass seem more natural rather than hollow sounding"... because that's exactly it. The bass has so many dimensions to it that it naturally envelopes you rather than just trying to pound you.

Another thing to think about is I haven't even unleashed them yet. I've been watching demo scenes and movies at -18 to -16 on the MV while running them 6 dB hot. I guess I really should crank them up a little and see what happens.

A final note, I did see where Tom said with room gain these should reach about 10Hz but I've never seen a 7 Hz claim. I may have missed something but I haven't seen that low of a figure.
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post #1699 of 1778 Old 06-15-2019, 01:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post
The bass has so many dimensions to it that it naturally envelopes you rather than just trying to pound you.
Did you not feel that with the 2400ulfs? I have been saying this for so long and so many times that a good LT sub creates this 3D immersive sound. One does not get to feel this with high teen tuned subs and does not know what he is missing until experiencing a good low tuned sub which was exactly what Ray went though.
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post #1700 of 1778 Old 06-15-2019, 01:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post

A final note, I did see where Tom said with room gain these should reach about 10Hz but I've never seen a 7 Hz claim. I may have missed something but I haven't seen that low of a figure.
Hey Hop

Tom wrote

Quote:
Tune is 13.5hz +/- 0.5hz.

FR is (+/-3) 15hz-150hz anechoic. 7-10hz pressurization in all but the largest rooms

Congrats on the subs too, glad they are everything you hoped for mate!
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post #1701 of 1778 Old 06-15-2019, 03:25 PM
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Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
Did you not feel that with the 2400ulfs? I have been saying this for so long and so many times that a good LT sub creates this 3D immersive sound. One does not get to feel this with high teen tuned subs and does not know what he is missing until experiencing a good low tuned sub which was exactly what Ray went though.
Ummmm. No, not in the way the TV36 iPal does. With the 2400ULF I felt the underwater pressurization effect for sure and I felt enveloped in it and I really liked it, no doubt about it. But they present that immersive effect differently than the TV36 iPals. The 2400ULFs seemed to really bring the ULF in great intensity and that's what really stands out, the intense ULF. Where as (to me) the TV36 iPal seems to bring the ULF with intensity but at the same time it brings powerful clean mid-bass with it and it all blends together into a wonderful multi-dimensional bass presentation. Like I said in my write up, I feel like I'm hearing bass like I've never heard it before.

It feels kind of like when I went to High efficiency speakers, I started hearing notes in music I had never heard before. Now with these subs in bass scenes I feel like I'm hearing bass in a way I never heard it before. I'm trying not to overstate things but it's the best way I can describe it.

Some people may prefer the bass of a low tuned sub where the ULF primarily stands out and others may prefer a LT sub where the ULF and mid-bass both hit hard. The cool thing is there are more and more LT subs coming available and the more there are the more subs that are available for everyone's taste. All of these subs are top notch contenders.

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Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post
It feels kind of like when I went to High efficiency speakers, I started hearing notes in music I had never heard before.
This probably has everything to do with the horns or waveguides found in typical high efficiency designs, and nothing to do with the actual efficiency of the speaker. That may be what you meant, but I just wanted to clarify for the audience

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post #1703 of 1778 Old 06-16-2019, 07:03 AM
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Originally Posted by jamiebosco View Post
Hey Hop

Congrats on the subs too, glad they are everything you hoped for mate!
Thanks bud. I've finally found what I've been looking for all these years. I'm officially declaring my sub search complete.

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post #1704 of 1778 Old 06-16-2019, 07:22 AM
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I'm officially declaring my sub search complete.
Until the end of the year when the dual ipal TV42 comes out
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post #1705 of 1778 Old 06-16-2019, 03:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post
Thanks bud. I've finally found what I've been looking for all these years. I'm officially declaring my sub search complete.
And after a few months, you will get bored. And start looking at what else, can I improve

In my case, it was some custom made Outrigger, for the front 3 speakers.
https://soundocity.com/
Then made my own, fancy speakers wires.
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-sp...nd-cables.html
All in the name of been bored, and thinking what else can I do. None were to improve my sound, just a better look


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post #1706 of 1778 Old 06-17-2019, 12:11 PM
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Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
This might get you closer to an approximation.

https://data-bass.com/#/systems/5c48...126b0004ca12ec

Unless you think the Ipal won't perform as well, but based on specs, performance should be very similar. These are what I'm running.
Nah, I don't really care if the Ipals will perform or not. I am only into the numbers because it is the new kid on the block... I also did the CEA-2010 estimate when the 2400ULF and 2400 came out... Of course the numbers were updated once Data-bass tested them.

Speakers: L/C/R: JTR Noesis 212HT. Surrounds: Jamo C103, KEF Q100, Polk Audio RTiA3.
Subwoofer: JTR Captivator 4000ULF.
AVR: Denon AVR-X4400H. TV: Samsung UN75NU8000FXZA.

FS: Jamo C103, KEF Q100 and Polk RTiA3

Last edited by chucky7; 06-17-2019 at 12:35 PM.
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post #1707 of 1778 Old 06-17-2019, 12:23 PM
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Chucky7,
It is not hard to figure out, you can see patterns between drivers with similar specs, etc.. The Cap4000 is king at 10hz only because it is the only 10hz tuned dual 18 measured so far. That is great and all, but DIYers do crazy things all the time. If some of those high excursion drivers were tuned to 10hz in a big box they would reign supreme. I don't need actual DB data to know that.
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post #1708 of 1778 Old 06-17-2019, 12:32 PM
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Chucky7,
It is not hard to figure out, you can see patterns between drivers with similar specs, etc.. The Cap4000 is king at 10hz only because it is the only 10hz tuned dual 18 measured so far. That is great and all, but DIYers do crazy things all the time. If some of those high excursion drivers were tuned to 10hz in a big box they would reign supreme. I don't need actual DB data to know that.
Yeah, I know... One just need to input all the T/S parameters into a WinISD...

I am just not ready to dive into it...

Speakers: L/C/R: JTR Noesis 212HT. Surrounds: Jamo C103, KEF Q100, Polk Audio RTiA3.
Subwoofer: JTR Captivator 4000ULF.
AVR: Denon AVR-X4400H. TV: Samsung UN75NU8000FXZA.

FS: Jamo C103, KEF Q100 and Polk RTiA3
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post #1709 of 1778 Old 06-17-2019, 12:36 PM
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Not really, it takes much more than that but as someone who has been doing it for a while it is easier to do. You can start figuring out the differences from DB, WinIsd, and in room testing using the same drivers and what happens with different cabinets, power, etc.. WinIsd is just a rough start.

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post #1710 of 1778 Old 06-17-2019, 01:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
Nah, I don't really care if the Ipals will perform or not. I am only into the numbers because it is the new kid on the block... I also did the CEA-2010 estimate when the 2400ULF and 2400 came out... Of course the numbers were updated once Data-bass tested them.


Well, that’s the point of linking the test results of the driver I did. I don’t think you will find a better estimate of how the 18 ipal will perform in a small sealed cab than comparing to one of the other best high excursion 18” pro audio drivers made. BMS with 19mm xmax, ipal with 20. This should get closer than trying to extrapolate from a totally different ultra high excursion low efficiency driver.


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