Subwoofer comparisons and impressions - Page 59 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1741 of 1826 Old 06-19-2019, 11:19 AM
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Originally Posted by drh3b View Post
I grew up in the seventies. I didn't even know what a subwoofer was. We had what was considered a solid budget audiophile setup, a Sony receiver, The Advent Loudspeaker, The AR turntable and a Teac 1200u reel to reel.

That is absolute garbage compared to what you can get now. I don't miss tape hiss, tape print through, over modulation distortion, etc, etc. I'm sure the super expensive stuff of the day was better, but not nearly as good as what you can get now for a relatively low price.

The good old days.
If the early 2000's were the ice age, I consider that time the post-prehistoric period Perhaps now we are in the modern Renaissance era where MQA and Higher Rez streaming are just starting to get back to where they need to be.
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post #1742 of 1826 Old 06-19-2019, 01:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave Ol View Post
Exactly why I ordered the TV36 ipal. I currently have a JTR 2400 and love it. It's a great sub and anyone that owns a JTR sub should feel lucky to have one.

I bought the 2400 because I was intrigued by the people here on the forum who described a much more weightier feel to the bass. I was very intrigued by what people were describing, and I wanted a piece of that. However, I knew that I would possibly be giving up on some mid bass in order to get that low end extension. With the new TV36 ipal, I am hoping to get the best of both worlds. And from what Hop has described to date, they seem to be delivering on that. Hope to have mine in a couple of weeks and I'll be able to compare the two side by side.
I'm definitely interested to hear your impressions as I'm sure many other people are as well.

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post #1743 of 1826 Old 06-19-2019, 02:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post
It's the same thinking that leaves listeners surprised when super compact products like the Paradigm Sub1/Sub2, or JL Audio subwoofers don't compare well against physically much larger, but lower power designs.
I dunno, I've always been very impressed by the numbers the Sub 2 put up on data-bass, and having heard one at my local dealer, I can tell you it's both an impressive piece of engineering, and it sounds awesome.
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post #1744 of 1826 Old 06-19-2019, 05:43 PM
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Originally Posted by ratbuddy View Post
I dunno, I've always been very impressed by the numbers the Sub 2 put up on data-bass, and having heard one at my local dealer, I can tell you it's both an impressive piece of engineering, and it sounds awesome.
I dunno, I was left very surprised the first time I heard a physically much larger, lower power subwoofer design vs super compact products like the Paradigm Sub1/Sub2 and JL Audio. I felt they didn't compare well at all.
Eye opening to say the least.

While I personally appreciate you sharing your experience with the Sub2, I'm not sure how much your engineering insight and subjective listening impressions are of any relevance to a Mark Seaton... I mean, what can "you" actually contribute to the conversation when the person you are imparting your wisdom is a recognized authority on said subject and actually has thousands of hours researching, designing, developing and manufacturing subwoofers?

I guess on that same note, who am I to question you?!?!? I'm going to have to blame Google because my search for "ratbuddy subwoofer engineer" and "ratbuddy takes Mark Seaton to school" yielded no results.

Please don't take this post the wrong way.
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post #1745 of 1826 Old 06-19-2019, 05:56 PM - Thread Starter
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@Mark Seaton , any plans on jumping into the ported LT arena again m? Something like or smaller than a Terraform with 18 inch drivers would be awesome. Bring back the Terraform, the era of big subs is back.


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post #1746 of 1826 Old 06-19-2019, 06:11 PM
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I wish I had the coin for custom built in subs into my walls/ceiling...I would rather have 8 x 12 in. subs strategically placed than 2 big fridge sized boxes for sure. 2 big boxes what I can afford...

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post #1747 of 1826 Old 06-19-2019, 06:39 PM
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Originally Posted by popalock View Post
I dunno, I was left very surprised the first time I heard a physically much larger, lower power subwoofer design vs super compact products like the Paradigm Sub1/Sub2 and JL Audio. I felt they didn't compare well at all.
Eye opening to say the least.

While I personally appreciate you sharing your experience with the Sub2, I'm not sure how much your engineering insight and subjective listening impressions are of any relevance to a Mark Seaton... I mean, what can "you" actually contribute to the conversation when the person you are imparting your wisdom is a recognized authority on said subject and actually has thousands of hours researching, designing, developing and manufacturing subwoofers?

I guess on that same note, who am I to question you?!?!? I'm going to have to blame Google because my search for "ratbuddy subwoofer engineer" and "ratbuddy takes Mark Seaton to school" yielded no results.

Please don't take this post the wrong way.
There's only one way I could take it, as petty condescension. Seriously, go look at the Paradigm Sub 2 on data-bass instead of basing a response on hero-worship.
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post #1748 of 1826 Old 06-19-2019, 06:44 PM
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Originally Posted by ratbuddy View Post
I dunno, I've always been very impressed by the numbers the Sub 2 put up on data-bass, and having heard one at my local dealer, I can tell you it's both an impressive piece of engineering, and it sounds awesome.
Quote:
Originally Posted by popalock View Post
I dunno, I was left very surprised the first time I heard a physically much larger, lower power subwoofer design vs super compact products like the Paradigm Sub1/Sub2 and JL Audio. I felt they didn't compare well at all.
Eye opening to say the least.

While I personally appreciate you sharing your experience with the Sub2, I'm not sure how much your engineering insight and subjective listening impressions are of any relevance to a Mark Seaton... I mean, what can "you" actually contribute to the conversation when the person you are imparting your wisdom is a recognized authority on said subject and actually has thousands of hours researching, designing, developing and manufacturing subwoofers?

I guess on that same note, who am I to question you?!?!? I'm going to have to blame Google because my search for "ratbuddy subwoofer engineer" and "ratbuddy takes Mark Seaton to school" yielded no results.

Please don't take this post the wrong way.
I am probably the only person ever to have the Sub 2 and an S7201 in their listening room, which I believe is relevant to the discussion in size vs performance. They were both EQ'd with the same system and placed in the same location in my listening room (although the Sub 2 did have the advantage of its integrated PBK EQ prior to Audyssey correction). I have gained a ton of respect for what Paradigm was able to achieve in the Sub 2. To get that kind of performance in a form factor so small is nothing short of amazing. In my listening room, cost/form factor aside, I would take a single Sub 2 over a single S7201. The Sub 2 sounded marginally better to me. Factoring in cost it is a no-brainer though, the S7201 is priced over half less than a Sub 2. I take it the Sub 2 premium comes from cramming S7201 performance in a package 1/4 the size, really amazing.

Don't get me wrong, I am all for big baddies. Funk is currently building me two 24" ULF vented monsters (that are almost done) because the dual S7201 set-up I had didn't scratch my itch enough.
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post #1749 of 1826 Old 06-19-2019, 06:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Todeseng3l View Post
I am probably the only person ever to ever have the Sub 2 and an S7201 in their listening room, which I believe is relevant to the discussion in size vs performance. They were both EQ'd with the same system and placed in the same location in my listening room (although the Sub 2 did have the advantage of its integrated PBK EQ prior to Audyssey correction). I have gained a ton of respect for what Paradigm was able to achieve in the Sub 2. To get that kind of performance in a form factor so small is nothing short of amazing. In my listening room, cost/form factor aside, I would take a single Sub 2 over a single S7201. The Sub 2 sounded marginally better to me. Factoring in cost it is a no-brainer though, the S7201 is priced over half less than a Sub 2. I take it the Sub 2 premium comes from cramming S7201 performance in a package 1/4 the size, really amazing.

Don't get me wrong, I am all for big baddies. Funk is currently building me two 24" ULF vented monsters (that are almost done) because the dual S7201 set-up I had didn't scratch my itch enough.
Hmm, I googled Todeseng3l subwoofer engineer and nothing came up, I guess your opinion doesn't count
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post #1750 of 1826 Old 06-19-2019, 07:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Todeseng3l View Post
I am probably the only person ever to have the Sub 2 and an S7201 in their listening room, which I believe is relevant to the discussion in size vs performance. They were both EQ'd with the same system and placed in the same location in my listening room (although the Sub 2 did have the advantage of its integrated PBK EQ prior to Audyssey correction). I have gained a ton of respect for what Paradigm was able to achieve in the Sub 2. To get that kind of performance in a form factor so small is nothing short of amazing. In my listening room, cost/form factor aside, I would take a single Sub 2 over a single S7201. The Sub 2 sounded marginally better to me. Factoring in cost it is a no-brainer though, the S7201 is priced over half less than a Sub 2. I take it the Sub 2 premium comes from cramming S7201 performance in a package 1/4 the size, really amazing.



Don't get me wrong, I am all for big baddies. Funk is currently building me two 24" ULF vented monsters (that are almost done) because the dual S7201 set-up I had didn't scratch my itch enough.


May be this image is what reminded me of the Seaton Terraform though I was not thinking about it at that moment.


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post #1751 of 1826 Old 06-19-2019, 07:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Todeseng3l View Post
I am probably the only person ever to have the Sub 2 and an S7201 in their listening room, which I believe is relevant to the discussion in size vs performance. They were both EQ'd with the same system and placed in the same location in my listening room (although the Sub 2 did have the advantage of its integrated PBK EQ prior to Audyssey correction). I have gained a ton of respect for what Paradigm was able to achieve in the Sub 2. To get that kind of performance in a form factor so small is nothing short of amazing. In my listening room, cost/form factor aside, I would take a single Sub 2 over a single S7201. The Sub 2 sounded marginally better to me. Factoring in cost it is a no-brainer though, the S7201 is priced over half less than a Sub 2. I take it the Sub 2 premium comes from cramming S7201 performance in a package 1/4 the size, really amazing.

Don't get me wrong, I am all for big baddies. Funk is currently building me two 24" ULF vented monsters (that are almost done) because the dual S7201 set-up I had didn't scratch my itch enough.
Is that an illusion or is 1 box bigger than the other?

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post #1752 of 1826 Old 06-19-2019, 07:18 PM
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Is that an illusion or is 1 box bigger than the other?
Not an illusion, same box dimensions- driver is just on the wide face to better integrate it into my living room
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post #1753 of 1826 Old 06-19-2019, 07:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Todeseng3l View Post
Not an illusion, same box dimensions- driver is just on the wide face to better integrate it into my living room
1 box looks taller to me.

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post #1754 of 1826 Old 06-19-2019, 07:49 PM
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Originally Posted by ratbuddy View Post
There's only one way I could take it, as petty condescension. Seriously, go look at the Paradigm Sub 2 on data-bass instead of basing a response on hero-worship.
Well, I personally wouldn't call it petty, but to each their own. I'm glad you are familiar with data-bass. Agreed. Not many subs out there that can beat the Sub2's performance in such a small form factor.
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post #1755 of 1826 Old 06-19-2019, 07:55 PM
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I am very happy id companies have produced very high quality subs that while still pricey arent out of this world for an amp, subs, box. my fv25hp is very capable at under 3k. my old velodyne hgs 12 which retail was 2k just doesnt even compare. and even tho it was 14x14x14, it still takes up space, I kinda hate small subs now, like having vertical space so I can put my plant on 1 w/out looking dumb at ankle level.
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maybe these small subs need sub stands like bookshelves do so they look normal in space.
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post #1757 of 1826 Old 06-19-2019, 11:14 PM
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I don't know guys, but the JTR S2 is slightly larger than the sub2, more output and much less, and the dual opposed Ipal is just a tad larger(7.5 vs 8 cubes) with more performance and still much cheaper.
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post #1758 of 1826 Old 06-20-2019, 06:44 AM
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I don't know guys, but the JTR S2 is slightly larger than the sub2, more output and much less, and the dual opposed Ipal is just a tad larger(7.5 vs 8 cubes) with more performance and still much cheaper.
Some places the S2 has more than 10db more output also.

Doesn’t tell you how they sound though.
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post #1759 of 1826 Old 06-20-2019, 10:10 AM
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Originally Posted by ratbuddy View Post
I dunno, I've always been very impressed by the numbers the Sub 2 put up on data-bass, and having heard one at my local dealer, I can tell you it's both an impressive piece of engineering, and it sounds awesome.
Quote:
Originally Posted by popalock View Post
I dunno, I was left very surprised the first time I heard a physically much larger, lower power subwoofer design vs super compact products like the Paradigm Sub1/Sub2 and JL Audio. I felt they didn't compare well at all.
Eye opening to say the least.

While I personally appreciate you sharing your experience with the Sub2, I'm not sure how much your engineering insight and subjective listening impressions are of any relevance to a Mark Seaton... I mean, what can "you" actually contribute to the conversation when the person you are imparting your wisdom is a recognized authority on said subject and actually has thousands of hours researching, designing, developing and manufacturing subwoofers?

I guess on that same note, who am I to question you?!?!? I'm going to have to blame Google because my search for "ratbuddy subwoofer engineer" and "ratbuddy takes Mark Seaton to school" yielded no results.

Please don't take this post the wrong way.
Hi ratbuddy,

Popalock always makes for great entertainment, and he has significant experience with some monster size subwoofers. If you haven't heard a well done, significantly larger sub, a Sub2 is extremely impressive. While I know he was just poking some fun, I would note that no one else's qualifications invalidates your observation and impressions. As many have noted, the Sub2 is a very good sounding subwoofer, especially for it's overall size. Many of us will argue the value proposition isn't as attractive, even at what ever street price comes down to from the $10,500 MSRP. Once you get into a room that needs more than a Sub2 and compare to a physically larger and more capable solution, it will be very easy to see we are talking about very different levels of performance expectations. While I tried to convince John Johnson of Secrets of Home Theater & HiFi there was no need for the 240V capable "i" version, the performance is the same as our 120V version for less money. He makes more than a few references in his review comparing to the Sub2 which was in his room prior to the SubMersive. In today's market, most posting in this thread would consider the SubMersive he evaluated a good base-line comparison and look at how many they need/want to fill a room of a given size. A SubMersive is also relatively compact compared to most of the subs being discussed in the last few pages.

What I believe popalock was trying to communicate was that there is another world of subwoofer performance beyond what most retailers have on display with compact options like a JL F113 or Sub2.
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post #1760 of 1826 Old 06-20-2019, 10:16 AM
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Hi ratbuddy,

Popalock always makes for great entertainment, and he has significant experience with some monster size subwoofers. If you haven't heard a well done, significantly larger sub, a Sub2 is extremely impressive. While I know he was just poking some fun, I would note that no one else's qualifications invalidates your observation and impressions. As many have noted, the Sub2 is a very good sounding subwoofer, especially for it's overall size. Many of us will argue the value proposition isn't as attractive, even at what ever street price comes down to from the $10,500 MSRP. Once you get into a room that needs more than a Sub2 and compare to a physically larger and more capable solution, it will be very easy to see we are talking about very different levels of performance expectations. While I tried to convince John Johnson of Secrets of Home Theater & HiFi there was no need for the 240V capable "i" version, the performance is the same as our 120V version for less money. He makes more than a few references in his review comparing to the Sub2 which was in his room prior to the SubMersive. In today's market, most posting in this thread would consider the SubMersive he evaluated a good base-line comparison and look at how many they need/want to fill a room of a given size. A SubMersive is also relatively compact compared to most of the subs being discussed in the last few pages.

What I believe popalock was trying to communicate was that there is another world of subwoofer performance beyond what most retailers have on display with compact options like a JL F113 or Sub2.
As the owner of a pair of TV36ipal, I fully agree that there's another world of performance out there. I'm not calling the Sub 2 a good value, but it's a very good subwoofer for what it is. The only thing I really disagree about is the characterization of sub consumers as ignorant to the benefits of big ported subs. I'm well aware of Hoffman's Iron Law, and I do understand what compromises went into the Sub 2 design. I wouldn't call it inferior to big ported subs, it was just designed with a very different set of goals.

Of course, I could be fooling myself as to the level of understanding the average sub consumer possesses - spending too much time around here will do that
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post #1761 of 1826 Old 06-20-2019, 10:16 AM
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@Mark Seaton , any plans on jumping into the ported LT arena again m? Something like or smaller than a Terraform with 18 inch drivers would be awesome. Bring back the Terraform, the era of big subs is back.
I did a handful of crazy big subs with VLF tunings in the mid 2000s. Going on the actual installations prompted me to offer the more modular F18 approach and some newer compact form factors of the F18 for the custom install market. I will likely offer something like a next generation Terraform, but dimensions are very important in allowing a sub to be placed in a useful location, and it has to be something I'm excited to offer, else it's certainly not worth dealing with the mobile closet size cabinets in the warehouse.
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post #1762 of 1826 Old 06-20-2019, 10:19 AM - Thread Starter
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I did a handful of crazy big subs with VLF tunings in the mid 2000s. Going on the actual installations prompted me to offer the more modular F18 approach and some newer compact form factors of the F18 for the custom install market. I will likely offer something like a next generation Terraform, but dimensions are very important in allowing a sub to be placed in a useful location, and it has to be something I'm excited to offer, else it's certainly not worth dealing with the mobile closet size cabinets in the warehouse.

Understood and agree with everything you state. Next generation Terraform would be a great offering. Exciting times.


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Subwoofers: Dual Rythmik FV18s Rev2 with Paper cone, BOSS Platform mini riser, 2 BK LFE
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post #1763 of 1826 Old 06-20-2019, 11:21 AM
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I did a handful of crazy big subs with VLF tunings in the mid 2000s. Going on the actual installations prompted me to offer the more modular F18 approach and some newer compact form factors of the F18 for the custom install market. I will likely offer something like a next generation Terraform, but dimensions are very important in allowing a sub to be placed in a useful location, and it has to be something I'm excited to offer, else it's certainly not worth dealing with the mobile closet size cabinets in the warehouse.
As much as I love the big boys I really like with your modular approach. I have tried so many designs and finally just went sealed and adding the LT boost(or low shelf) brings up the low end tactile feel just like ported but with that deeper weight and sound because you are not dropping off under a tune.
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post #1764 of 1826 Old 06-21-2019, 11:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post
I did a handful of crazy big subs with VLF tunings in the mid 2000s. Going on the actual installations prompted me to offer the more modular F18 approach and some newer compact form factors of the F18 for the custom install market. I will likely offer something like a next generation Terraform, but dimensions are very important in allowing a sub to be placed in a useful location, and it has to be something I'm excited to offer, else it's certainly not worth dealing with the mobile closet size cabinets in the warehouse.
Aw come on Mark, I saw some of those alternative subs in your warehouse and they were no larger than a refrigerator. Certainly smaller than a closet...
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post #1765 of 1826 Old 06-21-2019, 01:07 PM
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Since we're on the subwoofer comparisons and impressions thread............when's the next review? @JimWilson

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post #1766 of 1826 Old 06-21-2019, 04:31 PM
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Since we're on the subwoofer comparisons and impressions thread............when's the next review? @JimWilson

Todd
I have an article on an RSL 5.2 system about to drop. I would have posted it in May but the pictures have been killing me. Long story short, my neighbor is a hobbyist photographer and she takes some awesome nature shots. Since my photography skills are lacking I asked if she wanted to shoot these pictures (the finishes are really nice so I figured someone with thousands of dollars worth of equipment would be able to do them justice). Pics from the first session didn't come out as nice as either of us hoped though so we did a second session. Those are better but still not killer. I would rather do a third shoot but I just don't have the time to spare so I will likely post the eval sometime this weekend anyway.

Next up is the Monoprice M15-S. I put that in rotation about 2 weeks ago so I've been jotting down some notes already. That will be on-line in July. While testing that I also hooked up some speakers I have for review; OSD's Black Series. That's another in a long line of "where does he find this stuff?" products. After that will likely be something equally obscure, the Next Level Acoustics CI-HV15P. I may see about getting a Martin Logan 1600X as well. I did a review years ago on the 1500X so it might make a good follow-up piece to see what the differences are.

 
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post #1767 of 1826 Old 06-21-2019, 07:21 PM
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I have an article on an RSL 5.2 system about to drop. I would have posted it in May but the pictures have been killing me. Long story short, my neighbor is a hobbyist photographer and she takes some awesome nature shots. Since my photography skills are lacking I asked if she wanted to shoot these pictures (the finishes are really nice so I figured someone with thousands of dollars worth of equipment would be able to do them justice). Pics from the first session didn't come out as nice as either of us hoped though so we did a second session. Those are better but still not killer. I would rather do a third shoot but I just don't have the time to spare so I will likely post the eval sometime this weekend anyway.

Next up is the Monoprice M15-S. I put that in rotation about 2 weeks ago so I've been jotting down some notes already. That will be on-line in July. While testing that I also hooked up some speakers I have for review; OSD's Black Series. That's another in a long line of "where does he find this stuff?" products. After that will likely be something equally obscure, the Next Level Acoustics CI-HV15P. I may see about getting a Martin Logan 1600X as well. I did a review years ago on the 1500X so it might make a good follow-up piece to see what the differences are.

Jim, just want to say Kudos to you. For doing reviews on the smaller subs, for those with a more restricted budget. A great help to advance this hobby, since the ones been in this hobby for a long time. Usually, look at way more expensive gears.


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post #1768 of 1826 Old 06-21-2019, 08:12 PM
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doing studio shots of gear/product requires a vast knowledge and flash/lighting system. most outdoor photographers dont have that gear....better luck getting a baby/studio photographer.
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post #1769 of 1826 Old 06-21-2019, 08:54 PM
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Jim, just want to say Kudos to you. For doing reviews on the smaller subs, for those with a more restricted budget. A great help to advance this hobby, since the ones been in this hobby for a long time. Usually, look at way more expensive gears.
Thank you for the kind words. I try my best to cover the gamut, from inexpensive to expensive. I also attempt to highlight products other reviewers don't, specifically from manufacturers most have never heard of. I actually enjoy finding the hidden gem, something most of my contemporaries don't seem too enamored with. This isn't my day job though - I make my money in technology - so I'm in the position to do what I want, how I want. I take full advantage of that too, and I hope my product selection reflects the freedom I have. What's that saying, "there's no one more free than the person with nothing to lose". That's me.
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post #1770 of 1826 Old 06-21-2019, 09:00 PM
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doing studio shots of gear/product requires a vast knowledge and flash/lighting system. most outdoor photographers dont have that gear....better luck getting a baby/studio photographer.
Amen to that! I had no idea how hard 'catalog' shots were. I probably have more time invested in this review helping Pam with the pictures than writing the actual article. It was a learning experience for sure, but I'm OK with that because I have an insatiable thirst for knowledge. I like to learn new things, and for sure that was the case this time.
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