Dual 2400ULF's vs (3) XTZ 3x12's vs (3) FV18's - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #61 of 127 Old 10-30-2018, 03:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
^^^

We know from numerous people who have compared JTR and PSA subs to Rythmik subs that the Rythmiks have more clarity--more ability to distinguish individual sounds, where the other two subs have a somewhat thicker, richer sound.
Do you think the difference is lower distortion, servos, or something else entirely?
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post #62 of 127 Old 10-30-2018, 03:59 PM
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Dang, you guys have been busy........doesn't anyone work around here! Since I have a few minutes to kill before I leave I thought I'd leave a quick opinion/comments.

Having been in Ray's sealed suspended wood floor compared to my open wood floor I would be more apt to choose the FV18 since your room is small. Conversely, if you plan to have a larger more open room in the future, then the 2400 all the way. With the caveat that I don't know what either would sound like on concrete. If concrete makes a big difference for TR and you are looking for low bass and low TR then the 2400 wins in my opinion.

And honestly, I think you would be happy with 2 of either but far be it for me to dissuade you from 3. We like to spend each others money on this forum!

Serious question though, in a small room like his, if he were to buy 3, won't the TR go down theoretically? More subs = less work? @tvuong @chucky7 @imureh @mthomas47

As others have said, and I can't stress this enough............reach out to some local owners and see if they will let you demo! Even better is to audition in your room. That is the only sure fire way of knowing what you like and how much you need/want.

To me, I think the FV18, FV25, 2400 and 2400ulf are all end game ported subs....you can't go wrong with any of them. But, they will sound and act slightly different in your room. Which is why, I love the 2400ulf for my room and I love the FV18 for Ray's room.

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post #63 of 127 Old 10-30-2018, 04:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jjackkrash View Post
Do you think the difference is lower distortion, servos, or something else entirely?



I wish that I had a good explanation, but I'm afraid that one is above my pay grade. There are too many anecdotal reports, though, to dismiss the idea that Rythmik subs have a little different sound signature compared to most other subs. Distortion seems unlikely since it doesn't seem to be volume-related, and none of the subwoofers should be distorting at lower volume levels. Is it the servo mechanism? I don't know.

I do know that different drivers, playing in our more normal hearing range, can have sound characteristics that could generally be described as warmer or brighter, with brightness and clarity having a relationship. And, I'm not sure that I have heard very good explanations for those differences either.

It does seem to me that Rythmik subwoofers are a little different in this regard from SVS, and PSA, and JTR, and XTZ subwoofers. Some people would undoubtedly hear subtle differences among those subwoofers as well, if they listened carefully, but I believe that they would sound more alike than not, in comparison to Rythmik subwoofers. That's what I was getting at earlier.

Regards,
Mike
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post #64 of 127 Old 10-30-2018, 04:10 PM
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Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
Actually, you said you felt more TR from your FV15HPs on suspended floor than my 4000ULF on concrete. You also put your hand on the back of chair and shook it to illustrate.

The point I was trying to make is that the suspended floor matters big time! That got me considering adding a platform...


Suspended floor makes bass about 500% more noticeable from what i gather. This is why I said many times that my ex gf 10” jbl on her suspended floor shook the couch more than ported 18s on my slab.


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post #65 of 127 Old 10-30-2018, 04:11 PM
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Dual 2400ULF's vs (3) XTZ 3x12's vs (3) FV18's

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Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
Then you've got to listen to the 10Hz tuned ported subs...


Yeah no match there I’m sure. MKe no mistake about it, I’d love a 2400 or 4000


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post #66 of 127 Old 10-30-2018, 04:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
I wish that I had a good explanation, but I'm afraid that one is above my pay grade. There are too many anecdotal reports, though, to dismiss the idea that Rythmik subs have a little different sound signature compared to most other subs. Distortion seems unlikely since it doesn't seem to be volume-related, and none of the subwoofers should be distorting at lower volume levels. Is it the servo mechanism? I don't know.

I do know that different drivers, playing in our more normal hearing range, can have sound characteristics that could generally be described as warmer or brighter, with brightness and clarity having a relationship. And, I'm not sure that I have heard very good explanations for those differences either.

It does seem to me that Rythmik subwoofers are a little different in this regard from SVS, and PSA, and JTR, and XTZ subwoofers. Some people would undoubtedly hear subtle differences among those subwoofers as well, if they listened carefully, but I believe that they would sound more alike than not, in comparison to Rythmik subwoofers. That's what I was getting at earlier.

Regards,
Mike


One more term I would attribute to the rythmik I am noticing is smoothness. Like butter.


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post #67 of 127 Old 10-30-2018, 04:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toddct View Post
Dang, you guys have been busy........doesn't anyone work around here! Since I have a few minutes to kill before I leave I thought I'd leave a quick opinion/comments.



Having been in Ray's sealed suspended wood floor compared to my open wood floor I would be more apt to choose the FV18 since your room is small. Conversely, if you plan to have a larger more open room in the future, then the 2400 all the way. With the caveat that I don't know what either would sound like on concrete. If concrete makes a big difference for TR and you are looking for low bass and low TR then the 2400 wins in my opinion.



And honestly, I think you would be happy with 2 of either but far be it for me to dissuade you from 3. We like to spend each others money on this forum!



Serious question though, in a small room like his, if he were to buy 3, won't the TR go down theoretically? More subs = less work? @tvuong @chucky7 @imureh @mthomas47



As others have said, and I can't stress this enough............reach out to some local owners and see if they will let you demo! Even better is to audition in your room. That is the only sure fire way of knowing what you like and how much you need/want.



To me, I think the FV18, FV25, 2400 and 2400ulf are all end game ported subs....you can't go wrong with any of them. But, they will sound and act slightly different in your room. Which is why, I love the 2400ulf for my room and I love the FV18 for Ray's room.



Todd


Marc did mention that the person who has 3 ulfs seemed to have less mid bass but did not mention about TR. I would not think the TR would be less, it would just be more evenly distributed. But what do I know.


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post #68 of 127 Old 10-30-2018, 04:30 PM - Thread Starter
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Was busy at work! I'm free now and going to start catching up. This looks very interesting, thanks everyone!
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post #69 of 127 Old 10-30-2018, 04:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
Just think about it. You didn't even like 1 JTR Cap 1400 or Cap 2400ULF in your room and Geo is upgrading from a XTZ 3X12 (basically a Cap 1400) plus a PSA V1801 in a room smaller than yours... That should tell you something about what he needs for his room on a concrete slab...
Very good point, it's obvious now that Ray and I have different tastes in bass. I'll touch on that later tho.
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post #70 of 127 Old 10-30-2018, 04:38 PM
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Originally Posted by GeoJustGeo View Post
Very good point, it's obvious now that Ray and I have different tastes in bass. I'll touch on that later tho.


I don’t think so. Read the posts and then we can chat.


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post #71 of 127 Old 10-30-2018, 04:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by imureh View Post
I think the best way to describe it is that the FV18 in my room sound like what the Cap 2400 sound in Todd's room. Again I think a lot is room dependent so can't say for sure how the sound will present itself in Geo's room. I can tell you this (and I hope Todd does not kill me for saying it) that had the paper cone been out when Todd was shopping he would have saved the money and went with them, that should tell you how that one sub sounded in his room. We all know the Cap 2400 is a killer sub but want to note that at half the price the FV18 is a real deal. If you compared strictly on output and raw power the JTR and pure TR, the JTR will win every time but when you consider everything else including depth, TR, output and tuning options, price, etc, the FV18 must be looked at
Another great point!
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post #72 of 127 Old 10-30-2018, 04:48 PM
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Originally Posted by GeoJustGeo View Post
Another great point!


Subwoofers are like ice cream, there’s not one best flavor and no matter what flavor you choose, it’s still YUMMY!

You can either listen to the others explain which flavor they like the best, or you can sample four or five different flavors and decide for yourself :-)








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post #73 of 127 Old 10-30-2018, 04:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Let's see if we can dispose of the XTZ 3X12, more-or-less permanently, as an option here. I think it's an excellent subwoofer, but I believe that Geo is looking for something special. If we compare the SPL in very low-frequencies, there just isn't any comparison between the Cap 2400 ULF and the 3X12. Normally, in a small room, that difference wouldn't be as important. But, what if the subs end-up in a larger room, as I believe they inevitably will?

According to Data-Bass, the 3X12 didn't pass at 10Hz, where the 2400 ULF produced 101.8db. Two 2400's would produce 107.8db, before room gain. At 12.5Hz the difference is a whopping 9db. By 16Hz, the difference subsides to a still very significant 3db. A third subwoofer will only add 3db, so three 3X12's could equal two 2400 ULF's at 16Hz, but not below that frequency. For someone who would consider Cap 4000's, if he could make them fit, it isn't a close call.
Scott Sterling blocks the 3x12 from reaching the goal! "He's a defensive angel!!" -Volleyball video

Well Mike that does help narrow things down lol thanks.
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post #74 of 127 Old 10-30-2018, 05:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
I don’t think Geo is accustomed to svs, psa, xtz sound. It seems every time he upgrades, he ended up liking the last sub. Rythmik subs, as Imureh found out, sound different than other subs he had heard.
I agree I have liked every subwoofer I've had. If I had to guess of a reason why, I think it would be because as my sub purchasing progressed, so did my knowledge from reading this forum. Therefore the SVS PB12-NSD was great for me at the time because it was the best sub I had ever heard, AND, I didn't know ANYTHING about hz, or decibels, or low-frequency, or reference, or FR, or TR...etc etc.

If I were to get that same pb12-nsd sub again now, no, theres no way it would meet my needs.

There's a reason we warn ppl to buy their subs and stay off these forums lol.
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post #75 of 127 Old 10-30-2018, 05:06 PM
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So do you believe it would be a smarter choice to have the 3 3x12s? Would it be in the same boat as getting the 2400ulfs? Or would the 2400ulfs be better all together ?


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It's hard to say..... 3 subs vs 2 will have the potential for a smoother response, and Geo has a good handle on REW to take advantage of that. But the 2400ULF is IMHO is a much "better" sub. It would take 3 of the 3x12's to match a single 2400ULF at 12.5hz and I'm guessing it'd take like 8 of the 3x12's to match a single 2400ULF at 10hz
The new Rythmik FV18 would also be a killer in that room (or any room)


If Geo is getting a REALLY good deal on the XTZ's,3 of them should be PLENTY in 99% of rooms. I like the idea of 2 upfront and 1 nearfield too.


But for a "no-doubts-I-want-reference-level-down-to-single-digits" system, I would 100% recommend dual JTR 2400ULF and 2400 or the Rythmik FV25HP or FV18



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post #76 of 127 Old 10-30-2018, 05:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Don’t rule out sealed subs. My new subs rock my place , on concrete, in a way my ported subs never did. Physics or no physics.
True, we have had very similar setups. A big sub and the exact smaller sub (v18) both on concrete.
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post #77 of 127 Old 10-30-2018, 05:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ramona _flowers View Post
I can see why Geo refers to you as Scott Sterling lol. You give some great answers!
I like that you mention the fact that he could and most likely will change rooms in the future . That’s where I see things from. These are obviously not my purchases but i do agree that sticking with the 3x12s aren’t in his best interest . I’m sure he knows that too lol. With your comment ,I’m even more certain that he should get rid of them as an option all together .
I’ll let him comment more , I don’t wanna hijack his post lol
Yeah my mind is pretty much made up by now about the 3x12 being removed. I think that if ULF wasn't as important, this option would be a great contender for the budget.
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post #78 of 127 Old 10-30-2018, 05:28 PM
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Originally Posted by imureh View Post
I think the best way to describe it is that the FV18 in my room sound like what the Cap 2400 sound in Todd's room. Again I think a lot is room dependent so can't say for sure how the sound will present itself in Geo's room. I can tell you this (and I hope Todd does not kill me for saying it) that had the paper cone been out when Todd was shopping he would have saved the money and went with them, that should tell you how that one sub sounded in his room. We all know the Cap 2400 is a killer sub but want to note that at half the price the FV18 is a real deal. If you compared strictly on output and raw power the JTR and pure TR, the JTR will win every time but when you consider everything else including depth, TR, output and tuning options, price, etc, the FV18 must be looked at
Yes, I get that the FV18 sounds the best in your room on suspended floor. Too bad Geo's room is on concrete. I have also heard FV18 alum cone in an huge room on concrete. It did not beat out even the Cap 118HT because the TR is just weak sauce... Thus, gave rise to the paper cone driver.

When everything else is equal, Rythmik is going to be cheaper than JTR because Rythmik is made in China and JTR is made in USA.

Tell me again why you didn't want to run compression sweeps on the FV18 until you see actual compressions?

Replacing the XTZ 3X12 and the PSA V1801 with the 2 FV18s is more of a lateral move. Doing so nets what?... 3dB at 12Hz? How is that worthwhile in your book?

How would the 2400/2400ULF lose in depth (I assume you meant extension)?

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post #79 of 127 Old 10-30-2018, 05:34 PM
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Dual 2400ULF's vs (3) XTZ 3x12's vs (3) FV18's

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Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
Yes, I get that the FV18 sounds the best in your room on suspended floor. Too bad Geo's room is on concrete. I have also heard FV18 alum cone in an huge room on concrete. It did not beat out even the Cap 118HT because the TR is just weak sauce... Thus, gave rise to the paper cone driver.

When everything else is equal, Rythmik is going to be cheaper than JTR because Rythmik is made in China and JTR is made in USA.

Tell me again why you didn't want to run compression sweeps on the FV18 until you see actual compressions?

Replacing the XTZ 3X12 and the PSA V1801 with the 2 FV18s is more of a lateral move. Doing so nets what?... 3dB at 12Hz? How is that worthwhile in your book?

How would the 2400/2400ULF lose in depth (I assume you meant extension)?


I don’t want to derail this thread by making a JTR vs Rythmik thread. I didn’t run compression sweeps on any of the subs till the max including the JTR as I did not technically own any of them at that point. I will do so when Enrico is here to help me dial them in to the dot. When I said depth I did not say the JTR did not have it. I am not here defending any brand. I am telling the facts. They are both great subs. In an open room I would go dual cap 2400 ULF as I have said. In a closed space the FV18 would be my choice with the added benefit of saving a whole lot of money. You are also now cooking up numbers. I am telling what we all heard in an open room running the same content. The JTR has the edge in an open room but at a hefty premium


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Ice cream flavors guys, everyone has their own preference


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Serious question though, in a small room like his, if he were to buy 3, won't the TR go down theoretically? More subs = less work?
Would this be due to wave lengths?
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post #82 of 127 Old 10-30-2018, 05:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by imureh View Post
Marc did mention that the person who has 3 ulfs seemed to have less mid bass but did not mention about TR.
Wouldn't that be easier to fix with placement or house curves?
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post #83 of 127 Old 10-30-2018, 05:52 PM
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Wouldn't that be easier to fix with placement or house curves?


You know if it could be addressed Marc would have done it


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Quote:
Originally Posted by jamiebosco View Post
3 subs vs 2 will have the potential for a smoother response, and Geo has a good handle on REW to take advantage of that. But the 2400ULF is IMHO is a much "better" sub. It would take 3 of the 3x12's to match a single 2400ULF at 12.5hz and I'm guessing it'd take like 8 of the 3x12's to match a single 2400ULF at 10hz.

Yeah that's why the 3x12 got taken out of the equation. They are great subs, and actually I feel that for the $1,499 price i paid for mine, there isnt a better sub below $1,500. But, for the direction I'm heading in, these don't cut it.
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post #85 of 127 Old 10-30-2018, 06:14 PM
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No disrespect to anyone here but I think Imureh, Toddct and Marc Alexander (If he shows up) have more qualifications in answering the 2400ulf and FV18 paper driver question than anyone. Imureh and Toddct basically say the same thing if one reads their post. Again, Geo’s choice is between 2 Jtr 2400ulf’s and 3 FV18’s. 3 FV18’s after multi subs discount are more than $500 cheaper than 2 2400ULF’s if my math is right. That is a tremendous value on the FV18 if you ask me (no bias here). That $500 saving is more than enough to add a single seat crowson tranducer the OP is looking to add.
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post #86 of 127 Old 10-30-2018, 06:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GeoJustGeo View Post
Would this be due to wave lengths?
Purely guessing at this point which is why I tagged the others to chime in. My thought is that the more subs you have means less work for the drive, more headroom if you will. If each driver has less work.....maybe less TR? Again, really just asking a question for others with more experience.

I've come to realize that I really enjoy good low base response and low TR. The 2400-10ulf gives me that in spades along with being punchy, articulate and fairly precise. The 2400, I believe, still has pretty low distortion but not as low as the fv18 or the fv25 but for my preference and room.....it's like the goldilocks zone. Mix in a little controlled violence and chaos and you've got the 2400. I don't want to put words into @tvuong mouth but I think he was equally impressed with the 2400 playing music as movies. I still owe @tvuong a relisten when he is in town as I had a defective amp when he was here.

For me, I got lucky in choosing the best sub for my preference and my room for movies and giving up very little if anything in the music arena.

Todd
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post #87 of 127 Old 10-30-2018, 07:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Now that I've had time to catch up and learn and think about all this, I'll share some new thoughts.

First is budget. Budget is a thing for me. I guess it must've come off like it wasn't but it is. The reason I chose those 3 options with the quantities that i did is because that's what would work great for my budget.
If I mentioned the cap 4000 is because that's a dream sub that I think many of us would love to own, but the size and price for duals is huge. If I got 1 now I wouldn't get another for a long time, and that's not something I wanna do. And the size is killer for my current setup.

Concrete vs Suspended. Not many houses here have suspended, unless you're talking a 2nd floor and I don't see me setting up a theater room on a 2nd floor anytime soon, like at all. So I have to plan for concrete. I have heard my old Sony sealed sub on suspended watching Jurassic Park and I can say without a doubt it's the most that sub had ever shown off for me. Also like David mentioned about suspended, I have gone over to some friends' apartments that are on a 2nd floor and have a small sub but the bass coming out of it was impressive. It took me months to figure out why. So I know this is a thing.

Room size. There's an equal chance that I'd be moving to a bigger room just as there is a smaller room. However, I don't think I will ever setup this system in a room smaller than my last, which was 10x10.

My bass preference. Because my preference has changed due to trying diff subs and in diff rooms, and from learning from this forum, I can't say that I wouldn't like sealed, but I can say it would be the more expensive route that I don't want to take.

As for the signature of the FV18 paper cone, it honestly sounds interesting. At the same time I might find it to be underwhelming for what I'm looking for. However, I'm open to the idea of trying a servo. The way Ray and everyone else describes it makes me want to experience what clarity and tighter bass feels like. I wish there were some databass numbers on the new FV18 to help this discussion, even tho I'm aware the numbers don't paint the whole picture. Then there's the price difference. It is about $1,300 cheaper after shipping for just 1 FV18 compared to 1 2400ulf.

I guess there's a premium to pay to own 2 subs that are stronger than 3.

You guys are right, experiencing these subs in person is the best route but it's not an easy one.

I have some more thinking to do....
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post #88 of 127 Old 10-30-2018, 07:06 PM
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Dual 2400ULF's vs (3) XTZ 3x12's vs (3) FV18's

Quote:
Originally Posted by GeoJustGeo View Post
Now that I've had time to catch up and learn and think about all this, I'll share some new thoughts.



First is budget. Budget is a thing for me. I guess it must've come off like it wasn't but it is. The reason I chose those 3 options with the quantities that i did is because that's what would work great for my budget.

If I mentioned the cap 4000 is because that's a dream sub that I think many of us would love to own, but the size and price for duals is huge. If I got 1 now I wouldn't get another for a long time, and that's not something I wanna do. And the size is killer for my current setup.



Concrete vs Suspended. Not many houses here have suspended, unless you're talking a 2nd floor and I don't see me setting up a theater room on a 2nd floor anytime soon, like at all. So I have to plan for concrete. I have heard my old Sony sealed sub on suspended watching Jurassic Park and I can say without a doubt it's the most that sub had ever shown off for me. Also like David mentioned about suspended, I have gone over to some friends' apartments that are on a 2nd floor and have a small sub but the bass coming out of it was impressive. It took me months to figure out why. So I know this is a thing.



Room size. There's an equal chance that I'd be moving to a bigger room just as there is a smaller room. However, I don't think I will ever setup this system in a room smaller than my last, which was 10x10.



My bass preference. Because my preference has changed due to trying diff subs and in diff rooms, and from learning from this forum, I can't say that I wouldn't like sealed, but I can say it would be the more expensive route that I don't want to take.



As for the signature of the FV18 paper cone, it honestly sounds interesting. At the same time I might find it to be underwhelming for what I'm looking for. However, I'm open to the idea of trying a servo. The way Ray and everyone else describes it makes me want to experience what clarity and tighter bass feels like. I wish there were some databass numbers on the new FV18 to help this discussion, even tho I'm aware the numbers don't paint the whole picture. Then there's the price difference. It is about $1,300 cheaper after shipping for just 1 FV18 compared to 1 2400ulf.



I guess there's a premium to pay to own 2 subs that are stronger than 3.



You guys are right, experiencing these subs in person is the best route but it's not an easy one.



I have some more thinking to do....


Data-bass has numbers for the FV18 with aluminum driver that can be used as a proxy. You can then ask @Rythmik and @enricoclaudio the differences between the one tested and the paper cone for any particular frequencies you are interested in.


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Subwoofers: Dual Rythmik FV18s Rev2 with Paper cone, BOSS Platform mini riser
Speakers: PSA MTM-210 L/C/R - Klipsch 250S Surrounds, PSA MT 110sr Rear Surrounds, 4 x SVS Prime Elevation for Atmos
Video: Epson PowerLite Home Cinema 6500 UB; Room: 2100 cuft sealed on suspended floor
Receiver & Players: Denon X4400H, Oppo UDP-203, Roku Ultra. Apple TV, Minidsp 2X4 HD
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post #89 of 127 Old 10-30-2018, 07:21 PM
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I wish I believed that selecting a subwoofer, or a speaker, or a car, or a flavor of ice cream were as simple as just taking a poll of several people who have tried both models or flavors. Different rooms/objectives/tastes will inevitably produce different selections.

I believe that three FV18's would be outstanding for most people in a much larger room than Geo's, and I wouldn't hesitate to recommend them. I have already recommended them to several people. But, when I do, I am paying careful attention to what they have now, because that helps to establish a kind of baseline for what they are used to, and for what they may be looking for.

And, then I pay attention to what they are saying about the pluses and minuses of their existing subs. Are they looking for more clarity for music; more low-bass growl and TR for movies? What is it about their existing subs that isn't quite good enough, or strong enough? I just can't see this as a one-size-fits-all solution, where if we know someone's room size, we can tell him which subwoofer to buy.

I think that people may sometimes be a little hung-up on the performance for price issue. That is one of PSA's claims to fame, and I think it is a legitimate one. But, that's another one-size-fits all approach. Not everyone uses that kind of arithmetic approach to purchasing subwoofers, or other things for that matter. Sometimes, people just want what they want. And, someone who wishes that he could accommodate a pair of much more expensive Cap 4000 ULF's, in his room, doesn't seem like a good candidate for that kind of calculation.

I'm also not at all sure about the three is better than two approach. I think that three subs, long-term may very well be better than two, although that depends somewhat on the specific room. Personally, I really like having four subwoofers. But, I have been convinced for quite a while now, that we had better make sure that we are getting the right subs to start with, and then just adding additional multiples of those subs, as the circumstances require and the budget allows, rather than buying multiples of a different sub initially, because they are less expensive.

Depending to some extent on how I read the individual in question, I will usually recommend buying the most powerful single sub, or pair, that someone is honestly considering, or can afford. And then, he can always add to them when and if it is desirable to do so. I do that because we so often see people upgrading for MOAR. Does anyone know anyone on the forum who might do something like that?

Who's to say that if Geo buys a pair of Cap 2400's now, that he won't move to a larger place two years from now, and add another Cap 2400, or even a Cap 4000? I believe that Jeff deliberately made the port tunes on the various low-bass models the same to facilitate that kind of pairing. So, long-term, it may not come down to whether three is better than two, but whether the buyer started with the right two to begin with.

Ultimately, I don't think that anyone can predict what Geo and Ramona will like best, based on our own experiences and preferences. We have to take our cues from what they have now, and from what they say they like and want more of. In an ideal world, Geo would be able to hear both finalists in his own room. And perhaps he will be willing to make that financial investment, as Ray did. Unfortunately, I don't think that the listening experience would be comparable if he auditioned both subs in a room with a suspended wood floor. I really do think that concrete makes that much difference with respect to low-bass TR.

In the absence of his ability to test them side-by-side, I'm not going to recommend based on cost, or on the basis of how three is better than two. I'm going to try to take my cues from what I believe are Geo's actual objectives and preferences and try to be supportive of those. I may guess wrong, but that's my goal. And, I am going to default to the best advice I know, which is to start with the most powerful subwoofer the buyer is considering. In this case, "powerful" would need to include both low-frequency SPL, and low-frequency TR, due to the concrete floor and due to Geo's personal preferences. And, when those two factors are taken, in conjunction, I don't really think that it's a close call.

But, that's simply one opinion based on how I read Geo, not on my own personal goals or opinions of the subwoofers. And, there is nothing whatsoever that says that I am reading Geo correctly, or making the right recommendation!

Regards,
Mike


Edit: Geo, I saw your post above, where you mention cost, after I had already written this long post, but I don't think I will change anything. Just feel free to disregard anything which isn't applicable to your goals or preferences.

GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.

Last edited by mthomas47; 10-30-2018 at 07:24 PM.
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post #90 of 127 Old 10-30-2018, 07:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imureh View Post
Data-bass has numbers for the FV18 with aluminum driver that can be used as a proxy. You can then ask @Rythmik and @enricoclaudio the differences between the one tested and the paper cone for any particular frequencies you are interested in.


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Brian said the paper driver FV18 is +3db >40hz as compared to the Aluminum FV18 tested on data-bass. What we don’t know is the distortion levels at max burst. I think the paper FV18 probably has higher distortion levels which could be a good thing for some.
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