PB-4000 Am I doing something wrong? - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 272 Old 11-29-2018, 06:43 AM
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Thanks yes you don't seem to be sitting in a null you could try moving the sub to the right of the TV/console but doing a simple sub crawl test can help. This is not a large room and you are not sitting in a null so my gut tells me it is something else. I agree with you that you should be noticing a big improvement over your last sub so something seems off.
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post #32 of 272 Old 11-29-2018, 07:08 AM
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reset the sub to the factory defaults turn the gain down on the sub to -25 and re run audessey again. i think the problem is you have all the room gain and peq stuff on.
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post #33 of 272 Old 11-29-2018, 07:20 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ack_bk View Post
Thanks yes you don't seem to be sitting in a null you could try moving the sub to the right of the TV/console but doing a simple sub crawl test can help. This is not a large room and you are not sitting in a null so my gut tells me it is something else. I agree with you that you should be noticing a big improvement over your last sub so something seems off.
Thanks, I will give that a try tonight.

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reset the sub to the factory defaults turn the gain down on the sub to -25 and re run audessey again. i think the problem is you have all the room gain and peq stuff on.

I reset everything before my latest Audyssey run. When I run Audyssey, I do a sub-level match or whatever the correct name is. Audyssey has me turn down the gain on the subwoofer itself until I get to 75db. This has been putting me around a consistent -22 to -20 gain. The PEQ setting was off.
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post #34 of 272 Old 11-29-2018, 07:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pfar54 View Post
Thanks, I will give that a try tonight.

I reset everything before my latest Audyssey run. When I run Audyssey, I do a sub-level match or whatever the correct name is. Audyssey has me turn down the gain on the subwoofer itself until I get to 75db. This has been putting me around a consistent -22 to -20 gain. The PEQ setting was off.
Audyssey job is always to set for proper calibration level, so this is normal. While your gain on the sub/s give you a results of -22 to -20. I would increase the gain on the sub/s. Until you reach around -5, and rerun Audyssey

This is why you have the option, to increase the sub/s level after calibration, on your AVR.
Just raise-it by 3dB (after calibration), and go from there, to increase or lower the sub level, from your AVR.
For your own sound preference, when it come to lower sound from a single sub, or multiple ones.


Ray

Last edited by darthray; 11-29-2018 at 07:37 AM.
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post #35 of 272 Old 11-29-2018, 07:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darthray View Post
Audyssey job is always to set for proper calibration level, so this is normal. While your gain on the sub/s give you a results of -22 to -20. I would increase the gain on the sub/s. Until you reach around -5, and rerun Audyssey

This is why you have the option, to increase the sub/s level after calibration, on your AVR.
Just raise-it by 3dB (after calibration), and go from there, to increase or lower the sub level, from your AVR.
For your own sound preference, when it come to lower sound from a single sub, or multiple ones.


Ray
Right, I understand this. I increased the gain on my sub - after calibration to 0 (highest). The sub is still not as loud as my old.
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post #36 of 272 Old 11-29-2018, 10:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pfar54 View Post
Right, I understand this. I increased the gain on my sub - after calibration to 0 (highest). The sub is still not as loud as my old.
I don't think I've seen this mentioned yet, but have you tried playing individual test tones/bass sweeps through an app or YouTube and confirmed that indeed there's very little output? Have you tried playing a familiar movie/album with lots of deep bass? You said you have a sound meter. With it and test tones you can verify how loud you sub is playing at different levels. ,



Regardless of proper sub crawl, if you move around your room you should be able to get to a spot where the bass sounds louder/better. This is only to confirm that you're not getting bass anywhere in your room. Undistorted bass certainly doesn't equal indaudible bass.


Reports of SVS subs not being "loud enough" are very common around here. Some claim that they fixed their issue by following the the advise of members here, while others were never satisfied with the sound; some others concluded there was something wrong with the amp. You should call SVS and ask for guidance. They can help you to troubleshoot the possible issue, and offer alternatives.
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post #37 of 272 Old 11-29-2018, 11:15 AM
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Not had any experience w/ the PB-4000 but I would like to offer a generic troubleshooting tip. I find that the KISS (Keep It Simple, Stupid) method works best sometimes. Try hooking it up to a 2.1 channel setup if you have one available to keep all the processing out of the equation. If it sounds fine then the problem will likely be in AVR settings. If it still doesn't sound right maybe it's time to call SVS.
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post #38 of 272 Old 11-29-2018, 02:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pfar54 View Post
Right, I understand this. I increased the gain on my sub - after calibration to 0 (highest). The sub is still not as loud as my old.
Turn audyssey off, make sure dynamic compression is off. Play something in stereo (2.1) see how it sounds. If you can't get it figured out you should just send the sub back. Maybe try the pc4000 since it's down firing like your old sub.

You could also try a psa V1510DF sub.
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post #39 of 272 Old 11-29-2018, 02:33 PM
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did op say sub gain was max? if its max and avr is setting trim level at 0 or positive numbers the sub has to be broken. if I read this wrong, op set the gain around halfway/12 oclock
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post #40 of 272 Old 11-29-2018, 03:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AmerCa View Post
I don't think I've seen this mentioned yet, but have you tried playing individual test tones/bass sweeps through an app or YouTube and confirmed that indeed there's very little output? Have you tried playing a familiar movie/album with lots of deep bass? You said you have a sound meter. With it and test tones you can verify how loud you sub is playing at different levels. ,



Regardless of proper sub crawl, if you move around your room you should be able to get to a spot where the bass sounds louder/better. This is only to confirm that you're not getting bass anywhere in your room. Undistorted bass certainly doesn't equal indaudible bass.


Reports of SVS subs not being "loud enough" are very common around here. Some claim that they fixed their issue by following the the advise of members here, while others were never satisfied with the sound; some others concluded there was something wrong with the amp. You should call SVS and ask for guidance. They can help you to troubleshoot the possible issue, and offer alternatives.

Doing the Youtube tests now. I found a video that goes from 2000hz - 1hz. I don't have the spl meter yet. Just ordered it from Amazon today; it should be here Saturday.

I think the main issue is that from around 50-80hz the sub's performance is very low - at least in it being louder. Under 40 hz it starts to sound pretty good.

video:

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post #41 of 272 Old 11-29-2018, 04:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pfar54 View Post
Right, I understand this. I increased the gain on my sub - after calibration to 0 (highest). The sub is still not as loud as my old.
Quote:
Originally Posted by torii View Post
did op say sub gain was max? if its max and avr is setting trim level at 0 or positive numbers the sub has to be broken. if I read this wrong, op set the gain around halfway/12 oclock

This the way, I also read this. A sub should never be set to the max level for the gain.
With a setting around, 12 o'clock. The calibration level should be near 0 , or near that area.
If the level is still around -20 on the AVR reading, after calibration. It has to be a placement problem.

And maybe, coming from a lesser sub. That might have been boosted at the mid frequencies. To make the previous sub, sound more impressive,"I think the main issue is that from around 50-80hz the sub's performance is very low with this one been".
Compare to a more flat response from his new sub, and might not be use to flat response bass.


Ray

Last edited by darthray; 11-29-2018 at 04:39 PM.
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post #42 of 272 Old 11-29-2018, 04:29 PM
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^^^^^
You can try an SPL app on your phone in the meantime, as well as a test tone generator app. Or you can also look for individual test tones in your tube or the web.

If there's healthy output below 40hz, (and above 80hz) maybe you're dealing with a very weird and big null in your room in the 50-80hz range. Individual test tones help to better indentify the issue. However, with the SPL meter you ordered you could use the free software REW, to analyze more in depth your room frequency response. This software will be an invaluable tool in the future, even if you don't want/can't learn it right away.

SLP apps are no substitute for a real, calibrated one, but are good enough to give you an idea of the loudness in your room. The fact that there's good output below 40hz is a good sign. Try moving around your room while testing bass tones and see if there's are spots where the bass sounds louder/cleaner. If that's the case, it's just a matter of relocating your sub.
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post #43 of 272 Old 11-29-2018, 04:44 PM
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[QUOTE=AmerCa;57188772]^^^^^
You can try an SPL app on your phone in the meantime, as well as a test tone generator app. Or you can also look for individual test tones in your tube or the web.

If there's healthy output below 40hz, (and above 80hz) maybe you're dealing with a very weird and big null in your room in the 50-80hz range. Individual test tones help to better indentify the issue. However, with the SPL meter you ordered you could use the free software REW, to analyze more in depth your room frequency response. This software will be an invaluable tool in the future, even if you don't want/can't learn it right away.

SLP apps are no substitute for a real, calibrated one, but are good enough to give you an idea of the loudness in your room. The fact that there's good output below 40hz is a good sign. Try moving around your room while testing bass tones and see if there's are spots where the bass sounds louder/cleaner. If that's the case, it's just a matter of relocating your sub.[/QUOTE]


+1


Ray
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post #44 of 272 Old 11-29-2018, 04:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AmerCa View Post
I don't think I've seen this mentioned yet, but have you tried playing individual test tones/bass sweeps through an app or YouTube and confirmed that indeed there's very little output? Have you tried playing a familiar movie/album with lots of deep bass? You said you have a sound meter. With it and test tones you can verify how loud you sub is playing at different levels. ,



Regardless of proper sub crawl, if you move around your room you should be able to get to a spot where the bass sounds louder/better. This is only to confirm that you're not getting bass anywhere in your room. Undistorted bass certainly doesn't equal indaudible bass.


Reports of SVS subs not being "loud enough" are very common around here. Some claim that they fixed their issue by following the the advise of members here, while others were never satisfied with the sound; some others concluded there was something wrong with the amp. You should call SVS and ask for guidance. They can help you to troubleshoot the possible issue, and offer alternatives.
Quote:
Originally Posted by darthray View Post
This the way, I also read this. A sub should never be set to the max level for the gain.
With a setting around, 12 o'clock. The calibration level should be near 0 , or near that area.
If the level is still around -20 on the AVR reading, after calibration. It has to be a placement problem.

And maybe, coming from a lesser sub. That might have been boosted at the mid frequencies. To make the previous sub, sound more impressive,"I think the main issue is that from around 50-80hz the sub's performance is very low with this one been".
Compare to a more flat response from his new sub, and might not be use to flat response bass.


Ray
Quote:
Originally Posted by AmerCa View Post
^^^^^
You can try an SPL app on your phone in the meantime, as well as a test tone generator app. Or you can also look for individual test tones in your tube or the web.

If there's healthy output below 40hz, (and above 80hz) maybe you're dealing with a very weird and big null in your room in the 50-80hz range. Individual test tones help to better indentify the issue. However, with the SPL meter you ordered you could use the free software REW, to analyze more in depth your room frequency response. This software will be an invaluable tool in the future, even if you don't want/can't learn it right away.

SLP apps are no substitute for a real, calibrated one, but are good enough to give you an idea of the loudness in your room. The fact that there's good output below 40hz is a good sign. Try moving around your room while testing bass tones and see if there's are spots where the bass sounds louder/cleaner. If that's the case, it's just a matter of relocating your sub.

The level on my receiver is at 0 and was so after the calibration. During the calibration, my sub was set at -22 volume (this is the gain right?).
The levels go from -60 to 0. Right now it is at 0 because the level of bass coming out is essentially nothing or very close to it at -20.

So I turned the volume on my sub to -5. I then listened to two videos to measure the SPL. The videos I used was the one in my last post with the frequency range and then the one below. For now, I used the SPL app tester.

Both videos the sub got to 88db.

BTW my small 6" logictech sub had an 89db reading. It sounded better in the higher frequencies too.


Any one want to test this on their sub and see what they get? Is an 88db number in the correct range or is it lower than what it should be?
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post #45 of 272 Old 11-29-2018, 05:34 PM
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you doing something very wrong....

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post #46 of 272 Old 11-29-2018, 05:47 PM
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^^^^^

It seems you're getting things a little confused.

1. As it has already been pointed out, disable any extra processing done by both the AVR and sub (no DEQ, PEQ, etc.). You said you already did it.

2. The volume on the sub is usually referred to as "gain". Sub volume through the AVR is called "sub trim".

3. Pick a sub gain level, and run calibration. Check what sub trim your AVR puts out. If it's too low (-22 is a good example), or it's too high (trim in the positives), raise the gain, until the AVR displays a sub trim somewhere between [-12, -8]. That range is recommended. At this point you're not looking at your AVR master volume (MV).

4. Now you play test tones, and with your SPL app/meter check the output. It's at this point when you use the MV to check the SPL levels at different volumes. If the output between 50-80hz is considerably lower than frequencies below or above, you might be dealing with a big null. Move around the room to check the output improves in that range, while verifying the output below and above that range.

5. The lower the frequency the harder will be for the phone mic to pick it up, but you should be able to judge by ear how loud it is. Your SPL meter will be more accurate in the lower range.

Then you can start to talk about how your sub is performing. "Lesser" subs, due to distortion, can measure louder at specific frequencies, but your new sub output shoud be definitely leagues above your older sub, regardless if it sounds cleaner or not.

Report back your findings.

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post #47 of 272 Old 11-29-2018, 05:54 PM
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^^^^^^

I just wanted to add, take your time while doing this. Sometimes it can be a bit stressful when you're trying to get things right as quick as possible. Take your time to do things right, and come back when you're ready.
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post #48 of 272 Old 11-29-2018, 06:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AmerCa View Post
^^^^^

It seems you're getting things a little confused.

1. As it has already been pointed out, disable any extra processing done by both the AVR and sub (no DEQ, PEQ, etc.). You said you already did it.

2. The volume on the sub is usually referred to as "gain". Sub volume through the AVR is called "sub trim".

3. Pick a sub gain level, and run calibration. Check what sub trim your AVR puts out. If it's too low (-22 is a good example), or it's too high (trim in the positives), raise the gain, until the AVR displays a sub trim somewhere between [-12, -8]. That range is recommended. At this point you're not looking at your AVR master volume (MV).

4. Now you play test tones, and with your SPL app/meter check the output. It's at this point when you use the MV to check the SPL levels at different volumes. If the output between 50-80hz is considerably lower than frequencies below or above, you might be dealing with a big null. Move around the room to check the output improves in that range, while verifying the output below and above that range.

5. The lower the frequency the harder will be for the phone mic to pick it up, but you should be able to judge by ear how loud it is. Your SPL meter will be more accurate in the lower range.

Then you can start to talk about how your sub is performing. "Lesser" subs, due to distortion, can measure louder at specific frequencies, but your new sub output shoud be definitely leagues above your older sub, regardless if it sounds cleaner or not.

Report back your findings.
For #3 on your list. When running Audyssey, I use sub level matching to get the sub to 75 dB. This has been consistently putting the sub gain to -22. After I ran Audyssey last time it set the test tone to -4 dB. Is this the sub trim or is the subwoofer level adjustment the trim? This is off, so presumably at 0.
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post #49 of 272 Old 11-29-2018, 06:39 PM
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Agree with the above. Just start from scratch and take your time.
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post #50 of 272 Old 11-29-2018, 06:42 PM
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if you cant set the sub gain low enough to get audyssey to set trim level from -6 thru -11...you best call a friend over to help ya.

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once you get audyssey set right you can adjust the sub gains and avr sub trim as high as you feel is right.

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post #52 of 272 Old 11-29-2018, 07:51 PM
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I feel bad for you man, I have a SB12 coming and I would be devastated if it was so underwhelming, especially that monster. I heard the sb1000 in an audio shop earlier this year and I was blown away by the output. On top od that I was in another huge room and the sub was in a small room open to the rest of the store. I was in disbelief. I had them play me the $900 15" Klipsch and idk, I thought the sb1000 sounded better but therr were too many variables to saya objectively.

Having said all of that, I will trade you this BNIB SVS SB12 for that pb4000, out of the kindness of my heart 😋

I hope you get things figured out though, every bit of advice I might have has been said already.

If i were you I would personally go for a Rythmik 18" or dual 15, I cannot imagine that a 13.5 could outperform them, and you would save money.
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post #53 of 272 Old 11-29-2018, 08:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pfar54 View Post
For #3 on your list. When running Audyssey, I use sub level matching to get the sub to 75 dB. This has been consistently putting the sub gain to -22. After I ran Audyssey last time it set the test tone to -4 dB. Is this the sub trim or is the subwoofer level adjustment the trim? This is off, so presumably at 0.
I'm not sure I follow you.

What gain is the sub at pre running Audyssey? What sub trim displays the AVR after? Audyssey is always going to try to set all speakers at 75db. Not sure why you say you're level matching yourself.

Procedure is straightforward: pick sub gain, run calibration, check AVR sub trim. Is trim between [-12, -8]? Raise or lower sub gain, repeat.

The test tones I'm referring to are the ones you downloaded/generated/streamed to run through your sub. Like torii said, once you have your trim level right, then you can start adding some bass boost, either via sub gain or sub trim. But you need to verify first there's no issue with your sub output.

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post #54 of 272 Old 11-29-2018, 08:16 PM - Thread Starter
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I 100% want to do this right. I am rushing it in no way. I just figured the sub would blow be away right after turning it on and then tuning it would make it even better.

Alright so for the 3rd time I reset my receiver to default and did the same for the sub.

I ran Audyssey again. I am unable to set my sub's gain lower or higher than about 20-23 Audyssey won't let me. It makes me do a sub level match. See here.

https://youtu.be/XrdOG8pjMeY

After this run my sub trim was at -0.5 db. I moved my sub over more to the left and put my front main speaker to the right of it. That is the only difference.

I made this video below to show what I am doing. It is all so basic I don't know what I could be doing wrong.

I purchased the sub from SVS' outlet, so hopefully it isn't bad.

https://youtu.be/datRp55BYt8

Currently, 5.1 setup
AVR - Denon AVR-X4400H
Sub - SVS PB-4000
Mains - Klipsch RP-600M
Surrounds - Klipsch satellite speakers
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post #55 of 272 Old 11-29-2018, 08:24 PM
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Is all of this stuff necessary?

EQ, Bass boost, level, trim, gain, offset etc.

How does one learn all of this stuff? Other than EQing the signal, amplifying the signal or amplifying the power, I cannot figure out what else can be adjusted (other than time/phase).

Are all of these terms just describing the same modifications but at different places (receiver/sub/amp) and in relation to other things?
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post #56 of 272 Old 11-29-2018, 08:47 PM
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Have you tried the pfar54 crawl yet? I'd set a test tone on youtube at 20, 30 and 40hz and then crawl around the room and see if you can find spots where it shakes the earth. Easier than moving the sub to the mlp and at least you'll know how big of an issue your sub placement is or if it is indeed your main problem. If you do find spots in your room where the sub finally meets your listening expectations then yep, it's time to do the subwoofer crawl to make it work.
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post #57 of 272 Old 11-29-2018, 08:56 PM
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this guy has bunch of simple youtube vids...maybe it can help...if this one doesnt help maybe his channel has others to help....he has a lot.


darthray and 084runnerltd like this.

Power: Marantz sr7008, NAD C 275Bee x 2, Video: Oppo 103, Samsung 75un6300
Speakers: Focal aria 948, Focal cc900, Klipsch synergy KSF 10.5, Magnepan LRS
Subs: Rythmik FV25HP, Rythmik FV15HP
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post #58 of 272 Old 11-29-2018, 09:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pfar54 View Post
I 100% want to do this right. I am rushing it in no way. I just figured the sub would blow be away right after turning it on and then tuning it would make it even better.

Alright so for the 3rd time I reset my receiver to default and did the same for the sub.

I ran Audyssey again. I am unable to set my sub's gain lower or higher than about 20-23 Audyssey won't let me. It makes me do a sub level match. See here.

https://youtu.be/XrdOG8pjMeY

After this run my sub trim was at -0.5 db. I moved my sub over more to the left and put my front main speaker to the right of it. That is the only difference.

I made this video below to show what I am doing. It is all so basic I don't know what I could be doing wrong.

I purchased the sub from SVS' outlet, so hopefully it isn't bad.

https://youtu.be/datRp55BYt8
I actually watched your videos. Here's the thing, your sub gain is too low, and Audyssey is reporting it, so it's resorting to other measures to raise the trim levels, I'm not sure how the Subwoofer Level Adjust (SLA) works, but is a feature not recommended to raise the sub levels. The sub gain is NOT controlled by the AVR, so if you can't get past -22 on the app, try raising it manually either with the remote or on the sub itself. If you can't do it, there's your problem.

In any case, I leave you the link that was posted earlier with the magnificent guide (albeit too long and imposing) that will give you more specific info, infi that will help you with future setups and will give you a better understanding of how bass works. The cliff notes on top are already very helpful, and give all the basic info (and more) that has been given you in this thread,. You can jump to specific sections for more in-depth explanations.

If you somehow think Audyssey is the culprit, you can always turn it off and see how your system works without it, without losing the EQ parameters that Audyssey set to improve frequency response (FR) in your room. Play with MV, sub gain and trim levels just to test your sub pre calibration.

But you need to be able to raise the sub gain!!!!

Calibration Guide: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...eferences.html

Vizio 43" D Series 2017 || Onkyo TX383 7.2ch || Fronts: Sony SS-CS5 || Center: Pioneer SP-C22 || Sub: Polk HTS 12 || Surrounds: Micca MB42
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post #59 of 272 Old 11-29-2018, 09:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost Recon View Post
Is all of this stuff necessary?

EQ, Bass boost, level, trim, gain, offset etc.

How does one learn all of this stuff? Other than EQing the signal, amplifying the signal or amplifying the power, I cannot figure out what else can be adjusted (other than time/phase).

Are all of these terms just describing the same modifications but at different places (receiver/sub/amp) and in relation to other things?
Necessary no, but it's helpful or convenient if you know what you're doing or what you need. The "problem" with high end receivers and subwoofers, is that they sometimes have more features that most people would care about or know how to use from the get-go. But as you gain more experience or ran into certain situations, you will find most of these additional features helpful. But for a very basic setup, they're most definitely not needed, and sometimes can be confusing.

Myself, I'm not an expert, and there's ton of stuff I don't know.

Vizio 43" D Series 2017 || Onkyo TX383 7.2ch || Fronts: Sony SS-CS5 || Center: Pioneer SP-C22 || Sub: Polk HTS 12 || Surrounds: Micca MB42
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post #60 of 272 Old 11-29-2018, 11:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pfar54 View Post
I 100% want to do this right. I am rushing it in no way. I just figured the sub would blow be away right after turning it on and then tuning it would make it even better.

Alright so for the 3rd time I reset my receiver to default and did the same for the sub.

I ran Audyssey again. I am unable to set my sub's gain lower or higher than about 20-23 Audyssey won't let me. It makes me do a sub level match. See here.

https://youtu.be/XrdOG8pjMeY

After this run my sub trim was at -0.5 db. I moved my sub over more to the left and put my front main speaker to the right of it. That is the only difference.

I made this video below to show what I am doing. It is all so basic I don't know what I could be doing wrong.

I purchased the sub from SVS' outlet, so hopefully it isn't bad.

https://youtu.be/datRp55BYt8
I don't know the SVS interface but it looks like you had the sub gain set to -30 if that is what the tablet was showing?

Assuming the -30 was the sub gain setting...

You mentioned earlier that SVS recommended -10 as the starting point for the calibration. You have the gain (~volume) turned way down on the sub - the closer to 0 the more gain (louder) you have the sub dialled in. Audessy is reporting that the sub is not loud enough. You must increase the sub gain to get into the volume range that Audessy can set the level relative to the other speaker channels with the available trim settings in the AVR. This process is automated once you have given the subwoofer enough gain.

Shoot the same video with the gain on the subwoofer set to -10 as suggested by SVS. What does Audessy report?
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