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-   -   PB-4000 Am I doing something wrong? (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-subwoofers-bass-transducers/3029728-pb-4000-am-i-doing-something-wrong.html)

pfar54 11-27-2018 12:14 PM

PB-4000 Am I doing something wrong?
 
I just received a new SVS PB-4000 sub today. After hooking it up, going through Audyssey, and following SVS's callobration instructions, the sub is not nearly as powerful as I was thinking it would be. Honestly there are certain cases where I can tell better performance than my old sub, but my old sub may have been louder.

My old sub was a Klipsch
12-inch down-firing woofer
650 watts of dynamic power (300 watts RMS)

I followed this to a T

Quote:

To get the most out of the speakers and sub, we need to make sure all of the bass is getting managed and directed properly. To do this, start by setting the volume on the PB-4000 to about -10 with all other features set to disable/0. Then, run Audyssey using all available positions and save all of the data (be as quiet as possible during calibration). After cal is finished, go back in to manual setup in your Denon and make the following changes:


1) - Set all of your speakers to "small" under the speaker configuration menu and make sure all crossover look correct.


2) - Go under the Source Setup menu > Audyssey and make sure Dynamic Volume is OFF and Dynamic EQ is ON with the Reference Offset on 0.


3) - Find the Subwoofer Mode menu and make sure it says "LFE" only and NOT LFE+Mains. Make sure the LPF of LFE is set to 120Hz.


4) - Check the channel level of the subwoofer. Ideally we want to see this come back between -3 and -10. Feel free to turn this up by about 3dB or so to achieve the level of bass you're looking for. Try to keep the subwoofer channel level out of the positive range to avoid digital clipping.



5) – Using the app or front display, enable PEQ-1 and set the frequency to 60Hz, level to +6 and Q-Value to 2.2.


If you have any additional questions, don't hesitate to ask!
Does anyone have any suggestions for me to try? Right now I have the sub at max-volume. With my Denon 4400H, I am having to turn it up to 60 + just to get any so-so bass levels.

imureh 11-27-2018 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pfar54 (Post 57174034)
I just received a new SVS PB-4000 sub today. After hooking it up, going through Audyssey, and following SVS's callobration instructions, the sub is not nearly as powerful as I was thinking it would be. Honestly there are certain cases where I can tell better performance than my old sub, but my old sub may have been louder.

My old sub was a Klipsch
12-inch down-firing woofer
650 watts of dynamic power (300 watts RMS)

I followed this to a T



Does anyone have any suggestions for me to try? Right now I have the sub at max-volume. With my Denon 4400H, I am having to turn it up to 60 + just to get any so-so bass levels.

How have you determined the best placement for the sub? Have you done a sub crawl or measured with REW? Also remember that the PB 4000 will play a lot cleaner than the Klpisch which may make it sound like its playing less louder, some times distortion gives the impression of bass being louder

Kini62 11-27-2018 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pfar54 (Post 57174034)
I just received a new SVS PB-4000 sub today. After hooking it up, going through Audyssey, and following SVS's callobration instructions, the sub is not nearly as powerful as I was thinking it would be. Honestly there are certain cases where I can tell better performance than my old sub, but my old sub may have been louder.

My old sub was a Klipsch
12-inch down-firing woofer
650 watts of dynamic power (300 watts RMS)

I followed this to a T



Does anyone have any suggestions for me to try? Right now I have the sub at max-volume. With my Denon 4400H, I am having to turn it up to 60 + just to get any so-so bass levels.

What did Audyssey set the sub trim level at? Also change your volume display to relative- so it shows volumes in dbs.

pfar54 11-27-2018 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by imureh (Post 57174178)
How have you determined the best placement for the sub? Have you done a sub crawl or measured with REW? Also remember that the PB 4000 will play a lot cleaner than the Klpisch which may make it sound like its playing less louder, some times distortion gives the impression of bass being louder

No, never even heard of a sub crawl. There is only so much room in my living room for placement. The sub is placed to the left of my tv stand, on the inside of the left speaker.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kini62 (Post 57174182)
What did Audyssey set the sub trim level at? Also change your volume display to relative- so it shows volumes in dbs.

Sub trim level? Is this in the crossover section?

The volume on the PB-4000 is showing in dbs. It is a 0 db right now, which is the highest volume on the sub.

Kini62 11-27-2018 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pfar54 (Post 57174374)
No, never even heard of a sub crawl. There is only so much room in my living room for placement. The sub is placed to the left of my tv stand, on the inside of the left speaker.



Sub trim level? Is this in the crossover section?

The volume on the PB-4000 is showing in dbs. It is a 0 db right now, which is the highest volume on the sub.

I meant the display on your receiver. It's much more useful in terms of determining your listening levels.

As for the sub trim level it should be under the speaker menu and it should say levels or something similar. Maybe time to read or re-read the manual. Modern AVRs are can be quite complicated.

basshead81 11-27-2018 03:55 PM

You need to lower the sub gain and rerun Audy. Then go into the AVR Setup/ Manual Setup/ levels and check to see what the sub is set at. You want to end up around -9db. If not adjust the sub amp level and rerun Audy until the sub level in the AVR is -9 after calibration. Then manually adjust the level up to -3. The issue is Audy tends to set the sub low. Also keep in mind that you can not boost the sub output till after you run Audy because it will attempt to set the sub at standard 75db no matter what you have the sub amp level set at prior to running Audy. That is why there is adjustment levels, so the room correction can make the necessary adjustments to get the sub and speakers calibrated for set target which again is 75db.

pfar54 11-27-2018 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by basshead81 (Post 57175454)
You need to lower the sub gain and rerun Audy. Then go into the AVR Setup/ Manual Setup/ levels and check to see what the sub is set at. You want to end up around -9db. If not adjust the sub amp level and rerun Audy until the sub level in the AVR is -9 after calibration. Then manually adjust the level up to -3. The issue is Audy tends to set the sub low. Also keep in mind that you can not boost the sub output till after you run Audy because it will attempt to set the sub at standard 75db no matter what you have the sub amp level set at prior to running Audy. That is why there is adjustment levels, so the room correction can make the necessary adjustments to get the sub and speakers calibrated for set target which again is 75db.

Lower the sub gain on what the sub itself or in the receiver setup?

I had the sub's volume set at -20 when setting up Audy. Initially, I had it at -10 per the instructions from SVS. Audy prompted that the volume was over 75 db, but it was barely audible?

darthray 11-27-2018 05:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by imureh (Post 57174178)
How have you determined the best placement for the sub? Have you done a sub crawl or measured with REW? Also remember that the PB 4000 will play a lot cleaner than the Klpisch which may make it sound like its playing less louder, some times distortion gives the impression of bass being louder


Very big +1

When it come to sub/s as you said, location is everything.
Also agree, when someone coming from a lesser sub, to a quality one. That person may feel the new sub weaker, since it does not emphasize some frequencies. Since the perception of distortion from a lesser sub, make it sound louder.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pfar54 (Post 57174034)
I just received a new SVS PB-4000 sub today. After hooking it up, going through Audyssey, and following SVS's callobration instructions, the sub is not nearly as powerful as I was thinking it would be. Honestly there are certain cases where I can tell better performance than my old sub, but my old sub may have been louder.

My old sub was a Klipsch
12-inch down-firing woofer
650 watts of dynamic power (300 watts RMS)

I followed this to a T



Does anyone have any suggestions for me to try? Right now I have the sub at max-volume. With my Denon 4400H, I am having to turn it up to 60 + just to get any so-so bass levels.


As mention in the above quotes from imureh. When it come to subwoofer, location is primordial.

My suggestion would take some time to read this Guide;
Guide to Subwoofer Calibration and Bass Preferences

While it is a long read. Everything you need to know about subwoofer settings, how it interact in a room and also your AVR settings are in there. And also have quick links for different sections.
I had to read this Guide a few time, but it was worth-it. my bass is now perfect for my situation:)

Your older Klipsch 12-inch down-firing woofer, is not even near the league/performance of your new PB-4000.
What previously found to sound louder, could very well be contributed to some frequencies been boost, or having some distortion that is perceive often as been louder.

And last, but not least. Many find after a calibration, that there is not enough bass for their taste.
It is not uncommon for many members, adding +5-6dB to the AVR/AVP bass setting, after calibration. Mine is +2dB.


Ray

sotwell 11-28-2018 07:33 AM

call SVS. They pick up in real time and support is awesome. That's part of the reason to spend top dollar for an SVS.

iceatola 11-28-2018 09:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sotwell (Post 57178852)
call SVS. They pick up in real time and support is awesome. That's part of the reason to spend top dollar for an SVS.


+1 Second this statement ;)

pfar54 11-28-2018 03:02 PM

Alright, I read some of the massive thread posted. I will have to review it again. Everything I am posting in here I am also sending to SVS.

Here is a bunch of images to show my settings. I tried increasing the level of the receiver. It just makes the sub get louder at lower volume levels. The sub still isn't getting to the level where I thought it would be, musically, at high-volume levels.

https://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e...174311_HDR.jpg

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e7...174235_HDR.jpg

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e7...174100_HDR.jpg

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e7...174032_HDR.jpg

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e7...174013_HDR.jpg

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e7...8-17-44-12.png

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e7...8-17-43-56.png

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e7...8-17-43-44.png

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e7...8-17-43-50.png

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e7...8-17-43-38.png

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e7...7-14-49-11.png


For a sub being this much more massive than my last, and expensive, I was hoping to be awed.

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e7...130544_HDR.jpg


It does look really good though.

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e7...150901_HDR.jpg

macgallant 11-28-2018 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pfar54 (Post 57181752)
Alright, I read some of the massive thread posted. I will have to review it again. Everything I am posting in here I am also sending to SVS.

Here is a bunch of images to show my settings. I tried increasing the level of the receiver. It just makes the sub get louder at lower volume levels. The sub still isn't getting to the level where I thought it would be, musically, at high-volume levels.

https://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e...174311_HDR.jpg

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e7...174235_HDR.jpg

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e7...174100_HDR.jpg

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e7...174032_HDR.jpg

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e7...174013_HDR.jpg

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e7...8-17-44-12.png

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e7...8-17-43-56.png

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e7...8-17-43-44.png

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e7...8-17-43-50.png

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e7...8-17-43-38.png

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e7...7-14-49-11.png


For a sub being this much more massive than my last, and expensive, I was hoping to be awed.

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e7...130544_HDR.jpg


It does look really good though.

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e7...150901_HDR.jpg


+7 subwoofer level :o that should never go over 0

bear123 11-28-2018 04:35 PM

It looks like Audysey turned your sub up 7 dB to achieve the required 75 dB calibration level. This means that the gain on your sub was set too low. In other words, based on the gain setting of your sub when you ran Audysey, the sub was only producing 68 dB instead of the required 75 for calibration. So it increased the gain in the AVR by 7 dB to +7 in order to reach the correct level. However, this calibration level is typically too low for most peoples taste by somewhere between 3 to 9 dB.

The solution is to increase the gain on the sub and rerun Audysey, as many times as necessary to end up with an AVR trim of around -8 to -9 instead of +7. What this means is that the sub was technically turned up a little too loud, higher than 75 dB ,so Audysey reduced sub volume by 8 or 9 dB to get to 75. The result is that you can then turn the subwoofer up in the AVR from, for example, -9 to -3 for a 6 dB increase in volume. This should get you in the ballpark of adequate bass. You can also turn on DEQ to get more bass at lower volumes.

pfar54 11-28-2018 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bear123 (Post 57182250)
It looks like Audysey turned your sub up 7 dB to achieve the required 75 dB calibration level. This means that the gain on your sub was set too low. In other words, based on the gain setting of your sub when you ran Audysey, the sub was only producing 68 dB instead of the required 75 for calibration. So it increased the gain in the AVR by 7 dB to +7 in order to reach the correct level. However, this calibration level is typically too low for most peoples taste by somewhere between 3 to 9 dB.

The solution is to increase the gain on the sub and rerun Audysey, as many times as necessary to end up with an AVR trim of around -8 to -9 instead of +7. What this means is that the sub was technically turned up a little too loud, higher than 75 dB ,so Audysey reduced sub volume by 8 or 9 dB to get to 75. The result is that you can then turn the subwoofer up in the AVR from, for example, -9 to -3 for a 6 dB increase in volume. This should get you in the ballpark of adequate bass. You can also turn on DEQ to get more bass at lower volumes.

It was never at +7 after the Audyssey setup. It was after I turned it up to see if it made a difference. I am in the midst of running Audy again to see what it goes to after.

Is it normal for the sub to be barely audible during Audyssey? The sound meter says it is at 75 db, but there is no way that is true.

pfar54 11-28-2018 05:21 PM

After doing Audyssey again, no change in improved sound. The level was at 0 after this run of Audyssey (pretty sure it was last time too).

Anything else I can try. Plain and simple, I am extremely dissapointed in the performance of this sub. I appreciate the higher quality in lows, but at the same time for the price they cost, it should sound louder.

imureh 11-28-2018 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pfar54 (Post 57182452)
After doing Audyssey again, no change in improved sound. The level was at 0 after this run of Audyssey (pretty sure it was last time too).

Anything else I can try. Plain and simple, I am extremely dissapointed in the performance of this sub. I appreciate the higher quality in lows, but at the same time for the price they cost, it should sound louder.

Unless you can confirm that it is not a placement issue, you can do whatever you want, it will not change. Look up sub crawl or learn REW to see what is happening in your room

Kini62 11-28-2018 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pfar54 (Post 57182452)
After doing Audyssey again, no change in improved sound. The level was at 0 after this run of Audyssey (pretty sure it was last time too).

Anything else I can try. Plain and simple, I am extremely dissapointed in the performance of this sub. I appreciate the higher quality in lows, but at the same time for the price they cost, it should sound louder.

Turn the low pass filter OFF.

And turn the room gain compensation OFF.

confinoj 11-28-2018 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pfar54 (Post 57182452)
After doing Audyssey again, no change in improved sound. The level was at 0 after this run of Audyssey (pretty sure it was last time too).

Anything else I can try. Plain and simple, I am extremely dissapointed in the performance of this sub. I appreciate the higher quality in lows, but at the same time for the price they cost, it should sound louder.

There is no way the PB-4000 will not get loud enough for 99% of people unless you are in a huge room trying to play at high levels or sitting in a huge null. There is almost certainly a set up or equipment issue. It would be very unusual to have to set the sub gain all the way up to 0 for Audy calibration to achieve the standard 75db at MLP. I see a few issues with your sub settings in the SVS app. Room gain compensation should be off for now. This is used for small rooms when there is too much low bass gain causing bloated bass. You are limiting lower frequency SPL with this. You set an unusually large boost using PEQ which will mess with Audy calibration. Turn PEQ off. You can play with it later once you get sub set up correctly. Turn off the low pass filter. The only reason to turn this on is when playing with cascading crossovers which is a more advanced configuration you can think about only once you have set up the sub correctly. Make sure all connections are correct and tight. Re-run Audy after you have corrected the above.

RayGuy 11-28-2018 06:53 PM

Move the sub and try again.

pfar54 11-28-2018 07:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kini62 (Post 57182666)
Turn the low pass filter OFF.

And turn the room gain compensation OFF.

Fixed

Quote:

Originally Posted by confinoj (Post 57182776)
There is no way the PB-4000 will not get loud enough for 99% of people unless you are in a huge room trying to play at high levels or sitting in a huge null. There is almost certainly a set up or equipment issue. It would be very unusual to have to set the sub gain all the way up to 0 for Audy calibration to achieve the standard 75db at MLP. I see a few issues with your sub settings in the SVS app. Room gain compensation should be off for now. This is used for small rooms when there is too much low bass gain causing bloated bass. You are limiting lower frequency SPL with this. You set an unusually large boost using PEQ which will mess with Audy calibration. Turn PEQ off. You can play with it later once you get sub set up correctly. Turn off the low pass filter. The only reason to turn this on is when playing with cascading crossovers which is a more advanced configuration you can think about only once you have set up the sub correctly. Make sure all connections are correct and tight. Re-run Audy after you have corrected the above.

Completed these steps. It sounds better than the last run, now it sounds like the first time I did this. So better, but still under-performing my expectations by a lot. My other sub was still louder. It seems from receiver volume levels 45 - 65 it the only time the sub makes noticeable gains in output level. After 65 I don't notice it getting any louder. The receiver goes from 0 - 98.

How is the sub supposed to sound during Audyssey? The speakers make what I would think is a 75 db sound. My sub can barely be heard, it is like it is trying to replicate the higher pitch sound. It is about the sound of a whisper.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RayGuy (Post 57182950)
Move the sub and try again.

It is in the same position where I had my old, smaller Klipsch sub. The other sub was louder.

RayGuy 11-28-2018 07:19 PM

Quote:

It is in the same position where I had my old, smaller Klipsch sub. The other sub was louder.
Move the sub and try again. Clearly, this is not a good position for THIS sub.

Kini62 11-28-2018 07:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pfar54 (Post 57183012)
Fixed



Completed these steps. It sounds better than the last run, now it sounds like the first time I did this. So better, but still under-performing my expectations by a lot. My other sub was still louder. It seems from receiver volume levels 45 - 65 it the only time the sub makes noticeable gains in output level. After 65 I don't notice it getting any louder. The receiver goes from 0 - 98.

How is the sub supposed to sound during Audyssey? The speakers make what I would think is a 75 db sound. My sub can barely be heard, it is like it is trying to replicate the higher pitch sound. It is about the sound of a whisper.



It is in the same position where I had my old, smaller Klipsch sub. The other sub was louder.

Do you have the RCA cable plugged into the correct input on the sub?

pfar54 11-28-2018 07:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kini62 (Post 57183130)
Do you have the RCA cable plugged into the correct input on the sub?

It’s plugged into the lfe input.

Kini62 11-28-2018 07:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pfar54 (Post 57183160)
It’s plugged into the lfe input.

At this point there's not much more to do. It would be hard to believe anything is wrong with the sub. Have you contacted svs again?

I went from a def tech supercube 8000 that has a fair amount more output than your Klipsch to an svs pc12+ which doesn't have near as much output as your pb4000 and it was a huge upgrade.

Sub or setup is bad.

basshead81 11-28-2018 07:44 PM

1 Attachment(s)
You are using the wrong sub level in the AVR. Set sub level adjust back to 0 and turn that off.

Again, Go to Setup Menu/ Speakers/ Manual setup/ Speakers/ Test tone Start.


Now report back where the sub level and speakers are set. I just fixed the same issue with my brothers setup after he bought my Yamaha. I went over there and YPAO had the speakers set +9 and the sub -10. He had the gain maxed on the XV15 and it still had no bass. I backed the sub gain down to 70% and reran room correction, YPAO now had all speakers set around 0-+1 and the sub -6, then I moved the sub trim up to -1. Boom, 20hz violator song was making clock on the wall bounce at reference in a 5000^3 room.

Here is a pic of my settings for reference, so you know what menu to look for.

pfar54 11-28-2018 08:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by basshead81 (Post 57183204)
You are using the wrong sub level in the AVR. Set sub level adjust back to 0 and turn that off.

Again, Go to Setup Menu/ Speakers/ Manual setup/ Speakers/ Test tone Start.


Now report back where the sub level and speakers are set. I just fixed the same issue with my brothers setup after he bought my Yamaha. I went over there and YPAO had the speakers set +9 and the sub -10. He had the gain maxed on the XV15 and it still had no bass. I backed the sub gain down to 70% and reran room correction, YPAO now had all speakers set around 0-+1 and the sub -6, then I moved the sub trim up to -1. Boom, 20hz violator song was making clock on the wall bounce at reference in a 5000^3 room.

Here is a pic of my settings for reference, so you know what menu to look for.

I had the sub level set at 0 for the new Audyssey run this past time. However, I turned it off as you mentioned.

What does your sub sound like when you scroll down to it on the test tone page? Can you hear the sub? If so, how loud?

Here is what my settings are at post Audy config.

https://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e...230850_HDR.jpg

domdomdom01 11-28-2018 08:35 PM

I’ve seen you ask what t usually sounds like during audyssey a bunch of times and no ones answered. It’s very quiet compared to the rest of the speakers, but not like a whisper like you say. People have suggested moving the sub and you don’t respond when then do, but I GUARANTEE you this is the issue. I understand that you don’t have a lot of room and can’t keep it there, but for the sake of the experiment, move it around to different places and see what it sounds like. This alone can make the difference between barely anything there and extremely loud. Just try it before you do anything else!

confinoj 11-28-2018 10:05 PM

You may want to just test the sub independent of all other equipment/settings. You can use a smartphone or iPod with a mini stereo to dual rca hooked up directly to sub inputs. Reset SVS sub app to factory default settings and temporarily set low pass filter to 100hz. Turn smart phone/iPod volume to max. Leave sub at default volume/gain of 10. Play a bassy song. If sub is working well you should get pretty strong output from sub. If not something is wrong with sub.

ack_bk 11-29-2018 05:09 AM

Not knowing your room setup but keep in mind the center of a room is a giant null. Are you sitting at or near the center of the room? Sub placement is very important so I would spend some time looking into that.

Have you also tried just disabling Audyssey and listening to the sub with little to no EQ? Get an SPL meter (or even an app for your phone) and try manual adjustments just to see.

Something definitely seems off and I don't blame you for questioning your purchase but keep plugging at it.

pfar54 11-29-2018 06:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by domdomdom01 (Post 57183428)
I’ve seen you ask what t usually sounds like during audyssey a bunch of times and no ones answered. It’s very quiet compared to the rest of the speakers, but not like a whisper like you say. People have suggested moving the sub and you don’t respond when then do, but I GUARANTEE you this is the issue. I understand that you don’t have a lot of room and can’t keep it there, but for the sake of the experiment, move it around to different places and see what it sounds like. This alone can make the difference between barely anything there and extremely loud. Just try it before you do anything else!

I haven't been able to move around the sub yet. I looked up sub crawling last night. I don't think I will be able to put my sub on my couch like they did in the video, but I can do something comparable.

Just remember this sub weighs 153 lbs, so not the easiest and quickest thing to do.

Quote:

Originally Posted by confinoj (Post 57183672)
You may want to just test the sub independent of all other equipment/settings. You can use a smartphone or iPod with a mini stereo to dual rca hooked up directly to sub inputs. Reset SVS sub app to factory default settings and temporarily set low pass filter to 100hz. Turn smart phone/iPod volume to max. Leave sub at default volume/gain of 10. Play a bassy song. If sub is working well you should get pretty strong output from sub. If not something is wrong with sub.

I will try this. It will take a while because I will have to purchase the cable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ack_bk (Post 57184404)
Not knowing your room setup but keep in mind the center of a room is a giant null. Are you sitting at or near the center of the room? Sub placement is very important so I would spend some time looking into that.

Have you also tried just disabling Audyssey and listening to the sub with little to no EQ? Get an SPL meter (or even an app for your phone) and try manual adjustments just to see.

Something definitely seems off and I don't blame you for questioning your purchase but keep plugging at it.

No, I haven't disabled Audyssey without running EQ. Just bought an SPL meter.

Below is a basic sketch of the room layout.
-Red = furniture
-orange - sub
-blue = doors
-no lines = hallways

I am sitting in the center/back of the room.
The room is small and until I move this summer, there really isn't much room to move things, though I can move it just for testing purposes.


https://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e.../speakers1.png


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