Paradigm Defiance V12 vs Rythmik LV12F - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 27 Old 12-17-2018, 07:05 AM - Thread Starter
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Paradigm Defiance V12 vs Rythmik LV12F

Hey everyone..I'm new to the site and finally looking to upgrade to high quality dual subs. I have roughly a 15 x30 (3700 cubic feet). All my research puts me looking at Rythmik LV12F or SVS PB1000, or HSU. I'm really leaning towards the LV12F but I looked at the Paradigm V12 at my local shop. I really like the app control ability and built in ARC, however, there are rated at 120 watt RMS which seems pretty low for a sub in the $500 to $600 range. Any input would be greatly appreciated!
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post #2 of 27 Old 12-17-2018, 07:22 AM
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Paradigm does make great subs but you get more for the money with the others. The App is handy at setup time but most here set the sub and NEVER change it. For me the app saves you from getting out of your chair for the first week with the sub, that is it. ARC is great but most newer AVR's have this kind of thing anyway.
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post #3 of 27 Old 12-17-2018, 10:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cjmorelock View Post
Hey everyone..I'm new to the site and finally looking to upgrade to high quality dual subs. I have roughly a 15 x30 (3700 cubic feet). All my research puts me looking at Rythmik LV12F or SVS PB1000, or HSU. I'm really leaning towards the LV12F but I looked at the Paradigm V12 at my local shop. I really like the app control ability and built in ARC, however, there are rated at 120 watt RMS which seems pretty low for a sub in the $500 to $600 range. Any input would be greatly appreciated!


Placement is far more important than any app. I would go for the Rythmik LV12R.

what receiver will you be pairing them with>?

Speakers: KEF Q100, Q300, Q750, Q650C / Fluance Signature Series Bookshelf, SX6, XL5F/ Mirage M-190 / DCM TP160S-CH Subwoofers: Outlaw Ultra X12 (x2) / BIC H100-II
Receiver: Denon AVR-X4500H, AVR-X1400H Integrated Amplifier: Yamaha A-S501/ Fosi Audio TPA3116 mini amp Extras: MiniDSP Umik-1 Amplifier: Emotiva BasX-A300
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post #4 of 27 Old 12-17-2018, 11:20 AM
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3700 cubic feet and a 12 inch subwoofer should never be used together in a sentence
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post #5 of 27 Old 12-17-2018, 11:31 AM - Thread Starter
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I'm going to run dual
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post #6 of 27 Old 12-17-2018, 11:35 AM - Thread Starter
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I'm going to run dual subs. Currently have 3 Paradigm Millennial XL for fronts and center. Receiver is a Denon 3313 but that will be upgraded shortly to a newer 11 channel receiver
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post #7 of 27 Old 12-17-2018, 11:37 AM - Thread Starter
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I should listening position is 11 ft
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post #8 of 27 Old 12-17-2018, 11:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by qguy View Post
3700 cubic feet and a 12 inch subwoofer should never be used together in a sentence

Plus 1.

Conider the HSU VTF3 MK5
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post #9 of 27 Old 12-17-2018, 12:28 PM
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I would start with a single ported 15 and add another one in the future.

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I'm going to run dual subs. Currently have 3 Paradigm Millennial XL for fronts and center. Receiver is a Denon 3313 but that will be upgraded shortly to a newer 11 channel receiver
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post #10 of 27 Old 12-17-2018, 12:37 PM - Thread Starter
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I thought about that as well. When I talked to SVS they said dual PB 2000's would work in that room which is why I thought about staying with 12's for budget reasons. I thought the general consensus is to for duals over one larger sub? Back to my original question...it doesn't sound like the Paradigm V12 has near enough power for my room?
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post #11 of 27 Old 12-17-2018, 12:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cjmorelock View Post
I thought about that as well. When I talked to SVS they said dual PB 2000's would work in that room which is why I thought about staying with 12's for budget reasons. I thought the general consensus is to for duals over one larger sub? Back to my original question...it doesn't sound like the Paradigm V12 has near enough power for my room?
It probably does alright but unless it's significantly less expensive than your other choices you should pass.

IMO unless you're a real basshead you'll be alright with a pair of LV12s or if you can up the budget just a tad a pair of HSU VTF2 Mk5s would be little better as its performance is closer to the more expensive rythmik LVX12.
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post #12 of 27 Old 12-17-2018, 01:25 PM - Thread Starter
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It probably does alright but unless it's significantly less expensive than your other choices you should pass.

IMO unless you're a real basshead you'll be alright with a pair of LV12s or if you can up the budget just a tad a pair of HSU VTF2 Mk5s would be little better as its performance is closer to the more expensive rythmik LVX12.[/QUOTE]


Great! Thanks for the insight. I'm definitely not a bass head. I've been dealing with one 10 yr old Infinity 8inch so I'm sure anything will be an improvement
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post #13 of 27 Old 12-18-2018, 09:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spyboy View Post
Plus 1.

Conider the HSU VTF3 MK5
That's what I have and it's a fantastic sub. My living room is 27'Lx15'Wx22'H and opens into a kitchen that's 21'Lx14'Wx12'H. The HSU does a wonderful job in that space. I was originally going for a FVX15 from Rhythmik but they were sold out and would not get more in for a couple months when I was looking to buy. I have zero buyers remorse on the HSU- I'd go for the VTF3, the SVS is overpriced to me for what you get. They make good stuff, but for the price you can do better IMO.
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post #14 of 27 Old 12-18-2018, 11:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by qguy View Post
3700 cubic feet and a 12 inch subwoofer should never be used together in a sentence
my Dual Outlaw X12 (similar output i'm guessing) works amazing in my room with roughly the same Cu.Ft.. The primary listening area is only 2200 cu.ft(4000 cu.ft. with connecting rooms) and i spend a lot of time with placement (sub crawl)

the OP is planning on going with Duals.

Dual LVX12 or Dual VTF2 MK5 would be better(VTF3 MK5 obviously even better)
Not sure how close the output of the X12/LV12R are but the Outlaws are on sale for $549(free shipping)

Speakers: KEF Q100, Q300, Q750, Q650C / Fluance Signature Series Bookshelf, SX6, XL5F/ Mirage M-190 / DCM TP160S-CH Subwoofers: Outlaw Ultra X12 (x2) / BIC H100-II
Receiver: Denon AVR-X4500H, AVR-X1400H Integrated Amplifier: Yamaha A-S501/ Fosi Audio TPA3116 mini amp Extras: MiniDSP Umik-1 Amplifier: Emotiva BasX-A300
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post #15 of 27 Old 12-18-2018, 12:02 PM
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OP, it sounds like you are describing the Defiance V12 sub. I don't have experience with that exact sub, but I can say that the app control that comes with the Defiance X12 is way more useful than I thought. I obviously used the ARC, which worked great for integrating the sub with the room and other speakers, but being able to dial bass up and down as I listen, as opposed to hunching over the box in the corner is a nice value-added feature that I didn't originally think I would appreciate at all.

I can't really comment on the other subs, though I imagine their reputations are deserved. The sub I owned previous to this was a Paradigm PDR-12 and the X12 definitely sounds like at least two of those, and even than that more in the lowest octave. And I paid 84% of MSRP, but there may be better values in subs.

LCR: Paradigm Prestige 75F/45C | Atmos: Paradigm CI Elite E65-R | Surround: Klipsch RS-52 II | Sub: Paradigm Defiance X12
AVR: Pioneer SC-LX502 | Sources: Xbox One S, Denon DCM-460
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post #16 of 27 Old 12-18-2018, 12:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cjmorelock View Post
It probably does alright but unless it's significantly less expensive than your other choices you should pass.

IMO unless you're a real basshead you'll be alright with a pair of LV12s or if you can up the budget just a tad a pair of HSU VTF2 Mk5s would be little better as its performance is closer to the more expensive rythmik LVX12.

Great! Thanks for the insight. I'm definitely not a bass head. I've been dealing with one 10 yr old Infinity 8inch so I'm sure anything will be an improvement[/QUOTE]


Once you get a taste of real LFE it's addicting lol I'm already planning my next subwoofer upgrade lol ( dual DIY Dayton Audio 18")

i would probably go with the VTF2 MK5 and run them in max output mode

NOTE: i just noticed the LV12F is the new redesign(replacing the LV12R) the ports going back to the front. (I haven't read an official review on the redesign yet)

Speakers: KEF Q100, Q300, Q750, Q650C / Fluance Signature Series Bookshelf, SX6, XL5F/ Mirage M-190 / DCM TP160S-CH Subwoofers: Outlaw Ultra X12 (x2) / BIC H100-II
Receiver: Denon AVR-X4500H, AVR-X1400H Integrated Amplifier: Yamaha A-S501/ Fosi Audio TPA3116 mini amp Extras: MiniDSP Umik-1 Amplifier: Emotiva BasX-A300

Last edited by macgallant; 12-18-2018 at 12:25 PM.
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post #17 of 27 Old 12-18-2018, 03:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by macgallant View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by cjmorelock View Post
It probably does alright but unless it's significantly less expensive than your other choices you should pass.

IMO unless you're a real basshead you'll be alright with a pair of LV12s or if you can up the budget just a tad a pair of HSU VTF2 Mk5s would be little better as its performance is closer to the more expensive rythmik LVX12.

Great! Thanks for the insight. I'm definitely not a bass head. I've been dealing with one 10 yr old Infinity 8inch so I'm sure anything will be an improvement

Once you get a taste of real LFE it's addicting lol I'm already planning my next subwoofer upgrade lol ( dual DIY Dayton Audio 18")

i would probably go with the VTF2 MK5 and run them in max output mode [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG]

NOTE: i just noticed the LV12F is the new redesign(replacing the LV12R) the ports going back to the front. (I haven't read an official review on the redesign yet)[/QUOTE]


Dual 18's might tick off my wife..lol. Does the LV12 switching to front port make a significant difference?
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post #18 of 27 Old 12-18-2018, 03:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crazyForce View Post
OP, it sounds like you are describing the Defiance V12 sub. I don't have experience with that exact sub, but I can say that the app control that comes with the Defiance X12 is way more useful than I thought. I obviously used the ARC, which worked great for integrating the sub with the room and other speakers, but being able to dial bass up and down as I listen, as opposed to hunching over the box in the corner is a nice value-added feature that I didn't originally think I would appreciate at all.

I can't really comment on the other subs, though I imagine their reputations are deserved. The sub I owned previous to this was a Paradigm PDR-12 and the X12 definitely sounds like at least two of those, and even than that more in the lowest octave. And I paid 84% of MSRP, but there may be better values in subs.
The X12 is a little out of budget and seems and much more powerful. I am mostly concerned about the V12 only having 120 RMS. I was told it's a model designed to compete with SVS and other "internet" direct subs but am concerned of the quality considered that line is made in China.
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post #19 of 27 Old 12-18-2018, 04:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cjmorelock View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by macgallant View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by cjmorelock View Post
It probably does alright but unless it's significantly less expensive than your other choices you should pass.

IMO unless you're a real basshead you'll be alright with a pair of LV12s or if you can up the budget just a tad a pair of HSU VTF2 Mk5s would be little better as its performance is closer to the more expensive rythmik LVX12.

Great! Thanks for the insight. I'm definitely not a bass head. I've been dealing with one 10 yr old Infinity 8inch so I'm sure anything will be an improvement

Once you get a taste of real LFE it's addicting lol I'm already planning my next subwoofer upgrade lol ( dual DIY Dayton Audio 18")

i would probably go with the VTF2 MK5 and run them in max output mode [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG]

NOTE: i just noticed the LV12F is the new redesign(replacing the LV12R) the ports going back to the front. (I haven't read an official review on the redesign yet)

Dual 18's might tick off my wife..lol. Does the LV12 switching to front port make a significant difference?[/QUOTE]

Dual sealed 18's aren't big imo.

If anything the front port probably improved the lv12. The lv12r had aome chuffing issues in intense LFE scenes. I'm sure Rythmik had good reason to make the switch

Speakers: KEF Q100, Q300, Q750, Q650C / Fluance Signature Series Bookshelf, SX6, XL5F/ Mirage M-190 / DCM TP160S-CH Subwoofers: Outlaw Ultra X12 (x2) / BIC H100-II
Receiver: Denon AVR-X4500H, AVR-X1400H Integrated Amplifier: Yamaha A-S501/ Fosi Audio TPA3116 mini amp Extras: MiniDSP Umik-1 Amplifier: Emotiva BasX-A300
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post #20 of 27 Old 12-18-2018, 04:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by macgallant View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by cjmorelock View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by macgallant View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by cjmorelock View Post
It probably does alright but unless it's significantly less expensive than your other choices you should pass.

IMO unless you're a real basshead you'll be alright with a pair of LV12s or if you can up the budget just a tad a pair of HSU VTF2 Mk5s would be little better as its performance is closer to the more expensive rythmik LVX12.

Great! Thanks for the insight. I'm definitely not a bass head. I've been dealing with one 10 yr old Infinity 8inch so I'm sure anything will be an improvement

Once you get a taste of real LFE it's addicting lol I'm already planning my next subwoofer upgrade lol ( dual DIY Dayton Audio 18")

i would probably go with the VTF2 MK5 and run them in max output mode [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG]

NOTE: i just noticed the LV12F is the new redesign(replacing the LV12R) the ports going back to the front. (I haven't read an official review on the redesign yet)

Dual 18's might tick off my wife..lol. Does the LV12 switching to front port make a significant difference?
Dual sealed 18's aren't big imo.

If anything the front port probably improved the lv12. The lv12r had some chuffing issues in intense/extreme LFE scenes. I'm sure Rythmik had good reason to make the switch[/QUOTE]

Speakers: KEF Q100, Q300, Q750, Q650C / Fluance Signature Series Bookshelf, SX6, XL5F/ Mirage M-190 / DCM TP160S-CH Subwoofers: Outlaw Ultra X12 (x2) / BIC H100-II
Receiver: Denon AVR-X4500H, AVR-X1400H Integrated Amplifier: Yamaha A-S501/ Fosi Audio TPA3116 mini amp Extras: MiniDSP Umik-1 Amplifier: Emotiva BasX-A300
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post #21 of 27 Old 12-18-2018, 04:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by macgallant View Post
Dual sealed 18's aren't big imo.

If anything the front port probably improved the lv12. The lv12r had some chuffing issues in intense/extreme LFE scenes. I'm sure Rythmik had good reason to make the switch
[/QUOTE]

I had read somewhere a couple of months ago, I believe it was on their Asia site, the reason for switching to the front port was from "user demand". Initially it was only for Asian markets as the typical room which they were being placed in was smaller and therefore asian customers wanted to place the sub closer to the wall making the rear port unrealistic. Due to user demand they have moved the port to the front. I asked in the official Rythmik thread if there was any other benefits/reasoning for this but never got an answer.
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post #22 of 27 Old 12-18-2018, 07:04 PM - Thread Starter
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I just realized I can add attachment's so I'll add pictures for some last input since my wife's bugging me to hurry up and order them😁
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post #23 of 27 Old 12-19-2018, 05:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cjmorelock View Post
I just realized I can add attachment's so I'll add pictures for some last input since my wife's bugging me to hurry up and order them😁
You got some space for dual sub. go for dual LV12f

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post #24 of 27 Old 12-27-2018, 09:59 PM - Thread Starter
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UPDATE: So I ordered and received dual VTF- 2 MK5. So far they sound awesome!! I'm a noon so it'll probably take a bit to tweak since I don't know what I don't know😁 I followed HSU initial setup and then ran Audessy on my Denon. Any tips for proper set up? I'd like to set and forget and have it ready to go. I'm 90/10 movies to music.,for now.
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post #25 of 27 Old 12-28-2018, 12:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cjmorelock View Post
UPDATE: So I ordered and received dual VTF- 2 MK5. So far they sound awesome!! I'm a noon so it'll probably take a bit to tweak since I don't know what I don't know😁 I followed HSU initial setup and then ran Audessy on my Denon. Any tips for proper set up? I'd like to set and forget and have it ready to go. I'm 90/10 movies to music.,for now.

1) Do the subwoofer crawl (youtube) to determine best placement options. This is a very important step if you want to get the most out of your subs.

2) Set crossover knob all the way up, leave phase at 0 and set volume knob to 12 o'clock.

3) Run audyssey. If you have XT32 it will tell you if your subs are to high or too low before running through the calibration phase. If too high, turn it down incrementally until audyssey accepts the setting. Ideally you should be between -5 to -10 after calibration.

4) Manually set all speakers to small and set crossover to 80hz to start. You can experiment with a higher or lower crossover, but don't set it lower than the audyssey default.

5) Say yes to turning on dynamic eq, then turn it off manually unless you enjoy listening with it on, most don't.

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post #26 of 27 Old 12-28-2018, 12:31 AM
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Something else to keep in mind is that your speakers have a ±3 dB from 120 Hz – 21 kHz.

This suggests your crossover on the AVR may have to be set to 120 Hz for a seamless transition to your subwoofer. The trade off though is that bass above 80 Hz may sometimes become localized, meaning to say that you will be able to detect the location of the subwoofer. You may have to play with your crossover point a bit to find what best works for your situation.
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post #27 of 27 Old 12-28-2018, 07:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Great tips!!! Thanks!
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