Rythmik FV18, PB16 or DIY? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 3Likes
  • 1 Post By imureh
  • 1 Post By bear123
  • 1 Post By Ricci
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 16 Old 02-03-2019, 08:51 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Posts: 45
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 29 Post(s)
Liked: 1
Rythmik FV18, PB16 or DIY?

Hi guys,


I've had a DIY sonotube with 18" Mach5 IXL driver for quite some years but never got around to finishing the esthetics of the thing... Since I've had to move my HT into my living room after moving house, it is quite the eyesore and rather than attempting to polish a turd my wife has generously suggested that I get a commercial sub


The problem is that I live in Australia so the options aren't as great compared to the rest of the world...
I'm currently looking at the FV18 but where it would be (almost) a no-brainer in the US to choose this over the SVS PB16 just because of the price differential, the gap isn't that big over here.


Basically I have to get the driver and amp kit for the FV18 shipped to Australia after which I have to get the enclosure built by someone else over here (not doing full DIY myself anymore). I would then have to mount the driver and amp in there myself for final assembly and all in all this would cost me roughly $4000 AUD. The PB16 is currently listed for $4400 AUD over here so with a bit of negotiation I should be able to get it for the same money.


The benefit of getting the SVS for the same money is that it's as easy as walking into the shop and just forking over the money and taking it home. It will also probably hold its resale value better than the 'DIY Rythmik' I would assume, but personally I would favour the Rythmik just on the basis of its servo and the comments I've read on its low THD and articulateness even if it is the more difficult route and requires a longer wait...


BUT.... then that pesky thought starts creeping in that says if I'm going to have to get an enclosure built anyway... why not go completely DIY and consider other drivers alltogether?
At $4,000 AUD surely there must be something that can get built that would beat either the FV18 and PB16??


Really appreciate all your thoughts as I'm running around in circles on what to do here...
Tukkae is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 16 Old 02-04-2019, 06:32 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: NB, Canada
Posts: 1,006
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 543 Post(s)
Liked: 303
you could probably build 3-4 sealed dayton ultimax 18's for roughly the same price.

Not sure how much it would cost to ship to Australia.
http://www.theloudspeakerkit.com is an Australian DIY site that carries Dayton, you may want to check with them about the kit but they do have the driver: http://www.theloudspeakerkit.com/?rf=kw&kw=ultimax+18 .

Speakers: KEF Q100, Q300, Q750, Q650C / Fluance Signature Series Bookshelf, SX6, XL5F/ Mirage M-190 / DCM TP160S-CH Subwoofers: Outlaw Ultra X12 (x2) / BIC H100-II
Receiver: Denon AVR-X4500H, AVR-X1400H Integrated Amplifier: Yamaha A-S501/ Fosi Audio TPA3116 mini amp Extras: MiniDSP Umik-1 Amplifier: Emotiva BasX-A300
macgallant is offline  
post #3 of 16 Old 02-04-2019, 06:54 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: NB, Canada
Posts: 1,006
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 543 Post(s)
Liked: 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tukkae View Post
Hi guys,


I've had a DIY sonotube with 18" Mach5 IXL driver for quite some years but never got around to finishing the esthetics of the thing... Since I've had to move my HT into my living room after moving house, it is quite the eyesore and rather than attempting to polish a turd my wife has generously suggested that I get a commercial sub
every thought about a simple vinyl wrap?

Speakers: KEF Q100, Q300, Q750, Q650C / Fluance Signature Series Bookshelf, SX6, XL5F/ Mirage M-190 / DCM TP160S-CH Subwoofers: Outlaw Ultra X12 (x2) / BIC H100-II
Receiver: Denon AVR-X4500H, AVR-X1400H Integrated Amplifier: Yamaha A-S501/ Fosi Audio TPA3116 mini amp Extras: MiniDSP Umik-1 Amplifier: Emotiva BasX-A300
macgallant is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #4 of 16 Old 02-04-2019, 08:31 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
qguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,235
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 186 Post(s)
Liked: 106
Forget about the resale value of a Rythmik subwoofer KIT as there is none. WHY ? once you have tasted that servo goodness, there would be no reselling of the subwoofer. I live in Asia and getting a built Rythmik sub, was out of the question, I got the 15 inch KIT, never looked back since then.
qguy is offline  
post #5 of 16 Old 02-04-2019, 03:38 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Posts: 45
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 29 Post(s)
Liked: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by macgallant View Post
you could probably build 3-4 sealed dayton ultimax 18's for roughly the same price.

Not sure how much it would cost to ship to Australia.
http://www.theloudspeakerkit.com is an Australian DIY site that carries Dayton, you may want to check with them about the kit but they do have the driver: http://www.theloudspeakerkit.com/?rf=kw&kw=ultimax+18 .

Australian price for the Dayton is almost $800 AUD shipped. I've been quoted $1,300 for design and build of a sealed enclosure finished in piano black. But I'd also need an amp since my current Behringer EP2500 is starting to show its age (crackle in both of the channels). I'd probably go plate amp this time so that I can integrate it in the enclosure rather than making it a passive sub again. That'll be another $800 totalling to $2,900.

That's a great saving of course and if I would be comparing the F18 against it in terms of output the Dayton would come out on top. If I compare it against the FV18 however, the picture changes. The Rythmik loses out above 30Hz, but it does have more grunt below that. However that's hardly fair as I'm comparing ported versus sealed at that point.
The problem is that going ported with the Dayton I have no idea of what to expect as it has not been measured on data-bass. Also no idea if this will give me the articulate bass I'm looking for which I know I would get with an F18 but most likely also with the FV18. Going ported with the Dayton otoh may or may not result in too much bloat...


Definitely an option to consider though... Are there any other drivers that would come recommended?
Tukkae is offline  
post #6 of 16 Old 02-04-2019, 03:43 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Posts: 45
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 29 Post(s)
Liked: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by macgallant View Post
every thought about a simple vinyl wrap?

Yes I have, many times
But never got around to it and it still leaves the issue with the MDF end caps. Even bought a roll of carbon-look white vynil but it actually was too transparent so ended up not applying it. I've found that vynil doesn't like to stick to MDF either.

Regardless, I would never be able to turn this beast into a beauty ( I mean, it stands at 1.80m tall! , I'll see if I can take a pic later) even if I had chosen other vynil and would be able to treat the MDF so that it would accept the vynil, so doubtful it would ever pass the WAF
Tukkae is offline  
post #7 of 16 Old 02-04-2019, 03:48 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Posts: 45
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 29 Post(s)
Liked: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by qguy View Post
Forget about the resale value of a Rythmik subwoofer KIT as there is none. WHY ? once you have tasted that servo goodness, there would be no reselling of the subwoofer. I live in Asia and getting a built Rythmik sub, was out of the question, I got the 15 inch KIT, never looked back since then.

Yeah I had considered that actually
But you never know in life, maybe at some point I'll have a dedicated room again and by that time Rythmik has developed an FV21 at which point I might want to sell on the FV18
Tukkae is offline  
post #8 of 16 Old 02-04-2019, 05:12 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
imureh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 4,574
Mentioned: 217 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2865 Post(s)
Liked: 3590
Quote:
Originally Posted by tukkae View Post
yeah i had considered that actually :d
but you never know in life, maybe at some point i'll have a dedicated room again and by that time rythmik has developed an fv21 At which point i might want to sell on the fv18
fv28...
javan robinson likes this.

Subwoofers: Dual Rythmik FV18s Rev2 with Paper cone, BOSS Platform mini riser, 2 BK LFE
Speakers: PSA MTM-210 L/C/R - Klipsch 250S Surrounds, PSA MT 110sr Rear Surrounds, 4 x SVS Prime Elevation for Atmos
Video: Epson PowerLite Home Cinema 6500 UB; Room: 2100 cuft sealed on suspended floor
Receiver & Players: Denon X4400H, Oppo UDP-203, Roku Ultra. Apple TV, Minidsp 2X4 HD
imureh is online now  
post #9 of 16 Old 02-04-2019, 05:56 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
bear123's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: PA
Posts: 6,446
Mentioned: 78 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2655 Post(s)
Liked: 4150
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tukkae View Post
Australian price for the Dayton is almost $800 AUD shipped. I've been quoted $1,300 for design and build of a sealed enclosure finished in piano black. But I'd also need an amp since my current Behringer EP2500 is starting to show its age (crackle in both of the channels). I'd probably go plate amp this time so that I can integrate it in the enclosure rather than making it a passive sub again. That'll be another $800 totalling to $2,900.

That's a great saving of course and if I would be comparing the F18 against it in terms of output the Dayton would come out on top. If I compare it against the FV18 however, the picture changes. The Rythmik loses out above 30Hz, but it does have more grunt below that. However that's hardly fair as I'm comparing ported versus sealed at that point.
The problem is that going ported with the Dayton I have no idea of what to expect as it has not been measured on data-bass. Also no idea if this will give me the articulate bass I'm looking for which I know I would get with an F18 but most likely also with the FV18. Going ported with the Dayton otoh may or may not result in too much bloat...


Definitely an option to consider though... Are there any other drivers that would come recommended?
The Dayton driver has excellent sound quality with very low distortion. I'd take an educated guess that it will have distortion just as low as the F18, and does it without servo. Servo is one way to achieve lower distortion, but excellent driver design is another. This is not a knock against Rythmik or their sound quality nor how they achieve it. Just saying, Rythmik with servo does not automatically make them have better sound quality or be more articulate than any and all other subs. The 18" drivers I just picked up, in 4 ft^3 sealed cabs handily outperform the F18...similar down low but a big lead up top. However, it is probably, arguably, one of the best all around 18" drivers made, and comes with a price.

The UM-18 is hard to beat from a value and sound quality standpoint. Whereas I can get a UM-18 for $325 or so, you have to spend around double to get a better driver. Will they be twice as good? Probably not. Again, it's just a very hard to beat value, and one could argue that you could put two of them in a small dual opposed cab and outperform a $600 driver in the same size cab in every way, top to bottom.

The question is, do you want a turn key sub with a warranty, limiters in place to keep the driver safe, etc? On the other hand, with DIY, once you have a couple of UM-18's in sealed cabs, you can easily change over to ported cabs if you ever chose to without buying entirely new subs...just new cabs. I'd take a look at the Crest Pro-lite 7.5 for amplification. If you want the value leader, the Inuke6000 dsp is the most bang for the buck...just swap in some Noctua fans for $30 or so for a silent setup. I guess its called the NX6000 now. It's the perfect amount of power for a pair of UM-18's, and excellent DSP capability.

The Dayton driver is $800???

It's a tough call.
jamiebosco likes this.
bear123 is online now  
post #10 of 16 Old 02-05-2019, 02:16 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Posts: 45
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 29 Post(s)
Liked: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
The Dayton driver has excellent sound quality with very low distortion. I'd take an educated guess that it will have distortion just as low as the F18, and does it without servo. Servo is one way to achieve lower distortion, but excellent driver design is another. This is not a knock against Rythmik or their sound quality nor how they achieve it. Just saying, Rythmik with servo does not automatically make them have better sound quality or be more articulate than any and all other subs. The 18" drivers I just picked up, in 4 ft^3 sealed cabs handily outperform the F18...similar down low but a big lead up top. However, it is probably, arguably, one of the best all around 18" drivers made, and comes with a price.

The UM-18 is hard to beat from a value and sound quality standpoint. Whereas I can get a UM-18 for $325 or so, you have to spend around double to get a better driver. Will they be twice as good? Probably not. Again, it's just a very hard to beat value, and one could argue that you could put two of them in a small dual opposed cab and outperform a $600 driver in the same size cab in every way, top to bottom.

The question is, do you want a turn key sub with a warranty, limiters in place to keep the driver safe, etc? On the other hand, with DIY, once you have a couple of UM-18's in sealed cabs, you can easily change over to ported cabs if you ever chose to without buying entirely new subs...just new cabs. I'd take a look at the Crest Pro-lite 7.5 for amplification. If you want the value leader, the Inuke6000 dsp is the most bang for the buck...just swap in some Noctua fans for $30 or so for a silent setup. I guess its called the NX6000 now. It's the perfect amount of power for a pair of UM-18's, and excellent DSP capability.

The Dayton driver is $800???

It's a tough call.

I get what you are saying with regards to the sealed option and F18 vs UM18, but would the same still apply in a ported design? Would the servo add any advantage in ported versus the UM18?



Hmmm you gave me interesting idea on the dual opposed: do the drivers need to be identical in such a design? This could otherwise be a good way to repurpose my Mach5 IXL driver (btw the Mach5 IXL is not the same as the UXL measured on data-bass. The UXL does outperform the UM18 in output but no idea how the IXL relates to the UXL)

I was thinking of having the IXL built into a separate cab but could potentially use it in this design instead?


I'm not looking for the convenience of having a warranty and the likes. Just can't be bothered doing the actual build myself anymore. And that's why I started to think along the lines of the PB16 money being almost equal.

I would like the convenience of an auto switching sub however, so would like a built-in amp rather than something like the iNuke. I've had the EP2500 up until now and constantly having to swith it on an off is something I'd like to avoid
I don't have it in a separate room and while I've built in a different fan, it is still audible enough that I swith the amp off when not in use.


The Dayton is 800 AUD so $577 USD.

I did find it a little cheaper in the meantime though shipped from the US but still plenty more than what you're paying for it
Tukkae is offline  
post #11 of 16 Old 02-05-2019, 10:54 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
jamiebosco's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,245
Mentioned: 21 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 757 Post(s)
Liked: 1869
Quote:
Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
The Dayton driver is $800???
We call it the "Australia Tax",anything AV related is 2 to 3+ times more expensive lol

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
TV: Panasonic P65ST60 AVR: Denon X4000 Speakers: PSA MTM-210C (Centre), PSA MTM-210 (Left & Right), PSA MT-110 (Surrounds) Subwoofers: Dual Seaton SubMersives
jamiebosco is offline  
post #12 of 16 Old 02-05-2019, 02:30 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
bear123's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: PA
Posts: 6,446
Mentioned: 78 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2655 Post(s)
Liked: 4150
With the UM18 being that high for you, I would probably check to see what my options were with something like the B&C 21SW152 or 21DS115. I don't know if pricing would be better for you there compared to the Dayton....maybe B&C has better overseas distribution or availability. These drivers are quite a bit higher than the UM18 here, around double.

How much is the PSA S3000/3010 etc etc over there? I think it would match or exceed the F18 in performance.
bear123 is online now  
post #13 of 16 Old 02-05-2019, 05:39 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
jamiebosco's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,245
Mentioned: 21 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 757 Post(s)
Liked: 1869
Quote:
Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
With the UM18 being that high for you, I would probably check to see what my options were with something like the B&C 21SW152 or 21DS115. I don't know if pricing would be better for you there compared to the Dayton....maybe B&C has better overseas distribution or availability. These drivers are quite a bit higher than the UM18 here, around double.

How much is the PSA S3000/3010 etc etc over there? I think it would match or exceed the F18 in performance.
the PSA S3000i available on clearance (I'd say the S3010 is on the way) for $2600


last time I checked B&C drivers were not available in Aus, unless you import yourself,
Even the Dayton PA460 is $400 over here

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
TV: Panasonic P65ST60 AVR: Denon X4000 Speakers: PSA MTM-210C (Centre), PSA MTM-210 (Left & Right), PSA MT-110 (Surrounds) Subwoofers: Dual Seaton SubMersives
jamiebosco is offline  
post #14 of 16 Old 02-05-2019, 08:10 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Posts: 45
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 29 Post(s)
Liked: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
With the UM18 being that high for you, I would probably check to see what my options were with something like the B&C 21SW152 or 21DS115. I don't know if pricing would be better for you there compared to the Dayton....maybe B&C has better overseas distribution or availability. These drivers are quite a bit higher than the UM18 here, around double.

How much is the PSA S3000/3010 etc etc over there? I think it would match or exceed the F18 in performance.

I won't be able to get away with a 21" WAF-wise. I would like to keep the cab as small as possible and in moving away from a 5'11" sonosub I don't want to get stuck in a situation where I just end up swapping a behemoth cylinder in for a behemoth cube


I have never really wanted to consider the PSA's purely from an esthetics pov. I don't like the finish they apply and while they now offer more options on certain subs, they still don't look the greatest to me. Since this is going into the living room, this is something I will effectively need to take into consideration.


I actually do like the size and look of the marty cubes attached...
Maybe I just go dual cabs and reuse the IXL in one and a UM18 in another.

In refreshing my memory on the IXL the driver is aimed at larger ported cabs though (in contrast to the UXL which is fine in smaller sealed cabs like in a similar vein to the UM18) so not sure I could get away with having identical cabs built...
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	031001.jpg
Views:	43
Size:	99.7 KB
ID:	2520900  
Tukkae is offline  
post #15 of 16 Old 02-05-2019, 08:19 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Posts: 45
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 29 Post(s)
Liked: 1
One thing I've noticed on data-bass though: the UM18 and UXL18 were driven using a K20 amp which offers an insane amount of power as opposed to the amp for the F18 (which is no slouch of course but still... in comparison). So in terms of the measurements and the F18 losing out to the UXL and UM18 how should I interpret this?
Would driving a UM18 in a sealed cab with a similar amp make the driver a lesser performer compared to the Rythmik F18? If I remember correctly then power is very important in a sealed cab design with a driver this size to overcome internal resistance and get the excursion required so if the UXL18 and UM18 were supplied with a disproportionate amount of power compared to the F18 then this hardly seems fair when comparing what the drivers themselves are capable of.
Tukkae is offline  
post #16 of 16 Old 02-06-2019, 11:11 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Ricci's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Louisville KY
Posts: 5,502
Mentioned: 167 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 389 Post(s)
Liked: 910
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tukkae View Post
One thing I've noticed on data-bass though: the UM18 and UXL18 were driven using a K20 amp which offers an insane amount of power as opposed to the amp for the F18 (which is no slouch of course but still... in comparison). So in terms of the measurements and the F18 losing out to the UXL and UM18 how should I interpret this?
Would driving a UM18 in a sealed cab with a similar amp make the driver a lesser performer compared to the Rythmik F18? If I remember correctly then power is very important in a sealed cab design with a driver this size to overcome internal resistance and get the excursion required so if the UXL18 and UM18 were supplied with a disproportionate amount of power compared to the F18 then this hardly seems fair when comparing what the drivers themselves are capable of.
You are correct.


The passive cabs / drivers tested with the big amp are not a simple direct comparison to a finished active system.
They can be compared but it is not as simple as looking at the burst charts. The burst data gets greatly inflated starting around 40 or 50Hz and above where the driver excursion stops being a limiting factor. In general excursion decreases greatly as frequency rises allowing more power to be dumped into the driver VERY BRIEFLY to generate large burst output numbers. The data for the passive systems with the big amp are primarily information that should be used to help select a cab design / appropriate amplifier and create a finished speaker/cab/amp/dsp "system". The amplifier voltages that are applied are listed for the passive tests for the purpose of determining where the driver is losing composure, why and what an appropriate amount of voltage / current / power would be without unnecessarily endangering the driver. The impedance of the speaker being tested the applied voltage and the compression and distortion information can then be used to select an amplifier platform that is appropriate to the job at hand. Testing of active systems have already had this process completed since they are considered a finished system.


In general what must be considered about the passive burst tests with the big amp is that the lowest maximum voltage shown on the chart in the bandwidth of interest should be considered the maximum for an amplifier matched to the speaker. The easy route is to compare the maximum long term sweeps as these are necessarily limited to a realistic amount of amplifier input. On the burst charts it is best to only compare the deep bass frequencies that are limited by the speaker excursion or distortion. There's plenty of info there to make these comparisons but you can't just glance at the SPL from the burst charts alone. The UM18's SPL is inflated a good amount at 50Hz and above over what it would be with a typical amp that is a good match for it.


For example in the UM18 sealed cab test chart note that the max SPL column is limited to 127 volts at the 10 and 12.5Hz bands. This is at the ragged edge of the driver excursion with mechanical damage likely occurring shortly after. notice that from 50-125Hz the chart is green indicating that the amp was driven all of the way into heavy clipping with the bursts and was the limiting factor. The voltage that this occurs at is unknown exactly (voltage rails should allow 318.5 volts) but it's WAY up there. It's enough to blow the driver to pieces at 30Hz and under. The system will survive 127 volts briefly at any frequency though. I would personally consider that the absolute maximum limit for this driver and cab combo. The maximum long term sweep was at 117 volts which is slightly under the maximum from the burst chart as expected. that's why I consider it the better apples/apples quick comparison of output capabilities between a finished active system and a passive cab test with the big amp.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	UM18-22 SEALED CEA-2010 CHART.png
Views:	37
Size:	57.8 KB
ID:	2521182  
bear123 likes this.
Ricci is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply Subwoofers, Bass, and Transducers

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off