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post #1 of 31 Old 02-08-2019, 10:31 AM - Thread Starter
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Trying to choose a sub(s)

Hey all-

Finally moved out of an apartment and into a house, so I've been taking the opportunity to upgrade my home theater setup (Klipsch speakers, RP-280FA, RP-450C and RP-250S, running on a Denon AVR-X4500h). I'm trying to choose a replacement for my old Yamaha SW315 subwoofer which has served me well over the years, but cannot keep up with my new main speakers and the new larger room. I've been lurking and read through a number of posts trying to get my bearings on important aspects of choosing a subwoofer, so here is some of the pertinent information:
  • The home theater is a section (about one quarter) of a larger overall room (24'x30'), the house has an open floor plan
  • The house is on a slab, so the floor is cement (wood flooring and an area rug in the HT, but I know this is working against me)
  • Space is a bit of an issue, more to keep the Mrs. happy, she doesn't want speakers everywhere (in this case gigantic "ugly" subwoofers)
  • I love bass

I think I have it narrowed down to three subs. Given the cement floor and open floor plan I recognize that ported is the way to go. (the reduced size of sealed is very appealing but at the end of the day I want this to sound great.) In a perfect world I'd probably get two FV18's and call it a day, but I think they are just too big for the room. (Or a G25HP if it weren't for the floor) So the contenders are:
  • Rythmik FV15HP
  • Monoprice Monolith 15"
  • Klipsch R-115sw

I realize the Rythmik and Monolith are in a somewhat different category than the Klipsch, I'll admit I love the look of the copper cones, and having matching subs would look slick. It seems like a couple times a year R-115sw go on sale for $400-$500, so I'd wait for a sale (I would not pay full price for them). I am open to other suggestions (I imagine HSU will get thrown out there). Overall budget could go as high was $2500, though spending less would be great.

Some questions:
  • The Rythmik FV18 seems to receive a lot of praise, is the FV15HP a solid "little brother"?
  • It seems that getting two subs versus one is the way to go, any thoughts on two 12" versus one 15" (for any of the three above)

Many thanks in advance.

-Nick

Last edited by tackhouse1; 02-08-2019 at 10:53 AM.
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post #2 of 31 Old 02-08-2019, 10:39 AM - Thread Starter
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Some additional information I neglected to include:
  • The Monolith and FV15HP are probably about as physically large as I can go
  • This setup will be used for a mix of movies and music, optimally I'd like a sub that works well at both
  • Appearance is a factor, it will make it an easier sell with the Mrs. She'd approve of the Klipsch. I'd likely spend the extra money for the piano black FV15HP.
  • I have no major time constraints
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post #3 of 31 Old 02-08-2019, 12:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tackhouse1 View Post
Some additional information I neglected to include:
  • The Monolith and FV15HP are probably about as physically large as I can go
  • This setup will be used for a mix of movies and music, optimally I'd like a sub that works well at both
  • Appearance is a factor, it will make it an easier sell with the Mrs. She'd approve of the Klipsch. I'd likely spend the extra money for the piano black FV15HP.
  • I have no major time constraints
Are you limited to only one sub, forever? A space that large would benefit from having 2 subs. If you're only ever going to have just one sub, if it were me, I'd find a spot for either the FV25HP or JTR Captivator 2400.

If you think you'll end up with dual subs, then either the FV15HP or Monolith 15 would be a solid choice for now and to add a second one down the road. For me I'd go with the Rytmik if for nothing more than having better CS.
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post #4 of 31 Old 02-08-2019, 12:35 PM
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Show the Mrs. some pics of the subs online and get her input if that's a deciding factor. $2500 will get you two Monolith 15" with free shipping. My girlfriend likes the way they look, but she really doesn't care, lol. You can always buy just 1 and see how you like the way it sounds. I have a single M15 on a wood floor over concrete slab and it performs great. Some tweaking of my AVR and sub and it hits in the low teens without much noticeable port noise now. And you don't have to worry about Monoprice CS because I can give you Monolith's Business Unit Manager's email.
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post #5 of 31 Old 02-08-2019, 01:05 PM
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Your room is 24x30 or is 1/4 of the 24x30 room?
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post #6 of 31 Old 02-08-2019, 01:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by golden78 View Post
Your room is 24x30 or is 1/4 of the 24x30 room?
Overall room is 24x30, the HT takes up approximately 1/4 of that total space.
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post #7 of 31 Old 02-08-2019, 03:54 PM
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I have 2 monolith 12s and love them but they are not small by any means . I think they look pretty good but thats ne. They are more long than tall or wide. Make sure you and more importantly the wife realize how big that or monolith 15 or the rythmik are . That being said I would say go dual hsu vtf3mk5 or monolith 12 's and that would only cost you like 1600$ for 2monolith 12s or like 1700$ for dual hsu vtf3mk5s. . That size room probably be best dual subs help with nulls and maybe invest in a umik1 and use rew to get most out them and see wjat is going on in your room. The hsu might go a little deeper than the monolith 12 but the monolith 12 is very tight and almost no distortion and It has a different sound to it to me than other subs hard to describe.

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post #8 of 31 Old 02-08-2019, 04:48 PM
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I'm a fan of the Rythmik option for the performance, customer service and reliability, I also think it's the more aesthetically pleasing option. The klipsch 115 is not remotely in the same league but I do understand wanting the matching cones.

Are you limited to one sub or are you going dual? (now or eventually)
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post #9 of 31 Old 02-08-2019, 06:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by golden78 View Post
I have 2 monolith 12s and love them but they are not small by any means . I think they look pretty good but thats ne. They are more long than tall or wide. Make sure you and more importantly the wife realize how big that or monolith 15 or the rythmik are . That being said I would say go dual hsu vtf2mk5 or monolith 12 's and that would only cost you like 1400-1600$ for 2monolith 12s or like 1200 for dual hsu mk5s. . That size room probably be best dual subs help with nulls and maybe invest in a umik1 and use rew to get most out them and see wjat is going on in your room. The hsu will go a little deeper than the monolith 12 but the monolith 12 is very tight and almost no distortion . It has a different sound to it to me than other subs.
Where are you getting the numbers showing the VTF-2 MK5 goes deeper than the Monolith 12?
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post #10 of 31 Old 02-08-2019, 06:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by golden78 View Post
Your room is 24x30 or is 1/4 of the 24x30 room?
Unfortunately, unlike speakers that only care about there physical locations, to the MLP.
Due to the nature of physic for lower frequencies. Bass try to fill all open spaces, the reason the house next door can hear the bass of what you are playing.

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Originally Posted by Kini62 View Post
Are you limited to only one sub, forever? A space that large would benefit from having 2 subs. If you're only ever going to have just one sub, if it were me, I'd find a spot for either the FV25HP or JTR Captivator 2400.

If you think you'll end up with dual subs, then either the FV15HP or Monolith 15 would be a solid choice for now and to add a second one down the road. For me I'd go with the Rytmik if for nothing more than having better CS.
Big +1, this is a big room for the OP @tackhouse1 to fill.
Get one of the bigger sub now, and add another one later is always the best way to go.

Or if single, a very powerful one to be done with-it, as the two first choices you mention;
http://www.rythmikaudio.com/FV25HP.html
http://jtrspeakers.com/captivator-2400.html
Or who knows, since the OP like his bass. Another one is always possible to be added later


Ray
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Last edited by darthray; 02-08-2019 at 07:19 PM.
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post #11 of 31 Old 02-08-2019, 07:00 PM
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Where are you getting the numbers showing the VTF-2 MK5 goes deeper than the Monolith 12?
Aww crap sorry! I was having two different conversations going same time back and forth writing my bad. The vtf2mk5 is pretty close to like 20 hz but falls off faster with much higher distortion at lower frequencies. Wjat i was talking about was the bigger more expensive vtf3mk5.. the more expensive vtf3mk5 plays a lower than vtf2 with less distortion but it's a 15 inch driver amd like 150$ more expemsive its like 860 shipped right now vs 800 monolith 12. I like the monolith 12s better to my ears but that's me and if can catch a 15% off ebay coupon can save 100$ off monolith from their ebay site bit who knows wjen they'll have one again that's valid on electronics. Either way they are both great subs ..
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post #12 of 31 Old 02-08-2019, 07:19 PM
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If not gonna try stay way under budget then id I agree with @darthray . if u and mrs cool with $$ and size of sub go big as you can for that space.. but its your money but if you are ok with maxing 2500$ budget out get maybe 2 monolith 15 or rythmik or hsu 15 inch sub now or just 1 and add 1 shortly down the road. That is a huge space to fill doesmt matter that your only "using part room" if it's all open. Plus if your seating is inthe middle of room you probably will have big null at mlp with one sub but you may need invest in a mic and rew to find all that out. Good luck. I'm actually going Sunday to drive and pickup a monolith 15 to add to my 2 monolith 12s =) so you know what sub I'd vote for.. 🙄
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Last edited by golden78; 02-08-2019 at 07:25 PM.
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post #13 of 31 Old 02-08-2019, 07:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Justin Andrew Parks View Post
I'm a fan of the Rythmik option for the performance, customer service and reliability, I also think it's the more aesthetically pleasing option. The klipsch 115 is not remotely in the same league but I do understand wanting the matching cones.

Are you limited to one sub or are you going dual? (now or eventually)

+1, it should not even be in the equation


Ray
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post #14 of 31 Old 02-08-2019, 07:28 PM
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Originally Posted by golden78 View Post
If not gonna try stay way under budget then id I agree with @darthray . if u and mrs cool with $$ and size of sub go big as you can for that space.. but its your money but if you are ok with maxing 2500$ budget out get maybe 2 monolith 15 or rythmik or hsu 15 inch sub now or just 1 and add 1 shortly down the road. That is a huge space to fill doesmt matter that your only "using part room" if it's all open. Plus if your seating is inthe middle of room you probably will have big null at mlp with one sub but you may need invest in a mic and rew to find all that out. Good luck. I'm actually going Sunday to drive and pickup a monolith 15 to add to my 2 monolith 12s =) so you know what sub I'd vote for.. 🙄
Very much agree

Nothing wrong with a personal preference, good luck to integrate your third subs.
Just in case you are not aware of this Guide;
Guide to Subwoofer Calibration and Bass Preferences
It is a good read, but do have the feeling you know about this one since you mention using the REW

After all. Money and the WAF, win at the end.

That said, I think I found my future two subs
The JTR 4000 is too big for my room due to my screen;
http://jtrspeakers.com/captivator-4000ulf.html
But I might be able to fit these;
http://www.rythmikaudio.com/FV25HP.html, thanks to @Kini62
Only room restriction for me, no WAF.
And lots of patience, to save money when it come to budget.


Ray

Last edited by darthray; 02-08-2019 at 07:50 PM.
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post #15 of 31 Old 02-09-2019, 04:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Many thanks for all the responses so far. To answer some questions, yes I can have two subwoofers (either now or eventually adding the second). I agree with the consensus that given the very large space (approx 5950 ft3) and the cement floor I definitely need ported and dual subs would help ensure good output. The Klipsch R-115sw is out of the running. With the comments I've begun to give HSU VTF-15H MK2 some additional consideration.

Looking at the physical dimensions of each sub:

Monolith 15 is h.26.8" x w.17.7" x d.27.6" and 128 lbs

The FV15HP is h.24" x w.18" x d.26" (with the grill) and 115 lbs

The VTF-15H is h.25" x w.18" x d.28" (with Grill, Feet & Amp) and 110 lbs

Physically I feel like it's a wash. Yes the Monolith is 3" taller but it doesn't seem like much (maybe in person it would be more substantial?) Same with the weight, 18 lbs doesn't seem like a big deal once you're over 100 lbs anyways.

Price is definitely something I'm considering

Monolith $1299
FV15HP $1399
VTF-15H $849 (presidents day sale)

Reading through the comments it seems like the Monolith and FV15HP can go a bit lower with lower distortion, wondering if it's worth the price difference.

I will say the HSU is probably my least favorite appearance-wise (I don't completely hate it, but I like the other two better...

Ugh decisions decisions....

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post #16 of 31 Old 02-09-2019, 04:55 PM
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Originally Posted by tackhouse1 View Post
Many thanks for all the responses so far. To answer some questions, yes I can have two subwoofers (either now or eventually adding the second). I agree with the consensus that given the very large space (approx 5950 ft3) and the cement floor I definitely need ported and dual subs would help ensure good output. The Klipsch R-115sw is out of the running. With the comments I've begun to give HSU VTF-15H MK2 some additional consideration.



Looking at the physical dimensions of each sub:



Monolith 15 is h.26.8" x w.17.7" x d.27.6" and 128 lbs



The FV15HP is h.24" x w.18" x d.26" (with the grill) and 115 lbs



The VTF-15H is h.25" x w.18" x d.28" (with Grill, Feet & Amp) and 110 lbs



Physically I feel like it's a wash. Yes the Monolith is 3" taller but it doesn't seem like much (maybe in person it would be more substantial?) Same with the weight, 18 lbs doesn't seem like a big deal once you're over 100 lbs anyways.



Price is definitely something I'm considering



Monolith $1299

FV15HP $1399

VTF-15H $849 (presidents day sale)



Reading through the comments it seems like the Monolith and FV15HP can go a bit lower with lower distortion, wondering if it's worth the price difference.



I will say the HSU is probably my least favorite appearance-wise (I don't completely hate it, but I like the other two better...



Ugh decisions decisions....


The HSU vtf3-mk5 is essentially the same sub as the 15h except for a slightly smaller box and balanced inputs on the amp. Output wise they are very similar. Just something to consider if you’re worried about looks.


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post #17 of 31 Old 02-09-2019, 06:36 PM - Thread Starter
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So I just realized I was not factoring in shipping on the HSU of $173 per unit. So it's actually $1022 :: facepalm ::

My question now: is the Monolith worth an extra $277, and FV15 worth an extra $377 as compared to the VTF-15H? ($554 and $754 for dual subs)

There seem to be many people who are happy with all three of these subs. Any of them will be a night and day improvement over the sub I've been using for the last 10 years.


I looked at the manufacturer SPL / Frequency charts for all three subs, but I'll admit I'm having difficulty drawing and conclusions (not sure if they are even directly comparable). I also looked at Data-Bass.com I can see that than FV15 will play louder and lower than the VTF-15H (108 to 104 at 20Hz). I know the Monolith is not on Data-Bass, does anyone know how it compares from a numbers standpoint?

I feel like I'm getting closer. Many thanks for the continued help.

-Nick

Video: TCL 75R617
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tackhouse1 View Post
So I just realized I was not factoring in shipping on the HSU of $173 per unit. So it's actually $1022 :: facepalm ::



My question now: is the Monolith worth an extra $277, and FV15 worth an extra $377 as compared to the VTF-15H? ($554 and $754 for dual subs)



There seem to be many people who are happy with all three of these subs. Any of them will be a night and day improvement over the sub I've been using for the last 10 years.





I looked at the manufacturer SPL / Frequency charts for all three subs, but I'll admit I'm having difficulty drawing and conclusions (not sure if they are even directly comparable). I also looked at Data-Bass.com I can see that than FV15 will play louder and lower than the VTF-15H (108 to 104 at 20Hz). I know the Monolith is not on Data-Bass, does anyone know how it compares from a numbers standpoint?



I feel like I'm getting closer. Many thanks for the continued help.



-Nick


The data bass numbers are for the first HSU 15h. Not the current one. The current one has a more powerful amp, more output, and is supposedly tighter in terms of sound quality. The output numbers for the 2nd generation 15h are on the HSU website. Just scroll down after the graphs and you’ll see the output numbers. The output numbers are higher across the board than the rythmik 15hp except for maybe below 16hz. Same thing for the vtf3-mk5.


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Quote:
Originally Posted by tackhouse1 View Post
So I just realized I was not factoring in shipping on the HSU of $173 per unit. So it's actually $1022 :: facepalm ::

My question now: is the Monolith worth an extra $277, and FV15 worth an extra $377 as compared to the VTF-15H? ($554 and $754 for dual subs)

There seem to be many people who are happy with all three of these subs. Any of them will be a night and day improvement over the sub I've been using for the last 10 years.


I looked at the manufacturer SPL / Frequency charts for all three subs, but I'll admit I'm having difficulty drawing and conclusions (not sure if they are even directly comparable). I also looked at Data-Bass.com I can see that than FV15 will play louder and lower than the VTF-15H (108 to 104 at 20Hz). I know the Monolith is not on Data-Bass, does anyone know how it compares from a numbers standpoint?

I feel like I'm getting closer. Many thanks for the continued help.

-Nick
If music is a big priority for you, then I would say the Rythmik is worth the extra $$. Monoliths have a great reputation and I have yet to hear one. The main thing that has me wary of them is the customer service issues that have been brought up. I can speak first hand and say Rythmiks CS has been nothing short of amazing. HSU is typically regarded as the best bang for your buck but I don't think it's as good looking as the Rythmik and I've gotten mixed reviews on their CS. - just my thoughts and opinions 🙂
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Let me throw a monkey wrench in here and suggest you get a pair of Seaton JS-12s. (I know, I know, I'm not recommending a Rythmik, stay calm.) Yes, they're sealed but they punch way above their weight, and being sealed they roll off more gradually, so they sound like they go lower than the rated 20Hz. They have excellent WAF (small) with multiple finishes available. With your bigger space you really want 2 subs, and you can go amazingly far with two pretty small boxes here.

Most importantly, they sound great. When we did the meet here in Houston and they hooked up a pair of these, I was stunned at how well they filled the big space and how clean the sound was. The big JTR was ultimately louder but I didn't think it was any better sounding—that went to (of course) the Rythmik FV18.

I love my L22 but if I were going to do it all over I'd probably have bought a JS-12 and then added a second one later. I probably can't finagle a second L22 for WAF reasons so I'll probably ultimately end up with an L12 closer to the listening position, and really a pair of JS-12s would have been better. Live and learn.
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post #21 of 31 Old 02-15-2019, 08:36 AM - Thread Starter
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Just wanted to provide an update. First many thanks again for all of the responses, they are genuinely appreciated. I ended up pulling the trigger on a FV15HP, went with matte black and the silver cone. Part of me wanted to get the Monolith, but the larger physical size would have made it a harder fit in my space. Quite excited for the Rythmik to arrive! Will likely be getting a second one in the next 6 months or so.

-Nick

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post #22 of 31 Old 02-15-2019, 01:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tackhouse1 View Post
Just wanted to provide an update. First many thanks again for all of the responses, they are genuinely appreciated. I ended up pulling the trigger on a FV15HP, went with matte black and the silver cone. Part of me wanted to get the Monolith, but the larger physical size would have made it a harder fit in my space. Quite excited for the Rythmik to arrive! Will likely be getting a second one in the next 6 months or so.

-Nick
Awesome. It's going to put a big smile on your face after using the other sub, and will have you replaying movies just to hear and feel some real bass.
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post #23 of 31 Old 02-15-2019, 01:13 PM
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Just wanted to provide an update. First many thanks again for all of the responses, they are genuinely appreciated. I ended up pulling the trigger on a FV15HP, went with matte black and the silver cone. Part of me wanted to get the Monolith, but the larger physical size would have made it a harder fit in my space. Quite excited for the Rythmik to arrive! Will likely be getting a second one in the next 6 months or so.

-Nick

FV15HP has been around a long time and been one of the better options for 15" subs. It's even better now that Rythmik addressed the port noise issue and changed the ports. You should be in for a treat.
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Subs>RBH I-12e/I-12. HSU VTF-15H mk2. Monolith THX 12(x2)/THX 10(x2). XTZ 1X12. SVS PB-1000(x2). Speakers>JBL 270/235c/230/225c, Arena 130/125c. Jamo S807/S803. Infinity P363/163. Sony CS3/CS8/CS5. QA 3020i/3090Ci, 2020i/2000c. Monolith Cinema 5 bs. Polk RTiA1/CsiA4. Other Audio>Sony MDR-Z7m2, WH-XB700, XB32, XB31. Sennheiser HD58X, HD4.50, PC37X. SIVGA SV004. HyperX Cloud PS4 HS. Plantronics RIG500 Pro HS. LG FH6,RK8,RK7,PK5. UE Boom3.
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post #24 of 31 Old 02-19-2019, 10:10 AM
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Hey all-


  • Rythmik FV15HP
  • Monoprice Monolith 15"
  • Klipsch R-115sw
I was in the same boat few months ago. Went with a pair of Rythmik FV15HPs.

My Build Thread
HT - Seymour Centerstage XD 2.39:1 133" W| JVC X790R | Denon AVR | QSC DPA 4.2 | ATI AT528NC | Procella P8/P5V | Revel C763L | Rythmik FV15HP x2
Living Room - LG OLED 65" | Yamaha 2060 | Monolith 3x200 | KEF Q900 L/R | Paradigm Millenia CC | Polk Surrounds | Monolith 12" Subs x 2
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post #25 of 31 Old 02-26-2019, 10:41 AM - Thread Starter
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So yet one more update....

I had been waiting on my FV15HP, which is on back order till the end of the month. Monoprice had a surprise 20% off sale today, so I was able to get two Monolith 15's for $1999 out the door. For an extra $525 over what I was paying Rythmik I couldn't pass this up....

https://slickdeals.net/f/12874210-mo...?src=frontpage

Just to add, as everyone had mentioned Rythmik's customer service is truly top notch. I communicated with them on a couple occasions regarding the cone color, shipping options etc.... and received prompt responses every time (including 7pm on a Saturday). I know I'm giving some of that up with the Monolith's...
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post #26 of 31 Old 02-26-2019, 11:57 AM
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So yet one more update....

I had been waiting on my FV15HP, which is on back order till the end of the month. Monoprice had a surprise 20% off sale today, so I was able to get two Monolith 15's for $1999 out the door. For an extra $525 over what I was paying Rythmik I couldn't pass this up....[IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/eek.gif[/IMG]

https://slickdeals.net/f/12874210-mo...?src=frontpage

Just to add, as everyone had mentioned Rythmik's customer service is truly top notch. I communicated with them on a couple occasions regarding the cone color, shipping options etc.... and received prompt responses every time (including 7pm on a Saturday). I know I'm giving some of that up with the Monolith's...
You won't be disappointed. That's a great price on great subwoofers.

If you have any problems with the subs or have questions, you can email Hobie and he'll help you.

[email protected]
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post #27 of 31 Old 02-26-2019, 03:08 PM
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So yet one more update....

I had been waiting on my FV15HP, which is on back order till the end of the month. Monoprice had a surprise 20% off sale today, so I was able to get two Monolith 15's for $1999 out the door. For an extra $525 over what I was paying Rythmik I couldn't pass this up....

https://slickdeals.net/f/12874210-mo...?src=frontpage

Just to add, as everyone had mentioned Rythmik's customer service is truly top notch. I communicated with them on a couple occasions regarding the cone color, shipping options etc.... and received prompt responses every time (including 7pm on a Saturday). I know I'm giving some of that up with the Monolith's...

The Monolith subs are top-notch. Less than $2,000/shipped for dual Monolith 15's is basically deal of the year type of offer for some amazing subs.

Subs>RBH I-12e/I-12. HSU VTF-15H mk2. Monolith THX 12(x2)/THX 10(x2). XTZ 1X12. SVS PB-1000(x2). Speakers>JBL 270/235c/230/225c, Arena 130/125c. Jamo S807/S803. Infinity P363/163. Sony CS3/CS8/CS5. QA 3020i/3090Ci, 2020i/2000c. Monolith Cinema 5 bs. Polk RTiA1/CsiA4. Other Audio>Sony MDR-Z7m2, WH-XB700, XB32, XB31. Sennheiser HD58X, HD4.50, PC37X. SIVGA SV004. HyperX Cloud PS4 HS. Plantronics RIG500 Pro HS. LG FH6,RK8,RK7,PK5. UE Boom3.
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post #28 of 31 Old 03-01-2019, 09:31 AM - Thread Starter
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Looked what arrived today....I'm quite excited to get these setup....
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post #29 of 31 Old 03-01-2019, 09:59 AM
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Good job on those Monolith 15"!

I auditioned it with the Gain maxed out and @ Extend EQ (basically the setting that make it sound the worst) for 3 weeks. It is just one of the greatest sounding sub I have heard period. It is extremely hard to make it chuff. I was much more impressed with it than the Rythmik FV18.

Speakers: L/C/R: JTR Neosis 212HT. Surrounds: Jamo C103, KEF Q100, Polk Audio RTiA3.
Subwoofer: JTR Captivator 4000ULF.
AVR: Denon AVR-X4400H. TV: Samsung UN75NU8000FXZA.

FS: Jamo C103, KEF Q100 and Polk RTiA3
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post #30 of 31 Old 03-01-2019, 10:18 AM
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Looked what arrived today....I'm quite excited to get these setup....
Uh-oh... there's trouble...
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