SVS sb 13 ultra too big? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 21 Old 02-09-2019, 02:47 AM - Thread Starter
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Question SVS sb 13 ultra too big?

Hi all,

I'm thinking about picking up the SVS sb 13 ultra for my home theater, but I'm not sure if it is the right choice. I want big bass I can feel for movies, and also if I'm listening to R&B or EDM, depending on my mood. It will be paired with some Keff R7s.

My living room is attached to my dining room, and the combined volume is about 5000 cubic feet. The shape of my room is shown in the attachment. Not sure if this is relevant, but the entire right and bottom walls are glass, which can be covered by a thick curtain. Floor is tiles.

Would the sb-4000 be a better fit, or perhaps something entirely different? The Kef sales guy suggested the Kube 12b to me but I think it might be underpowered, and I am not particularly interested in getting two subs. Are complex dsp room equalization features on the sub important or relevant if my avr has audyssey multeq?

Thanks in advance,

Michael.
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post #2 of 21 Old 02-09-2019, 04:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Mick1234 View Post
Hi all,

I'm thinking about picking up the SVS sb 13 ultra for my home theater, but I'm not sure if it is the right choice. I want big bass I can feel for movies, and also if I'm listening to R&B or EDM, depending on my mood. It will be paired with some Keff R7s.

My living room is attached to my dining room, and the combined volume is about 5000 cubic feet. The shape of my room is shown in the attachment. Not sure if this is relevant, but the entire right and bottom walls are glass, which can be covered by a thick curtain. Floor is tiles.

Would the sb-4000 be a better fit, or perhaps something entirely different? The Kef sales guy suggested the Kube 12b to me but I think it might be underpowered, and I am not particularly interested in getting two subs. Are complex dsp room equalization features on the sub important or relevant if my avr has audyssey multeq?

Thanks in advance,

Michael.
Although the SB13 Ultra is a good sub (i had one) in that size room and you want to feel the bass a ported sub will give you much more SPL below 35Hz where it will matter most for movie watching. The SB-4000 imo will be more of a lateral move in that size room. If your open to ported subs, what are your size limits/budget/aesthetic requirements?
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post #3 of 21 Old 02-09-2019, 05:15 AM
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I want big bass I can feel for movies, and also if I'm listening to R&B or EDM

How about a Ported Box but one tier down? The PB3000 should still give you more of what you want for less.
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post #4 of 21 Old 02-09-2019, 05:18 AM - Thread Starter
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Although the SB13 Ultra is a good sub (i had one) in that size room and you want to feel the bass a ported sub will give you much more SPL below 35Hz where it will matter most for movie watching. The SB-4000 imo will be more of a lateral move in that size room. If your open to ported subs, what are your size limits/budget/aesthetic requirements?
Let's set the budget at 2.2k USD (the price of an sb13 here in Singapore). I'm open to a ported sub, as long as it works on the music side of things. I find the size of the sb13 attractive; there are a lot of places I could hide it. For a larger sub (22" cube) there are just one or two locations that might work. Preference is piano black.
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post #5 of 21 Old 02-09-2019, 05:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Mick1234 View Post
Let's set the budget at 2.2k USD (the price of an sb13 here in Singapore). I'm open to a ported sub, as long as it works on the music side of things. I find the size of the sb13 attractive; there are a lot of places I could hide it. For a larger sub (22" cube) there are just one or two locations that might work. Preference is piano black.
"Big bass you can feel" comes two ways, multiple smaller sealed subs, or one or two larger ported. Just physics. The Rythmik FV-15HP is just over your size limit (so not sure how firm you are on that) it comes in gloss black and will do movies and music very well.

If you can accommodate 33' in hight while staying within your depth and width,,, the paper cone version of the Rythmik FV18 will knock your sock off for both music and movies.

Also PSA's 1811 is as small a ported 18' gets but dont think piano black is an option.

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post #6 of 21 Old 02-09-2019, 06:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Mick1234 View Post
Hi all,

I'm thinking about picking up the SVS sb 13 ultra for my home theater, but I'm not sure if it is the right choice. I want big bass I can feel for movies, and also if I'm listening to R&B or EDM, depending on my mood. It will be paired with some Keff R7s.

My living room is attached to my dining room, and the combined volume is about 5000 cubic feet. The shape of my room is shown in the attachment. Not sure if this is relevant, but the entire right and bottom walls are glass, which can be covered by a thick curtain. Floor is tiles.

Would the sb-4000 be a better fit, or perhaps something entirely different? The Kef sales guy suggested the Kube 12b to me but I think it might be underpowered, and I am not particularly interested in getting two subs. Are complex dsp room equalization features on the sub important or relevant if my avr has audyssey multeq?

Thanks in advance,

Michael.
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Originally Posted by Mick1234 View Post
Let's set the budget at 2.2k USD (the price of an sb13 here in Singapore). I'm open to a ported sub, as long as it works on the music side of things. I find the size of the sb13 attractive; there are a lot of places I could hide it. For a larger sub (22" cube) there are just one or two locations that might work. Preference is piano black.
Hi Michael,

Sometimes our goals, and our understanding of what it may take to achieve those goals, just aren't in alignment. When that happens, we may have to compromise somewhere. The KEF representative wasn't even in the right time zone with respect to his suggestion. An SB13 will move you much closer to achieving your stated goal of big bass you can feel, but I agree with other posters that it may still leave you wanting more.

If you can expand your budget a bit, you may be able to obtain a PB13. I know that they used to be available in Singapore. Both the piano black SB13 and the PB13 are attractive subs, although of course the PB13 is much larger. But, that larger cabinet volume, and the ports it accommodates, are what allows it to produce much higher bass volumes than the SB13. The PB13 has a serious advantage over the SB13 below about 50Hz, and you will want that in your large space for both action movies and for some of the EDM music you mentioned. (To put the difference in context, at 20Hz a single PB13 would be able to produce as much SPL as four SB13's.)

Incidentally, your tiled floor will not convey low-bass tactile sensations very well, and a ported sub, tuned at 20Hz or lower, will help much more with that. The ports produce more particle velocity, which in turns creates the tactile sensations we feel. Those low-frequency tactile sensations are an important aspect of the overall bass experience. That is especially the case with the bass special effects in movies. We feel frequencies below about 30Hz as much as we hear them.

As mentioned in an earlier post, an alternative to the PB13 would be the new SVS PB3000. The cabinet size is just a little smaller, and that may help somewhat with the price as well, considering how the shipping costs work over there. It is also a serious performer, and would represent a substantial step-up in bass, compared to the SB13. It is, however, only available in a black oak finish.

This is where some compromise may be required, with respect to size, cost, or finish option. I believe that if you buy an SB13, you may not be satisfied, and if so, you will probably end-up spending more money than if you had simply started with a more powerful subwoofer. Of course, I could be mistaken, and your description of "big bass you can feel" may be different from what most people would mean by that. But, AVS represents a very large database of subwoofer buyers. Many other people have been in your shoes before.

If the local SVS dealer allows a free-trial period, the solution is easy. Just try whatever subwoofer you like. But, if not, I recommend buying either the PB13 or the PB3000. I believe that one of those ported models will be much more successful in satisfying your stated goals than the smaller, sealed SB13. I hope this helps!

Regards,
Mike


Edit: You also asked about the subwoofer's DSP. The DSP available with the better SVS models can sometimes be helpful to you, post-calibration, to help tailor the sound a little more to your personal preferences. Audyssey will EQ the bass to be a little flatter/smoother in your room. After that, you will want to increase the volume of the subwoofer, and you may want to make some other tweaks. Increasing the subwoofer volume will be the most important thing you do after Audyssey runs. You can check-out the Guide in my signature to understand that better. The Cliff Notes at the very beginning will help to get you started.
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* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
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Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.

Last edited by mthomas47; 02-09-2019 at 07:24 AM.
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post #7 of 21 Old 02-09-2019, 08:10 AM - Thread Starter
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Hi Michael,

Sometimes our goals, and our understanding of what it may take to achieve those goals, just aren't in alignment. When that happens, we may have to compromise somewhere. The KEF representative wasn't even in the right time zone with respect to his suggestion. An SB13 will move you much closer to achieving your stated goal of big bass you can feel, but I agree with other posters that it may still leave you wanting more.

If you can expand your budget a bit, you may be able to obtain a PB13. I know that they used to be available in Singapore. Both the piano black SB13 and the PB13 are attractive subs, although of course the PB13 is much larger. But, that larger cabinet volume, and the ports it accommodates, are what allows it to produce much higher bass volumes than the SB13. The PB13 has a serious advantage over the SB13 below about 50Hz, and you will want that in your large space for both action movies and for some of the EDM music you mentioned. (To put the difference in context, at 20Hz a single PB13 would be able to produce as much SPL as four SB13's.)

Incidentally, your tiled floor will not convey low-bass tactile sensations very well, and a ported sub, tuned at 20Hz or lower, will help much more with that. The ports produce more particle velocity, which in turns creates the tactile sensations we feel. Those low-frequency tactile sensations are an important aspect of the overall bass experience. That is especially the case with the bass special effects in movies. We feel frequencies below about 30Hz as much as we hear them.

As mentioned in an earlier post, an alternative to the PB13 would be the new SVS PB3000. The cabinet size is just a little smaller, and that may help somewhat with the price as well, considering how the shipping costs work over there. It is also a serious performer, and would represent a substantial step-up in bass, compared to the SB13. It is, however, only available in a black oak finish.

This is where some compromise may be required, with respect to size, cost, or finish option. I believe that if you buy an SB13, you may not be satisfied, and if so, you will probably end-up spending more money than if you had simply started with a more powerful subwoofer. Of course, I could be mistaken, and your description of "big bass you can feel" may be different from what most people would mean by that. But, AVS represents a very large database of subwoofer buyers. Many other people have been in your shoes before.

If the local SVS dealer allows a free-trial period, the solution is easy. Just try whatever subwoofer you like. But, if not, I recommend buying either the PB13 or the PB3000. I believe that one of those ported models will be much more successful in satisfying your stated goals than the smaller, sealed SB13. I hope this helps!

Regards,
Mike


Edit: You also asked about the subwoofer's DSP. The DSP available with the better SVS models can sometimes be helpful to you, post-calibration, to help tailor the sound a little more to your personal preferences. Audyssey will EQ the bass to be a little flatter/smoother in your room. After that, you will want to increase the volume of the subwoofer, and you may want to make some other tweaks. Increasing the subwoofer volume will be the most important thing you do after Audyssey runs. You can check-out the Guide in my signature to understand that better. The Cliff Notes at the very beginning will help to get you started.
Thanks for the considered reply. It helps very much. I'm fine with compromising, after all, any set of specifications starts with compromise. The black finish isn't fixed in stone, especially if the sub is not placed in front. I see my local dealer has the pb 12 and the pb 13, both within budget, but unfortunately they don't have the 45 day return deal, so it will be hard to see how they perform in my condo given the limited flexibility I will have on placement.

I've heard it said that sealed subs are better for music. Given today's tech does any of that hold at all?
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post #8 of 21 Old 02-09-2019, 08:12 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by indebtbassfreak View Post
"Big bass you can feel" comes two ways, multiple smaller sealed subs, or one or two larger ported. Just physics. The Rythmik FV-15HP is just over your size limit (so not sure how firm you are on that) it comes in gloss black and will do movies and music very well.

If you can accommodate 33' in hight while staying within your depth and width,,, the paper cone version of the Rythmik FV18 will knock your sock off for both music and movies.

Also PSA's 1811 is as small a ported 18' gets but dont think piano black is an option.
Do you know if they have a dealer in singapore? I can't seem to get any hits.
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post #9 of 21 Old 02-09-2019, 08:20 AM
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Do you know if they have a dealer in singapore? I can't seem to get any hits.
If your asking about a Rythmik dealer in Singapore, there aren't any. Frankly there aren't any Rythmik dealers anywhere, that I am aware of. They are an Internet Direct retailer, based near Austin Texas. Ascend Acoustic also sells Rythmik subs but they are also ID. Which is bad for you, because you can't go out and hear one. For HT and Music they are wonderful I have one of the smaller ones the LVX12.
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post #10 of 21 Old 02-09-2019, 08:20 AM
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Do you know if they have a dealer in singapore? I can't seem to get any hits.
No it would have to be ordered from Rythmik and i'm not 100% sure other than North America (Canada) where else Rythmik will ship. What i do know is both Rythmik/PSA have the best shipping rates to Canada, so (if) they will ship to you may not be as expensive as you think.

As for ported for music playback (Mike has way more experience than myself as i'm a sealed guy) Ported sub design has come a long way. Ported Rythmiks for example have been described as having sealed sound to them. I'm sure this is similar with other ID brands as well.

Out of convenience you may be more comfortable staying with your local SVS dealer. The PB13 will have close to three times the output as the SB13 Ultra below 35Hz, so a big jump in output for movies. It's 30" deep so keep that in mind.
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post #11 of 21 Old 02-09-2019, 08:29 AM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Hi Michael,

Sometimes our goals, and our understanding of what it may take to achieve those goals, just aren't in alignment. When that happens, we may have to compromise somewhere. The KEF representative wasn't even in the right time zone with respect to his suggestion. An SB13 will move you much closer to achieving your stated goal of big bass you can feel, but I agree with other posters that it may still leave you wanting more.

If you can expand your budget a bit, you may be able to obtain a PB13. I know that they used to be available in Singapore. Both the piano black SB13 and the PB13 are attractive subs, although of course the PB13 is much larger. But, that larger cabinet volume, and the ports it accommodates, are what allows it to produce much higher bass volumes than the SB13. The PB13 has a serious advantage over the SB13 below about 50Hz, and you will want that in your large space for both action movies and for some of the EDM music you mentioned. (To put the difference in context, at 20Hz a single PB13 would be able to produce as much SPL as four SB13's.)

Incidentally, your tiled floor will not convey low-bass tactile sensations very well, and a ported sub, tuned at 20Hz or lower, will help much more with that. The ports produce more particle velocity, which in turns creates the tactile sensations we feel. Those low-frequency tactile sensations are an important aspect of the overall bass experience. That is especially the case with the bass special effects in movies. We feel frequencies below about 30Hz as much as we hear them.

As mentioned in an earlier post, an alternative to the PB13 would be the new SVS PB3000. The cabinet size is just a little smaller, and that may help somewhat with the price as well, considering how the shipping costs work over there. It is also a serious performer, and would represent a substantial step-up in bass, compared to the SB13. It is, however, only available in a black oak finish.

This is where some compromise may be required, with respect to size, cost, or finish option. I believe that if you buy an SB13, you may not be satisfied, and if so, you will probably end-up spending more money than if you had simply started with a more powerful subwoofer. Of course, I could be mistaken, and your description of "big bass you can feel" may be different from what most people would mean by that. But, AVS represents a very large database of subwoofer buyers. Many other people have been in your shoes before.

If the local SVS dealer allows a free-trial period, the solution is easy. Just try whatever subwoofer you like. But, if not, I recommend buying either the PB13 or the PB3000. I believe that one of those ported models will be much more successful in satisfying your stated goals than the smaller, sealed SB13. I hope this helps!

Regards,
Mike


Edit: You also asked about the subwoofer's DSP. The DSP available with the better SVS models can sometimes be helpful to you, post-calibration, to help tailor the sound a little more to your personal preferences. Audyssey will EQ the bass to be a little flatter/smoother in your room. After that, you will want to increase the volume of the subwoofer, and you may want to make some other tweaks. Increasing the subwoofer volume will be the most important thing you do after Audyssey runs. You can check-out the Guide in my signature to understand that better. The Cliff Notes at the very beginning will help to get you started.

Excellent post Mike!


There's a great video by subwoofer101 that shows the size difference between some of the ported SVS subs (4000/3000/2000) and honestly the PB-3000 is considerably smaller than I thought, it looks much closer in size to the PB-2000 than the 4000,I think the shallower depth is especially handy, as the PB-4000/16U may just "stick out" a bit too far in many non dedicated rooms (especially with the grill on). That was the only thing that held me back from the 13U at my place
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Check out PSA....reach out to Tom....iirc....they have a distribution network in Asia and Australia....I'd go with the dual opposed S3xxi....had both sb13u and xs30se....in terms of output being slightly larger it had much more spl and dug deeper due to cabinet advantage...imo equal to the ultra....in terms of SQ and better pricing...thou I don't know how that translates in your part of the globe.

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post #13 of 21 Old 02-09-2019, 08:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Mick1234 View Post
Thanks for the considered reply. It helps very much. I'm fine with compromising, after all, any set of specifications starts with compromise. The black finish isn't fixed in stone, especially if the sub is not placed in front. I see my local dealer has the pb 12 and the pb 13, both within budget, but unfortunately they don't have the 45 day return deal, so it will be hard to see how they perform in my condo given the limited flexibility I will have on placement.

I've heard it said that sealed subs are better for music. Given today's tech does any of that hold at all?
You are very welcome! Opinions vary as to whether ported and sealed subs sound exactly the same. In blind listening tests, people have a lot of trouble distinguishing between them. My personal opinion is that, as Joe (indebtbassfreak) said, ported and sealed subs from the same designer will sound very similar. I believe that is especially the case where automated room EQ, such as Audyssey, is employed.

Both the PB13 and the PB3000 can also be run in sealed mode, so buying one of those models would allow you to listen in either the ported or the sealed mode. I believe, though, that for movies and for EDM, you will prefer the stronger ported sound and feel. I would not recommend going below the PB3000. The PB12-NSD, for instance, is a long way below the PB13 in capability. I agree with Jamie that the PB3000 could be a great choice if your dealer carries it.

As far as placement goes, if possible I would probably experiment first with the sub in the right front corner. If it sounds too boomy there, moving it just slightly out of the corner should help. You can also try more center wall in front, or a location very close to your listening position. All of those locations will have potential advantages, so you will just have to experiment to discover what you like best. Putting furniture sliders under the sub will facilitate that process.

Regards,
Mike
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GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #14 of 21 Old 02-09-2019, 01:43 PM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
You are very welcome! Opinions vary as to whether ported and sealed subs sound exactly the same. In blind listening tests, people have a lot of trouble distinguishing between them. My personal opinion is that, as Joe (indebtbassfreak) said, ported and sealed subs from the same designer will sound very similar. I believe that is especially the case where automated room EQ, such as Audyssey, is employed.

Both the PB13 and the PB3000 can also be run in sealed mode, so buying one of those models would allow you to listen in either the ported or the sealed mode. I believe, though, that for movies and for EDM, you will prefer the stronger ported sound and feel. I would not recommend going below the PB3000. The PB12-NSD, for instance, is a long way below the PB13 in capability. I agree with Jamie that the PB3000 could be a great choice if your dealer carries it.

As far as placement goes, if possible I would probably experiment first with the sub in the right front corner. If it sounds too boomy there, moving it just slightly out of the corner should help. You can also try more center wall in front, or a location very close to your listening position. All of those locations will have potential advantages, so you will just have to experiment to discover what you like best. Putting furniture sliders under the sub will facilitate that process.

Regards,
Mike
I was going to add, because of the servo control the ported subs more or less behave like a sealed sub. That's partially why many like Rythmik for music.
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
You are very welcome! Opinions vary as to whether ported and sealed subs sound exactly the same. In blind listening tests, people have a lot of trouble distinguishing between them. My personal opinion is that, as Joe (indebtbassfreak) said, ported and sealed subs from the same designer will sound very similar. I believe that is especially the case where automated room EQ, such as Audyssey, is employed.

Both the PB13 and the PB3000 can also be run in sealed mode, so buying one of those models would allow you to listen in either the ported or the sealed mode. I believe, though, that for movies and for EDM, you will prefer the stronger ported sound and feel. I would not recommend going below the PB3000. The PB12-NSD, for instance, is a long way below the PB13 in capability. I agree with Jamie that the PB3000 could be a great choice if your dealer carries it.

As far as placement goes, if possible I would probably experiment first with the sub in the right front corner. If it sounds too boomy there, moving it just slightly out of the corner should help. You can also try more center wall in front, or a location very close to your listening position. All of those locations will have potential advantages, so you will just have to experiment to discover what you like best. Putting furniture sliders under the sub will facilitate that process.

Regards,
Mike
I was going to add, because of the servo control the ported subs more or less behave like a sealed sub. That's partially why many like Rythmik for music.
I would think the opposite holds true...Rythmik are better for HT because the servo control reduces distrortion usually associated with LFE in movies. I'm not in one camp or another...to what's better...but Rythmik is one of only a few mfgs to incorporate servo technology. From what little I understand....I doubt any well designed sub driver built within its parameters and exhibits low destortion would benefit from a servo...thou I could be wrong.... especially with music.

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post #16 of 21 Old 02-10-2019, 03:20 AM - Thread Starter
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Sounds like the pb3000 is a winner, and I think I can get my hands it. For its size I'll need to place it 3 meters behind the sofa, in a corner under a desk. While I know that every room is different, does this placement sound like a terrible idea? Is there any downside to using a wireless module to connect the sub?
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post #17 of 21 Old 02-10-2019, 06:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick1234 View Post
Sounds like the pb3000 is a winner, and I think I can get my hands it. For its size I'll need to place it 3 meters behind the sofa, in a corner under a desk. While I know that every room is different, does this placement sound like a terrible idea? Is there any downside to using a wireless module to connect the sub?
Hi,

I think you will like the PB3000! You shouldn't have any trouble using a wireless module. The physical location you mentioned may work. It is hard to judge that in advance. We typically have to experiment with more than one location to find out where the sub sounds good as it interacts with the room. Sometimes, we get lucky, and the first (or only) location we try works well.

Other than frequency response, which as noted is unpredictable, the other problem you might have with that placement is localization. If the subwoofer is 3 meters behind your listening position, bass sounds may be identifiable as coming from behind you instead of where the action is occurring--typically more on the front soundstage. An 80Hz crossover may prevent that localization from happening.

Some people find that when they look at a room with fresh eyes, they see placement opportunities that they didn't know they had. Just shifting a piece of furniture over by a foot or two may open-up a space where a subwoofer will fit. We can sometimes become very ingenious if we are sufficiently motivated, and if good bass becomes a higher priority. You will just have to experiment to determine what works best in your room. This really isn't something that can be predicted in advance. Good luck!

Regards,
Mike
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I'm not sure how it would work price or size wise, but you may want to check out the Rythmik G25HP. I guess that would be assuming Rythmik ships to your location.
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post #19 of 21 Old 02-10-2019, 11:36 AM
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One thing about an SB13 or an PB13 is just getting one. Both have been out of production for awhile. I wanted one last year and had to find a lightly used one on eBay. In my case I wanted an SB13 since the 3000, 4000 and SB/PB16 class subs don't have high pass filters anymore....useful if you want a sub in an all analog 2 channel music setup like I have (the SB/PB2000 still has a high pass filter but fixed at 80 hz).

Otherwise, I think the 3000 series sub is a great choice, regardless if you go ported or sealed.
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post #20 of 21 Old 02-11-2019, 07:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Billy p View Post
I would think the opposite holds true...Rythmik are better for HT because the servo control reduces distrortion usually associated with LFE in movies. I'm not in one camp or another...to what's better...but Rythmik is one of only a few mfgs to incorporate servo technology. From what little I understand....I doubt any well designed sub driver built within its parameters and exhibits low destortion would benefit from a servo...thou I could be wrong.... especially with music.
You could be right, i don't know for sure. But i know that generally when people are asking about a musical sub, Rythmik is usually one of the top ones mentioned. To be honest, any sub that reaches low is good for HT. And your right Rythmik is one of the only servo sub mfg's. Ascend sells them as a authorized Rythmik reseller, and I think Velodyne does or used to sell servo subs.
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post #21 of 21 Old 02-11-2019, 07:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick1234 View Post
Sounds like the pb3000 is a winner, and I think I can get my hands it. For its size I'll need to place it 3 meters behind the sofa, in a corner under a desk. While I know that every room is different, does this placement sound like a terrible idea? Is there any downside to using a wireless module to connect the sub?
Placement depends on 3 factors: location of sub, type of room, and location of seating. All three play a factor. you'll just have to play around. The PB3000 looks to be a fantastic sub.

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