Might Change From SVS to PSA - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 83 Old 03-07-2019, 06:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Might Change From SVS to PSA

I ordered dual SVS PB-4000 a few weeks ago. There’s a better than even chance I will end up canceling the order. My question is how would a PSA V-1801 paired with a PSA V-3611 compare to dual SVS PB-4000s? My HT/music ratio is 85/15. Thanks for your input.
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post #2 of 83 Old 03-07-2019, 06:21 PM
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Both great sub options. Can i ask why the change of heart?

The 3X18" PSA will have more punch/output, to put it mildly. Depending on room, the svs may give you more down low. All depends on your goals and size of room.

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post #3 of 83 Old 03-07-2019, 07:51 PM - Thread Starter
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I ordered the two PB-4000w from a large retailer instead of directly from SVS because they offered to deliver them inside my home. This was important due to their weight. Somehow one of them arrived early on Tuesday and the guy who unboxed it showed me the corner had an indentation. This might have occurred during shipment or was just a manufacturing defect but I told him to leave it because I had waited so long already. The more annoying part was the power cord that came with it wasn’t for the USA. I had to call the salesman and he was able to locate a spare power cord. I also told him I wanted to exchange my subwoofer with one that didn’t have a damaged corner and he indicated that they would pick it up when the second one was delivered. The second one is supposed to be at their store by Sunday. I told him that if it wasn’t, I would cancel the order. I really appreciate the help Tom from PSA has given me. I purchased a V1510 from him but returned it because I wanted more oomph. I’m very happy with the single PB-4000 but I’m also tired of the drawn out process. I was charged when the order was placed weeks ago so that bugs me also.
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post #4 of 83 Old 03-07-2019, 08:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tswon View Post
I ordered dual SVS PB-4000 a few weeks ago. There’s a better than even chance I will end up canceling the order. My question is how would a PSA V-1801 paired with a PSA V-3611 compare to dual SVS PB-4000s? My HT/music ratio is 85/15. Thanks for your input.
Just like to point out, that two different subs (PSA, V1801 with a V-3611).

Will be more difficult to intergrade together within a room, than two subs that are the same.
While it is more difficult to achieve the end goal, it just require more work on your part
Therefore, I would stick to either;
-the two PB-4000
-or two PSA V1801
-or two PSA V-3611

I will stay out of what option is better, since they are all good subs.
One more thing you could do, is contact;
@Tom Vodhanel, for any PSA questions, even against SVS and
@Ed Mullen for the SVS questions.
And they are both very inform of there competition.

That said, I have dealt with both of them. And always got honest answer even if they loss a sale
I trust both of there opinion.


Ray
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post #5 of 83 Old 03-07-2019, 08:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Okay, what about a dual PB-4000 and dual V1801 comparison? The first floor of my home is an open plan.
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post #6 of 83 Old 03-07-2019, 08:53 PM - Thread Starter
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I meant dual V1811s versus PB-4000s.
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post #7 of 83 Old 03-07-2019, 09:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tswon View Post
I meant dual V1811s versus PB-4000s.
As my previous post, I will leave to Tom, Ed and some others to guide you. Since I have no experience with those two subs.

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Originally Posted by tswon View Post
Okay, what about a dual PB-4000 and dual V1801 comparison? The first floor of my home is an open plan.
About your floor plan, the way sound work is as following;
-Speakers only care to reach your Main Listening Position (MLP) within a room, and that a plus for all of us
-Sub/s on the other hand, try to fill all open area

So the bigger the room or with other open spaces, the more subs you need or bigger drivers.
That said, sometime due to the design of a sub purpose, is not the indication of the results for your need.
I know my last sentence sound like a Politician , just had no other way to say-it


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post #8 of 83 Old 03-08-2019, 06:52 AM
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I think i remember Tom from PSA (i could be mistaken) saying that subs also,,, down to a certain frequency will have similar results "as speakers" to the MLP regardless of the room depending on placement. It's the lowest octave's that can be lost at the MLP, as the ULF does see the whole space and if large will kill ULF at the MLP.

So if we were talking about a 6000^3 open room for example, and sub placement was quite far from the MLP,, then likely there wouldn't be much advantage to the 4000's extension advantage over the V-1811 imo.
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post #9 of 83 Old 03-08-2019, 08:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by indebtbassfreak View Post
I think i remember Tom from PSA (i could be mistaken) saying that subs also,,, down to a certain frequency will have similar results "as speakers" to the MLP regardless of the room depending on placement. It's the lowest octave's that can be lost at the MLP, as the ULF does see the whole space and if large will kill ULF at the MLP.

So if we were talking about a 6000^3 open room for example, and sub placement was quite far from the MLP,, then likely there wouldn't be much advantage to the 4000's extension advantage over the V-1811 imo.
I am not sure about this myself, based on the hearing a 2400 ULF in a 7000^3 open room, we definitely heard the sub with lower tuning clearly having a clear advantage down low. With room gain that would have been amplified so I think that a sub tuned lower will still produce the ULF and have an advantage. I am no expert at this but I know some one like @mthomas47 is running low tuned in multiples in a big open room and getting all the ULF he could want
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post #10 of 83 Old 03-08-2019, 08:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imureh View Post
I am not sure about this myself, based on the hearing a 2400 ULF in a 7000^3 open room, we definitely heard the sub with lower tuning clearly having a clear advantage down low. With room gain that would have been amplified so I think that a sub tuned lower will still produce the ULF and have an advantage. I am no expert at this but I know some one like @mthomas47 is running low tuned in multiples in a big open room and getting all the ULF he could want
Lol, certainly no expert here either. You have been exposed to more subs than i likely ever will so your personal experience holds weight. It goes to show Mike knows what he's doing,, been able to get run out of the room at times if he didn't reduce his volume. 6000^3 on concrete But if you have seen his equipment (speakers) Wow!! then adding four ULF monsters that we know are properly set up you can see why.

I don't know Mike's settings, but his speakers will pound down below 40Hz so i'm guessing his subs arent tuned to do much above 60Hz leaving even more output for ULF. Man i would love to hear it.

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post #11 of 83 Old 03-08-2019, 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by indebtbassfreak View Post
I think i remember Tom from PSA (i could be mistaken) saying that subs also,,, down to a certain frequency will have similar results "as speakers" to the MLP regardless of the room depending on placement. It's the lowest octave's that can be lost at the MLP, as the ULF does see the whole space and if large will kill ULF at the MLP.

So if we were talking about a 6000^3 open room for example, and sub placement was quite far from the MLP,, then likely there wouldn't be much advantage to the 4000's extension advantage over the V-1811 imo.
Quote:
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I am not sure about this myself, based on the hearing a 2400 ULF in a 7000^3 open room, we definitely heard the sub with lower tuning clearly having a clear advantage down low. With room gain that would have been amplified so I think that a sub tuned lower will still produce the ULF and have an advantage. I am no expert at this but I know some one like @mthomas47 is running low tuned in multiples in a big open room and getting all the ULF he could want
Quote:
Originally Posted by indebtbassfreak View Post
Lol, certainly no expert here either. You have been exposed to more subs than i likely ever will so your personal experience holds weight. It goes to show Mike knows what he's doing,, been able to get run out of the room at times if he didn't reduce his volume. 6000^3 on concrete But if you have seen his equipment (speakers) Wow!! then adding four ULF monsters that we know are properly set up you can see why.

I don't know Mike's settings, but his speakers will pound down below 40Hz so i'm guessing his subs arent tuned to do much above 60Hz leaving even more output for ULF. Man i would love to hear it.

Hi Guys,

I appreciate the compliment, Joe! I would love to be able to share my audio system with you fellows, and to hear yours in return. Unfortunately, some of the people with whom we might wish to share our audio systems may be located too far away to ever make that possible.

I have fourteen 12" woofers, in large sealed cabinets, for six of the speakers in my audio system. But, four of those speakers still use an 80Hz crossover, and only the ones with four 12" woofers apiece, in 18^3 cabinets, use a 60Hz crossover. Low-tuned ported subwoofers can still wipe the floor with my other speakers, for movies, below about 80Hz.

I definitely think that larger rooms make it more difficult to obtain the same low-frequency SPL and TR that we can get in smaller rooms. But, to me, that simply puts a higher premium on those low-frequencies, and makes our selection of lower-tuned subwoofers all the more important. As you noted, my ULF SPL and TR can literally run me out of the room if I really crank things up with the right movie.

Think of the low-bass this way. If Ray had trouble getting as much low-bass SPL and TR as he wanted with a pair of V1801's in a roughly 2500^3 room (it may have been 2700) then how much harder would it be for those same subwoofers to provide the low-bass he wanted in an even larger space?

I think that the OP has the same dilemma. The V1811's are excellent subs, and they will provide more total mid-bass SPL than the PB4000's will. But, how much total mid-bass SPL is the OP likely to need? For most people, once they can get really good dual subs, they will usually have enough undistorted, uncompressed mid-bass SPL, and mid-bass TR. And now, they can afford to turn their attention to the lower frequencies. As rooms get larger, our listening distances from our subwoofers typically increase, and our room gain starts at lower frequencies. My serious room gain starts at 20Hz, and two of my four subs are 18' from my MLP in my 6000^3 room.

But, as noted above, I think that simply means that I need to put a higher premium on subwoofers with lower tuning points, rather than subwoofers with higher tuning points, if I want to hear and feel movie special effects the way I want to. For a larger room, I think that someone who is primarily watching movies will have sufficient mid-bass from a pair of PB4000's, and a lot more low-bass SPL and TR than he would from a pair of V1811's.

As Ray discovered, the difference isn't in the number of drivers, or even in the size of the drivers. His two V1801's were terrific subs, with terrific mid-bass abilities. But, they drop-off pretty fast below 25Hz. The V3611's are even more powerful, but they have the same tuning point as the V1811's. The real difference for low-bass SPL and TR in movies is in the tuning point. For people who want to maximize the low-bass movie experience, I would recommend a pair of PB4000's rather a pair of V1811's.

So, to answer tswon's original question, I would stay with the PB4000's for a primarily movie experience, in preference to ported PSA subwoofers. Personally, I can't wait until PSA starts to offer some lower-tuned subwoofers. I think it will not only make many loyal PSA owners very happy, it will be good for the audio/HT community as a whole.

Regards,
Mike

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post #12 of 83 Old 03-08-2019, 10:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Hi Guys,

I appreciate the compliment, Joe! I would love to be able to share my audio system with you fellows, and to hear yours in return. Unfortunately, some of the people with whom we might wish to share our audio systems may be located too far away to ever make that possible.

I have fourteen 12" woofers, in large sealed cabinets, for six of the speakers in my audio system. But, four of those speakers still use an 80Hz crossover, and only the ones with four 12" woofers apiece, in 18^3 cabinets, use a 60Hz crossover. Low-tuned ported subwoofers can still wipe the floor with my other speakers, for movies, below about 80Hz.

I definitely think that larger rooms make it more difficult to obtain the same low-frequency SPL and TR that we can get in smaller rooms. But, to me, that simply puts a higher premium on those low-frequencies, and makes our selection of lower-tuned subwoofers all the more important.

Think of it this way. If Ray had trouble getting as much low-bass SPL and TR as he wanted with a pair of V1801's in a roughly 2500^3 room (it may have been 2700) then how much harder would it be for those same subwoofers to provide the low-bass he wanted in an even larger space?

I think that the OP has the same dilemma. The V1811's are excellent subs, and they will provide more total mid-bass SPL than the PB4000's will. But, how much total mid-bass SPL is the OP likely to need? For most people, once they can get really good dual subs, they will usually have enough undistorted, uncompressed mid-bass SPL, and mid-bass TR. And now, they can afford to turn their attention to the lower frequencies. As rooms get larger, our listening distances from our subwoofers typically increase, and our room gain starts at lower frequencies. My serious room gain starts at 20Hz, and two of my four subs are 18' from my MLP in my 6000^3 room.

But, as noted above, I think that simply means that I need to put a higher premium on subwoofers with lower tuning points, rather than subwoofers with higher tuning points, if I want to hear and feel movie special effects the way I want to. For a larger room, I think that someone who is primarily watching movies will have sufficient mid-bass from a pair of PB4000's, and a lot more low-bass SPL and TR than he would from a pair of 1811's.

As Ray discovered, the difference isn't in the number of drivers, or even in the size of the drivers. His two V1801's are terrific subs, with terrific mid-bass abilities. But, they drop-off pretty fast below 25Hz. the V3611's are even more powerful, but they have the same tuning point as the V1811's. The real difference for low-bass SPL and TR in movies is in the tuning point. For people who want to maximize the low-bass movie experience, I would recommend a pair of PB4000's rather a pair of V1811's.

So, to answer tswon's original question, I would stay with the PB4000's for a primarily movie experience, in preference to ported PSA subwoofers. Personally, I can't wait until PSA starts to offer some lower-tuned subwoofers. I think it will not only make many loyal PSA owners very happy, it will be good for the audio/HT community as a whole.

Regards,
Mike


Thanks for chiming in Mike. You of course said it a lot better than I am ever could. It does confirm what I was saying about my experience about listening to low tuned subs in a large open room. Since there was no assistance from the room for the low end, the subs ability to play low frequencies became even more important. You are correct about my own experience in a 2100 cuft room but did not know what I was missing till I heard a low tuned sub and noticed some new weight to the sound which I liked. So my current subs provide me enough mid bass and a lot more ULF which for me is a good balance and with tools like the minidsp I was able to really squeeze out more performance since I have more than enough headroom.


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Hi Guys,

I have fourteen 12" woofers, in large sealed cabinets, for six of the speakers in my audio system. But, four of those speakers still use an 80Hz crossover, and only the ones with four 12" woofers apiece, in 18^3 cabinets, use a 60Hz crossover.
Good lord Mike. Do you have any hearing left? What kind of ginormous speakers are those?

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Originally Posted by tswon View Post
I meant dual V1811s versus PB-4000s.

I have PSA older brother subs V1801 and I had tried the PB-4000 at the same time.
And to me I would go with the V1811 instead.
Mainly because most movies that I have watched so far does not give me the extra power down low that SVS offers.
PSA makes there subs for more mid bass punch. That TR feeling is what I was looking for and PSA delivers that and then some

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what are the PB4k's tuning frequency?
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Despite who posted what i was trying to pass along,,,, Mike and imureh your experiences seem to be different, mind you,, both of you have loads of sub woofer for your space and maybe a single smaller sub with a low port tune vs a higher port tune may be relevant to the contradiction, i dunno?,,,, always different perspectives on AVS. I am a complete novice when it comes to the capabilities of todays ported monsters, so i have no real world experience in a low port tuned sub in a large room.

As mentioned,,, some prefer chest slam SPL, others ULF SPL, at least there are products that cater to both.
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post #17 of 83 Old 03-08-2019, 11:57 AM
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Quote:
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Good lord Mike. Do you have any hearing left? What kind of ginormous speakers are those?
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what are the PB4k's tuning frequency?
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Originally Posted by indebtbassfreak View Post
Despite who posted what i was trying to pass along,,,, Mike and imureh your experiences seem to be different, mind you,, both of you have loads of sub woofer for your space and maybe a single smaller sub with a low port tune vs a higher port tune may be relevant to the contradiction, i dunno?,,,, always different perspectives on AVS. I am a complete novice when it comes to the capabilities of todays ported monsters, so i have no real world experience in a low port tuned sub in a large room.

As mentioned,,, some prefer chest slam SPL, others ULF SPL, at least there are products that cater to both.

I actually don't listen at extremely loud volumes. And, I don't use subwoofers at all for music listening. But, in a big room on concrete, I like to add a lot of subwoofer boost for movies. My six large speakers (plus another pair I'm not currently using) are Bozak speakers with some modern updates. The biggest ones are slightly customized Bozak Concert Grands if you want to look them up.

The Extended mode on the PB4000 has a 16Hz port tune.

Ray and I were actually saying exactly the same thing, Joe. Even in his smaller room, he moved from the dual V1801's to the dual FV18's in order to get more low-frequency extension. And, the Rythmik ported subs, with a lower port tune, seemed to strike just the right low-frequency balance for him, in his smaller room on a suspended wood floor. I was simply saying that in a larger room, it takes more firepower to achieve good low-frequency SPL and TR than it does in a smaller room. But, you can definitely do it.

I also want to continue to make a distinction between trying to get all the mid-bass SPL that someone may want with a single sub, and being able to do the same thing with dual subs. In my personal opinion, unless someone wants to listen at extremely loud volumes, sufficient mid-bass SPL is fairly easy to achieve with several different high-quality subwoofers.

But, having sufficient low-bass SPL and TR is not primarily a function of the number or size of ported subwoofers in a system. It is primarily a function of their tuning point. Multiples will give you more SPL at the frequencies the subwoofers can play, but they won't make the port tunes any lower. And, a tuning point in the mid-teens can be very different, for instance, than a tuning point of around 20Hz or higher.

Regards,
Mike

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Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
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post #18 of 83 Old 03-08-2019, 12:44 PM
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I actually don't listen at extremely loud volumes. And, I don't use subwoofers at all for music listening. But, in a big room on concrete, I like to add a lot of subwoofer boost for movies. My six large speakers (plus another pair I'm not currently using) are Bozak speakers with some modern updates. The biggest ones are slightly customized Bozak Concert Grands if you want to look them up.

The Extended mode on the PB4000 has a 16Hz port tune.

Ray and I were actually saying exactly the same thing, Joe. Even in his smaller room, he moved from the dual V1801's to the dual FV18's in order to get more low-frequency extension. And, the Rythmik ported subs, with a lower port tune, seemed to strike just the right low-frequency balance for him, in his smaller room on a suspended wood floor. I was simply saying that in a larger room, it takes more firepower to achieve good low-frequency SPL and TR than it does in a smaller room. But, you can definitely do it.

I also want to continue to make a distinction between trying to get all the mid-bass SPL that someone may want with a single sub, and being able to do the same thing with dual subs. In my personal opinion, unless someone wants to listen at extremely loud volumes, sufficient mid-bass SPL is fairly easy to achieve with several different high-quality subwoofers.

But, having sufficient low-bass SPL and TR is not primarily a function of the number or size of ported subwoofers in a system. It is primarily a function of their tuning point. Multiples will give you more SPL at the frequencies the subwoofers can play, but they won't make the port tunes any lower. And, a tuning point in the mid-teens can be very different, for instance, than a tuning point of around 20Hz or higher.

Regards,
Mike
I myself having sealed subs that provide loads of extension am bias to the weight that kind of bass provides (with the right source material) vs a sub that would roll off aggressively below 20Hz, so i personally am on the same page as you and imureh for liking ULF SPL. The difference is low tuned ported will provide more of it than the equivalent sealed by up to triple,,,, that i have not experienced, but hope to one day.
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unless someone wants to listen at extremely loud volumes, sufficient mid-bass SPL is fairly easy to achieve with several different high-quality subwoofers.


Mike

This ^^


Quote:
Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Multiples will give you more SPL at the frequencies the subwoofers can play, but they won't make the port tunes any lower. And, a tuning point in the mid-teens can be very different, for instance, than a tuning point of around 20Hz or higher.

Regards,
Mike

and this ^^
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post #20 of 83 Old 03-08-2019, 04:32 PM
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what are the PB4k's tuning frequency?


The interesting thing about all this is that the tuning frequency for the SVS and PSA are identical, and they measure that way at 90 DB. The thing everyone seems to care about though is max 20hz (or whatever) volume and apparently there's a gap. I've always found 20hz max volume to be a simple and valuable metric for comparative analysis. Its easy to get lost in all the numbers.


I've also always thought it was remarkable what SVS got out of those 13.5" drivers.
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post #21 of 83 Old 03-08-2019, 06:54 PM - Thread Starter
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That’s it. I cancelled my order for dual PB-4000s. A couple of Senior Members have been exceedingly helpful in saying dual Rhythmik FV18s would be a great way to go. My significant other indicated I better make the right decision with no regrets because I’m driving her crazy. She has even green-lit dual PSA V3611s. This might be my best option. Thoughts?
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post #22 of 83 Old 03-08-2019, 07:09 PM
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I’d vote PSA due to the great warranty, trade in program and Tom and co provide the best customer service out there. Also made in the USA

Rythmik also makes a great subwoofer too. You really can’t go wrong.


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post #23 of 83 Old 03-08-2019, 07:12 PM
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She has even green-lit dual PSA V3611s.


I'm not going to tell you what sub to buy but she's a keeper.
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post #24 of 83 Old 03-08-2019, 07:24 PM
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That’s it. I cancelled my order for dual PB-4000s. A couple of Senior Members have been exceedingly helpful in saying dual Rhythmik FV18s would be a great way to go. My significant other indicated I better make the right decision with no regrets because I’m driving her crazy. She has even green-lit dual PSA V3611s. This might be my best option. Thoughts?
Perhaps I missed it. What are the room dimensions? Closed or open concept? Hard slab or floating floor?
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post #25 of 83 Old 03-08-2019, 07:34 PM - Thread Starter
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My entire first floor with the exception of a spare bedroom is one giant room because I have an open floor plan. My living room, family room, dining room and kitchen have no walls dividing them. My house is on a concrete slab.
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post #26 of 83 Old 03-08-2019, 07:51 PM
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svs pb-4000 modes


  • 16-200 Hz +/- 3 dB (standard mode)
  • 13-200 Hz +/- 3 dB (extended mode)
  • 18-200 Hz +/- 3 dB (sealed mode)
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post #27 of 83 Old 03-08-2019, 08:12 PM
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My entire first floor with the exception of a spare bedroom is one giant room because I have an open floor plan. My living room, family room, dining room and kitchen have no walls dividing them. My house is on a concrete slab.
I found your previous thread which had more background info.

Since you cannot accommodate dual V3611s I believe that the Rythmik FV18s are the best option. Definitely get the paper drivers (85% movies). You can opt for Rev. 1 to save $ but Rev. 2 does feature improved port flow (I own Rev. 1).

Something not mentioned is that the Rythmik is variable tune. 16Hz with 3 ports open. 12Hz with 2 open (1 plugged). Flexibility never hurts.

Last edited by Marc Alexander; 03-08-2019 at 08:16 PM.
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post #28 of 83 Old 03-08-2019, 08:15 PM - Thread Starter
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I was wrong. I found an obvious solution to accommodating dual V3611s.
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post #29 of 83 Old 03-08-2019, 08:19 PM
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I was wrong. I found an obvious solution to accommodating dual V3611s.
The V3611s will have more output capability, money no object. I would go for duals for ease of integration. I wouldn't try to mix in the V1811 (unless it was nearfield directly behind your seat).
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post #30 of 83 Old 03-08-2019, 08:22 PM
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The V3611s will have more output capability, money no object. I would go for duals for ease of integration. I wouldn't try to mix in the V1811 (unless it was nearfield directly behind your seat).


Marc, one thing the OP mentioned is that he does not listen very loud and likes the deep rumble of the SVS and would like that in the replacement sub.


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