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post #1 of 31 Old 04-17-2019, 06:21 AM - Thread Starter
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Question Dual subs for music ?

I recently replaced my subwoofer with a pb-1000. I am very happy with the improvement over my previous sub. I am looking for opinions on whether adding a 2nd pb-1000 will provide much of an improvement for music? I am not really all that concerned with movies. It is music which I really listen to at louder volume.
Thanks
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post #2 of 31 Old 04-17-2019, 06:39 AM
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post #3 of 31 Old 04-17-2019, 08:30 AM
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Adding a second sub will generally get you greater dynamic range (due to having more headroom) and lower distortion (less work for each subwoofer amp and less excursion for each subwoofer driver). Depending on placement, you can also end up with smoother bass (fewer/smaller peaks & dips in the frequency response) and greater seat to seat consistency (IF more than one seat is important to you). ONLY downside is cost.

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post #4 of 31 Old 04-17-2019, 09:49 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by kwkshift View Post
Thanks for the link. I have read this thread but my questions are more related to music quality. I am not as concerned about movies.
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post #5 of 31 Old 04-17-2019, 09:54 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Adding a second sub will generally get you greater dynamic range (due to having more headroom) and lower distortion (less work for each subwoofer amp and less excursion for each subwoofer driver). Depending on placement, you can also end up with smoother bass (fewer/smaller peaks & dips in the frequency response) and greater seat to seat consistency (IF more than one seat is important to you). ONLY downside is cost.
Thanks for the reply. I am ok with the costs if there is significant improvement in music listening. I am more concerned with the space requirements for the 2nd sub. If there is much improvement I can make the space requirements work. I have only a few seating requirements in the room on the couch.
Thanks again
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post #6 of 31 Old 04-17-2019, 09:57 AM
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You already know what one PB-1000 sounds like for music listening. Two PB-1000s will sound essentially the same, only with more SPL. Whether that constitutes a "significant improvement in music listening" is up to you, IMO.
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post #7 of 31 Old 04-17-2019, 10:33 AM
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The point of that other thread really is improving the quality of the lower registers across the entire room, smoothing the bass out over a larger area. This hold true with any application regarding multiple subs.
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post #8 of 31 Old 04-17-2019, 11:11 AM
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Originally Posted by wadennis View Post
I am more concerned with the space requirements for the 2nd sub. If there is much improvement I can make the space requirements work.
How much improvement depends on placement (subs and seating). What are your room dimensions? How far are your ears (not the seating) from the front wall? Is the room sealed (doors) or does it have openings (archways)?
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post #9 of 31 Old 04-17-2019, 12:29 PM
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I've gone down this path years ago (been a while since I've even posted here) and am happy with my dual setup. When one sub is off (or an amp died) I notice it very subtly. It's a very minor pressure directional indication to me. Typically dual subs are best for smoothing the bass across multiple seating locations, not just the primary seating spot. Usually one sub can get a single spot very smooth with proper placement, Room EQ, etc.. For music listening my seating position is very specific and with one sub the response is very smooth, but it's the directionality of bass I still notice - very subtle, but it's still there to me.


Both of my subs are almost symmetrically placed along the side walls about 1/3 from the front of the room, outboard of my mains. Per REW I've got a very smooth arrangement and all is play nice together from ~14Hz up to 200Hz. I've got dual SVS PB13 Ultras (old units with upgraded amps) and a pair of B&W 802D mains with MC501 monoblocs pushing each (shameless listing of my system makeup - but I like it). I took a long time obtaining what I consider to be my childhood dream system, and have spent countless hours analyzing optimal arrangements (within my room limits) with all the gear. Duals do it for me. I'd have a hard time ever going single sub again even if/when I change subs. But it is certainly more hassle getting it all dialed in with the additional interactions and moving parts with dual subs. The cost and effort in the end to me is worth it though.

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post #10 of 31 Old 04-17-2019, 07:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
How much improvement depends on placement (subs and seating). What are your room dimensions? How far are your ears (not the seating) from the front wall? Is the room sealed (doors) or does it have openings (archways)?
My room is 12 x 19. The tv, front towers, centre channel & 1 sub are currently on the 12' wall. My main seating area is on a loveseat which is about 10' away directly in front of tv. There is also a sofa on the side 19' wall. There is one entrance near the back of the 19' wall
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post #11 of 31 Old 04-17-2019, 07:24 PM
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The best thing about SVS is that you can do free home trials. So just buy one (or more) and try to see if you can make it work in your room. Two subs are always better than one. And if you can’t get it to work you could always just stack it on top of the other sub and get more output. If you aren’t happy then send it back. You have nothing to lose.
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post #12 of 31 Old 04-17-2019, 07:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ianrozzano View Post
The best thing about SVS is that you can do free home trials. So just buy one (or more) and try to see if you can make it work in your room. Two subs are always better than one. And if you can’t get it to work you could always just stack it on top of the other sub and get more output. If you aren’t happy then send it back. You have nothing to lose.
Unfortunately I am in Canada so the SVS return policy isn't available here.
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post #13 of 31 Old 04-17-2019, 08:02 PM
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75% music is my usage in a large, 32'x22'x8' room, after a remodel. Started out with a used Denon 4311CI running a 7.1 setup. Really for a big game room (pool table, darts, bar) with occasional movie up in the front 1/3 of room. Adding the second sub was a MAJOR improvement in my situation. That brought me to add an amp and start running 9.2. Waited a couple months until the subs were on sale again and got two more. Now with another added amp running at 11.4 sounds amazing. Like sdurani said, the only downside is $$$. If you can swing it money wise, DO IT.
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post #14 of 31 Old 04-17-2019, 08:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wadennis View Post
I recently replaced my subwoofer with a pb-1000. I am very happy with the improvement over my previous sub. I am looking for opinions on whether adding a 2nd pb-1000 will provide much of an improvement for music? I am not really all that concerned with movies. It is music which I really listen to at louder volume.
Thanks
A second sub would be a great idea. If you are more concerned about music quality over movies, sealed subs would at least be worth a try. What type of music do you listen to?
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post #15 of 31 Old 04-17-2019, 08:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wadennis View Post
I recently replaced my subwoofer with a pb-1000. I am very happy with the improvement over my previous sub. I am looking for opinions on whether adding a 2nd pb-1000 will provide much of an improvement for music? I am not really all that concerned with movies. It is music which I really listen to at louder volume.
Thanks
The main benefit of dual subs for music is improved sound quality. Although some may get a nice accurate frequency response with one subwoofer, I would say most do NOT get an accurate response with a single sub. Dual subs, placed and setup properly, will almost always yield a substantial improvement in sound quality. In order for this to happen, you need to be able to measure or you are just taking a shot in the dark.

Download REW, order a UMIK-1 microphone, and learn how to take measurements. If you don't have an AVR with excellent subwoofer eq capability such as the mid-high level Denon's with sub eq HT, get a miniDSP 2x4 HD. Total investment here is about $300 but can be used indefinitely even as you upgrade or change gear.

As an added benefit to the sound quality improvement, you will gain 6 dB of output capability and have lower distortion.
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post #16 of 31 Old 04-17-2019, 08:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
The main benefit of dual subs for music is improved sound quality. Although some may get a nice accurate frequency response with one subwoofer, I would say most do NOT get an accurate response with a single sub. Dual subs, placed and setup properly, will almost always yield a substantial improvement in sound quality. In order for this to happen, you need to be able to measure or you are just taking a shot in the dark.

Download REW, order a UMIK-1 microphone, and learn how to take measurements. If you don't have an AVR with excellent subwoofer eq capability such as the mid-high level Denon's with sub eq HT, get a miniDSP 2x4 HD. Total investment here is about $300 but can be used indefinitely even as you upgrade or change gear.

As an added benefit to the sound quality improvement, you will gain 6 dB of output capability and have lower distortion.
Thanks for the suggestions. I do have a denon 4300 so would I just need the umik-1 microphone? Then figure out how to use it. Before any of this though I would need to pull the trigger on the 2nd sub.
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post #17 of 31 Old 04-18-2019, 02:14 AM
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Originally Posted by wadennis View Post
Thanks for the suggestions. I do have a denon 4300 so would I just need the umik-1 microphone? Then figure out how to use it. Before any of this though I would need to pull the trigger on the 2nd sub.
Not really, don't be afraid to go ahead and download REW and get the Umik-1 ordered up. There's a learning curve with REW so it wouldn't hurt to get some time in learning how to use it....will also show you what kind of FR you have with the single sub.
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post #18 of 31 Old 04-18-2019, 04:33 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
Not really, don't be afraid to go ahead and download REW and get the Umik-1 ordered up. There's a learning curve with REW so it wouldn't hurt to get some time in learning how to use it....will also show you what kind of FR you have with the single sub.
That is a great idea. I will order it up on Amazon & do some testing with my single sub placement.
Thanks
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post #19 of 31 Old 04-18-2019, 04:50 AM
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In a smaller space, the main benefit would be to be able to get smoother audio response, and let you deal with potential room node issues, and
potentially allow you to alleviate nulls at the seating.
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post #20 of 31 Old 04-18-2019, 10:32 AM
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Originally Posted by wadennis View Post
My room is 12 x 19. The tv, front towers, centre channel & 1 sub are currently on the 12' wall. My main seating area is on a loveseat which is about 10' away directly in front of tv.
If you blow across the opening of an empty Coke bottle, you can make the air in that small chamber resonate (make the booooooh sound). If you enlarge that small chamber to the size of your room, the air in there will still resonate (obviously at different frequencies than the empty Coke bottle). Looking at the graph below, you'll see that the 19' length of your room will resonate at 30Hz, 59Hz, 89Hz, etc. These problem frequencies will cause peaks & nulls along the length of your room.



Notice that the worst location is the midpoint of room length, where the problem frequencies are either peaking or nulling (all extremes, no moderation). Your main seating is only 6" from this location. Since all the nulls in the graph are at even divisions (half, quarters, sixths) of room length, you can move your love seat so that the listeners' ears are at one of the odd divisions (thirds, fifths) of room length, resulting in smoother frequency response for the listeners.

If you cannot move your love seat, then adding a second subwoofer at the opposite end of the room (back wall) will cancel the 30Hz and 89Hz resonances, eliminating (or at least minimizing) the giant nulls at/near your seating location. That location will still have a peak at 59Hz (see black trace on graph), but that peak can be pulled down by the room correction system in your receiver. Since all listeners on the love seat are the same distance from the front wall, they will all experience the same 59Hz peak. So when the room correction fixes it, it will be fixed for everyone on the love seat.
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post #21 of 31 Old 04-18-2019, 01:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
If you blow across the opening of an empty Coke bottle, you can make the air in that small chamber resonate (make the booooooh sound). If you enlarge that small chamber to the size of your room, the air in there will still resonate (obviously at different frequencies than the empty Coke bottle). Looking at the graph below, you'll see that the 19' length of your room will resonate at 30Hz, 59Hz, 89Hz, etc. These problem frequencies will cause peaks & nulls along the length of your room.



Notice that the worst location is the midpoint of room length, where the problem frequencies are either peaking or nulling (all extremes, no moderation). Your main seating is only 6" from this location. Since all the nulls in the graph are at even divisions (half, quarters, sixths) of room length, you can move your love seat so that the listeners' ears are at one of the odd divisions (thirds, fifths) of room length, resulting in smoother frequency response for the listeners.

If you cannot move your love seat, then adding a second subwoofer at the opposite end of the room (back wall) will cancel the 30Hz and 89Hz resonances, eliminating (or at least minimizing) the giant nulls at/near your seating location. That location will still have a peak at 59Hz (see black trace on graph), but that peak can be pulled down by the room correction system in your receiver. Since all listeners on the love seat are the same distance from the front wall, they will all experience the same 59Hz peak. So when the room correction fixes it, it will be fixed for everyone on the love seat.
Thanks for the info. I will try moving the loveseat slightly forward or slightly back to see if I hear any differences. I wish I had a 2nd sub to test dual. Being in Canada if I order it & find minimal improvement then it will be $100 shipping to return.
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post #22 of 31 Old 04-19-2019, 05:58 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
If you blow across the opening of an empty Coke bottle, you can make the air in that small chamber resonate (make the booooooh sound). If you enlarge that small chamber to the size of your room, the air in there will still resonate (obviously at different frequencies than the empty Coke bottle). Looking at the graph below, you'll see that the 19' length of your room will resonate at 30Hz, 59Hz, 89Hz, etc. These problem frequencies will cause peaks & nulls along the length of your room.



Notice that the worst location is the midpoint of room length, where the problem frequencies are either peaking or nulling (all extremes, no moderation). Your main seating is only 6" from this location. Since all the nulls in the graph are at even divisions (half, quarters, sixths) of room length, you can move your love seat so that the listeners' ears are at one of the odd divisions (thirds, fifths) of room length, resulting in smoother frequency response for the listeners.

If you cannot move your love seat, then adding a second subwoofer at the opposite end of the room (back wall) will cancel the 30Hz and 89Hz resonances, eliminating (or at least minimizing) the giant nulls at/near your seating location. That location will still have a peak at 59Hz (see black trace on graph), but that peak can be pulled down by the room correction system in your receiver. Since all listeners on the love seat are the same distance from the front wall, they will all experience the same 59Hz peak. So when the room correction fixes it, it will be fixed for everyone on the love seat.
Can I ask you a question regarding this graph? If I added a 2nd sub in position at the front of the room would I have the same situation? ie FL, sub, centre, sub, FR. I ask this because I hear of many people positioning the subs both up front.
Thanks
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post #23 of 31 Old 04-19-2019, 06:31 AM
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So, I just did this. I had a 100% music 2.1 system and just recently added a 2nd sub, so now I'm 2.2.

The previous comments are right on, it really depends on how it's implemented and your appetite for making incremental improvements for the money. I have, and was very happy with, my Martin Logan Dynamo 800x. This is part of their new line with built in DSP. Sounds amazing - deep, tight, not muddy or boomy once dialed in. Very easy to implement with the Anthem DSP.

I came across another unit of the same of B stock in ebay for a substantial discount. So, now I'm running two. The improvement is there, I notice it. The sub is a moderately powered 10", so running two pressurizes the room a little more and really stands out when listening to modern music with the low end. Not as much when listening to Rock with a more balanced bass mix. It feels much more in control and more solid when pumping out bass.

Would I recommend it? Absolutely! Keep expectations in check - improvement will be there, but it will be subtle and incremental compared to adding the first sub.
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post #24 of 31 Old 04-19-2019, 08:38 AM
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Originally Posted by wadennis View Post
If I added a 2nd sub in position at the front of the room would I have the same situation? ie FL, sub, centre, sub, FR.
Placing both subs up front would give up cancelling the 30Hz and 89Hz resonances along the length of your room but would compensate by giving you smoother frequency response across the width of your room. Your 12' room width will have a different set of problem frequencies:



You can cancel the first 3 of these (47Hz, 94Hz, 141Hz) by placing a pair of subs at the ¼ and ¾ locations of room width (3 feet in from the side walls).



It will be all the more important to move your seating forward or rearward to get away from the huge peaks & nulls at the midpoint of room length that you're currently sitting near.
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post #25 of 31 Old 04-19-2019, 09:29 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Placing both subs up front would give up cancelling the 30Hz and 89Hz resonances along the length of your room but would compensate by giving you smoother frequency response across the width of your room. Your 12' room width will have a different set of problem frequencies:



You can cancel the first 3 of these (47Hz, 94Hz, 141Hz) by placing a pair of subs at the ¼ and ¾ locations of room width (3 feet in from the side walls).



It will be all the more important to move your seating forward or rearward to get away from the huge peaks & nulls at the midpoint of room length that you're currently sitting near.
I really appreciate the information that you have provided me but I have 1 more question. What would your opinion be of putting the single subwoofer at the back of the room?
Thanks
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post #26 of 31 Old 04-19-2019, 09:39 AM
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Originally Posted by wadennis View Post
What would your opinion be of putting the single subwoofer at the back of the room?
If you mean placing it at the back wall, then it would be the same as placing it at the front wall (will result in the same resonances, at the same frequencies). One thing you can try is placing the sub right behind the love seat for some nearfield bass (hear more of the sub and less of the room). Remember to re-calibrate whenever you move the sub.

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post #27 of 31 Old 04-19-2019, 04:35 PM
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I have dual subs and listen mostly to music and I think by adding the second sub there was a significant improvement. Although, I was adding an svs sb 2000 to an old velodyne ct-120 so most of the improvement was probably with the better svs sub. But I plan to replace the velodyne with another svs sub whenever it dies. If you add a second sub I agree with another poster about adding a sealed sub. I think that would show greater improvement over two pb 1000's.
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post #28 of 31 Old 04-20-2019, 04:20 AM
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I have dual subs and listen mostly to music and I think by adding the second sub there was a significant improvement. Although, I was adding an svs sb 2000 to an old velodyne ct-120 so most of the improvement was probably with the better svs sub. But I plan to replace the velodyne with another svs sub whenever it dies. If you add a second sub I agree with another poster about adding a sealed sub. I think that would show greater improvement over two pb 1000's.
This is incorrect. Adding a sealed SB2000 to a ported PB1000 is a terrible idea and will result in cancellation in the low frequencies between 15-30 Hz since the ported and sealed subs would be out of phase. In other words, you would get less bass in this region with both subs than with just the single PB1000.

Properly set up, the PB1000 will sound just as good on music as the SB2000, perhaps better on certain types of music. The only place where ported subs "technically" lose accuracy in comparison to a sealed sub is right around port tune. I say technically because in reality, a 20 Hz port tune will have no effect on 40Hz+ music. So in reality, it is quite accurate to say that a sealed sub will be almost as good for music as an equivalent ported sub. I say this because 40Hz+ they will be about the same. Below that, the ported sub will play with more SPL and MUCh lower distortion for music that goes very low such as electronica etc. Low distortion and extra output will have a much more significant impact on sound quality than a little bit of group delay around port tune. I mean, if we are pounding out some 20 Hz electronica, we aren't exactly listening for the fine detail of a plucked guitar string or something. We want to feel it.

So what is the benefit of sealed subs for music? Well, ported subs are larger and more expensive in order to get a lot more output around 20 Hz(or whatever port tune is). If primary or only use is music which is mainly 40 Hz+, we don't need the added size, output, and cost of the ported sub. So the advantages are smaller and cheaper. Not better.

I have sealed subs...but not because they are inherently superior in any way to ported subs. I have them because I have large drivers and sealed cabs keep them in a small enough cab to fit in my living room. Larger cabs would also cost me extra money to build. So again, smaller and cheaper.

I know there are many with long held beliefs that sealed subs are tighter, faster, more accurate, crisper, punchier, tastier etc etc. Blind comparisons make distinguishing between ported and sealed equivalent to random guesses. Now if you can see your preferred alignment and know its the one playing, its going to sound way crispier.
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post #29 of 31 Old 05-08-2019, 06:11 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by wadennis View Post
I recently replaced my subwoofer with a pb-1000. I am very happy with the improvement over my previous sub. I am looking for opinions on whether adding a 2nd pb-1000 will provide much of an improvement for music? I am not really all that concerned with movies. It is music which I really listen to at louder volume.
Thanks
I have been trying many different positions for my pb1000 & have found my sweet spot. My current placement has been a big improvement over other locations. Keeping in mind that I only have a couple listening positions would upgrading my pb1000 to a pb2000 be much of an improvement? I need to stick with SVS because I am in my 1 year upgrade window. Once I pay my return shipping on the pb1000 the price of the pb2000 will be about the same as adding a 2nd pb1000. I like the idea of having only the 1 sub in this location. SVS mentioned I could stack 2 pb1000 but not interested in that. I also have read that dual subs may not be an easy integration & in some cases will see no improvement. I listen to music & movies about 50/50 but with music at louder volumes.
My room is 12 x 19 with my single sub located about 18" away from front corner. All input welcome. Thanks
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post #30 of 31 Old 05-08-2019, 06:50 AM
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Originally Posted by MRAYB View Post
75% music is my usage in a large, 32'x22'x8' room, after a remodel. Started out with a used Denon 4311CI running a 7.1 setup. Really for a big game room (pool table, darts, bar) with occasional movie up in the front 1/3 of room. Adding the second sub was a MAJOR improvement in my situation. That brought me to add an amp and start running 9.2. Waited a couple months until the subs were on sale again and got two more. Now with another added amp running at 11.4 sounds amazing. Like sdurani said, the only downside is $$$. If you can swing it money wise, DO IT.

What subs are you running?

Video: Epson HC 1060 projector - Elite Screens Manual Grande Series - 128inch
Receiver: Emotiva Fusion 8100 / Amps: Emotiva XPA-3, UPA-700
Polk Signature Series - S20 for L/R, S35 Center, S15 Surrounds
Subwoofer PSA 2xV1801
Roku 4, Nvidia Shield, Darbee Darblet 5000
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