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post #121 of 146 Old 05-04-2019, 08:42 AM
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Yeah, that's two people. Those are just anecdotes, nothing even remotely close to consensus.

Anyway, this thread was already a mess, now it's fully off the rails, I'm outtie
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post #122 of 146 Old 05-04-2019, 08:53 AM
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Originally Posted by ratbuddy View Post
Yeah, that's two people. Those are just anecdotes, nothing even remotely close to consensus.

Anyway, this thread was already a mess, now it's fully off the rails, I'm outtie
Well, it's not the first time I've heard that about SVS.
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post #123 of 146 Old 05-04-2019, 11:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Kain View Post
Thanks.

I chose those particular subs because they have great sound quality. I'm not only after "booming" bass but also clean and articulate bass and these two subs have that. I actually currently own a single SubMersive so know how good it sounds.
Out of the two I would go with the most output down low since you are after that. IME I like lower excursion subs that have great midbass with speakers that can't play that low, and then I like high excursion drivers for the ULF with speakers than can pound the midbass. Since the high excursion subs have much more ULF I like that setup best. I know Seaton makes some 18s, I would just ask him what he thinks has the best low end of his subs. I know the JTR S2 would be great and their are a couple in the classifieds. I guess it depends on your speakers.

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post #124 of 146 Old 05-04-2019, 11:40 AM
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Hey this whole amps vs receivers thing is crazy. It all depends on room and speakers. Most have mentioned it but that calculator is not that accurate. One, I don't lose dB/meter like one would outside, I lose at most 6 dB from 12-13 feet away, according to that calculator it would be double. I always use reference levels for guidelines and I always watch at reference levels too, but I don't know any movies that would record 0dBfs with just one channel, nevermind all channels at the same time, this why AVRs do indeed work great even at reference levels. Now, if you are running a lower crossover for some bass in your speakers than you may need an amp to stay clean. You can hear the sonic differences when the AVR struggles and sounds harsh or too bright, where an amp might sound smooth and so called warmer, it is just that the AVR is running into distortion more than the amp. It can also be where the AVR is pushing out too much distortion on 4 ohm speakers where an amp stays clean. I went from a very powerful avr(actaully rated more power) than my amp and the amp is smoother with less watts, why? Because my speakers are 4 ohms and the amp stays clean with it, the AVR was fine, just not quite as clean.

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post #125 of 146 Old 05-04-2019, 12:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Kain View Post
From that post:
Those are garbage comments that can be dismissed out of hand. Just nonsense.
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post #126 of 146 Old 05-04-2019, 12:26 PM
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Yes, SVS subs measure flat with little distortion on DB. I am sure they sound great, even their older cylinder subs sound great.

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post #127 of 146 Old 05-04-2019, 12:37 PM
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I have stayed out of the amp discussion, because there are too many variables involved for me to want to generalize too much. But, as noted by MKtheater, the 6db per doubling of distance issue is a little more complex than most of the online calculators suggest.

Outdoors, SPL decreases by 6db for every doubling of distance. Indoors, boundary gain changes that. But, here is where I think it gets complicated. Boundary gain only affects frequencies below about 500Hz or so. Perhaps boundary gain can slightly affect some mid-range frequencies as well, but as noted earlier, it won't affect treble frequencies (played by tweeters) at all. If we measure full-band, or for frequencies under 500Hz, we will probably see about a 3db decrease in SPL for every doubling of distance.

So, it can become a little complicated to decide exactly how much volume we will lose for a doubling of distance, without specifying the frequencies we are measuring, and then examining the actual in-room results. I suspect that both density of construction and proximity to boundaries could make a difference in how much SPL is lost in a particular room, but some boundary gain should exist in virtually any indoor space of less than about 20,000^3. In any event, using 6db per doubling of distance indoors for bass or full-band sound is unlikely to be correct.

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post #128 of 146 Old 05-04-2019, 12:41 PM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
I have stayed out of the amp discussion, because there are too many variables involved for me to want to generalize too much. But, as noted by MKtheater, the 6db per doubling of distance issue is a little more complex than most of the online calculators suggest.

Outdoors, SPL decreases by 6db for every doubling of distance. Indoors, boundary gain changes that. But, here is where I think it gets complicated. Boundary gain only affects frequencies below about 500Hz or so. Perhaps boundary gain can slightly affect some mid-range frequencies as well, but as noted earlier, it won't affect treble frequencies (played by tweeters) at all. If we measure full-band, or for frequencies under 500Hz, we will probably see about a 3db decrease in SPL for every doubling of distance.

So, it can become a little complicated to decide exactly how much volume we will lose for a doubling of distance, without specifying the frequencies we are measuring, and then examining the actual in-room results. I suspect that both density of construction and proximity to boundaries could make a difference in how much SPL is lost in a particular room, but some boundary gain should exist in virtually any indoor space of less than about 20,000^3. In any event, using 6db per doubling of distance indoors for bass or full-band sound is unlikely to be correct.

Regards,
Mike
I was replying to a comment that was discussing a 87 dB sensitivity tweeter, not the sensitivity of the entire speaker. Fwiw.

Then there is the reality you don't want flat in room response. If you dial out the downward slope inevitably more power will be needed for mids and highs. Right up until the point where you have a blown tweeter, presumably.

Which, fwiw, is probably the only way most people will notice their amp clipped... When the tweeter fries.

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Last edited by imagic; 05-04-2019 at 12:46 PM.
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post #129 of 146 Old 05-04-2019, 12:42 PM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
It is axiomatic that if you are not clipping your competently-designed solid-state amps, you are in good shape.
Why do they have to be solid-state? Tubes could provide 16 channels of high-powered amplification, including to subs. Just because they're big, hot, heavy, and expensive doesn't mean they can't get the job done.

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It is also axiomatic that you gain nothing aside from headroom with such amps.
Or modularity and compartmentalization, for us folks with separate processing instead of AVRs.

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Now, this notion that there's a world of trouble awaiting people who deign to connect an amp to an AVR with an analog RCA cable... I dunno about that. I have not had issues but certainly am aware they can occur. Of course it's usually the ones who bought plastic "pro" amps and connected RCA AVR outputs to XLR inputs while plugging the amps into a different circuit than the AVR. I get that that happens.
The problem there is legacy unbalanced connection type, not the external amps. I run 15 external pro amps, with external pro processing, but my prepro has XLR outputs, and I use some optical for isolation as well. Folks who engineer a system from components made to different standards shouldn't be surprised when they run into trouble...
Ground loops aren't exclusive to "plastic" pro amps, a lot of "old iron" had bad Pin 1 problems as well. It's the design, not the case material or amp weight that matters.
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post #130 of 146 Old 05-04-2019, 01:29 PM
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I think..........................Snip
I never thought I'd read a post written like William Shatner speaks...
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post #131 of 146 Old 05-04-2019, 05:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Kain View Post
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Pure audiophool snobbery. Notice how he quotes the prices of all the "good" subs, but not the SVS.

Every one of the other subs are at least twice the price of the SVS [The SVS is cheap(er), so it MUST sound worse]. "still don't understand why"
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post #132 of 146 Old 05-05-2019, 06:04 AM
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I hit down to 10hz with authority, and it's absolutely amazing! 🙂
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post #133 of 146 Old 05-05-2019, 09:58 AM
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Originally Posted by ratbuddy View Post
Yeah, that's two people. Those are just anecdotes, nothing even remotely close to consensus.

Anyway, this thread was already a mess, now it's fully off the rails, I'm outtie
Quote:
Originally Posted by Augerhandle View Post
Pure audiophool snobbery. Notice how he quotes the prices of all the "good" subs, but not the SVS.

Every one of the other subs are at least twice the price of the SVS [The SVS is cheap(er), so it MUST sound worse]. "still don't understand why"
I agree with both of you, but just look at the collection of posters, a couple of whom should know better , who "liked" that post. So it's probably not terribly surprising that Kain might come away thinking this to be a bit of a consensus given that this anecdote received multi-poster support.:


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post #134 of 146 Old 05-14-2019, 10:52 PM
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I saws this thread for exactly what it was, troll bait. I was weak and couldn't resist. More and more of the preacher preaching to the choir and I kept telling myself stop reading it's not worth it. I completely agree with the majority of the posters and crave sub 20Hz energy like most here. I thought it was a complete waste of my time to continue reading until I found this one gem, which I have carefully selected for any others who stumble upon this thread and start at the end of the discussion instead of the beginning. If you are looking for anything of value in this thread besides the obvious head nodding agreements, it is the chuckle that you will receive from the following quoted material.

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Originally Posted by torii View Post
the same thing can be said about spl vs space. 110db spl in a bathroom would kill me, but 140+ db at nasa launch 20 miles away is nothing.
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Originally Posted by B3ntwooki3 View Post
If you are producing 110db in the bathroom you should see a doctor.
@B3ntwooki3 I salute you.
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post #135 of 146 Old 05-15-2019, 08:03 AM
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point was size of your space has great impact on sensitivity towards bass

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post #136 of 146 Old 05-15-2019, 01:53 PM
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point was size of your space has great impact on sensitivity towards bass
I'm not sure if this was obvious but I was making a joke about producing 110db in the bathroom using instruments other than your subwoofer.
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post #137 of 146 Old 05-15-2019, 02:00 PM
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I'm not sure if this was obvious but I was making a joke about producing 110db in the bathroom using instruments other than your subwoofer.

yea....thought it was pretty clear. funny also.

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post #138 of 146 Old 05-17-2019, 09:40 AM
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So, if you're sensing anything under 20Hz:
-merely port resonance/chuffing/harmonics
-never existed in air, disqualified frequency
-wasn't recorded by a mic, doesn't exist
-pipe organs are a vatican conspiracy
-impossible because theaters don't even
-EQ is cheating


I can understand maybe someone just does not care for those lowest of frequencies, or possibly even truly believes the above logical fallacies, but to be so passionate about it to try and convince others is just fascinating from a psychological perspective... and on an A/V enthusiasts' site no less! Well at least he finally tapped out.

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post #139 of 146 Old 05-17-2019, 11:09 AM
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Just because an endeavor is difficult, expensive, or impractical doesn't make it impossible, unenjoyable, or useless.
Sounds more like an obsession. Or bragging rights fodder. Many purists won't even use a subwoofer. A system going down only to 40Hz works for them. My system mains spec down to 19Hz. Do I care? Not really, but if it trips your trigger, go for it. Just stop trying so hard to convince everyone else. You system, your money, your goals.
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post #140 of 146 Old 05-17-2019, 11:36 AM
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Sounds more like an obsession. Or bragging rights fodder. Many purists won't even use a subwoofer. A system going down only to 40Hz works for them. My system mains spec down to 19Hz. Do I care? Not really, but if it trips your trigger, go for it. Just stop trying so hard to convince everyone else. You system, your money, your goals.
"Purists" lol. They can stick their heads in the sand and spend money on power cable upgrades and skip a perfectly good and audible octave of audio!

Of course, preference>reference because people are people. That's how it is.
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post #141 of 146 Old 05-17-2019, 11:48 AM
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My favorite is when they skip below 20hz which is easily felt at any age, but I don't see many of these older audiophiles skipping over 10khz which they can't hear. Man, many brag about their 40khz speakers.
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post #142 of 146 Old 05-17-2019, 11:48 AM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
"Purists" lol. They can stick their heads in the sand and spend money on power cable upgrades and skip a perfectly good and audible octave of audio!

Of course, preference>reference because people are people. That's how it is.
Obsessive and offensive?
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post #143 of 146 Old 05-17-2019, 11:54 AM
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Obsessive and offensive?
If an audiophile purist is offended by having their folly pointed out to them, perhaps they can translate that into a learning moment? Not really sure what else to say. This is AVS Forum, not some goofy anti-subwoofer society.
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post #144 of 146 Old 05-17-2019, 12:27 PM
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Just because an endeavor is difficult, expensive, or impractical doesn't make it impossible, unenjoyable, or useless.

Exactly. Those endeavors can turn out to be the most enjoyable.
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post #145 of 146 Old 05-17-2019, 10:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kjfalls View Post
Sounds more like an obsession. Or bragging rights fodder. Many purists won't even use a subwoofer. A system going down only to 40Hz works for them. My system mains spec down to 19Hz. Do I care? Not really, but if it trips your trigger, go for it. Just stop trying so hard to convince everyone else. You system, your money, your goals.

Purist? Edison's dog was the first purist.


Purist, then and now:



Since S-T-E-R-E-O, they've come up with all sorts of technology. Subwoofers, surround sound speakers, Lossless audio, object based ATMOS (of course, ATMOS won't work with directional speaker cables, but hey, you can't have it all).


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post #146 of 146 Old 05-27-2019, 04:04 PM
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Originally Posted by kjfalls View Post
Sounds more like an obsession.
Well, we're here on an audio forum with hundreds of posts to our credit, debating fine points. I guess we are *all* obsessed.

Quote:
Or bragging rights fodder.
I'd hope folks would be proud of attempting such endeavors! I certainly encourage others to share their approaches so I can learn from them. Again, kinda why we're all here...

Quote:
Many purists won't even use a subwoofer. A system going down only to 40Hz works for them.
It might work well for them, especially if they prefer vinyl. But limiting the frequency range doesn't make it *accurate*. The very statement that it's a personal choice implies that they can hear a difference, but they prefer their way over the other. I don't think you could call intentional coloration over accurate reproduction "purist", more like "intentionally crippled". Maybe "minimalist" at best, but less is rarely more in electronics or sound reproduction.
Regardless, it's folly to chase sub frequencies with mains speakers, because optimal placement for both duties very rarely coincides in real rooms.

Quote:
My system mains spec down to 19Hz. Do I care? Not really, but if it trips your trigger, go for it.
I'm guessing since you're throwing out a "spec" and you don't really care, that you haven't done any testing (e.g., REW sweeps) to see what your mains actually do in your listening space? I know you know about room modes and nulls. I agree with you that manufacturers' low frequency specs are almost worthless, and only taking the effort to measure and integrate can deliver good results in the lower frequencies. I have an idea of what my mains should be capable of anechoicly, since I made design choices when I built them. That's nice on paper, but it's how they integrate in my room that matters. I don't care how low (At what *volume*? At what distortion? For how long?) my mains can go, as that will never be their job, so long as they crossover well with the subs.

Quote:
Just stop trying so hard to convince everyone else. You system, your money, your goals.
Yes, yes, and... not really. If you want accuracy, you can't summarily throw away data because you don't want to reproduce it. A lot of us are proponents of sub-20Hz because we acknowledge its intentional existence, and we aim for the most accurate reproduction possible. If you don't like the sound, expense, or trouble of it, just don't call what you're doing "sound reproduction", "accurate", "hi-fi", or "science", because it's not.
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