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post #121 of 220 Old 05-14-2019, 01:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Droidboi View Post
When doing what you say no. It goes away with 2 o'clock and -9 and doing what you did landed me at -10.
How loud is the sub when it starts "flapping?" As Alan said, it seems like you may be pushing it too hard (which makes it seem like you would be in the mother of nulls if it isn't loud enough for you when running it that hard!).



Attach some graphs so we can see what is going on, if you get a chance.
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post #122 of 220 Old 05-14-2019, 01:17 PM
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After you get the sub properly level matched (following Ed's instructions here to the letter), take the following measurements:

- 10hz to 300hz, HDMI Output CH3
- 10hz to 300hz, HDMI Output CH4

Label the measurements clearly and save them, then share your .MDAT file here (using DropBox or another file sharing site).
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post #123 of 220 Old 05-14-2019, 01:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
After you get the sub properly level matched (following Ed's instructions here to the letter), take the following measurements:

- 10hz to 300hz, HDMI Output CH3
- 10hz to 300hz, HDMI Output CH4

Label the measurements clearly and save them, then share your .MDAT file here (using DropBox or another file sharing site).
Can't i just screenshot ?
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post #124 of 220 Old 05-14-2019, 01:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
After you get the sub properly level matched (following Ed's instructions here to the letter), take the following measurements:

- 10hz to 300hz, HDMI Output CH3
- 10hz to 300hz, HDMI Output CH4

Label the measurements clearly and save them, then share your .MDAT file here (using DropBox or another file sharing site).
I took a screenshot
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post #125 of 220 Old 05-14-2019, 01:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
After you get the sub properly level matched (following Ed's instructions here to the letter), take the following measurements:

- 10hz to 300hz, HDMI Output CH3
- 10hz to 300hz, HDMI Output CH4

Label the measurements clearly and save them, then share your .MDAT file here (using DropBox or another file sharing site).
So one last question. When measuring the entire range (10-20 000) should the bass be flat with the speakers or should it be louder?
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post #126 of 220 Old 05-14-2019, 01:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Droidboi View Post
I took a screenshot
With how you have it set here, is it both loud enough and not making any weird noises?
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post #127 of 220 Old 05-14-2019, 01:28 PM - Thread Starter
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With how you have it set here, is it both loud enough and not making any weird noises?
Um yeah i Think so. Pretty late so i can't really turn it up. It should not be making the noise now but it is still just on the safe level and not much headroom to increase without getting the noise again. I still feel pretty weird about this. If i turn it down all the way to 75 db i don't Think i would be feeling a thing from the suwboofer. I do still have the bass shaker tho
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post #128 of 220 Old 05-14-2019, 01:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Ed Mullen View Post
Just to give you an idea of the difference between A-weighted, C-weighted and Z-weighted - go here.

In the bandwidth of the subwoofer test tone - an A-weighted SPL meter will read about 30-40 dB too low. Meaning if the meter says 75 dB, it's actually about 110 dB. This explains why the subwoofer is overloading at what you thought was a level match.

If you were using this SPL meter to calibrate your SB-1000s, it would also explain why they were overloading too.

Please use the SPL meter in REW after you load the UMIK-1 calibration file. Be sure to select Z-weighted (i.e., unweighted).

If you aren't sure how to load the UMIK-1 cal file, Alan P is an expert user and can assist you.
So all this time i've been blasting 100 db+? I never even felt uncomftarble. THose levels should be very damaging
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post #129 of 220 Old 05-14-2019, 01:34 PM
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Um yeah i Think so. Pretty late so i can't really turn it up. It should not be making the noise now but it is still just on the safe level and not much headroom to increase without getting the noise again. I still feel pretty weird about this. If i turn it down all the way to 75 db i don't Think i would be feeling a thing from the suwboofer. I do still have the bass shaker tho
Pretty sure this thing should be able to get 91dB+ [especially with the small room], but other than that (the possible lack of headroom), glad to hear that you are finally getting it setup correctly.


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So all this time i've been blasting 100 db+? I never even felt uncomftarble. THose levels should be very damaging
Eh, unless you were listening to some Bassotronics, I doubt it would be too damaging (for you/other things).
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post #130 of 220 Old 05-14-2019, 01:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Ed Mullen View Post
Just to give you an idea of the difference between A-weighted, C-weighted and Z-weighted - go here.

In the bandwidth of the subwoofer test tone - an A-weighted SPL meter will read about 30-40 dB too low. Meaning if the meter says 75 dB, it's actually about 110 dB. This explains why the subwoofer is overloading at what you thought was a level match.

If you were using this SPL meter to calibrate your SB-1000s, it would also explain why they were overloading too.

Please use the SPL meter in REW after you load the UMIK-1 calibration file. Be sure to select Z-weighted (i.e., unweighted).

If you aren't sure how to load the UMIK-1 cal file, Alan P is an expert user and can assist you.
I couldn't find where it said A weighted on the website
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post #131 of 220 Old 05-14-2019, 01:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Droidboi View Post
I couldn't find where it said A weighted on the website
https://www.velleman.eu/products/view/?id=420570
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frequency weighting: A
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post #132 of 220 Old 05-14-2019, 01:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Droidboi View Post
I took a screenshot
Great....but what is this measuring? Center + sub (CH3), LFE (CH4), something else?? We need that information to help you.

An MDAT file is easy to share and would help us help you instead of this constant back-and-forth.


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Originally Posted by Droidboi View Post
So one last question. When measuring the entire range (10-20 000) should the bass be flat with the speakers or should it be louder?
It should be louder. Google "Fletcher-Munson Curve".


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So all this time i've been blasting 100 db+? I never even felt uncomftarble. THose levels should be very damaging
100dB worth of bass will not damage anything...not your ears, not your house.


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Originally Posted by Droidboi View Post
I couldn't find where it said A weighted on the website
Z is green, C is red, A is blue. Zoom in on the pic if it is hard for you to see.

EDIT: Nevermind, I thought you meant the pic that Ed shared with you not your SPL meter.
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post #133 of 220 Old 05-14-2019, 01:49 PM
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Originally Posted by JediMindTrick View Post
It also says dBA which is short for A-weighted.

+++++++++++++++

While tastes in bass calibration level certainly vary - it is common to run the subwoofer 2-4 dB louder than the speaker channels.

Running the subwoofer 6 dB hotter than the speaker channels is literally a doubling of the sound pressure level from the subwoofer and will not sound balanced to most listeners.

Remember, the mixing engineers and director mixed the soundtrack to sound correct/intended with the subwoofer running at the same level as the speaker channels.

You may consider that to be 'laughably low' but I would encourage you to recalibrate your ears and your expectations and learn to live with the subwoofer level running either level matched or a few dB hot. Even a 3 dB increase is literally a 42% increase in sound pressure level and is considered plenty hot by most enthusiasts.

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post #134 of 220 Old 05-14-2019, 01:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Great....but what is this measuring? Center + sub (CH3), LFE (CH4), something else?? We need that information to help you.

An MDAT file is easy to share and would help us help you instead of this constant back-and-forth.




It should be louder. Google "Fletcher-Munson Curve".




100dB worth of bass will not damage anything...not your ears, not your house.




Z is green, C is red, A is blue. Zoom in on the pic if it is hard for you to see.

EDIT: Nevermind, I thought you meant the pic that Ed shared with you not your SPL meter.
Thank you guys so much. This all makes alot of sense. Okay so it's very late here gonna have to come back tommorrow and properly set it up for once. Also i just measured in stereo so jusr fron left+right+the sub
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Originally Posted by Ed Mullen View Post
It also says dBA which is short for A-weighted.

+++++++++++++++

While tastes in bass calibration level certainly vary - it is common to run the subwoofer 2-4 dB louder than the speaker channels.

Running the subwoofer 6 dB hotter than the speaker channels is literally a doubling of the sound pressure level from the subwoofer and will not sound balanced to most listeners.

Remember, the mixing engineers and director mixed the soundtrack to sound correct/intended with the subwoofer running at the same level as the speaker channels.

You may consider that to be 'laughably low' but I would encourage you to recalibrate your ears and your expectations and learn to live with the subwoofer level running either level matched or a few dB hot. Even a 3 dB increase is literally a 42% increase in sound pressure level and is considered plenty hot by most enthusiasts.
Got it boss. I also realize when looking back that the suwboofer has been pretty distracting which according to alot of people it should not be. There are a lot of times when it has sounded very boomy
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post #136 of 220 Old 05-14-2019, 02:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Droidboi View Post
Thank you guys so much. This all makes alot of sense. Okay so it's very late here gonna have to come back tommorrow and properly set it up for once. Also i just measured in stereo so jusr fron left+right+the sub
Are you not using an HDMI connection with REW? I was asking which HDMI output channel you are using when taking measurements.

There is no need to measure L+R+Sub...you want to measure either L+Sub or R+Sub, not both together. If you are mostly home theater (movies), you should be mostly concerned with the center+Sub.

Have you been reading AustinJerry's REW guide (linked in my sig)? If so, I think you should do a bit more reading.
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post #137 of 220 Old 05-14-2019, 02:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Ed Mullen View Post
It also says dBA which is short for A-weighted.

+++++++++++++++

While tastes in bass calibration level certainly vary - it is common to run the subwoofer 2-4 dB louder than the speaker channels.

Running the subwoofer 6 dB hotter than the speaker channels is literally a doubling of the sound pressure level from the subwoofer and will not sound balanced to most listeners.

Remember, the mixing engineers and director mixed the soundtrack to sound correct/intended with the subwoofer running at the same level as the speaker channels.

You may consider that to be 'laughably low' but I would encourage you to recalibrate your ears and your expectations and learn to live with the subwoofer level running either level matched or a few dB hot. Even a 3 dB increase is literally a 42% increase in sound pressure level and is considered plenty hot by most enthusiasts.

Hi Ed,

I really like the fact that you were so helpful with the advice you gave, especially the step-by-step advice in an earlier post. I do, however, want to add something to what you said in your post. Film mixers mix bass, including the special effects, to be in equilibrium with the other frequencies at or near Reference levels. As you know, a film recorded to have peak levels of 105/115db, in a commercial theater (a BR theatrical release), will sound anywhere from 5 to 7db louder than that in most home theaters (depending on room size).

But, most people (even on AVS) don't watch movies at a master volume level of somewhere between -7 and 0.0 (Reference on a calibrated system). The average volume level on AVS, from any number of sources, is probably somewhere between about -10 and -20MV, with many people listening at even lower levels than that rough average. As the listening levels drop, bass frequencies drop faster than those in our normal hearing range, as illustrated by the Equal Loudness Contours. I know that you know all this!

The important point is that even a 6db increase in all of the bass frequencies played by the subwoofer, and not just the lowest frequencies, is actually a very modest increase at -15 or -20MV, and is not sufficient for most people to restore the acoustic equilibrium intended by a particular film mixer. That is even before we take into account variances in individual hearing and issues of personal preference. It is difficult to make generalizations about this sort of thing, but from years of monitoring the Audyssey thread a pretty consistent pattern has emerged.

Even with DEQ engaged, with it's bass boosts which are intended to restore acoustic equilibrium at below Reference listening levels, most DEQ users add anywhere from 3 to 6db on top of DEQ. Of course, that also varies by listening level, but that is a pretty consistent average. For users of calibrated HT systems not employing DEQ, individual subwoofer boosts are typically higher. This is something I have monitored fairly carefully on any number of subwoofer threads over the years, and I am pretty sure of my ground.

It really does make sense that a 3db, or even a 6db subwoofer boost, might sound pretty modest as volume levels drop, because our hearing drops off so much faster for frequencies below 120Hz. Then, you have to factor in the special effects in some movies and the low-bass tactile effects that some people also enjoy. Those aren't governed by the Equal Loudness Contours, but they are still subject to effects from the addition of subwoofer volume.

It's an interesting subject, and one that is governed by so many factors of room gain, listening level, individual hearing, desire for tactile effects, etc, that it's hard to generalize that others should find a +3 to +6db boost in subwoofer volume sufficient to achieve either a balanced or a preferred bass level. Sorry to derail the thread a little, but I thought this was worth pointing out.

Regards,
Mike
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GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.

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post #138 of 220 Old 05-14-2019, 02:30 PM
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It also says dBA which is short for A-weighted.

+++++++++++++++

While tastes in bass calibration level certainly vary - it is common to run the subwoofer 2-4 dB louder than the speaker channels.

Running the subwoofer 6 dB hotter than the speaker channels is literally a doubling of the sound pressure level from the subwoofer and will not sound balanced to most listeners.

Remember, the mixing engineers and director mixed the soundtrack to sound correct/intended with the subwoofer running at the same level as the speaker channels.

You may consider that to be 'laughably low' but I would encourage you to recalibrate your ears and your expectations and learn to live with the subwoofer level running either level matched or a few dB hot. Even a 3 dB increase is literally a 42% increase in sound pressure level and is considered plenty hot by most enthusiasts.
Wow, I feel dumb! Didn't know dBA stood for that. Thanks!

While I almost completely agree, I think personal preference is still important.

I (PERSONALLY) think sound is similar enough to cooking, there may be a "right" way to cook a steak, but at the end of the day, someone (me, in the case of running the sub hotter) will still put some catsup on it and think it tastes good ! I am a big fan of the stuff in this thread: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...ed-movies.html

I did misspeak though, only my ULF is boosted by a lot (it looks like an exponential decay graph that starts at say 90dB for ~18hz and flattens out to 70ish dB at around 60hz). This is almost exclusively for film (my mini-marty only gets turned on during 3D/action movies, my other subs are 'good-enough' for most other content [and pretty flat]). If my glassware didn't shake so much, I would probably use the marty more!
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post #139 of 220 Old 05-14-2019, 02:56 PM
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Hi Ed,

I really like the fact that you were so helpful with the advice you gave, especially the step-by-step advice in an earlier post. I do, however, want to add something to what you said in your post. Film mixers mix bass, including the special effects, to be in equilibrium with the other frequencies at or near Reference levels. As you know, a film recorded to have peak levels of 105/115db, in a commercial theater (a BR theatrical release), will sound anywhere from 5 to 7db louder than that in most home theaters (depending on room size).

But, most people (even on AVS) don't watch movies at a master volume level of somewhere between -7 and 0.0 (Reference on a calibrated system). The average volume level on AVS, from any number of sources, is probably somewhere between about -10 and -20MV, with many people listening at even lower levels than that rough average. As the listening levels drop, bass frequencies drop faster than those in our normal hearing range, as illustrated by the Equal Loudness Contours. I know that you know all this!

The important point is that even a 6db increase in all of the bass frequencies played by the subwoofer, and not just the lowest frequencies, is actually a very modest increase at -15 or -20MV, and is not sufficient for most people to restore the acoustic equilibrium intended by a particular film mixer. That is even before we take into account variances in individual hearing and issues of personal preference. It is difficult to make generalizations about this sort of thing, but from years of monitoring the Audyssey thread a pretty consistent pattern has emerged.

Even with DEQ engaged, with it's bass boosts which are intended to restore acoustic equilibrium at below Reference listening levels, most DEQ users add anywhere from 3 to 6db on top of DEQ. Of course, that also varies by listening level, but that is a pretty consistent average. For users of calibrated HT systems not employing DEQ, individual subwoofer boosts are typically higher. This is something I have monitored fairly carefully on any number of subwoofer threads over the years, and I am pretty sure of my ground.

It really does make sense that a 3db, or even a 6db subwoofer boost, might sound pretty modest as volume levels drop, because our hearing drops off so much faster for frequencies below 120Hz. Then, you have to factor in the special effects in some movies and the low-bass tactile effects that some people also enjoy. Those aren't governed by the Equal Loudness Contours, but they are still subject to effects from the addition of subwoofer volume.

It's an interesting subject, and one that is governed by so many factors of room gain, listening level, individual hearing, desire for tactile effects, etc, that it's hard to generalize that others should find a +3 to +6db boost in subwoofer volume sufficient to achieve either a balanced or a preferred bass level. Sorry to derail the thread a little, but I thought this was worth pointing out.

Regards,
Mike
Yep - all good and agree with above.

For me - DEQ takes care of virtually all of the psychoacoustic equal loudness issues. I run my subwoofer channel 2 dB hot and keep DEQ on and typically listen to a Blu-ray at/near -8 to -6 in my reference theater (which is fully treated).

In the end, individual tastes will dictate the final subwoofer calibration level (which is what I led with earlier). With that said, Droidboi clearly needed some context and a frame of reference - he was using an A-weighted SPL meter which resulted in the subwoofer channel running at least 30 dB hot - which even the most ardent bass head would find excessive.

So I was sharing the subwoofer calibration preferences of the vast majority of our customers (most of whom do not frequent this forum) - and that's about 2-4 dB hot.

Hopefully Droidboi will land somewhere south of 8 dB. He's got a nice looking FR at any rate...…..

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Although not having "c" weighted SPL meter clearly messing with the OP's measurements as well as some needed REW tweaking,,,, nobody has further commented on the "null" MLP location, unless i missed it somewhere. He posted having his PB2000 at "full gain" which only returned a -1 AVR trim after room correction In that small space i would think with proper sub/MLP placement he could have sub gain closer to half,,, and be well into (-) trim levels giving him all the headroom he could want.
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Although not having "c" weighted SPL meter clearly messing with the OP's measurements as well as some needed REW tweaking,,,, nobody has further commented on the "null" MLP location, unless i missed it somewhere. He posted having his PB2000 at "full gain" which only returned a -1 AVR trim after room correction In that small space i would think with proper sub/MLP placement he could have sub gain closer to half,,, and be well into (-) trim levels giving him all the headroom he could want.
So just came back from calibrating. To level calibrate using REW i had to put it 3 ticks below 12 and -15 on the reciever. Hm wow this is much lower than i had it Before. If this is correct then i'm fine with it tho
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Are you not using an HDMI connection with REW? I was asking which HDMI output channel you are using when taking measurements.

There is no need to measure L+R+Sub...you want to measure either L+Sub or R+Sub, not both together. If you are mostly home theater (movies), you should be mostly concerned with the center+Sub.

Have you been reading AustinJerry's REW guide (linked in my sig)? If so, I think you should do a bit more reading.
Yup HDMI from PC to aux on the reciever
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So just came back from calibrating. To level calibrate using REW i had to put it 3 ticks below 12 and -15 on the reciever. Hm wow this is much lower than i had it Before. If this is correct then i'm fine with it tho
Yeah damn i'm gonna need a lot of time to adjust to this
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So just came back from calibrating. To level calibrate using REW i had to put it 3 ticks below 12 and -15 on the reciever. Hm wow this is much lower than i had it Before. If this is correct then i'm fine with it tho
Should i raise it a Little bit maybe?
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post #145 of 220 Old 05-14-2019, 10:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Droidboi View Post
Should i raise it a Little bit maybe?
Or does this look better? The is the same suwboofer gain but -8 on the reciever
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post #146 of 220 Old 05-14-2019, 10:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Droidboi View Post
Should i raise it a Little bit maybe?
This is the same suwboofer gain with -8 on reciever:
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post #147 of 220 Old 05-14-2019, 10:47 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Droidboi View Post
This is the same suwboofer gain with -8 on reciever:
Here is with -8 on reciever
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post #148 of 220 Old 05-14-2019, 11:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Droidboi View Post
Should i raise it a Little bit maybe?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Droidboi View Post
Here is with -8 on reciever
The scale you're using here is not really useful. Take a full range measurement targeting 75dB, once you have your graph click the "Limits" button on the top right of REW and set top dB to 105 and bottom dB to 45, set left Hz to 15 and right Hz to 200 - take a snap of that. Then set right Hz to 20, 000, use 1/6 smoothing and take a snap of that. I have a feeling you're running your sub a lot hotter than your graph would indicate.

Last edited by Ken Masters; 05-15-2019 at 01:25 AM.
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post #149 of 220 Old 05-15-2019, 06:25 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Ken Masters View Post
The scale you're using here is not really useful. Take a full range measurement targeting 75dB, once you have your graph click the "Limits" button on the top right of REW and set top dB to 105 and bottom dB to 45, set left Hz to 15 and right Hz to 200 - take a snap of that. Then set right Hz to 20, 000, use 1/6 smoothing and take a snap of that. I have a feeling you're running your sub a lot hotter than your graph would indicate.
Okay i did what you said and this is how it looks
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post #150 of 220 Old 05-15-2019, 06:29 AM - Thread Starter
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Okay i did what you said and this is how it looks
That's with -15 and this is -8
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