Jtr 2400 vs 2400Ulf vs PSA V3611 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 33 Old 05-15-2019, 02:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Jtr 2400 vs 2400Ulf vs PSA V3611

Guys I really would love everyone's opinion. I'm a long time lurker and have learned a lot from you guys. But I have a dilemma. I currently own 2 pb2000's and I'm unimpressed with them. I need I crave a lot more bass. Chess thumping bass. I have been researching these subs and really can't make a decision which one I should buy. I only have enough for 1 for now.

Of these what is the recommended sub? My room is a dedicated room enclosed. Size of room is 12×22 8ft ceilings. Also I'm a car audio guy and enjoy that style of bass. I assume its mid bass I'm looking for? It would be for 90% movies.

Thanks in advance guys.

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post #2 of 33 Old 05-15-2019, 04:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cagerone View Post
Guys I really would love everyone's opinion. I'm a long time lurker and have learned a lot from you guys. But I have a dilemma. I currently own 2 pb2000's and I'm unimpressed with them. I need I crave a lot more bass. Chess thumping bass. I have been researching these subs and really can't make a decision which one I should buy. I only have enough for 1 for now.

Of these what is the recommended sub? My room is a dedicated room enclosed. Size of room is 12×22 8ft ceilings. Also I'm a car audio guy and enjoy that style of bass. I assume its mid bass I'm looking for? It would be for 90% movies.

Thanks in advance guys.

Hi,

If you are looking mainly for mid-bass, then it wouldn't be a close call. The V3611 is much more of a mid-bass specialist than either of the other two subwoofers you listed. Both of the Cap 2400's were specifically designed to be low-bass specialists. In the past, PSA specialized much more in mid-bass SPL, with more roll-off below about 25Hz, and JTR specialized with those two subs in low-bass, with a 10Hz port tune and a lot of <25Hz SPL.

Fast-forwarding to today, PSA is in the process of introducing some new subwoofers, the TV36, which offer comparable mid-bass to the V3611 with a 13.5Hz port tune and a lot more <25Hz SPL than the V3611 has. Knowing that you especially want more mid-bass, you could just go with the current V3611, and there will be some coming up in the PSA outlet in a couple of weeks or so at reduced prices. That's when the first new subwoofers will be arriving to the people who are pre-ordering the new subs, and trading-in their old ones. PSA will refurbish anything necessary and sell the trade-ins at reduced prices with the same warranty.

But, if I were you, I would spend a little more and get either the new TV36 with the Neo driver, or best case, the TV36 with the iPal driver. I think they would give you exactly what you are looking for with respect to the chest pounding mid-bass, but they would also give you much more low-frequency performance than the V3611. Win-win!

The two different versions of the TV36 I mentioned have higher quality drivers in them, with the iPal being the best. They are larger, more powerful, and more expensive subwoofers than the current V3611, but if I were you, that is what I would buy. I should have added that I believe you still have time to get in on the pre-order pricing on the new TV36 subs.

Regards,
Mike

GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.

Last edited by mthomas47; 05-15-2019 at 04:32 PM.
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post #3 of 33 Old 05-15-2019, 04:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks Mike. That actually sounds like a great idea. Few questions what are the prices on the TV36 subwoofers? Also what is the diffrence between the two driver wise?

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post #4 of 33 Old 05-15-2019, 07:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cagerone View Post
Thanks Mike. That actually sounds like a great idea. Few questions what are the prices on the TV36 subwoofers? Also what is the diffrence between the two driver wise?

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Hey check out the PSA subwoofer thread for the full breakdown.

I believe this is the page that Tom breaks down the different versions..

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...601.html?amp=1


And here is a quick snip of his post -


TV36 = standard 18 inch woofers we've been using with outstanding results for quite a while now. Full details on available on any current 18 inch based product page on the website. $2199 pre-order. $2599 is the estimated regular pricing. -----------------------------------------------------------------------


TV36neo = A high end Neo woofer from Italy(B&C). Exceptional distortion control, exceptionally strong motor, build quality and power handling/thermal limits are far beyond anything we've offered to date. $2599 pre-order. $2999 is the estimated regular pricing. https://www.bcspeakers.com/en/produc...-0/4/18ds115-4
This one sound a bit different than the base version. Better overall. Similar <25hz to the base version but this driver is such a beast in efficiency it goes toe-toe with the V3611 in 40-100hz without breaking a sweat. So my one line description would be. ~ The TV36neo give you all of the violent mid and upper bass of the V3611 while pressurizing the room down to 10hz and below. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------

TV36ipal + Ipal 18" woofer. Arguably the highest quality 18 inch woofer available anywhere, at any price. $2999 pre-order. $3599 is the estimated regular pricing. https://www.bcspeakers.com/en/produc.../18-0/2/18ipal
The cleanest, most linear, strongest motor woofer I have ever used/measured...and there's been nothing even remotely close. The sound quality reflects this as well. I'm not going to wax poetically, that's always been difficult. But our proprietary ICE design match with IPAL technology is truly something special
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post #5 of 33 Old 05-15-2019, 11:05 PM
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Honestly I wouldn't overlook the midbass capability of the JTR subs either ,the 2400ULF did test a bit lower than expected in the midbass, but I think that was a bit of an anomaly


The JTR 2400 puts out some serious numbers above 40Hz , over 120dB of midbass inside a room is no joke!





Cap 1400 (older model)





Cap118HT (older model)



a single of any of these will have reference level bass capability in the midbass range, duals of the Cap2400 would have 125dB+ in the 40-100hz range, along with prodigious amounts of low bass

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post #6 of 33 Old 05-16-2019, 07:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cagerone View Post
Guys I really would love everyone's opinion. I'm a long time lurker and have learned a lot from you guys. But I have a dilemma. I currently own 2 pb2000's and I'm unimpressed with them. I need I crave a lot more bass. Chess thumping bass. I have been researching these subs and really can't make a decision which one I should buy. I only have enough for 1 for now.

Of these what is the recommended sub? My room is a dedicated room enclosed. Size of room is 12&#215;22 8ft ceilings. Also I'm a car audio guy and enjoy that style of bass. I assume its mid bass I'm looking for? It would be for 90% movies.

Thanks in advance guys.
If you are looking for mid-bass slam then PSA all day
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post #7 of 33 Old 05-16-2019, 12:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jamiebosco View Post
Honestly I wouldn't overlook the midbass capability of the JTR subs either ,the 2400ULF did test a bit lower than expected in the midbass, but I think that was a bit of an anomaly


The JTR 2400 puts out some serious numbers above 40Hz , over 120dB of midbass inside a room is no joke!



a single of any of these will have reference level bass capability in the midbass range, duals of the Cap2400 would have 125dB+ in the 40-100hz range, along with prodigious amounts of low bass


Jamie is correct that the JTR Cap 2400 in either version is no joke in the mid-bass. As he notes, the Cap 2400 will average about 120db from 50Hz to 120Hz, although there will be some distortion at those max levels. But, just for comparison, the V3611 will average 126db in that same range, allowing for much more clean output, without distortion. And, that is the equivalent of dual Cap 2400's.

Where the Cap 2400, in both versions excels, is in the lower frequencies. Compared to the V3611, there would be no contest below about 30Hz. The Cap 2400's would have much more low-frequency output. What makes the new iPal (or even the Neo) TV36 so attractive is the potential to exceed the V3611 in mid-bass SPL while equaling (or very nearly that) the output of the Cap 2400's down to about 12.5Hz.

Competition is only positive for consumers, so subwoofer buyers have some very good choices now, at varying sizes and price points.

Regards,
Mike
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post #8 of 33 Old 05-16-2019, 01:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks guys. The TV36 ipal is looking very interesting to me. Can anyone point me out to somewhere where I can learn more about the ipal and the neo? I'm now debating between the TV36 neo and ipal. Thanks in advance

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post #9 of 33 Old 05-16-2019, 01:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cagerone View Post
Guys I really would love everyone's opinion. I'm a long time lurker and have learned a lot from you guys. But I have a dilemma. I currently own 2 pb2000's and I'm unimpressed with them. I need I crave a lot more bass. Chess thumping bass. I have been researching these subs and really can't make a decision which one I should buy. I only have enough for 1 for now.

Of these what is the recommended sub? My room is a dedicated room enclosed. Size of room is 12&#215;22 8ft ceilings. Also I'm a car audio guy and enjoy that style of bass. I assume its mid bass I'm looking for? It would be for 90% movies.

Thanks in advance guys.
I think you should add the Rythmik FV25HP to that list. ULF output that rivals JTR and mid bass that rivals PSA.

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post #10 of 33 Old 05-16-2019, 01:16 PM
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I don't have any experience with them, but feasible to supplement your PB2K's with something like this, dedicated mid bass?

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Chess thumping bass.
:.D
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post #11 of 33 Old 05-16-2019, 06:58 PM
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Since you are looking for movies, I would think the JTR subs would have the max tactile response of the available main stream ID subs today.
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post #12 of 33 Old 05-16-2019, 08:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cagerone View Post
Thanks guys. The TV36 ipal is looking very interesting to me. Can anyone point me out to somewhere where I can learn more about the ipal and the neo? I'm now debating between the TV36 neo and ipal. Thanks in advance

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Along with the most excellent advice and suggestions you’ve gotten already, I would say this, try to find some people in your area with the subs you are considering and see if they will demo. Short of having each in your own room, this is the next best way to see what you truly like. There is a “I’ll demo my subs” thread in the sticky section. The new subs from PSA aren’t out yet but you could get somewhat of an idea of their sound sig from the v3601.........maybe, we really don’t know until they are in the wild.

Good luck

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post #13 of 33 Old 05-16-2019, 09:53 PM
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Have you considered the Rythmik FV18 with the paper cone?
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post #14 of 33 Old 05-16-2019, 09:54 PM - Thread Starter
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No I have not. I will look at it. Thanks.

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post #15 of 33 Old 05-16-2019, 09:57 PM
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Chest slam is from 50Hz to as high as 200Hz. This covers mid bass (40~100Hz) as well as upper bass (100~250Hz). You need high spl and/or high dynamics/transient response/attack without compression from 50~200Hz.

This means you are not gonna get chest slam at MV of -20dB. Getting a sub that can do 120dB is only a small part of it. You also need speakers that can deliver close to 105dB at the MLP. Speakers with higher efficiency can deliver the spl before compression and distortion set in. Start with at least Klipsch speakers, than go up to higher end high efficiency speakers from JTR or PSA.

I can get more chest slam from playing Ed Sheeran - Shape of You with my JTR Noesis 212HT's full range (no sub!) than from playing the night club scene in Mission: Impossible - Fall out with regular speakers and the JTR Captivator 4000ULF.

Now, this does not mean that the JTR Cap 4000ULF is bad at 40~80Hz. It is in fact the highest Data-bass tested current model commercial sub available. I am just pointing out that you need to cover all your bases.
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post #16 of 33 Old 05-19-2019, 08:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cagerone View Post
Guys I really would love everyone's opinion. I'm a long time lurker and have learned a lot from you guys. But I have a dilemma. I currently own 2 pb2000's and I'm unimpressed with them. I need I crave a lot more bass. Chess thumping bass. I have been researching these subs and really can't make a decision which one I should buy. I only have enough for 1 for now.

Of these what is the recommended sub? My room is a dedicated room enclosed. Size of room is 12&#215;22 8ft ceilings. Also I'm a car audio guy and enjoy that style of bass. I assume its mid bass I'm looking for? It would be for 90% movies.

Thanks in advance guys.
To be transparent, I am a very happy PSA customer who has taking advantage of their great trade-in program several times and I am upgrading again to the PSA TV36 iPal. While it is fun to compare performance numbers of the various products, I place a lot of value on customer service, purchase perks, etc.

I really think the TV36 Neo or iPal is what you are looking for. The JTR 2400 is a great sub, but it's design focus was on the low bass and "Chest thumping bass" typically comes from mid bass. Sub design typically involves a lot of trade-offs to achieve the design goal. The JTR 2400 is going to sacrifice some mid bass to dig deeper. The PSA V3611 was designed to be a mid bass monster and sacrifices low bass to achieve that goal. The TV36 Neo / iPal combines a lower tuning point with ultra efficient pro audio drivers and should have lots of mid bass while still being much stronger than other PSA designs in the low bass.

The reality is, all of the subs on your list are going to destroy PB2000s and you will likely be happy with any of them.
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post #17 of 33 Old 05-21-2019, 01:46 PM
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About 6 months ago I purchased a single JTR 2400ULF and have really loved the weight it brings to all bass heavy scenes, but I must admit if I were to buy a new sub today, I would definitely look very hard at the PSA TV36 ipal version. I have actually considered buying one to compare it to what I have, but I doubt it would be worth the difference and the hassle of either selling the JTR if I preferred the PSA, or to incur the costs to send the PSA back if I preferred the JTR, but then again?
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post #18 of 33 Old 05-21-2019, 05:18 PM
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I purchased a JTR 2400 (not ULF) in January. Although it is a tremendous improvement over my previous SVS SB16, and I love the sound of it, I am left wondering if I am missing some mid range punch as that is not what the 2400 was designed for. That being said, I don't want to lose much of the low end extension either. So when the TV36's were introduced, I thought I would give it a try since it most likely will have the best of both worlds - mid range punch and low end extension. As such, I have pre-ordered the ipal version. I will be keeping the 2400 until the TV36 arrives so I can test them side by side, but I'm pretty confident the TV36 will prevail.
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Originally Posted by Dave Ol View Post
I purchased a JTR 2400 (not ULF) in January. Although it is a tremendous improvement over my previous SVS SB16, and I love the sound of it, I am left wondering if I am missing some mid range punch as that is not what the 2400 was designed for. That being said, I don't want to lose much of the low end extension either. So when the TV36's were introduced, I thought I would give it a try since it most likely will have the best of both worlds - mid range punch and low end extension. As such, I have pre-ordered the ipal version. I will be keeping the 2400 until the TV36 arrives so I can test them side by side, but I'm pretty confident the TV36 will prevail.
This is exactly what I was wondering. I love the ULF but am also wondering if I am missing a large amount of mid-range punch in comparison to the TV36 ipal. I would be willing to lose a little low bass extension, but not too much. Being I am not 100% sure though, has kept me from pulling the trigger on one, and for the reasons I mentioned on my previous post. The only way to be sure is to do exactly what you have done by taking advantage of the pre-order. I applaud you and look forward to your impressions.
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post #20 of 33 Old 05-21-2019, 05:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Well I just ended up ordering the PSA TV36 IPAL thanks to you guys. I'm sure the upgrade from dual pb 2000's is going to be massive and I cant wait to feel the difference. thanks guys.

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post #21 of 33 Old 05-21-2019, 06:53 PM
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Well I just ended up ordering the PSA TV36 IPAL thanks to you guys. I'm sure the upgrade from dual pb 2000's is going to be massive and I cant wait to feel the difference. thanks guys.

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Congrats on what I am sure will be a great choice. Can't wait to hear your impressions.
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post #22 of 33 Old 05-21-2019, 09:29 PM
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This is exactly what I was wondering. I love the ULF but am also wondering if I am missing a large amount of mid-range punch in comparison to the TV36 ipal. I would be willing to lose a little low bass extension, but not too much. Being I am not 100% sure though, has kept me from pulling the trigger on one, and for the reasons I mentioned on my previous post. The only way to be sure is to do exactly what you have done by taking advantage of the pre-order. I applaud you and look forward to your impressions.

I'll be sure to post my impressions in the PSA thread once it arrives and I have a chance to compare the two.
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post #23 of 33 Old 05-21-2019, 09:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cagerone View Post
Well I just ended up ordering the PSA TV36 IPAL thanks to you guys. I'm sure the upgrade from dual pb 2000's is going to be massive and I cant wait to feel the difference. thanks guys.

I think you'll be happy with your choice.
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post #24 of 33 Old 05-22-2019, 07:47 AM
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What size drivers are the new PSA IPal subs?

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post #25 of 33 Old 05-22-2019, 08:04 AM
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post #26 of 33 Old 05-22-2019, 08:20 AM
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If he used the 21 inch he could have a Cap4000 beater. The dual 18 may equal the Cap4000 if it has the same x-max as the 21.

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post #27 of 33 Old 05-22-2019, 09:09 AM
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post #28 of 33 Old 05-22-2019, 10:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post
If he used the 21 inch he could have a Cap4000 beater. The dual 18 may equal the Cap4000 if it has the same x-max as the 21.
Significantly smaller box size, about 40% the amp power, and much less excursion means it wouldn't make sense to expect it to match the Cap4000. Comparison to a Cap2400ULF with slightly higher tuning frequency and more efficiency above 40-50Hz is probably a a more realistic expectation, which is what many of the guys here have suggested. Of course the Cap driver still has more useful displacement than a pair of the non-IPAL drivers for the wide frequency range where that sets the limit.
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post #29 of 33 Old 05-22-2019, 10:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post
Significantly smaller box size, about 40% the amp power, and much less excursion means it wouldn't make sense to expect it to match the Cap4000. Comparison to a Cap2400ULF with slightly higher tuning frequency and more efficiency above 40-50Hz is probably a a more realistic expectation, which is what many of the guys here have suggested. Of course the Cap driver still has more useful displacement than a pair of the non-IPAL drivers for the wide frequency range where that sets the limit.
Where does driver sensitivity come into play? Just in reaching a given excursion with less amp power?
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post #30 of 33 Old 05-22-2019, 10:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post
Significantly smaller box size, about 40% the amp power, and much less excursion means it wouldn't make sense to expect it to match the Cap4000. Comparison to a Cap2400ULF with slightly higher tuning frequency and more efficiency above 40-50Hz is probably a a more realistic expectation, which is what many of the guys here have suggested. Of course the Cap driver still has more useful displacement than a pair of the non-IPAL drivers for the wide frequency range where that sets the limit.
Do you think two of the ipals would contend with cap 4k from 12.5 hz to 30 hz? I know above that, the ipal should hold its own one vs one
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