What would match an SVS PB12-NSD? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 15 Old 05-16-2019, 01:46 PM - Thread Starter
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What would match an SVS PB12-NSD?

For a few years, I've ran just one SVS PB12-NSD. It sounded fine. I've since upgraded my room with a bigger screen, etc. I had to move my PB12-NSD from my front left corner to the area between my left and center speaker. I have also added a 16-46 CS Plus. Per Ed Mullen, the 16-46 CS Plus would work with the PB12-NSD. Since I have a Denon X3400H receiver with dual LFE outputs, I wanted to take advantage of that since I had the 16-46 CS in another room I could use.

I'm not happy with my LFE at all. Maybe adding the 16-46 CS Plus along with the PB12-NSD doesn't match so well. I probably should run Audyssey with just the PB12 and then again just with the 16-46 CS Plus to to hear the difference. The Cylinder Sub is so much harder to place due to size, so it's on the right side wall.

I don't think I've seen the PB12-NSD for sale on SVS any longer, but if I wanted to add another sub up front, between the center and right speaker, what would be a better match?

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post #2 of 15 Old 05-16-2019, 02:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tonybradley View Post
For a few years, I've ran just one SVS PB12-NSD. It sounded fine. I've since upgraded my room with a bigger screen, etc. I had to move my PB12-NSD from my front left corner to the area between my left and center speaker. I have also added a 16-46 CS Plus. Per Ed Mullen, the 16-46 CS Plus would work with the PB12-NSD. Since I have a Denon X3400H receiver with dual LFE outputs, I wanted to take advantage of that since I had the 16-46 CS in another room I could use.

I'm not happy with my LFE at all. Maybe adding the 16-46 CS Plus along with the PB12-NSD doesn't match so well. I probably should run Audyssey with just the PB12 and then again just with the 16-46 CS Plus to to hear the difference. The Cylinder Sub is so much harder to place due to size, so it's on the right side wall.

I don't think I've seen the PB12-NSD for sale on SVS any longer, but if I wanted to add another sub up front, between the center and right speaker, what would be a better match?
Well, they were made available again this past December so might be available again this coming December.
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post #3 of 15 Old 05-16-2019, 02:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Well, they were made available again this past December so might be available again this coming December.
Interesting. Any idea the reasoning they made them available again for a short time?

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post #4 of 15 Old 05-16-2019, 02:11 PM
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Originally Posted by tonybradley View Post
Interesting. Any idea the reasoning they made them available again for a short time?
For the last several Black Fridays the SB12s have been made again despite being a "discontinued" subwoofer.

But this past Black Friday both the SB12 and PB12 were made available and IIRC the PB12 was $400.

So a holiday "loss leader" perhaps???

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post #5 of 15 Old 05-16-2019, 02:58 PM
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Yep. As recently as Feb of this year, and lately expanding the resellers who have them at even lower prices.

I'd hold off, if you can stand it. The PB12 looks like one of the best performance values this side of monolith sales, since you already have one I'd be going multiples of those.
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post #6 of 15 Old 05-16-2019, 03:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tonybradley View Post
For a few years, I've ran just one SVS PB12-NSD. It sounded fine. I've since upgraded my room with a bigger screen, etc. I had to move my PB12-NSD from my front left corner to the area between my left and center speaker. I have also added a 16-46 CS Plus. Per Ed Mullen, the 16-46 CS Plus would work with the PB12-NSD. Since I have a Denon X3400H receiver with dual LFE outputs, I wanted to take advantage of that since I had the 16-46 CS in another room I could use.

I'm not happy with my LFE at all. Maybe adding the 16-46 CS Plus along with the PB12-NSD doesn't match so well. I probably should run Audyssey with just the PB12 and then again just with the 16-46 CS Plus to to hear the difference. The Cylinder Sub is so much harder to place due to size, so it's on the right side wall.

I don't think I've seen the PB12-NSD for sale on SVS any longer, but if I wanted to add another sub up front, between the center and right speaker, what would be a better match?


I'd be inclined to think your problem is less the sub pairing and more about moving your sub(s) from a more optimal to a less optimal position. I wouldn't give up on your pair just yet.


I can tell you that in my room mid wall (or near it) on both front and sides are "black holes" for bass when the driver faces into the room. Try the sub crawl method and see if you can find any better placement alternatives, or even try facing the PB driver in another direction in its current location.


Your idea of running Audyssey with the PB12 alone in it's new spot is a good idea - you can compare output against what you were getting before. If it doesn't match up, you have a starting point to dig into things.
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post #7 of 15 Old 05-16-2019, 06:47 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Leon! View Post
Yep. As recently as Feb of this year, and lately expanding the resellers who have them at even lower prices.

I'd hold off, if you can stand it. The PB12 looks like one of the best performance values this side of monolith sales, since you already have one I'd be going multiples of those.
Yeah, if around $400, that's ridiculous. I purchased mine B-Stock around 2009 for more than that. I'll keep my eye out for when/if SVS adds them back to their site at some point.

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post #8 of 15 Old 05-16-2019, 06:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by dpc716 View Post
I'd be inclined to think your problem is less the sub pairing and more about moving your sub(s) from a more optimal to a less optimal position. I wouldn't give up on your pair just yet.


I can tell you that in my room mid wall (or near it) on both front and sides are "black holes" for bass when the driver faces into the room. Try the sub crawl method and see if you can find any better placement alternatives, or even try facing the PB driver in another direction in its current location.


Your idea of running Audyssey with the PB12 alone in it's new spot is a good idea - you can compare output against what you were getting before. If it doesn't match up, you have a starting point to dig into things.
Back around 2009, I downloaded an Excel File with Correction Values built into their equations from HomeTheaterShack for the Radio Shack SPL meter that SVS used to provide with a purchase of their Subs. I also downloaded Frequency files from 10Hz to 100Hz from the same site. I then tried my Sub in a few different places and entered the dB for each frequency recorded on my SPL meter into that Spreadsheet. It then plot a curve so you could see the Peaks and Dips. That is how I learned that the front left corner had the flattest curve in my room. I was going to use REW with the SPL Meter and the loop back with the sound card but never got around to it. I see now it's much easier with a USB Mic as there isn't much calibration to do, mainly plug and play it appears. But, that's almost $100.

Has anyone here used that old HomeTheaterShack Spreadsheet with correction values for the old Radio Shack SPL meter and know if it's close enough to use to find the best subwoofer location? Although it takes a little longer than REW, it's much cheaper given I have the SPL meter and the Spreadsheet.

Also, with the Subwoofer Crawl, I know how to do that with one sub. Easy enough. However, how do you do that with two subwoofers?

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post #9 of 15 Old 05-16-2019, 11:22 PM
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Honestly, $100 for the umik-1 (plus the free REW download) will be the best VFM you ever get when trying to setup your home theater, especially when trying to integrate 2 or more subs.

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TV: Panasonic P65ST60 AVR: Denon 4311ci Speakers: PSA MTM-210C (Centre), PSA MTM-210 (Left & Right), PSA MT-110 (Surrounds) Subwoofers: Dual Seaton SubMersives
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post #10 of 15 Old 05-16-2019, 11:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gajCA View Post
For the last several Black Fridays the SB12s have been made again despite being a "discontinued" subwoofer.

But this past Black Friday both the SB12 and PB12 were made available and IIRC the PB12 was $400.

So a holiday "loss leader" perhaps???
My guess is that it's not actually a loss leader, but just not as large a margin as their other subwoofers. All the design etc has long been paid for, so I think they very simply make a run of the SB and PB each year at the time of year it's going to sell best, make some money, and hope that people will like it enough to upgrade to one of their more expensive ones. One large run a year, some profit, several small runs a year, no profit. YMMV of course. I've moved on to bigger and better, but I have no problem recommending the SB12-NSD for a small sealed room. Sounded great to me, I just wanted more SPL than they could provide, and I think my room is a little too big for a small sealed subwoofer. or 4 of them, as I ended up with before going with my current Rythmiks. Even my Rythmiks aren't quite enough, at some point, I plan on doubling up on them, but finances.

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post #11 of 15 Old 05-17-2019, 04:55 AM
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Originally Posted by tonybradley View Post

Also, with the Subwoofer Crawl, I know how to do that with one sub. Easy enough. However, how do you do that with two subwoofers?
It's the same process. Ideally you want to find spots that compliment each other. If your trying to optimize one seat, use one seat. If across a seating area, you can use two representative locations. My room is a family room (not a dedicated theater) with seating along the back wall. I found front corner placement resulted in peaky output in the opposite back corner, but two subs in each front corner resulted in fairly even output across the whole seating area. When I tried moving them away from the corners (nearer the TV in the middle of the front wall) the bass just disappeared. There was a lot of trial and error involved in the process.

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post #12 of 15 Old 05-17-2019, 06:44 AM
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Originally Posted by tonybradley View Post
Yeah, if around $400, that's ridiculous. I purchased mine B-Stock around 2009 for more than that. I'll keep my eye out for when/if SVS adds them back to their site at some point.

Almost, PB12 was $440 at Rakuten last time, SB12 as low as $350!

Ofc SVS "bill of rights" limited through 3rd party.
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post #13 of 15 Old 05-17-2019, 08:27 AM
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Originally Posted by tonybradley View Post
Yeah, if around $400, that's ridiculous. I purchased mine B-Stock around 2009 for more than that. I'll keep my eye out for when/if SVS adds them back to their site at some point.
There is a "wild card" this year of course and that is the Tariff nonsense which could affect availability or pricing.

Geoff A. J., California
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post #14 of 15 Old Today, 04:18 AM - Thread Starter
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I've not been around for a few days due to my lousy Cable Internet Provider and issues they are having.

I found out my friend owns the Dayton Audio UMM-6 Mic that he was using to calibrate his car stereo system as he competes. I watched an Audioholics Youtube video on REW and he used that mic. I was able to borrow it, download the Calibration File and install REW. From what I've seen online, the UMIK-1 has two calibration files, with one being for 90 degrees. The UMM-6 only had one.

My Cylinder Sub location is really the only place it can go, so I left it there and moved the PB12 between L/C and then R/C. I took measurements with just that sub and with the Cylinder. I turned the PB12 so the speaker and port faced the room, faced front wall, faced left, faced right, pulled it further out from wall and closer to the wall. No matter what I did, I had a HUGE Null at around 65Hz up to 100Hz.

I then played around with the phase of one sub, little at a time. I found that I was able to get a "better" response for the 65-100Hz, but doesn't look great, but I have a small dip from 30-40Hz now. Subs are set 180 degrees out of phase now. After about 2 hours, I was a little tired of measuring. But wow.....this makes it so easy to see where the problems area.

I've attached the graph of the best graph I was able to obtain last night. I still have the option of placing the cylinder on my riser in the back, but it's filled with insulation and now sound.....so not sure that will be a good idea. I still plan to try.
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post #15 of 15 Old Today, 06:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tonybradley View Post
I've not been around for a few days due to my lousy Cable Internet Provider and issues they are having.

I found out my friend owns the Dayton Audio UMM-6 Mic that he was using to calibrate his car stereo system as he competes. I watched an Audioholics Youtube video on REW and he used that mic. I was able to borrow it, download the Calibration File and install REW. From what I've seen online, the UMIK-1 has two calibration files, with one being for 90 degrees. The UMM-6 only had one.

My Cylinder Sub location is really the only place it can go, so I left it there and moved the PB12 between L/C and then R/C. I took measurements with just that sub and with the Cylinder. I turned the PB12 so the speaker and port faced the room, faced front wall, faced left, faced right, pulled it further out from wall and closer to the wall. No matter what I did, I had a HUGE Null at around 65Hz up to 100Hz.

I then played around with the phase of one sub, little at a time. I found that I was able to get a "better" response for the 65-100Hz, but doesn't look great, but I have a small dip from 30-40Hz now. Subs are set 180 degrees out of phase now. After about 2 hours, I was a little tired of measuring. But wow.....this makes it so easy to see where the problems area.

I've attached the graph of the best graph I was able to obtain last night. I still have the option of placing the cylinder on my riser in the back, but it's filled with insulation and now sound.....so not sure that will be a good idea. I still plan to try.

Sounds like your on the right track. You can also try adjusting the distance settings, try increasing one or both and see if it helps.
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