Hsu vs SVS vs RSL vs Monolith vs Rythmik - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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Old 05-17-2019, 06:22 AM - Thread Starter
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Been reading a lot over the past few days and I'm no closer to a decision. I've received solid advice on another thread but I'd like to narrow down the discussion.

Background: had a DEQ-15R that gave up the ghost. I was happy with it except for room modes at 40-50hz. I'm not interested in repairing the Velo, so I'm looking for duals now in the +- $1000 range, which puts several subs within striking distance:

Monolith THX 10
SVS PB1000
Hsu VTF-1F
Rythmik L12
RSL Speedwoofer 10s

Size is a factor, i.e. the Hsu is pushing it. Some other considerations:

Room: 3500ft^3 (30x15x8), 3 windows, one slider, one hall opening, carpeted, two full size couches in an L shape, lots of reflection points, no option for traps.
Placement: Front LR only
MLP distance: 13ft
Speakers: Paradigm Mini Monitors, CC-190, ADP-190
AVR: Marantz 6012
Content: 95% Movies (action)
Size limitation: 20" depth total. Height and width reasonable.
Listening level: -10 to -5 from Reference

I have no experience with any of these brands. The Velo was very good, to me, and the best I've owned so far, for a 9 year old sub.

I had an integrator come out to listen and he said I've got room modes and no impact with the single Velo. I guess I didn't know what I didn't know. He recommended dual PB1000's or PB2000's if I could stomach it. I called SVS and they said the same.

I'm leaning towards the PB1000 route for the mere fact that within 1 year I can upgrade, which is nice flexibility to have.

I've read reviews, looked at graphs, read comments, and still have no idea.

Last edited by z3roz; 05-17-2019 at 07:31 AM.
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Old 05-17-2019, 07:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by z3roz View Post
Been reading a lot over the past few days and I'm no closer to a decision. I've received solid advice on another thread but I'd like to narrow down the discussion.

Background: had a DEQ-15R that gave up the ghost. I was happy with it except for room modes at 40-50hz. I'm not interested in repairing the Velo, so I'm looking for duals now in the +- $1000 range, which puts several subs within striking distance:

Monolith THX 10
SVS PB1000
Hsu VTF-1F
Rythmik L12
RSL Speedwoofer 10s

Size is a factor, i.e. the Hsu is pushing it. Some other considerations:

Room: 3500ft^3 (30x15x8), 3 windows, one slider, one hall opening, carpeted, two full size couches in an L shape, lots of reflection points, no option for traps.
Placement: Front LR only
MLP distance: 13ft
Speakers: Paradigm Mini Monitors, CC-190, ADP-190
AVR: Marantz 6012
Content: 95% Movies (action)
Size limitation: 20" depth total. Height and width reasonable.
Listening level: -10 to -5 to Reference

I have no experience with any of these brands. The Velo was very good, to me, and the best I've owned so far, for a 9 year old sub.

I had an integrator come out to listen and he said I've got room modes and no impact with the single Velo. I guess I didn't know what I didn't know. He recommended dual PB1000's or PB2000's if I could stomach it. I called SVS and they said the same.

I'm leaning towards the PB1000 route for the mere fact that within 1 year I can upgrade, which is nice flexibility to have.

I've read reviews, looked at graphs, read comments, and still have no idea.
You have a fairly large space. For reasonable impact for primarily movie use you ideally will need more powerful subs than your current choices but totally understand everyone has budget and space constrains. Of the subs listed the monolith may have the performance edge. Not sure which Rythmik you mean but if the sealed L12 I would skip that for your needs. The RSL and VTF-1 don't have as good low end extension as the PB-1000 or Monolith 10 so would move those lower on the list for movie use. That being said if you already know that upgrading will be an option down the road then SVS makes that easy as you said so going dual PB-1000s is reasonable. Most box ported subs more powerful than what you are considering exceed your depth restriction. If you can stretch the budget you may want to consider dual SVS PC-2000 which will be tall but only has a 16" diameter and same performance as the PB-2000. For that sized room that level of sub would be a much better starting point.
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Old 05-17-2019, 07:10 AM
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I like the SVS PC-2000. Get duals for that large space.
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Old 05-17-2019, 07:22 AM - Thread Starter
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The PC 2000 will never pass the WAF. I can push depth to 24" if needed, I just don't want two mini-fridges in the living room, i.e. two DEQ-15R's would have been a no go, and the single one was already huge and raised an eyebrow accompanied by a look of dissatisfaction.
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Old 05-17-2019, 07:29 AM - Thread Starter
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You have a fairly large space. For reasonable impact for primarily movie use you ideally will need more powerful subs than your current choices but totally understand everyone has budget and space constrains. Of the subs listed the monolith may have the performance edge. Not sure which Rythmik you mean but if the sealed L12 I would skip that for your needs. The RSL and VTF-1 don't have as good low end extension as the PB-1000 or Monolith 10 so would move those lower on the list for movie use. That being said if you already know that upgrading will be an option down the road then SVS makes that easy as you said so going dual PB-1000s is reasonable. Most box ported subs more powerful than what you are considering exceed your depth restriction. If you can stretch the budget you may want to consider dual SVS PC-2000 which will be tall but only has a 16" diameter and same performance as the PB-2000. For that sized room that level of sub would be a much better starting point.
So the Monolith or the SVS. I should mention that the Velo 15 was plenty of bass, just not flat or impactful. I'm assiming the room size played a factor there. I was thinking either buy a single PB2000 now and another one later, or just go dual pb1000 now. SVS said it would be better to go duals and then upgrade to 2000's later. I've been told that 2 pb1000's would destroy the single velo, so I would be happy with that. My Velo had no usable output below 28hz, a peak at 38hz, and a sharp drop from 40-50hz. I imagine a single PB2000 wouldn't remedy the null, so I would need two for that.
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Old 05-17-2019, 07:31 AM
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The PC's base is only 16 1/2" in dia. Anyway I 3rd the suggestion of needing much more, than your initial ideas, in that size space open to other spaces no less.


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Originally Posted by z3roz View Post
The PC 2000 will never pass the WAF. I can push depth to 24" if needed, I just don't want two mini-fridges in the living room, i.e. two DEQ-15R's would have been a no go, and the single one was already huge and raised an eyebrow accompanied by a look of dissatisfaction.
Okay, dual monolith 12's, 23" x 17' x 24".
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Old 05-17-2019, 07:39 AM - Thread Starter
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That puts me in a different price category, i.e. would open up other options. Even open box monolith 12's are >$1300/pair. It was a stretch to get approval for $1k tbh.
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Old 05-17-2019, 07:43 AM - Thread Starter
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Regarding the space size, the velo filled it nicely and was impressive. It had a 750/1500 amp. So is it a stretch to think that duals, even entry, wouldn't be enough to at least match the Velo or exceed it? My wife doesn't understand why I just won't pay the $200 to fix it. Lack of service, no support, and reliability concerns not withstanding, it's old and tired, and it nearly burned the house down, so there's that.
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Old 05-17-2019, 07:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by z3roz View Post
The PC 2000 will never pass the WAF. I can push depth to 24" if needed, I just don't want two mini-fridges in the living room, i.e. two DEQ-15R's would have been a no go, and the single one was already huge and raised an eyebrow accompanied by a look of dissatisfaction.
If you are sticking with ~$1000 budget right now but willing to upgrade to PB-2000 later then dual PB-1000s now makes the most sense to avoid the hassle of having to sell subs on your own. If you are contemplating spending dual PB-2000 money upfront that opens you up to other better bang for the buck options.

Dual Hsu VTF-2 MK5 which comes close to PB2K performance for not much more than current budget
Dual Hsu VTF-3 MK5 which is a little more than dual PB2k but a significant step up and probably best bang for the buck out there
Dual Monolith 12" outperforms PB2K for same price

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Old 05-17-2019, 07:46 AM
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If budget is a concern, hold off until one of the mono 20% off sales apply to their subs, would keep you under $1,300/pair.
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Old 05-17-2019, 08:16 AM - Thread Starter
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If budget is a concern, hold off until one of the mono 20% off sales apply to their subs, would keep you under $1,300/pair.
I was just thinking that, although dual monolith 12's sounds better and better, especially at $679/ea open box. I can wait for two at $1280 though for sure.
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Old 05-17-2019, 01:50 PM
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I was just thinking that, although dual monolith 12's sounds better and better, especially at $679/ea open box. I can wait for two at $1280 though for sure.
Another thread mentions that open box subs do not have the 5 year warranty. I think it was only 30 days. Might want to look into that before committing.

If you're willing to spend that much you should look at the HSU VTF2.5. Overall performance is quite close to the mono and SVS 12 inchers. Just over $600 shipped.

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Old 05-17-2019, 02:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by z3roz View Post
Been reading a lot over the past few days and I'm no closer to a decision. I've received solid advice on another thread but I'd like to narrow down the discussion.

Background: had a DEQ-15R that gave up the ghost. I was happy with it except for room modes at 40-50hz. I'm not interested in repairing the Velo, so I'm looking for duals now in the +- $1000 range, which puts several subs within striking distance:

Monolith THX 10
SVS PB1000
Hsu VTF-1F
Rythmik L12
RSL Speedwoofer 10s

Size is a factor, i.e. the Hsu is pushing it. Some other considerations:

Room: 3500ft^3 (30x15x8), 3 windows, one slider, one hall opening, carpeted, two full size couches in an L shape, lots of reflection points, no option for traps.
Placement: Front LR only
MLP distance: 13ft
Speakers: Paradigm Mini Monitors, CC-190, ADP-190
AVR: Marantz 6012
Content: 95% Movies (action)
Size limitation: 20" depth total. Height and width reasonable.
Listening level: -10 to -5 from Reference

I have no experience with any of these brands. The Velo was very good, to me, and the best I've owned so far, for a 9 year old sub.

I had an integrator come out to listen and he said I've got room modes and no impact with the single Velo. I guess I didn't know what I didn't know. He recommended dual PB1000's or PB2000's if I could stomach it. I called SVS and they said the same.

I'm leaning towards the PB1000 route for the mere fact that within 1 year I can upgrade, which is nice flexibility to have.

I've read reviews, looked at graphs, read comments, and still have no idea.
Replace the L12 with an LV12F from Rythmik. That size room, you will need the additional output it provides. If you can't swing the additional cost, then you might settle for the Monolith, or save even more by going with the Speedwoofer (best option for WAF, as it is significantly smaller than the others). The HSU VTF2mk5 would be a good choice, but 2" deeper than you want.

It's a VIRTUAL channel unless stated otherwise.

Last edited by RayGuy; 05-17-2019 at 02:15 PM.
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Old 05-17-2019, 02:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Kini62 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by z3roz View Post
I was just thinking that, although dual monolith 12's sounds better and better, especially at $679/ea open box. I can wait for two at $1280 though for sure.
Another thread mentions that open box subs do not have the 5 year warranty. I think it was only 30 days. Might want to look into that before committing.

If you're willing to spend that much you should look at the HSU VTF2.5. Overall performance is quite close to the mono and SVS 12 inchers. Just over $600 shipped.
Open box Monoliths have the 5 year warranty.
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Old 05-17-2019, 03:20 PM - Thread Starter
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So we're back to recommending everything. I'm willing to up the budget to $1300 for duals out-the-door, or buy one now and another later. Reviews are good for all of these brands, although everywhere I look says the RSL 10s is better for music.

This is such a subjective hobby. I feel like at this point twin 10's will still be better than an old, tired Velo 15, so anything above that is gravy. The mono 10's are out because of the lack of midbass, which I need. The size of the RSL and Mono 10 are appealing. The HSU's are huge.
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Old 05-17-2019, 08:46 PM
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So we're back to recommending everything. I'm willing to up the budget to $1300 for duals out-the-door, or buy one now and another later. Reviews are good for all of these brands, although everywhere I look says the RSL 10s is better for music.

This is such a subjective hobby. I feel like at this point twin 10's will still be better than an old, tired Velo 15, so anything above that is gravy. The mono 10's are out because of the lack of midbass, which I need. The size of the RSL and Mono 10 are appealing. The HSU's are huge.
If the Mono 10 is out, then it's down to the RSL, unless you are willing to entertain the larger Rythmik. One positive re the RSL, free returns if not satisfied. The SB2000 is an option, but $1400 is a hefty price tag for the pair. The PB2000 is too deep, so it is not an upgrade option.
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It's a VIRTUAL channel unless stated otherwise.

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Old 05-17-2019, 09:03 PM
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^^^^^

I’ve had both the rsl and pb-1000. My advise is that for primarily movie usage you are better off with the pb-1000. The deeper extension was noticeable. Given your uncertainty going the SVS route takes some pressure off with the easy free returns and 1 year trade up.
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Old 05-17-2019, 09:05 PM
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Dont get two rn. Get the biggest one, you can get now.

Sit, chill, wait, plot & plan... you'll have two of those MF'ers before your WAF knows it.

GLHF.
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Old 05-17-2019, 10:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Dont get two rn. Get the biggest one, you can get now.

Sit, chill, wait, plot & plan... you'll have two of those MF'ers before your WAF knows it.

GLHF.
Honestly I think I'm gonna go single monolith 12 and upgrade to two later. The reviews are just too good.
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Old 05-17-2019, 10:38 PM
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Given your needs a pair of pb-2000s or a pair of the Rythmik LV12 look like your best choice. I know the velodyne seemed like enough power, but as you step up, you will quickly discover that it wasn’t (and this is coming from a guy that watches 2 movies a year, and uses his system primarily for music with large magnepans). When I went from my Velodyne HGS-12 to a Rythmik 15, I was floored. A year later, I want a second (keeping in mind, my room is 6000 cubic feet with openings putting it at about 9000 cubic feet).

Given your room suckout at 40-50 hz, using two subs placed correctly will make a big difference. They will not cure it, but will greatly lessen it and give more consistant bass throughout. If the price ceiling is a hard $1000, I would get the svs pb-1000 pair so you have the upgrade option in one year if you find you want it and funds allow.
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Old 05-17-2019, 11:19 PM
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Honestly I think I'm gonna go single monolith 12 and upgrade to two later. The reviews are just too good.
So, the Mono 12s HAVE midbass, unlike the 10s?

Will one sub cure the suckout problem? Probably not.

I think you need to take a step back ... and think it through.


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Old 05-18-2019, 06:40 AM - Thread Starter
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Well from what I've read and seen in reviews the 12 has midbass (stronger) than the 10. I mean asthetically I'd rather do dual 10's.

You're right, a single won't cure the null. The best solution would be to buy one of each and try them all, then pair the best one, and I would do that if the funds allowed. For now I have advice and reviews to go off of.

Your GIF is exactly how I feel. The wife gave the 'get whatever you want, idc' comment so I was set on twin mono's. There's always that "what if" question looming though. As long as it's better than my Velo, I'll be satisfied.

Last edited by z3roz; 05-18-2019 at 06:53 AM.
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Old 05-18-2019, 06:50 AM - Thread Starter
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Given your needs a pair of pb-2000s or a pair of the Rythmik LV12 look like your best choice. I know the velodyne seemed like enough power, but as you step up, you will quickly discover that it wasn’t (and this is coming from a guy that watches 2 movies a year, and uses his system primarily for music with large magnepans). When I went from my Velodyne HGS-12 to a Rythmik 15, I was floored. A year later, I want a second (keeping in mind, my room is 6000 cubic feet with openings putting it at about 9000 cubic feet).

Given your room suckout at 40-50 hz, using two subs placed correctly will make a big difference. They will not cure it, but will greatly lessen it and give more consistant bass throughout. If the price ceiling is a hard $1000, I would get the svs pb-1000 pair so you have the upgrade option in one year if you find you want it and funds allow.
I don't disagree, but when considering a pair of PB2000 or the Rythmiks, the increase in budget enables more selection. I can drive 1 hour south and hear a PB2000 or a PB1000, so I may do that. All the reading I've done here and at HTR, Audioholics, etc. just make it more confusing. 'This is better than that', 'This goes lower than those,' and then 50 comments to discredit/disagree with those comments, then 15 different other suggestions. It's like the wild west. LoL.

So back to what sub to get. If you say PB2000 or LV12F, then Mono's have to also be considered. I understand what you're saying about the Velo. I thought it was amazing because before that I'd been listening to an LG soundbar for 2 years and before that I had two low-end Dayton 12's, so the Velo was very much better. The room null started this journey and then the Velo burning up sealed the deal.
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Old 05-18-2019, 10:28 AM
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I don't disagree, but when considering a pair of PB2000 or the Rythmiks, the increase in budget enables more selection. I can drive 1 hour south and hear a PB2000 or a PB1000, so I may do that. All the reading I've done here and at HTR, Audioholics, etc. just make it more confusing. 'This is better than that', 'This goes lower than those,' and then 50 comments to discredit/disagree with those comments, then 15 different other suggestions. It's like the wild west. LoL.

So back to what sub to get. If you say PB2000 or LV12F, then Mono's have to also be considered. I understand what you're saying about the Velo. I thought it was amazing because before that I'd been listening to an LG soundbar for 2 years and before that I had two low-end Dayton 12's, so the Velo was very much better. The room null started this journey and then the Velo burning up sealed the deal.
Keep in mind, that the market has many great choices and setup and the room are really the largest factors. Within the choices you are considering, ALL are excellent. Pick a brand, buy it, enjoy it, and tell everyone yours is the best because you like it. The reality is that very few have heard these subs back to back in a controlled environment. Fortunately, measurements actually do predict subwoofer performance well.

I like my Rythmiks, but replace them with HSUs or SVS and I would be just as happy.
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Old 05-18-2019, 10:36 AM
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Been reading a lot over the past few days and I'm no closer to a decision. I've received solid advice on another thread but I'd like to narrow down the discussion.

Background: had a DEQ-15R that gave up the ghost. I was happy with it except for room modes at 40-50hz. I'm not interested in repairing the Velo, so I'm looking for duals now in the +- $1000 range, which puts several subs within striking distance:

Monolith THX 10
SVS PB1000
Hsu VTF-1F
Rythmik L12
RSL Speedwoofer 10s

Size is a factor, i.e. the Hsu is pushing it. Some other considerations:

Room: 3500ft^3 (30x15x8), 3 windows, one slider, one hall opening, carpeted, two full size couches in an L shape, lots of reflection points, no option for traps.
Placement: Front LR only
MLP distance: 13ft
Speakers: Paradigm Mini Monitors, CC-190, ADP-190
AVR: Marantz 6012
Content: 95% Movies (action)
Size limitation: 20" depth total. Height and width reasonable.
Listening level: -10 to -5 from Reference

I have no experience with any of these brands. The Velo was very good, to me, and the best I've owned so far, for a 9 year old sub.

I had an integrator come out to listen and he said I've got room modes and no impact with the single Velo. I guess I didn't know what I didn't know. He recommended dual PB1000's or PB2000's if I could stomach it. I called SVS and they said the same.

I'm leaning towards the PB1000 route for the mere fact that within 1 year I can upgrade, which is nice flexibility to have.

I've read reviews, looked at graphs, read comments, and still have no idea.
Big question - are you able to put it directly behind the couch? If so - go the biggest one you can afford. Directly behind the main listening position is called 'nearfield' - and for movies it's incredible.


Background: Had duals for the LONGEST time trying to smooth out room nulls. I have a measurement mic and an amp with the top room correction software, and spent hours and hours trying to find the best positioning. While it was somewhat fun to spend hours on tweaking, when I switched to one large sub due to space and money constraints and put it behind my couch it was UNREAL the difference with movies. If you like low extension and feeling thundering bass coursing through you, I can't recommend this enough. Go BIG and put it behind your couch if you can!

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Old 05-18-2019, 10:48 AM
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Been reading a lot over the past few days and I'm no closer to a decision. I've received solid advice on another thread but I'd like to narrow down the discussion.

Background: had a DEQ-15R that gave up the ghost. I was happy with it except for room modes at 40-50hz. I'm not interested in repairing the Velo, so I'm looking for duals now in the +- $1000 range, which puts several subs within striking distance:

Monolith THX 10
SVS PB1000
Hsu VTF-1F
Rythmik L12
RSL Speedwoofer 10s

Size is a factor, i.e. the Hsu is pushing it. Some other considerations:

Room: 3500ft^3 (30x15x8), 3 windows, one slider, one hall opening, carpeted, two full size couches in an L shape, lots of reflection points, no option for traps.
Placement: Front LR only
MLP distance: 13ft
Speakers: Paradigm Mini Monitors, CC-190, ADP-190
AVR: Marantz 6012
Content: 95% Movies (action)
Size limitation: 20" depth total. Height and width reasonable.
Listening level: -10 to -5 from Reference

I have no experience with any of these brands. The Velo was very good, to me, and the best I've owned so far, for a 9 year old sub.

I had an integrator come out to listen and he said I've got room modes and no impact with the single Velo. I guess I didn't know what I didn't know. He recommended dual PB1000's or PB2000's if I could stomach it. I called SVS and they said the same.

I'm leaning towards the PB1000 route for the mere fact that within 1 year I can upgrade, which is nice flexibility to have.

I've read reviews, looked at graphs, read comments, and still have no idea.
When my Velodyne DD15 dies for sure I'll be replacing it with dual 12" Rhythmiks.

Geoff A. J., California
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Old 05-18-2019, 10:56 AM
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when my velodyne dd15 dies for sure i'll be replacing it with dual 12" rhythmiks.
l22 or f12 x2 which ones?
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Old 05-18-2019, 11:30 AM
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l22 or f12 x2 which ones?
Two sealed F12s or L12s.

My sealed DD15 in my current space is barely loafing so, in actuality, overkill for my needs.

Geoff A. J., California

Last edited by gajCA; 05-18-2019 at 11:33 AM.
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Old 05-18-2019, 11:34 AM
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Two sealed F12s or L12s.

My sealed DD15 in my current space is barely loafing so, in actuality, overkill for my needs.
Thanks
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Old 05-18-2019, 12:02 PM
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All the reading I've done here and at HTR, Audioholics, etc. just make it more confusing. 'This is better than that', 'This goes lower than those,' and then 50 comments to discredit/disagree with those comments, then 15 different other suggestions. It's like the wild west. LoL.

.

Yeah. There's honks for every manufacture, who will only tout their strengths, and minimize its weaknesses.

It won't matter which brand, so long as you err on the side of too much sub, you'll get as much of all of the above as you want. You only have to buy them once, have to live with the bass or lack thereof every day after. Splurge, or half splurge overspend on one then later the other. Worst case scenario would be two 10's trying to maximize the value point, then not being enoug.
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