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post #1 of 16 Old 05-22-2019, 07:55 AM - Thread Starter
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Compact sub quandary

I know with subwoofers you can “pick two” when it comes to small size, low price and capability, not all three. For this reason small, capable, relatively inexpensive subs fascinate me! Plus I no longer care to look at big ol boxes (or cylinders) in my living room. I now prefer my speakers to have a less obtrusive look. I went with some very good sounding LCR in-walls for this reason. And no, I can’t make the subs look like end tables, etc as the only “good” spots I’ve found in my room aren’t places I’d want tables. In fact, I do not mind looking at tiny/subs that perform well as the design skill/physics required intrigue me. Bigger subs actually bore me. Lol. Yeah it’s big. It’s loud. It’s deep. It’s should be. Lol. I guess it’s like comparing a tiny Formula 1 engine to a Top Fuel drag racing monster engine. Anyway,
I currently have a pair of jamo J-110's that play down to 25hz but fall off the cliff below that. I got them super cheap on a close out deal a couple years ago (about 1/3 retail).Their Klipsch-clone (R-110) is relatively inexpensive on amazon and won't last long as the new version (SPL-100) is out now at a more expensive price.
I'm curious how much "better" the tiny SVS Sb-2000 would be (outlet priced) to what I have now, but yet the slightly bigger (but same size as my Jamo's) RSL Speedwoofer 10s (2/3 of sb-2000 price) measures almost IDENTICAL to the SVS according to Brent Butterworth (a well known/respected professional audio reviewer).
I know I can return the SVS's for free, but I returned a pair of underwhelming SB12-NSD's to SVS a few years ago. Don't wanna have to do that again. The underwhelming performance could've been somewhat psychological. I expected more from an "SVS" sub. Also, they probably weren't placed well as I hadn't started to play with room EQ wizard yet. And now, looking at the old review, the SB12-NSD's CEA-2010 measurements don't look that much worse than the current SB-2000! Maybe a dB or two. All the sub's I have mentioned were reviews by Audioholics and have their measurements posted there.

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post #2 of 16 Old 05-22-2019, 11:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g.costanza View Post
I know with subwoofers you can “pick two” when it comes to small size, low price and capability, not all three. For this reason small, capable, relatively inexpensive subs fascinate me! Plus I no longer care to look at big ol boxes (or cylinders) in my living room. I now prefer my speakers to have a less obtrusive look. I went with some very good sounding LCR in-walls for this reason. And no, I can’t make the subs look like end tables, etc as the only “good” spots I’ve found in my room aren’t places I’d want tables. In fact, I do not mind looking at tiny/subs that perform well as the design skill/physics required intrigue me. Bigger subs actually bore me. Lol. Yeah it’s big. It’s loud. It’s deep. It’s should be. Lol. I guess it’s like comparing a tiny Formula 1 engine to a Top Fuel drag racing monster engine. Anyway,
I currently have a pair of jamo J-110's that play down to 25hz but fall off the cliff below that. I got them super cheap on a close out deal a couple years ago (about 1/3 retail).Their Klipsch-clone (R-110) is relatively inexpensive on amazon and won't last long as the new version (SPL-100) is out now at a more expensive price.
I'm curious how much "better" the tiny SVS Sb-2000 would be (outlet priced) to what I have now, but yet the slightly bigger (but same size as my Jamo's) RSL Speedwoofer 10s (2/3 of sb-2000 price) measures almost IDENTICAL to the SVS according to Brent Butterworth (a well known/respected professional audio reviewer).
I know I can return the SVS's for free, but I returned a pair of underwhelming SB12-NSD's to SVS a few years ago. Don't wanna have to do that again. The underwhelming performance could've been somewhat psychological. I expected more from an "SVS" sub. Also, they probably weren't placed well as I hadn't started to play with room EQ wizard yet. And now, looking at the old review, the SB12-NSD's CEA-2010 measurements don't look that much worse than the current SB-2000! Maybe a dB or two. All the sub's I have mentioned were reviews by Audioholics and have their measurements posted there.
Where are you located in case there is a local speaker maker near you or an excellent well known retailer?

Geoff A. J., California
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post #3 of 16 Old 05-22-2019, 12:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g.costanza View Post
I know with subwoofers you can “pick two” when it comes to small size, low price and capability, not all three. For this reason small, capable, relatively inexpensive subs fascinate me! Plus I no longer care to look at big ol boxes (or cylinders) in my living room. I now prefer my speakers to have a less obtrusive look. I went with some very good sounding LCR in-walls for this reason. And no, I can’t make the subs look like end tables, etc as the only “good” spots I’ve found in my room aren’t places I’d want tables. In fact, I do not mind looking at tiny/subs that perform well as the design skill/physics required intrigue me. Bigger subs actually bore me. Lol. Yeah it’s big. It’s loud. It’s deep. It’s should be. Lol. I guess it’s like comparing a tiny Formula 1 engine to a Top Fuel drag racing monster engine. Anyway,
I currently have a pair of jamo J-110's that play down to 25hz but fall off the cliff below that. I got them super cheap on a close out deal a couple years ago (about 1/3 retail).Their Klipsch-clone (R-110) is relatively inexpensive on amazon and won't last long as the new version (SPL-100) is out now at a more expensive price.
I'm curious how much "better" the tiny SVS Sb-2000 would be (outlet priced) to what I have now, but yet the slightly bigger (but same size as my Jamo's) RSL Speedwoofer 10s (2/3 of sb-2000 price) measures almost IDENTICAL to the SVS according to Brent Butterworth (a well known/respected professional audio reviewer).
I know I can return the SVS's for free, but I returned a pair of underwhelming SB12-NSD's to SVS a few years ago. Don't wanna have to do that again. The underwhelming performance could've been somewhat psychological. I expected more from an "SVS" sub. Also, they probably weren't placed well as I hadn't started to play with room EQ wizard yet. And now, looking at the old review, the SB12-NSD's CEA-2010 measurements don't look that much worse than the current SB-2000! Maybe a dB or two. All the sub's I have mentioned were reviews by Audioholics and have their measurements posted there.
The SVS SB3000 is not much larger and would be a substantial improvement in overall output over the SB12/SB2000.

Other small capable subs would JL Audio, Golden Ear. Can't think of any others right now. The RSLs would not be much of an improvement over what you have now especially if you're looking for lower extension. HSU ULS15.2 subs are about 20" cubed and would be a great choice.

Just not sure what your definition of small is.

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post #4 of 16 Old 05-22-2019, 12:58 PM
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I have a PSA S1510 in my small system, it's great for the size. They also have a dual opposed 10" model and a 12" model in the works for later this year.
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post #5 of 16 Old 05-22-2019, 01:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kini62 View Post
The SVS SB3000 is not much larger and would be a substantial improvement in overall output over the SB12/SB2000.

Other small capable subs would JL Audio, Golden Ear. Can't think of any others right now. The RSLs would not be much of an improvement over what you have now especially if you're looking for lower extension. HSU ULS15.2 subs are about 20" cubed and would be a great choice.

Just not sure what your definition of small is.
Thanks for the input. Small to me is 14~15” cubed. “Tiny” would be about 12” cube. A 20” cube would be large...too large. I’m looking at compact subs that are $400-ish. That SB-3000 is almost a grand. As I said I’m more intrigued and interested in subs that are pushing the limits of what small size and smaller price can achieve. I’ve seen several small “miracle” subs that are, unfortunately, priced way too high... ~$1000-ish. Considering the similar capabilities of the Speedwoofer vs the SB-2000, the svs seems a little overpriced, even on discount.
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post #6 of 16 Old 05-22-2019, 01:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ratbuddy View Post
I have a PSA S1510 in my small system, it's great for the size. They also have a dual opposed 10" model and a 12" model in the works for later this year.
That sounds interesting. They may have the small size and deep extension, but will they be $1000? 😥. It’s that holy grail of small, deep, loud, and inexpensive that I find so compelling. I may look into the diy route. A pair of dual opposed super-long throw 10’s in a prefab 12” sealed cube with an inexpensive external amp (inuke) would be my ideal! I already have a minidsp laying around for dsp/boosting the low end 👌🏼
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post #7 of 16 Old 05-22-2019, 01:28 PM
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Descriptors are vague, small, medium, large. I like to stick to actual dimensions.

If you are hesitant to upgrade because you might be underwhelmed with the upgrade, even (actually especially) psychologically, you have to go deeper. If budget/space allows, go bigger/deeper, and if it doesn't, wait. We as consumers cannot help evaluating products with a price tag attached. You want to take that out of the equation. If you get something much better, and it cost much, much, much more, you will not be happy. If you get something much, much, much better, and it costs 7x more, you can't do the math. You simply paid a premium and are enjoying the benefits
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post #8 of 16 Old 05-22-2019, 02:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Leon! View Post
Descriptors are vague, small, medium, large. I like to stick to actual dimensions.

If you are hesitant to upgrade because you might be underwhelmed with the upgrade, even (actually especially) psychologically, you have to go deeper. If budget/space allows, go bigger/deeper, and if it doesn't, wait. We as consumers cannot help evaluating products with a price tag attached. You want to take that out of the equation. If you get something much better, and it cost much, much, much more, you will not be happy. If you get something much, much, much better, and it costs 7x more, you can't do the math. You simply paid a premium and are enjoying the benefits
No offense but did you read the entire thread? I gave dimensions to what I consider small, etc. My first subwoofer was a $1200 servo driven velodyne in 1995(?). I’ve owned and built many sub variants in the years since. Big and small. Today, I’m less impressed with “bigger” subs. I could easily build a big ‘ol sub for $500 that would rattle my teeth. Boring. I bought the jamo’s I have on a whim. I was scaling down/minimizing my living room system, which had larger 12” subs. I replaced my NHT superzeros with some in-walls that “to my ears” sound slightly better than the nht’s and measure very flat over their range (according to room EQ wizard). I was used to “typical” $200-ish 10” subs (klipsch, Polk, Dayton,etc) in big ported boxes that barely reach 30hz with any authority, so I was surprised this small jamo sub that is as small as a sealed sub, was digging down to the mid 20’s! I had owned “small” sealed svs subs in the past, but had read that the newer, still very small sb-2000 outperformed those. Then I read that the WAY cheaper, but highly rated “sounding” Speedwoofer 10s had measurements (from a reputable source) that basically equaled the sb-2000. Wow. I couldn’t imagine why someone would buy the overpriced sb-2000. That led me to wonder if there was something out there even “better” than the RSL. Small (14~15” cube), relatively inexpensive ($400-ish), and with clean output to 20hz...

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post #9 of 16 Old 05-22-2019, 02:47 PM
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The dual PR kits from Dayton are probably the closest thing to what you're looking for, https://www.parts-express.com/powere...-in---300-7152 for 13" cube with 10" driver and PRs, or https://www.parts-express.com/powere...-dsp--300-7154 for a 16" cube with 12's.
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post #10 of 16 Old 05-22-2019, 04:11 PM
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Rythmik L12 is 14" x 14" x 15" ...

Martin Logan Dynamo 700 (on closeout pricing) is roughly a 12" cube.

Another option to consider is the thin sub. Kef, Totem, and Triad all have entries in this new market (along with some cheaper options from Amazon). Hang your sub(s) on the wall? Hide behind curtains? Slide under the couch (granted, tall couch) or between couch and side table?

https://www.kefdirect.com/speakers/h...ered-10in.html

https://totemacoustic.com/en/tribe-sub

https://www.triadspeakers.com/produc...ronze-slimsub/

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Last edited by RayGuy; 05-22-2019 at 04:21 PM.
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post #11 of 16 Old 05-23-2019, 12:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g.costanza View Post
.
.
.
Today, I’m less impressed with “bigger” subs. I could easily build a big ‘ol sub for $500 that would rattle my teeth. Boring.

.
.
.
Jamo’s
.
.
.
NHT superzeros
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.
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was used to “typical” $200-ish 10” subs (klipsch, Polk, Dayton,etc)
.
.

I had owned “small” sealed svs subs in the past, but had read that the newer, still very small sb-2000 outperformed those. Then I read that the WAY cheaper, but highly rated “sounding” Speedwoofer 10s had measurements (from a reputable source) that basi...
Ah from the above snipped topics I believe I recognize you from the SD forums, hello.

Nice, yeah I think you pretty much have it figured out now, kind of what you're looking for here. While many of us around here do enjoy the performance of large ported subs, for strong output for content below 20hz in particular, it sounds like to you what's most important is minimizing size/cost, so yes I think the SB2k and/or the RSL speed subwoofer just might do the trick on that front. I've read positive feedback on those subs too, also from reputable internet sources. Let us know how they work out for you!

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post #12 of 16 Old 05-23-2019, 05:06 AM - Thread Starter
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Ah from the above snipped topics I believe I recognize you from the SD forums, hello.

Nice, yeah I think you pretty much have it figured out now, kind of what you're looking for here. While many of us around here do enjoy the performance of large ported subs, for strong output for content below 20hz in particular, it sounds like to you what's most important is minimizing size/cost, so yes I think the SB2k and/or the RSL speed subwoofer just might do the trick on that front. I've read positive feedback on those subs too, also from reputable internet sources. Let us know how they work out for you!
Hi fellow SD’er! Lol.
Based on the post above your’s, I’m also looking hard at the $540 (shipped) Rythmik L12 too. I wish I could find some cea-2010 measurements on it tho. I’m scratching the overpriced svs off the list!
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post #13 of 16 Old 05-23-2019, 10:51 AM
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Hi fellow SD’er! Lol.
Based on the post above your’s, I’m also looking hard at the $540 (shipped) Rythmik L12 too. I wish I could find some cea-2010 measurements on it tho. I’m scratching the overpriced svs off the list!
Ascend gives a discount if you buy 2:

http://www.ascendacoustics.com/pages.../subs/l12.html

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post #14 of 16 Old 05-23-2019, 10:58 AM - Thread Starter
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Ascend gives a discount if you buy 2:

http://www.ascendacoustics.com/pages.../subs/l12.html
Nice!
This might be an expensive weekend. Lol. Just ordered this...
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07FJ6THDT/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_R5T5CbQGCKPVR
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post #15 of 16 Old 05-23-2019, 11:02 AM
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Nice chair! Now for the matching subs!



Keep us in the loop as you integrate them into the system.

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post #16 of 16 Old 05-26-2019, 11:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g.costanza View Post
Thanks for the input. Small to me is 14~15” cubed. “Tiny” would be about 12” cube. A 20” cube would be large...too large. I’m looking at compact subs that are $400-ish. That SB-3000 is almost a grand. As I said I’m more intrigued and interested in subs that are pushing the limits of what small size and smaller price can achieve. I’ve seen several small “miracle” subs that are, unfortunately, priced way too high... ~$1000-ish. Considering the similar capabilities of the Speedwoofer vs the SB-2000, the svs seems a little overpriced, even on discount.
Rythmik L12

Dimensions: 14"(W) x 14" (H )x 15-1/2" (D) with grille and amplifier knobs
Frequency Response: 18 - 100 Hz (-3 dB @ 18Hz)

Edit: someone beat me to it

Edit 2:
Quote:
I wish I could find some cea-2010 measurements on it tho
L12 does 94.6dB at 20Hz. I would recommend a pair so that you can couple the low-end, get your +6dB up to 30Hz and flatten the curve.

HT: Samsung PN64H5000 (recommended settings) | NAD T758 V3 | Buchardt S400 (2) | Emotiva E2 (2) | Rythmik Audio F12 (2)

Last edited by Soulburner; 05-26-2019 at 11:08 PM.
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