Should I upgrade my subwoofer and if so, what subwoofers do you recommend? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 8 Old 05-26-2019, 02:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Should I upgrade my subwoofer and if so, what subwoofers do you recommend?

Room dimensions/layout & picture album: https://imgur.com/a/GhlqXQo

Note - I will be acoustically treating my room with bass traps, absorbers, and diffusers. I will be professionally calibrating the entire system (video & audio) and treating the room per what the testing results & math shows to get an accurate as possible audio signal (accounting for rt60 times, etc.).

I'm looking to upgrade my subwoofer to a dual-sub system. I'm currently running a 10 year old Jamo D 6 SUB. Along with that a 5.1 Jamo S 606 HCS 3 system. I will be upgrading to ceiling mounted Dolby Atmos height speakers in a 5.2.4 configuration. AVR is a Denon x4400h.

TV is a 77" LG C8 OLED TV.

My biggest complaint on my system is my subwoofer drops off a ton at 35hz, and is inaudible past 28-25 hz, so I'm missing out on a lot of content. Then just having one subwoofer it seems like there are a lot of standing waves/null spots around. Currently my main listening position is fine but the last place I lived at I had to sub crawl for a day to get a decent spot.

To answer the sticky questions:

1. Budget
Up to $2,500 per sub $5,000 max hard limit on my budget including shipping & sales tax. I'd greatly would prefer something in the $1,000/sub range ($2k preferred.) I'm willing to spend extra though to meet my requirements.

2. Size requirements/limits.
I'm disabled (narcolepsy) so it's not safe for my boyfriend and I to lift more than 100lbs together in case I have a sleep attack. Any sub above 100lbs I'll need to bring in friends or professional help to move around. No wife approval factor as we're both guys here so go crazy otherwise, as long as it still fits in our apartment and our current gear.

3. Room dimensions.
I have 9' ceilings, living room is 18'x14' (2,268^3 cubic ft) and an open dining room/living room (total open air volume is 3,600 ft^3). Hardwood floors but it's on a concrete floor. Main listening position is 8.5' feet from the tv and is the 3 theater-seat sofa. Audyssey mic 1 is the middle seat on the sofa. I usually sit in the left seat.

4. Primary uses.
80-90% Home Theater usage (equal mix between streaming(netflix), tv shows, anime, movies, UHD bluray movies)
10-20% Music (Muse, Incubus, Green Day, Alternative Rock, classical, etc.)
10% Video Games (I'm a PC gamer and not much of a console gamer but we will likely pick up next gen consoles when they come out.)

For movies specifically - heavy on fantasy, sci fi, action, and comic movies - all demanding awesome bass.

5. Listening habits.
I am in an apartment and I've had no complaints or issues up to listening to -8 db MV (master volume.) Our preferred listening volume is -15 db for everyday use (even at midnight). We only kick it up to -8 db for special movies during the day. Originally I thought 0 db was theater level reference sounds until Ed Mullen from SVS corrected me that is only the case if there is no room gain. I guess my -8db listening is pretty close to the theatrical experience!

As far as our apartment goes we've been here for a year now with no complaints. We never hear our neighbors. It seems like this place has great soundproofing between apartments. I think it's concrete walls and 100% confirmed concrete floors (they put in hardwood floors for us.) Our volume is limited by our ears and preference over our neighbors. However, since it is an apartment, we still want to be respectful.

As far as bass itself goes I want to listen to what the audio content creator intends. So if we're listening to reference level then reference level bass it is. If we're listening to lower than reference values then since low frequency drops perceived volume quicker then upping bass a bit so it still has proportionally the same perceived bass to other frequencies as the content creator intended. I'm currently using DEQ to manage this on my denon AVR-x4400h.

I do desire some future proofing as I hate having to buy again. I anticipate I'll be in a house within 5 years (maybe sooner) and can therefore crank up the volume as much as I want. I don't really want to go past theatrical limits though as I value my hearing.

As far as the type of bass I definitely prefer precise and articulate bass over boomy. I care greatly about quality over raw loudness - as long as it can still hit LFE 115db peak reference levels. At the same time I definitely want to experience very low bass - including infrasonic bass down to 10-15 hz if possible.

6. Appearance requirements.
Nicely finished. Unfortunately it is visible in our living room and fits the decor. We like the style of the SVS series.

7. Timeframe.
As long as it takes. Definitely has to be a retail product/purchase though - not going to build our own.

I'm currently considering these subwoofers:
SVS SB-2000 / PB-2000
SVS SB-3000 / PB-3000
SVS SB-4000 / PB-4000
SVS SB16-Ultra / PB16-Ultra
HSU VTF-15H MK2

I posted over on Reddit and they recommended the SB-2000/PB-2000

Contacting SVS Ed Mullen recommended me the sealed SB-4000 to fit my usage needs. Thanks Ed! You've been very helpful in pointing out a lot of things I didn't even realize.

What do you think? I'm having a hard time deciding between that and the ported version.

Audioholic's CEA 2010 testing shows a wickedly flat curve for the ported/extended modes down to the tuning frequencies of 20hz/18hz, while sealed starts rolling off at 40hz but at a much more gradual rolloff of 12db per octave vs the 24 db per octave. The sealed does pull ahead past 15 hz which is what I'm wanting to experience. Room gain will probably boost the sealed levels a lot realistically so the end result in my room is hopefully flat.

I'm a bit more concerned when it comes down to total harmonic distortion. Both standard and the extended port modes look impeccably clean down to the tuning point on all output, while distortion starts to be really audible in sealed mode at about 100 decibels at 25hz (90db looks fine down to 12hz~ which is awesome). I guess with room gain possibly giving me +12 db gain then +6db dual sub sealed should still hopefully be ok at 115db peaks but I'm a bit worried. Of course with sealed subwoofers the driver has to quadruple it's excursion for higher SPL at lower frequencies so we are just fighting against the limits of raw pure physics here. On the other hand neither the ported or extended mode can even hit 12hz at 90 db without distortion - again pure physics, we don't want to start chuffing a ported subwoofer.

Then lastly the ported subwoofer does give us one experience that the sealed can never provide - moving physical air from the ports which some people may find brings a whole new experience to movies. Or it could be annoying. Neither of us have had that experience. (Of course you don't get that in a regular theater.)

Regardless of the air flow we both want to be able to feel the bass as intended. I will be picking up some chair bass shakers as after all we are in an apartment and can't regularly shake our neighbors walls. Plus with my current subwoofer not going below 40hz we really haven't had shaky bass either...

So right now I'm pretty much stuck trying to decide between 2x SVS SB-4000 and 2x SVS PB-4000. With the PB-4000s I know I won't have any what ifs or regrets as I can always plug up the ports and run in sealed mode. However, it's a ton taller, longer, bigger, etc and is too heavy for us to manage ourselves. While the sealed version is smaller, weighs less, and is obviously designed as running primarily in sealed mode. Plus a huge cost savings as SVS has $1,300/sub outlet specials with no damage vs their $1,600 msrp.

I know they have 45 days of home trial use if we went with SVS. I'd still rather get it right the first time as even just reboxing it will be a pain for us and we'd rather not have to deal with that.

I'm also considering the SB-3000. I can't really find much independent testing on it and no CEA 2010 measurements. How does the SB-3000 compare to the SB-4000?

At the end of the day I think I'm close to pulling the trigger on 2x sealed SB-4000 subs but want to absolutely be sure.

Last edited by Randy Martinez; 05-26-2019 at 03:07 PM.
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post #2 of 8 Old 05-26-2019, 02:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy Martinez View Post
Room dimensions/layout & picture album: https://imgur.com/a/GhlqXQo

Note - I will be acoustically treating my room with bass traps, absorbers, and diffusers. I will be professionally calibrating the entire system (video & audio) and treating the room per what the testing results & math shows to get an accurate as possible audio signal (accounting for rt60 times, etc.).

I'm looking to upgrade my subwoofer to a dual-sub system. I'm currently running a 10 year old Jamo D 6 SUB. Along with that a 5.1 Jamo S 606 HCS 3 system. I will be upgrading to ceiling mounted Dolby Atmos height speakers in a 5.2.4 configuration. AVR is a Denon x4400h.

TV is a 77" LG C8 OLED TV.

My biggest complaint on my system is my subwoofer drops off a ton at 35hz, and is inaudible past 28-25 hz, so I'm missing out on a lot of content. Then just having one subwoofer it seems like there are a lot of standing waves/null spots around. Currently my main listening position is fine but the last place I lived at I had to sub crawl for a day to get a decent spot.

To answer the sticky questions:

1. Budget
Up to $2,500 per sub $5,000 max hard limit on my budget including shipping & sales tax. I'd greatly would prefer something in the $1,000/sub range ($2k preferred.) I'm willing to spend extra though to meet my requirements.

2. Size requirements/limits.
I'm disabled (narcolepsy) so it's not safe for my boyfriend and I to lift more than 100lbs together in case I have a sleep attack. Any sub above 100lbs I'll need to bring in friends or professional help to move around. No wife approval factor as we're both guys here so go crazy otherwise, as long as it still fits in our apartment and our current gear.

3. Room dimensions.
I have 9' ceilings, living room is 18'x14' (2,268^3 cubic ft) and an open dining room/living room (total open air volume is 3,600 ft^3). Hardwood floors but it's on a concrete floor. Main listening position is 8.5' feet from the tv and is the 3 theater-seat sofa. Audyssey mic 1 is the middle seat on the sofa. I usually sit in the left seat.

4. Primary uses.
80-90% Home Theater usage (equal mix between streaming(netflix), tv shows, anime, movies, UHD bluray movies)
10-20% Music (Muse, Incubus, Green Day, Alternative Rock, classical, etc.)
10% Video Games (I'm a PC gamer and not much of a console gamer but we will likely pick up next gen consoles when they come out.)

For movies specifically - heavy on fantasy, sci fi, action, and comic movies - all demanding awesome bass.

5. Listening habits.
I am in an apartment and I've had no complaints or issues up to listening to -8 db MV (master volume.) Our preferred listening is -15 db for everyday use (even at midnight). We only kick it up to -8 db for special movies during the day. Originally I thought 0 db was theater level reference sounds until Ed Mullen from SVS corrected me that is only the case if there is no room gain. I guess my -8db listening is pretty close to the theatrical experience!

As far as our apartment goes we've been here for a year now with no complaints. We never hear our neighbors. It seems like this place has great soundproofing between apartments. I think it's concrete walls and 100% confirmed concrete floors (they put in hardwood floors for us.) Our volume is limited by our ears and preference over our neighbors. However, since it is an apartment, we still want to be respectful.

As far as bass itself goes I want to listen to what the audio content creator intends. So if we're listening to reference level then reference level bass it is. If we're listening to lower than reference values then since low frequency drops perceived volume quicker then upping bass a bit so it still has proportionally the same perceived bass to other frequencies as the content creator intended. I'm currently using DEQ to manage this on my denon AVR-x4400h.

I do desire some future proofing as I hate having to buy again. I anticipate I'll be in a house within 5 years (maybe sooner) and can therefore crank up the volume as much as I want. I don't really want to go past theatrical limits though as I value my hearing.

As far as the type of bass I definitely prefer precise and articulate bass over boomy. I care greatly about quality over raw loudness - as long as it can still hit LFE 115db peak reference levels. At the same time I definitely want to experience very low bass - including infrasonic bass down to 10-15 hz if possible.

6. Appearance requirements.
Nicely finished. Unfortunately it is visible in our living room and fits the decor. We like the style of the SVS series.

7. Timeframe.
As long as it takes. Definitely has to be a retail product/purchase though - not going to build our own.

I'm currently considering these subwoofers:
SVS SB-2000 / PB-2000
SVS SB-3000 / PB-3000
SVS SB-4000 / PB-4000
SVS SB16-Ultra / PB16-Ultra
HSU VTF-15H MK2

I posted over on Reddit and they recommended the SB-2000/PB-2000

Contacting SVS Ed Mullen recommended me the sealed SB-4000 to fit my usage needs. Thanks Ed! You've been very helpful in pointing out a lot of things I didn't even realize.

What do you think? I'm having a hard time deciding between that and the ported version.

Audioholic's CEA 2010 testing shows a wickedly flat curve for the ported/extended modes down to the tuning frequencies of 20hz/18hz, while sealed starts rolling off at 40hz but at a much more gradual rolloff of 12db per octave vs the 24 db per octave. The sealed does pull ahead past 15 hz which is what I'm wanting to experience. Room gain will probably boost the sealed levels a lot realistically so the end result in my room is hopefully flat.

I'm a bit more concerned when it comes down to total harmonic distortion. Both standard and the extended port modes look impeccably clean down to the tuning point on all output, while distortion starts to be really audible in sealed mode at about 100 decibels at 25hz (90db looks fine down to 12hz~ which is awesome). I guess with room gain possibly giving me +12 db gain then +6db dual sub sealed should still hopefully be ok at 115db peaks but I'm a bit worried. Of course with sealed subwoofers the driver has to quadruple it's excursion for higher SPL at lower frequencies so we are just fighting against the limits of raw pure physics here. On the other hand neither the ported or extended mode can even hit 12hz at 90 db without distortion - again pure physics, we don't want to start chuffing a ported subwoofer.

Then lastly the ported subwoofer does give us one experience that the sealed can never provide - moving physical air from the ports which some people may find brings a whole new experience to movies. Or it could be annoying. Neither of us have had that experience. (Of course you don't get that in a regular theater.)

Regardless of the air flow we both want to be able to feel the bass as intended. I will be picking up some chair bass shakers as after all we are in an apartment and can't regularly shake our neighbors walls. Plus with my current subwoofer not going below 40hz we really haven't had shaky bass either...

So right now I'm pretty much stuck trying to decide between 2x SVS SB-4000 and 2x SVS PB-4000. With the PB-4000s I know I won't have any what ifs or regrets as I can always plug up the ports and run in sealed mode. However, it's a ton taller, longer, bigger, etc and is too heavy for us to manage ourselves. While the sealed version is smaller, weighs less, and is obviously designed as running primarily in sealed mode. Plus a huge cost savings as SVS has $1,300/sub outlet specials with no damage vs their $1,600 msrp.

I know they have 45 days of home trial use if we went with SVS. I'd still rather get it right the first time as even just reboxing it will be a pain for us and we'd rather not have to deal with that.

I'm also considering the SB-3000. I can't really find much independent testing on it and no CEA 2010 measurements. How does the SB-3000 compare to the SB-4000?

At the end of the day I think I'm close to pulling the trigger on the sealed SB-4000 but want to absolutely be sure.

If you have the $5K to spend and can do so without issue then spend it. No second guessing then.

This would be my top pick at 2500/per- http://www.rythmikaudio.com/FV25HP.html
This is also a great choice- can be had in gloss black- http://www.rythmikaudio.com/G25HP.html


JTR and Seaton sound make great subs and they can be custom ordered with different veneer/finishes. At least I think Seaton does custom.



A pair of these in a variety of colors would also be a great choice in that price range- https://www.deepseasound.com/product...s-18-subwoofer


Don't skimp on the subs.
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post #3 of 8 Old 05-26-2019, 04:27 PM
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The recommendation you got for SB-2000/PB-2000 is not good, particularly the SB-2000. I wouldn't be looking at sealed subs for this room and home theater use. You have a very large, open space to fill. I think you should aim for the high side of your price budget to ensure you aren't unhappy with the end results. As far as moving heavy subs goes, furniture sliders are available for hard floors and carpet.



I think the least expensive route I would go for a pair of very capable subs would be dual Monolith THX Ultra 15's. A pair will cost you $2500, but they go on sale occasionally. The Monolith 15 is very comparable performance wise to the SVS PB-4000, but costs far less. From there, if you want to go all-in and don't mind tall subs, the PSA V3611 would be $4200 for two.
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Subs>RBH I-12e/I-12. HSU VTF-15H mk2. Monolith THX 12(x2)/THX 10(x2). XTZ 1X12. SVS PB-1000(x2). Speakers>JBL 270/235c/230/225c, Arena 130/125c. Jamo S807/S803. Infinity P363/163. Sony CS3/CS8/CS5. QA 3020i/3090Ci, 2020i/2000c. Monolith Cinema 5 bs. Polk RTiA1/CsiA4. Other Audio>Sony MDR-Z7m2, WH-XB700, XB32, XB31. Sennheiser HD58X, HD4.50, PC37X. SIVGA SV004. HyperX Cloud PS4 HS. Plantronics RIG500 Pro HS. LG FH6,RK8,RK7,PK5. UE Boom3.

Last edited by MIX_MASTER_ICE; 05-26-2019 at 04:32 PM.
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post #4 of 8 Old 05-26-2019, 06:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kini62 View Post
If you have the $5K to spend and can do so without issue then spend it. No second guessing then.

This would be my top pick at 2500/per- http://www.rythmikaudio.com/FV25HP.html
This is also a great choice- can be had in gloss black- http://www.rythmikaudio.com/G25HP.html

JTR and Seaton sound make great subs and they can be custom ordered with different veneer/finishes. At least I think Seaton does custom.

A pair of these in a variety of colors would also be a great choice in that price range- https://www.deepseasound.com/product...s-18-subwoofer

Don't skimp on the subs.
+1
Many make this error, only to regret there decision later.
Do it once, and cry once money wise

Quote:
Originally Posted by MIX_MASTER_ICE View Post
The recommendation you got for SB-2000/PB-2000 is not good, particularly the SB-2000. I wouldn't be looking at sealed subs for this room and home theater use. You have a very large, open space to fill. I think you should aim for the high side of your price budget to ensure you aren't unhappy with the end results. As far as moving heavy subs goes, furniture sliders are available for hard floors and carpet.

I think the least expensive route I would go for a pair of very capable subs would be dual Monolith THX Ultra 15's. A pair will cost you $2500, but they go on sale occasionally. The Monolith 15 is very comparable performance wise to the SVS PB-4000, but costs far less. From there, if you want to go all-in and don't mind tall subs, the PSA V3611 would be $4200 for two.
Another big +1, this a very large area for subs to fill.
I would also go with dual port subs, over seal ones. For this room.

If the OP @Randy Martinez want to learn more about the differences, between port and seal. He can read this info here;
VIII-A: Sealed Versus Ported Subwoofers:
VIII-C: Selecting Single Versus Multiple Subwoofers:


Darth
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Last edited by darthray; 05-26-2019 at 06:13 PM.
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You live in an apartment, want 10 hz output, and a sub that doesn't weigh more than 100 lbs. The SB4000 (I'd get two), seems pretty reasonable.

There's no sense planning for what you might want when you're in a future home, since there's too many unknowns. There's a good chance though that you'll eventually want ported, but you'd have to bend on either the extension or weight requirement to make it worthwhile.
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post #6 of 8 Old 05-26-2019, 10:39 PM
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Based on your room size, concrete construction, 80%+ home theater use, and criteria such as "as far as bass itself goes I want to listen to what the audio content creator intends, "as far as the type of bass I definitely prefer precise and articulate bass over boomy. I care greatly about quality over raw loudness - as long as it can still hit LFE 115db peak reference levels. At the same time I definitely want to experience very low bass - including infrasonic bass down to 10-15 hz if possible" you need a high-output Rythmik, not SVS, because you need maximum detail in your bass to meet that last criteria. And if it needs to be closer to 100lbs:

Recommendation would be FV15HP x 2
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Personally I am a huge fan of Power Sound Audio. This previous model page https://www.powersoundaudio.com/products/S3000i has images of their wood veneer available on their newer ones. I am on concrete in a basement and these subs are incredible! Also they are going through a new line launch and it is anticipated they will get a bunch of trade-ins so you might find a bargain. Their used subs also get a fresh 5 year warranty from time of sale. Just something to consider.

TV: LG OLED 65B7A, Receiver: Marantz SR-6012, Blu-Ray Player: LG UBK90, Fronts: JBL S312, Center: JBL S-Center, Surrounds: JBL S38, Top: Yamaha NS-AW1, Subwoofer: 2 PSA S3000i and one PSA XS-30se--- 5.3.4 setup
http://www.blu-ray.com/community/col...&action=hybrid
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post #8 of 8 Old 05-26-2019, 11:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joshua Chmiel View Post
Personally I am a huge fan of Power Sound Audio. This previous model page https://www.powersoundaudio.com/products/S3000i has images of their wood veneer available on their newer ones. I am on concrete in a basement and these subs are incredible! Also they are going through a new line launch and it is anticipated they will get a bunch of trade-ins so you might find a bargain. Their used subs also get a fresh 5 year warranty from time of sale. Just something to consider.
Greetings from Lincoln

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