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post #31 of 77 Old 06-06-2019, 08:52 PM
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Originally Posted by bear123 View Post

However, one thing that I don't think gets quite enough credit is PSA's devotion to making their products in the USA. They could lower the cost of their product or raise profit margins quite a bit if they chose to have their product made in China. I think people should decide if this is important to them and, if so, vote with their wallets.
I know we get a lot of positive comments about this from sub shoppers communicating with me on the phone/email/chat. Now we're hearing how other manufacturers couldn't POSSIBLY stay in business if any tariffs end up eating in to their margins Or, even better. "There's no manufacturing capabilities in the entire USA/CANADA that could provide the amps, woofers, or cabinets we need!!!"

Don't get me wrong bear123, I understand the allure. When you have a business model that can have more profit margin than jtr+seaton+psa all COMBINED? Yeah, who am I to argue..

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post #32 of 77 Old 06-06-2019, 09:21 PM
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I was not talking negative at all. I looked at Monolith because of what I had read. I know every company has issues, from SVS on down. I just had a rough time because unboxing that beast with my wife was rough, and she hurt her wrist helping me repack that behemoth with the lack of feet on it with any kind of carpet, not to mention the 3 week process for return and freight set up. I have never had to deal with that before. At the time I had issues, there seemed to be more than a handful on various forums with the same amp issue. Then the basement flooded and I was just done.
The Monolith, true to its name, is mabe 1.2-1.4x heavier than other 15" competitors. In addition to their monster driver, I don't know why they chose to use HDF or have so much bracing, it no doubts adds to its sound signature.

But the weight is enough to rule it out for me. I can manage to move a 70-80lb box, barely, anything over that is a no go.
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post #33 of 77 Old 06-06-2019, 10:26 PM
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The Monolith is large and heavy, but the svs pb-4000, which has a smaller 13.5" driver, is larger and heavier.
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post #34 of 77 Old 06-07-2019, 04:41 AM
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Man, some of yous are so weak... Man card revoked...

With a hand truck, I moved the 140lb Cap 1400 from my family room to my car and back several times by myself to attend GTGs. When I picked up the Monolith 15" for review at Monoprice, I also carried it into my family room by myself.
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post #35 of 77 Old 06-07-2019, 04:58 AM
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Man, some of yous are so weak... Man card revoked...

With a hand truck, I moved the 140lb Cap 1400 from my family room to my car and back several times by myself to attend GTGs. When I picked up the Monolith 15" for review at Monoprice, I also carried it into my family room by myself.
Haha.... reminds me of AVS'er mastermaybe










https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...er-review.html
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post #36 of 77 Old 06-07-2019, 05:38 AM
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Originally Posted by jamiebosco View Post
Haha.... reminds me of AVS'er mastermaybe


https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...er-review.html
Damn... You are good mate! How did you do that?



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post #37 of 77 Old 06-07-2019, 05:58 AM
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Damn... You are good mate! How did you do that?



You have no idea how many have seen this picture, but nobody knew who he was!!!
Haha- you know that's NOT me in that picture - right? @mastermaybe 's "JTR Captivator: A Kinda Comprehensive User Review" thread linked above is a great read,I've had it bookmarked for a while
And yes, he must be a beast to lug the 160lb Cap around like that!!
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post #38 of 77 Old 06-07-2019, 10:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
There's a big difference between port area and laminar air flow potential. As I'm sure most realize a circle(tube) is ideal. A shape with three sharp corners...not so much.. I remember the old ms3 sub with the original dual triangle design circa(1999?)...Nousaine measured it and he found it did well in that regard but it was tuned much higher too of course.

https://offerup.com/item/detail/43940046/

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The main issue with turbulence is when the airflow has to go over a small radius edge, not so much the shape of the port. The primary difference between a round port versus any other shaped port is the surface area to cross sectional area. For the same cross sectional area, a round port has the smallest surface area for the air to flow over. This does increase the frictional losses but not cause more turbulence. We have been using 4" round ports since we started business over 25 years ago, so we are extremely familiar with it. We would not have gone to a triangular port in the 15H if we did not feel it's an improvement over the 4" round port we have been using all along... Note too that while a triangular port has a larger surface area to cross sectional area compared to a round port, a slot port (especially a long and narrow slot) has a lot higher surface area to cross sectional area ratio!
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post #39 of 77 Old 06-07-2019, 10:58 AM
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Originally Posted by jamiebosco View Post
Haha- you know that's NOT me in that picture - right? @mastermaybe 's "JTR Captivator: A Kinda Comprehensive User Review" thread linked above is a great read,I've had it bookmarked for a while
And yes, he must be a beast to lug the 160lb Cap around like that!!
Yes, I know you are not the person in the picture.

However, even finding out who that is is a feat in my book.
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post #40 of 77 Old 06-07-2019, 12:34 PM
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Originally Posted by dr_hsu View Post
Note too that while a triangular port has a larger surface area to cross sectional area compared to a round port, a slot port (especially a long and narrow slot) has a lot higher surface area to cross sectional area ratio!
I have already gone on record many times explaining that anything other than a single widely flared round port is a compromise. It is either a compromise for cost savings or for styling considerations. That includes our own V1811 design of course --- as I'm guessing that is what you're referencing. If anyone asked me "if you keep all other metrics exactly the same but changed the v1811 to one large round port with a big round over termination would it have better laminar port flow?" I would say, "yes, absolutely". But that goes for triangles too.

And as mentioned the original triangle port designs on the ADS subs did seem to work fine overall as well so using that style/design and adding a simple round over should be even better.

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post #41 of 77 Old 06-07-2019, 01:14 PM
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Unless disabled, a grown man should be able to carry a sub under 200 lbs imo. Our society is far too weak and sedentary.


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post #42 of 77 Old 06-07-2019, 01:29 PM
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Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
Unless disabled, a grown man should be able to carry a sub under 200 lbs imo. Our society is far too weak and sedentary.


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A real man should be able to carry a 500 pound sub under each arm. How dare you not live up to my expectations?
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post #43 of 77 Old 06-07-2019, 01:34 PM
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I have already gone on record many times explaining that anything other than a single widely flared round port is a compromise. It is either a compromise for cost savings or for styling considerations. That includes our own V1811 design of course --- as I'm guessing that is what you're referencing. If anyone asked me "if you keep all other metrics exactly the same but changed the v1811 to one large round port with a big round over termination would it have better laminar port flow?" I would say, "yes, absolutely". But that goes for triangles too.

And as mentioned the original triangle port designs on the ADS subs did seem to work fine overall as well so using that style/design and adding a simple round over should be even better.

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Actually not rounding the tips of the triangular port does not affect the port performance significantly. That is because the air flow is parallel to this edge. What would have improved the ADS ports (which you pointed out worked very well already) would be to flare the ends of their ports. Those sharp edges are perpendicular to the air flow and will create turbulence.
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post #44 of 77 Old 06-07-2019, 02:49 PM
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Originally Posted by dr_hsu View Post
Actually not rounding the tips of the triangular port does not affect the port performance significantly. That is because the air flow is parallel to this edge. What would have improved the ADS ports (which you pointed out worked very well already) would be to flare the ends of their ports. Those sharp edges are perpendicular to the air flow and will create turbulence.
Agreed, I was referring to their ports. Sorry if I wasnt clear.

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post #45 of 77 Old 06-07-2019, 03:00 PM
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Unless disabled, a grown man should be able to carry a sub under 200 lbs imo. Our society is far too weak and sedentary.


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post #46 of 77 Old 06-07-2019, 03:46 PM
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I vote for HSU

Variable tuning, quality looking and performing, quality service.

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post #47 of 77 Old 06-07-2019, 05:20 PM
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Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
Unless disabled, a grown man should be able to carry a sub under 200 lbs imo. Our society is far too weak and sedentary.


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\
Good Lord!!!! they must breed 'em strong where you're from!
65lb PB-2000s were a breeze to move, the 125lb SubMersives were difficult, but just doable by myself...


I cant imagine anywhere that has normal everyday (not disabled) men that can carry even (only) 175lb SVS PB16Ultras


Mark looks to be struggling a bit to SLIDE the behemoth (with help)


If you are such a beast, my hat goes off to you sir!
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post #48 of 77 Old 06-07-2019, 05:26 PM
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The PB16 is a big sub....would probably be almost impossible to carry in the box. Unpacked....depends on how awkward it would be I suppose. That's probably the biggest issue on a large sub. I think ported subs are a little easier...the ports make convenient hand holds. My sealed sub with HST-18 driver in it was a bit of a PITA to carry, but the driver alone weighed over 70 lbs lol.
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post #49 of 77 Old 06-07-2019, 06:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
There's a big difference between port area and laminar air flow potential. As I'm sure most realize a circle(tube) is ideal. A shape with three sharp corners...not so much.. I remember the old ms3 sub with the original dual triangle design circa(1999?)...Nousaine measured it and he found it did well in that regard but it was tuned much higher too of course.

https://offerup.com/item/detail/43940046/

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Tom, why don't you offer a sonosub. Its a win win for everyone - its much stronger structurally without needing bracing, much lighter, which saves on shipping and is just so much better, it sounds just as good, it must be cheaper to manufacture (just cut right length sonotube) and even looks good (yeah, a huge black box is no better for WAF than stylish cat pillar).

Is it because people have been brainwashed into thinking they aren't as good? Hence there'll be no demand?
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post #50 of 77 Old 06-07-2019, 06:42 PM
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Unless disabled, a grown man should be able to carry a sub under 200 lbs imo. Our society is far too weak and sedentary.


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First of all, thats a grown FIT man. Which is what maybe 10% of people?

And secondly, even if you could, you are one twitch or stumble away from permanently ruining your back for life. Plenty of pro athletes and fitness pros have done it with less weight and they do this for a living.

No thanks.
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post #51 of 77 Old 06-07-2019, 06:52 PM
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Tom, why don't you offer a sonosub. Its a win win for everyone - its much stronger structurally without needing bracing, much lighter, which saves on shipping and is just so much better, it sounds just as good, it must be cheaper to manufacture (just cut right length sonotube) and even looks good (yeah, a huge black box is no better for WAF than stylish cat pillar).

Is it because people have been brainwashed into thinking they aren't as good? Hence there'll be no demand?

* Much stronger. Are there audible advantages? If not, then it's just marketing gobblygook ammo. There's already enough of that going around the industry.

* Lighter saves shipping. Shipping costs is often define by dimensional weight. So I can ship and empty box or a box with a assembled sub and the cost would be similar in the majority of scenarios.

* Cheaper to manufacture. I dunno about that. Two end caps, one fabric sleeve, the cylinder itself, the amp mount. Myabe a base plate? On one hand one of my top priorities to to alleviate the bottle-neck in product capabilities now---which is the spray booth. So this would help. On the other hand we're talking additional assembly time per unit.

So an interesting idea but I get so very few inquires about cylinders I just don't see it happening.

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post #52 of 77 Old 06-07-2019, 06:53 PM
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First of all, thats a grown FIT man. Which is what maybe 10% of people?
Exactly my point. We have a weak, sedentary society. A grown man should be able to lift moderately heavy objects. People throw their backs out doing routine things because we are a weak and sedentary society.

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And secondly, even if you could, you are one twitch or stumble away from permanently ruining your back for life. Plenty of pro athletes and fitness pros have done it with less weight and they do this for a living.

No thanks.
The back is not as fragile as most people think. If you are weak and sedentary and lift something heavy with poor technique, yeah, probably risk injury. Point is, it shouldn't be that big of a deal. It is because we are so weak and sedentary. Strength is healthy and promotes longer life and independence as we age, rather than being frail, weak, and barely able to get on and off a toilet by age 65. My well past retirement age mom can now do 10+ full pushups after just a short time of a little effort. I wonder how many *men* can't do this. Sad if you think about it.
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post #53 of 77 Old 06-07-2019, 07:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
* Much stronger. Are there audible advantages? If not, then it's just marketing gobblygook ammo. There's already enough of that going around the industry.

* Lighter saves shipping. Shipping costs is often define by dimensional weight. So I can ship and empty box or a box with a assembled sub and the cost would be similar in the majority of scenarios.

* Cheaper to manufacture. I dunno about that. Two end caps, one fabric sleeve, the cylinder itself, the amp mount. Myabe a base plate? On one hand one of my top priorities to to alleviate the bottle-neck in product capabilities now---which is the spray booth. So this would help. On the other hand we're talking additional assembly time per unit.

So an interesting idea but I get so very few inquires about cylinders I just don't see it happening.

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I mean a cylinder/arch shape is stronger by design so you don't need internal bracing, hence it can be lighter. Surely thats better? No glue, no joints (except for end caps), that has to be better right? It was the original ID sub design from both HSU/SVS.

As for demand, I of course have no way to answer that. PSA is one of the top brands, if you can't affect opinion, who can?

All I will say is - 'if you build it, they will come'
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post #54 of 77 Old 06-07-2019, 07:09 PM
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Exactly my point. We have a weak, sedentary society. A grown man should be able to lift moderately heavy objects. People throw their backs out doing routine things because we are a weak and sedentary society.



The back is not as fragile as most people think. If you are weak and sedentary and lift something heavy with poor technique, yeah, probably risk injury. Point is, it shouldn't be that big of a deal. It is because we are so weak and sedentary. Strength is healthy and promotes longer life and independence as we age, rather than being frail, weak, and barely able to get on and off a toilet by age 65. My well past retirement age mom can now do 10+ full pushups after just a short time of a little effort. I wonder how many *men* can't do this. Sad if you think about it.
Society is weak and sedentary, no doubt.

If you look at people who live a hard life, e.g. manual labor, they are in much better health as well as having better posture as they havent spent their life slouching in front of tv on a couch or bending down for smartphones and stuffing their faces.

People in Western countries have easier lives and worse health. If they even think about getting fit, they are going to go on a fad diet like low carb/keto, and spend hours on a treadmill, vs lifting weights or doing basic bodyweight exercises which aren't cool.

But I disagree a bit about injury risk. The spinal cord is extremely fragile.
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post #55 of 77 Old 06-07-2019, 07:19 PM
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I can see your point about the back.....I think both sides of the coin can be argued. Back injuries are especially troublesome due to the involvement of all the spinal nerves and such which get pinched and cause a lot of pain and issues for life....screwed up discs either don't heal or take a very long time to do so....so I see where your coming from. However, the back is capable of becoming EXTREMELY strong if carefully and properly trained. Which makes it extremely resistant to injury and not fragile. So again, I can see both sides of the coin.

Agree with you 100% about fad fitness being scam diets and extremely ineffective forms of "exercise".

Also, no, I don't think most men should attempt lifting 120 lb subwoofers. But I think most should be able to.
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post #56 of 77 Old 06-08-2019, 03:48 PM
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I have a 15X13 HT. It's an extra bedroom in my modest home. When running Audyssey, it had me turn down the VTF3-5 down to almost the minimal the volume dial would go to hit 75 db. I ran it with both ports open and bumped the gain on the AVR +3 db. It sounded good. A very experienced friend came in and started walking the room, clapping, reciting a sentence ad nauseam looking for reflection points. He pointed those out where I need acoustic treatment. Then we fired everything up and he heard the sub rip. Immediately he had me plug the 3" port, and I set it back to EQ1. Then we ignored Audyssey, put the gain back to 0 db on the sub in the AVR. Then he had me increase volume on the back of the sub. It now rips, and I mean rips. It should work well for you. The tuning options make it an incredible value. Best of luck.
Interesting. This is *not* how I or many others would have set it up. But if you like the results, I guess that what matters in the end.

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Vizio M75-E1; Oppo 203 universal UHD player; Denon 4300H AVR, Dual PSA S1801's; Monitor Audio Silver RX-6 mains, RX center, and RX surrounds; one pair NHT mini Atmos speakers; Home-built HTPC (Xeon E1230, 16gb RAM, Crucial M500 480gb SSD, GeForce 980Ti, Corsair CX600, CoolerMaster mini-ITX case); Roku Premiere+; Amazon 4K Fire TV
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post #57 of 77 Old 06-08-2019, 05:23 PM
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Originally Posted by sk373 View Post
Interesting. This is *not* how I or many others would have set it up. But if you like the results, I guess that what matters in the end.
Well you haven’t been in the room.

Originally I ran Audyssey with one port opened the way Dr. Hsu says to do it. Actually spoke to him direct and Kevin. Post Audyssey I opened up both ports and EQ2. My friend, in just a few minutes calibrated it, and significantly improved the room and sub. As I said, plugged the 3” port, EQ1, upped the gain. It’s spectacular now. The “friend” could make money as a calibrator for audio and video. One little reference session and he pointed out all the reflection points as well. How you’d set it up is only relevant if you know the room. Exterior walls or interior? Reflection points, acoustics, ceiling height. On and on to the break of dawn. My friend got the most out of the VTF3-5 for MY room. When I add a second sub, omg.

HT 7.1.4: Sony X940E, Marantz SR8012, LR: JBL Studio 580's, C: JBL Studio 520c, Surrounds and Rears: JBL Studio 530's, ATMOS: JBL Studio 210's, Sub: HSU VTF-3 mk5
MB 5.1: Sony 55" X950G, Denon X3500H, LR/Surrounds: JBL Studio 270’s, C: JBL Studio 235c, Sub: HSU VTF-2 mk5
Living Room/Office 5.1: Sony 49" 900E's, HTNT5's with wireless rear channels
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post #58 of 77 Old 06-08-2019, 06:41 PM
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Originally Posted by TommyDeVito View Post
Well you haven’t been in the room.

.
I think he just means the "usual" recommended procedure is to run Audyssey (minimum measurements) a few times - making small adjustments to the Subs gain dial between calibrations - until it comes back with an AVR Sub Trim around -11dB (just shy of its lowest setting), then after running through the full 8 (or whatever) calibration positions, you can add to the sub channel via the AVR's Sub Trim, safely being able to add 5-8dB (ie. an AVR Sub Trim around -6dB). If you still need more output you can then add a a click or 2 to the Subs gain dial.
There are a few reasons this method is often recommended on here
1. You will now have a pretty good idea exactly how "hot" you are running your subs post Audyssey and
2. It's not recommended to have the AVR sub trim at 0dB (and certainly not in the positives) due to the increased chance of clipping the signal. I usually play it safe and recommend definitely no higher than -3dB


have a read here (the whole guide is fantastic!)
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...ences.html#IIC
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TV: Panasonic P65ST60 AVR: Denon 4311ci Speakers: PSA MTM-210C (Centre), PSA MTM-210 (Left & Right), PSA MT-110 (Surrounds) Subwoofers: Dual Seaton SubMersives

Last edited by jamiebosco; 06-08-2019 at 06:48 PM.
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post #59 of 77 Old 06-08-2019, 06:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Boy this thread got sidetracked. 😂
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post #60 of 77 Old 06-08-2019, 07:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Bigbirney View Post
Boy this thread got sidetracked. 😂
ummmm......what do you mean? wasn't your original question in the first post "which 200lb sub is easier for the average man to pickup and carry - one with triangular or flared round ports?"


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TV: Panasonic P65ST60 AVR: Denon 4311ci Speakers: PSA MTM-210C (Centre), PSA MTM-210 (Left & Right), PSA MT-110 (Surrounds) Subwoofers: Dual Seaton SubMersives
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