REW for macOS - How to Setup your Mac for REW - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 20Likes
  • 7 Post By enricoclaudio
  • 5 Post By enricoclaudio
  • 1 Post By enricoclaudio
  • 1 Post By dinamigym
  • 1 Post By enricoclaudio
  • 2 Post By imureh
  • 2 Post By H Stevens
  • 1 Post By Nalleh
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 11 Old 06-24-2019, 02:12 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
enricoclaudio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 5,564
Mentioned: 259 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3650 Post(s)
Liked: 4380
REW for macOS - How to Setup your Mac for REW

Due to the recent increase of interest from Mac users and some current Windows users for REW for macOS, I decided to share my experience and some basic steeps that would lead you to properly setup your MacBook, MacBook Pro, MacBook Air, Mac mini or iMac to run REW. To be honest, there is not too much to be said if you are a Mac user like me but if you are a Windows user thinking on switching to Mac ecosystem or wants to experience REW for macOS, then this guide can help you through the configuration process.

1.- Hardware:

If you are planning on purchasing a Mac computer on the used market to only run REW, make sure you check the “Vintage and Obsolete” Apple list before making any purchase. Apple does not bring support to any hardware after they are part of that list. Meaning, the latest macOS won’t run properly on those models.

https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201624

Personally, I would recommend any 13” or 15” MacBook Pro Retina from 2013 to 2015 as those have HDMI output and USB ports so docking hubs or adapters are not necessary. Same if you have a Mac mini as they have HDMI out and USB ports. If you have a MacBook or MacBook Air, then you would need a Thunderbolt 2 or USB–C hub (depending on the year model) that converts the Thunderbolt 2 or USB-C port to HDMI and USB ports. Same apply for any MacBook Pro 2016 or newer as they only have Thunderbolt 3 (USB-C) ports. For those models, a hub would be necessary.

For Macs with Thunderbolt 1 or 2 port, you can get this adapter to convert the Thunderbolt port to HDMI out:

https://www.amazon.com/AmazonBasics-...&s=electronics

Most Macs with Thunderbolt 1 or 2 port, have at least one USB 2.0 or 3.0 port that you can use to connect your UMIK-1 mic. In case your Mac has not USB port, but it has Thunderbolt 1 or 2, then get this hub:

https://www.amazon.com/gofanco-Displ...-2-spons&psc=1

For Macs with Thunderbolt 3 or USB-C ports only, these include MacBook Pro late-2016 with Touch Bar, you can get this hub:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07PRJJNGF...4-c1ee86d5769a

If you have an iMac from mid-2011 to late-2015, then you would need a Thunderbolt 2 to HDMI adapter like the one posted before as iMacs don’t have HDMI out. If your iMac is from 2017 and up, then you would need a Thunderbolt 3/USB-C to HDMI adapter like this one:

https://www.amazon.com/Adapter-Warrk...-1-spons&psc=1

Some Macs before 2010 have DisplayPort which looks the same as Thunderbolt 1 port. These Macs with DisplayPort do not carry audio over HDMI so they won’t work with REW.

Sometimes you can find very good deals buying a Refurbished Apple Mac directly from the Apple Online Store. Check this link if you are looking for Refurbished or on Clearance Apple Macs:

https://www.apple.com/shop/refurbished/mac


2.- REW for macOS Version and additional drivers/software:

If your Mac is running 10.8.3 OS X Mountain Lion to 10.13 macOS High Sierra, then download REW for macOS 5.19 latest version. You can download it directly from here:

https://www.roomeqwizard.com/install...macos_5_19.dmg

If your Mac is running 10.14 macOS Mojave, then download REW for macOS 5.20 from AV Nirvana Forum. You have to sign up on AV Nirvana in order to be able to download REW V5.20.

https://www.avnirvana.com/resources/...a-downloads.1/

REW for macOS does not need any drivers or additional software. The proper version of REW for macOS is all you need in terms of software to get REW running in your Mac.


3.- Setting Up your Mac and “Audio Midi Setup”:

The beautiful thing about REW for macOS is that it’s truly Plug and Play. After you download the proper REW for macOS version and finish the installation, basically that is all you need to do in terms of software installation. As a safe protocol, after the installation of REW for macOS is done, I would recommend checking a few things before start measuring with REW.

For this tutorial, I'm using a 13" MacBook Pro Retina mid-2014 running macOS 10.14.5 Mojave (latest macOS update)



3.1.- Plug your miniDSP UMIK-1 mic in the USB port of your Mac and connect the Mac HDMI out with a HDMI cable into your receiver or processor designated HDMI input. If you are a Mac user, you will know if your Mac recognizes the receiver/pre pro and UMIK-1 mic. If you are a Windows user and you have not enough experience with macOS ecosystem, then go to System Preferences as showed in this window:

You can access System Preferences by clicking on the System Preferences icon on the "Dock" or clicking on the Apple Logo at the top left of your screen, second option on the drop down menu below "About This Mac".



Now click on "Sound" (speaker icon) and you will see a window like this:

Sound Output window:



Sound Input window:



Go back to System Preferences main menu and click on Displays (screen icon) and you will see a window like this (make sure Mirroring is OFF checking "Use As Separate Display"):




Again, make sure “Mirror Built-IN Retina Display” is unchecked unless you want to see on your TV or projector screen what is happening when taking measurements. The problem with checking “Mirror....” is that if your projector or TV is 4K, then your Retina Display Mac will change from Retina Recommended resolution to native 4K resolution and the text on your Mac screen will look super small.

You can also press "Gather Windows" so you can change resolution or other settings in your TV or projector.



3.2.- Go to Applications/Utilities/Audio Midi Setup.







If your receiver and mic were recognized by your Mac, on the left side of the screen you will see an HDMI device, in my case I have a Denon AVR-X6500H. On Macs without HDMI port, you will see DisplayPort device instead of HDMI device. You will also see your UMIK-1 mic as an available input device.

You would see a window with Input and Output devices. It is very important to check that the sample rate match for both, input and output. The UMIK-1 mic has a fixed sample rate of 48.0KHz so for the output you have to select from the drop down menu "8 channels - 16 bit integer 48.0KHz" or "8 channels - 24 bit integer 48KHz". The UMIK-1 mic is 24 bit/48KHz but selecting the Output as 16 bit/48KHz works the same. The critical factor is the Sample Rate, not the Bit Depth.





Here is the Input window:



Go back to the Output window and press "Configure Speakers", you will see a window like this if 2 ch is selected as default:



From the Speaker "Configuration" drop down menu, select your appropriated speaker setup, in my case is "7.1 Rear Surround" and "Geometric"



After selected, press "Apply" and you are done with Audio Midi Setup configuration.

Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Screen Shot 2019-06-24 at 8.24.10 PM.png
Views:	52
Size:	1.27 MB
ID:	2584084   Click image for larger version

Name:	Screen Shot 2019-06-24 at 8.00.46 PM.png
Views:	60
Size:	1.06 MB
ID:	2584086   Click image for larger version

Name:	Screen Shot 2019-06-24 at 8.01.40 PM.png
Views:	59
Size:	1.07 MB
ID:	2584088   Click image for larger version

Name:	Screen Shot 2019-06-24 at 8.02.17 PM.png
Views:	52
Size:	1.10 MB
ID:	2584090   Click image for larger version

Name:	Screen Shot 2019-06-24 at 8.03.00 PM.png
Views:	58
Size:	732.5 KB
ID:	2584092  

Click image for larger version

Name:	Screen Shot 2019-06-24 at 8.43.47 PM.png
Views:	64
Size:	1.22 MB
ID:	2584098   Click image for larger version

Name:	Screen Shot 2019-06-24 at 8.09.01 PM.png
Views:	57
Size:	1.46 MB
ID:	2584100   Click image for larger version

Name:	Screen Shot 2019-06-24 at 8.04.42 PM.png
Views:	63
Size:	1.24 MB
ID:	2584102   Click image for larger version

Name:	Screen Shot 2019-06-24 at 9.00.35 PM.png
Views:	54
Size:	1.30 MB
ID:	2584106   Click image for larger version

Name:	Screen Shot 2019-06-24 at 8.06.58 PM.png
Views:	58
Size:	1.39 MB
ID:	2584110  

Click image for larger version

Name:	Screen Shot 2019-06-24 at 8.07.34 PM.png
Views:	64
Size:	1.38 MB
ID:	2584112   Click image for larger version

Name:	Screen Shot 2019-06-24 at 10.57.31 PM.png
Views:	58
Size:	1.08 MB
ID:	2584180   Click image for larger version

Name:	Screen Shot 2019-06-24 at 11.15.58 PM.png
Views:	55
Size:	1.33 MB
ID:	2584182   Click image for larger version

Name:	Screen Shot 2019-06-24 at 11.15.44 PM.png
Views:	58
Size:	1.30 MB
ID:	2584184   Click image for larger version

Name:	Screen Shot 2019-06-24 at 11.15.14 PM.png
Views:	63
Size:	1.44 MB
ID:	2584186  


Enrico Castagnetti @ Rythmik Audio - Dialing In Rythmik Audio Subwoofers - REW for macOS
Media Room: Sierra Towers w/RAAL, Horizon w/RAAL, Sierra 2s & Lunas | Rythmik F12SE(x2) + FV25HP | Denon X6500H | Panny 820 + ATV 4K | Bluesound Node 2 | 92" Stewart ST100 | Sony VW295ES |
Desktop: Dynaudio BM5 mkIII | Rythmik L22 | Apogee Quartet | 27" iMac| Bedroom: B&W 685 S2 | Rythmik LVX12 | Marantz SR6013 | Sony X700 + ATV 4K | Sony XBR-65Z9D |

Last edited by enricoclaudio; 06-24-2019 at 10:06 PM.
enricoclaudio is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 11 Old 06-24-2019, 02:13 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
enricoclaudio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 5,564
Mentioned: 259 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3650 Post(s)
Liked: 4380
4.- Setting up REW for macOS Preferences.

Now that we have the Mac recognizing the receiver/processor and the UMIK-1 mic and it's totally configured audio and video wise for REW, we need to configure REW Preferences accordingly.

As of today, the latest version or REW for macOS Mojave is 5.20 Beta 13 and that is the version I'm using for this tutorial.





After REW for macOS is installed, as soon you open it, it should detect your UMIK-1 mic and it's going to ask you if you want to use it as a measurement device. A window like this will pop up:



Then it will ask for the UMIK-1 calibration file:



Look on your Mac for your calibration file and select it. Make sure it's stored in your local SSD or HDD and not on a USB memory stick:



Now that the UMIK-1 is selected, go to REW Preferences to configure OUTPUT and INPUT devices. In this window you can see that the rate is 48KHz, which match with what we selected previously on Audio Midi Setup. For the OUPUT DEVICE select HDMI if your Mac has HDMI port or DisplayPort if you are using an external hub or Thunderbolt to HDMI adapter.



For the OUTPUT select SPEAKER:



If you open the SPEAKER drop down menu, you will see your 7.1 speakers available if you have a 7.1 speaker setup. They will show up labeled by name and not by numbers like they do on REW for Windows.



For "Timing Reference Output" you can use any speaker you want, not the subwoofer (LFE). Most people uses one of the Surround speakers. I always use Main Left (L). Always use the same speaker for all measurements as this is very important at the time of checking Impulse Response overlays.



For the INPUT DEVICE, select UMIK-1 mic from the drop down menu:



This next steep is very important. For the INPUT, you have to select MICROPHONE and NOT Default Input. If you select Default Input, even if in your Mac Preferences Audio settings UMIK-1 is selected as Default Input, the readings from the UMIK-1 mic will be off by about 40dB. This bug only affects Macs running macOS 10.14 Mojave and REW 5.20.



As a last checking steep, go to Preferences "Mic/Meter" and make sure you calibration file shows up:



At this point you are ready to take measurements with your REW for macOS gig. Open Measure window and you will see the window where you can select the speaker you want to measure, the frequency range, and all the common settings we have been using in other versions of REW.



I hope this tutorial help others Mac users or Windows users that want to experience REW for macOS. Please, feel free to post your comments and suggestions to improve this tutorial.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Screen Shot 2019-06-24 at 7.48.28 PM.png
Views:	58
Size:	1.20 MB
ID:	2584124   Click image for larger version

Name:	Screen Shot 2019-06-24 at 7.49.03 PM.png
Views:	55
Size:	1.19 MB
ID:	2584132   Click image for larger version

Name:	Screen Shot 2019-06-24 at 8.10.24 PM.png
Views:	53
Size:	502.4 KB
ID:	2584134   Click image for larger version

Name:	Screen Shot 2019-06-24 at 8.10.32 PM.png
Views:	58
Size:	503.0 KB
ID:	2584136   Click image for larger version

Name:	Screen Shot 2019-06-24 at 8.11.05 PM.png
Views:	60
Size:	718.3 KB
ID:	2584138  

Click image for larger version

Name:	Screen Shot 2019-06-24 at 8.11.32 PM.png
Views:	58
Size:	601.0 KB
ID:	2584152   Click image for larger version

Name:	Screen Shot 2019-06-24 at 8.11.42 PM.png
Views:	54
Size:	595.1 KB
ID:	2584154   Click image for larger version

Name:	Screen Shot 2019-06-24 at 8.12.12 PM.png
Views:	52
Size:	599.3 KB
ID:	2584156   Click image for larger version

Name:	Screen Shot 2019-06-24 at 8.12.24 PM.png
Views:	59
Size:	603.6 KB
ID:	2584158   Click image for larger version

Name:	Screen Shot 2019-06-24 at 8.12.40 PM.png
Views:	57
Size:	596.2 KB
ID:	2584160  

Click image for larger version

Name:	Screen Shot 2019-06-24 at 8.12.50 PM.png
Views:	60
Size:	548.7 KB
ID:	2584162   Click image for larger version

Name:	Screen Shot 2019-06-24 at 8.15.27 PM.png
Views:	52
Size:	652.8 KB
ID:	2584164   Click image for larger version

Name:	Screen Shot 2019-06-24 at 9.42.17 PM.png
Views:	59
Size:	629.2 KB
ID:	2584172   Click image for larger version

Name:	Screen Shot 2019-06-24 at 9.42.30 PM.png
Views:	10
Size:	621.1 KB
ID:	2584174  

Enrico Castagnetti @ Rythmik Audio - Dialing In Rythmik Audio Subwoofers - REW for macOS
Media Room: Sierra Towers w/RAAL, Horizon w/RAAL, Sierra 2s & Lunas | Rythmik F12SE(x2) + FV25HP | Denon X6500H | Panny 820 + ATV 4K | Bluesound Node 2 | 92" Stewart ST100 | Sony VW295ES |
Desktop: Dynaudio BM5 mkIII | Rythmik L22 | Apogee Quartet | 27" iMac| Bedroom: B&W 685 S2 | Rythmik LVX12 | Marantz SR6013 | Sony X700 + ATV 4K | Sony XBR-65Z9D |

Last edited by enricoclaudio; 06-24-2019 at 10:14 PM.
enricoclaudio is offline  
post #3 of 11 Old 06-24-2019, 02:13 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
enricoclaudio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 5,564
Mentioned: 259 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3650 Post(s)
Liked: 4380
Reserved 2
pixphipau likes this.

Enrico Castagnetti @ Rythmik Audio - Dialing In Rythmik Audio Subwoofers - REW for macOS
Media Room: Sierra Towers w/RAAL, Horizon w/RAAL, Sierra 2s & Lunas | Rythmik F12SE(x2) + FV25HP | Denon X6500H | Panny 820 + ATV 4K | Bluesound Node 2 | 92" Stewart ST100 | Sony VW295ES |
Desktop: Dynaudio BM5 mkIII | Rythmik L22 | Apogee Quartet | 27" iMac| Bedroom: B&W 685 S2 | Rythmik LVX12 | Marantz SR6013 | Sony X700 + ATV 4K | Sony XBR-65Z9D |
enricoclaudio is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #4 of 11 Old 06-25-2019, 08:13 AM
Member
 
pixphipau's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 126
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 70 Post(s)
Liked: 36
Thanks for this, super helpful! Question i have a 5.1.4 atmos setup how would i configure that?
pixphipau is offline  
post #5 of 11 Old 06-25-2019, 08:15 AM
Rise & Grind
 
dinamigym's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: SW Burb of Chicago
Posts: 472
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 295 Post(s)
Liked: 277
Enrico, you are the man! Thanks a ton! Very helpful.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
enricoclaudio likes this.

Trinnov Altitude 16, Magico A3, Magico ACC, Magico A1s, Dual Rythmik FV25HP
Amps- ATI AT523NC, AT524NC, AT528NC
Kaleidescape Terra Server/Strato, Oppo UDP-203, Apple TV4k, XFinity X1
Sony VPL-VW5000, 136" 2.35:1 Stewart Studiotek 100 screen, Lumagen Pro 4242
dinamigym is online now  
post #6 of 11 Old 06-25-2019, 10:12 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
enricoclaudio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 5,564
Mentioned: 259 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3650 Post(s)
Liked: 4380
Quote:
Originally Posted by pixphipau View Post
Thanks for this, super helpful! Question i have a 5.1.4 atmos setup how would i configure that?
Set the Speaker Configuration as 5.1. You can’t measure ATMOS speakers with REW. You can measure up to 7.1 with REW (8 channels).
pixphipau likes this.

Enrico Castagnetti @ Rythmik Audio - Dialing In Rythmik Audio Subwoofers - REW for macOS
Media Room: Sierra Towers w/RAAL, Horizon w/RAAL, Sierra 2s & Lunas | Rythmik F12SE(x2) + FV25HP | Denon X6500H | Panny 820 + ATV 4K | Bluesound Node 2 | 92" Stewart ST100 | Sony VW295ES |
Desktop: Dynaudio BM5 mkIII | Rythmik L22 | Apogee Quartet | 27" iMac| Bedroom: B&W 685 S2 | Rythmik LVX12 | Marantz SR6013 | Sony X700 + ATV 4K | Sony XBR-65Z9D |
enricoclaudio is offline  
post #7 of 11 Old 06-25-2019, 11:41 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
imureh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 4,291
Mentioned: 198 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2676 Post(s)
Liked: 3206
This should me made into a sticky! Way to go bro! You will make me buy a Mac now just for this....
enricoclaudio and pixphipau like this.

Subwoofers: Dual Rythmik FV18s Rev2 with Paper cone, BOSS Platform mini riser
Speakers: PSA MTM-210 L/C/R - Klipsch 250S Surrounds, PSA MT 110sr Rear Surrounds, 4 x SVS Prime Elevation for Atmos
Video: Epson PowerLite Home Cinema 6500 UB; Room: 2100 cuft sealed on suspended floor
Receiver & Players: Denon X4400H, Oppo UDP-203, Roku Ultra. Apple TV, Minidsp 2X4 HD
imureh is online now  
post #8 of 11 Old 06-25-2019, 09:31 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
confinoj's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Shaker Heights, OH
Posts: 1,936
Mentioned: 23 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1206 Post(s)
Liked: 1009
Thanks. I switched from using REW on windows to Mac a couple years ago and found a similar experience. It was so much easier to set up I thought I was missing something. The only thing I have found is that I have to keep master volume a bit lower than in windows as my umik clips easier. Anyone else find this? Should I decrease the input gain on mic?

LG OLED65C7P (Chad B Calibrated) | Denon X4300H | Tivo Roamio OTA | Nvidia Shield | ATV 4K | Oppo UDP-203 | Plex server
5.2.4 | Front Klipsch RP-160M x2 | Center Klipsch RP-450C | Surrounds Klipsch RP-150M x2 | Atmos Klipsch RP-140SA x 4 | Subs SVS PC-4000 x 2
confinoj is online now  
post #9 of 11 Old 06-25-2019, 10:09 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
enricoclaudio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 5,564
Mentioned: 259 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3650 Post(s)
Liked: 4380
Quote:
Originally Posted by confinoj View Post
Thanks. I switched from using REW on windows to Mac a couple years ago and found a similar experience. It was so much easier to set up I thought I was missing something. The only thing I have found is that I have to keep master volume a bit lower than in windows as my umik clips easier. Anyone else find this? Should I decrease the input gain on mic?
To be honest? I have never used REW on Windows so cannot tell but I have the input gain set at -12dB on REW and Master Volume on my Denon X6500H and Emotiva XMC-1 around -25dB, sometimes up to -22dB.

Enrico Castagnetti @ Rythmik Audio - Dialing In Rythmik Audio Subwoofers - REW for macOS
Media Room: Sierra Towers w/RAAL, Horizon w/RAAL, Sierra 2s & Lunas | Rythmik F12SE(x2) + FV25HP | Denon X6500H | Panny 820 + ATV 4K | Bluesound Node 2 | 92" Stewart ST100 | Sony VW295ES |
Desktop: Dynaudio BM5 mkIII | Rythmik L22 | Apogee Quartet | 27" iMac| Bedroom: B&W 685 S2 | Rythmik LVX12 | Marantz SR6013 | Sony X700 + ATV 4K | Sony XBR-65Z9D |
enricoclaudio is offline  
post #10 of 11 Old 06-26-2019, 04:27 AM
Senior Member
 
H Stevens's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 321
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 163 Post(s)
Liked: 114
I started here when I began:

https://www.minidsp.com/applications...-1-hdmi-on-mac

Thanks for taking the time Enrico putting this together, it will help a lot of people.
enricoclaudio and pixphipau like this.
H Stevens is offline  
post #11 of 11 Old 06-26-2019, 06:09 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Nalleh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Norway
Posts: 3,452
Mentioned: 274 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2403 Post(s)
Liked: 3132
Awsome guide Enrico I have used Mac for years, but started with Windows, and that was a nightmare every time.
Mac is flawless
enricoclaudio likes this.

Dual Atmos Receivers - Atmos 13.1.8/DTS X 9.1.8/Auro 3D 13.1 - Denon AVCX8500H+AVRX7200WA - Klipsch+KEF - 6xSI18" - 8xJBL 12" BOSS - 4xJBL 12" w/SLAPS M12" VNF - 3x2 stacked Crowson MA - 4xBK-LFE - 6xNU6K(fan&trig mod) - Minidsp 10x10HD - Oppo UDP203 - XBox OneX - Apple TV4K - JVC RS600 Dreamscreen V2 120"- Philips 65OLED873.
Nalleh’s HT
Nalleh is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply Subwoofers, Bass, and Transducers

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off