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post #1 of 19 Old 07-08-2019, 11:17 AM - Thread Starter
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2 SVS PC4000 to replace 1 Monolith 15

I already have a Monolith 15 sub and I want to get another but the size (15X12) of my room will not support it. So I am thinking about going with two SVS PC4000. My audio room is a bedroom in our house that my wife of 32 years has graciously allowed me to use as my man cave. When I received the Monolith I had to do a sub crawl and the placement wind of being along the 15' foot wall half way. I wanted to place the sub in the corner of the room behind my Mirage OMD-28's but that did not work. Putting another Monolith on the opposite side of the room will no work because there is an accordion style closet door.

All my research has taught me that two subs are better then one. First how will one SVS PC4000 stack up against one Monolith 15? When going with two SVS PC4000 will I have to still do a sub crawl or can I place one in each corner behind each Mirage OMD-28.

I appreciate any all input.

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post #2 of 19 Old 07-08-2019, 11:34 AM
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Two subs will give you about 4db advantage. I’m not sure if spending that much money on PC4000 upgrade is going to be worth it. If I was going to spend that kind of money for an upgrade, I would make it count.
You also seem to be constraint by size.
Perhaps you should seriously look into the brand new “compact” captivator 2400 XS. If it fits your room, I’m not sure you can do better given the size constraints. That sub is tuned to 10Hz and a couple of that in your small room should be a very worthy upgrade.

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post #3 of 19 Old 07-08-2019, 11:43 AM
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Absolutely do a sub crawl again, or better yet invest $100 into a UMIK mic and download REW software and measure many locations. When they are set up properly and in optimal locations you should net 6db adding the second sub woofer of a same make / model and 3db more adding a third. Of course in a location that is not great you may get less out put than that.

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post #4 of 19 Old 07-08-2019, 11:50 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by CallingMrBenzo View Post
Absolutely do a sub crawl again, or better yet invest $100 into a UMIK mic and download REW software and measure many locations. When they are set up properly and in optimal locations you should net 6db adding the second sub woofer of a same make / model and 3db more adding a third. Of course in a location that is not great you may get less out put than that.
I have a UMIK mic with my Arcam AVR 850 using Dirac Live software to adjust all my speakers to include the Monolith 15.

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post #5 of 19 Old 07-08-2019, 11:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by tojo_m View Post
Two subs will give you about 4db advantage. I’m not sure if spending that much money on PC4000 upgrade is going to be worth it. If I was going to spend that kind of money for an upgrade, I would make it count.
You also seem to be constraint by size.
Perhaps you should seriously look into the brand new “compact” captivator 2400 XS. If it fits your room, I’m not sure you can do better given the size constraints. That sub is tuned to 10Hz and a couple of that in your small room should be a very worthy upgrade.
While I can afford the two PC4000's part of me asks should I spend that much and will it be worth it sound wise. I have owned the Monolith 15 since June of 2018 and I hope I can get $800 - $900 for it on the used market.

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Originally Posted by grunt66 View Post
I have a UMIK mic with my Arcam AVR 850 using Dirac Live software to adjust all my speakers to include the Monolith 15.
Great! Now download Room Eq Wizard, your gear is part of the equation. The room makes the biggest impact on the sound, REW will help you learn your room. When I went with dual subwoofers It was a big disappointment at first. The locations that I wanted to work out didn't. I only got a bump in a 5 hz range with one location between 10 and 15 hz, I had to experiment until I found the spot, when I did +6db from 8hz to 100hz and it was magical!
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post #7 of 19 Old 07-08-2019, 01:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grunt66 View Post
I already have a Monolith 15 sub and I want to get another but the size (15X12) of my room will not support it. So I am thinking about going with two SVS PC4000. My audio room is a bedroom in our house that my wife of 32 years has graciously allowed me to use as my man cave. When I received the Monolith I had to do a sub crawl and the placement wind of being along the 15' foot wall half way. I wanted to place the sub in the corner of the room behind my Mirage OMD-28's but that did not work. Putting another Monolith on the opposite side of the room will no work because there is an accordion style closet door.

All my research has taught me that two subs are better then one. First how will one SVS PC4000 stack up against one Monolith 15? When going with two SVS PC4000 will I have to still do a sub crawl or can I place one in each corner behind each Mirage OMD-28.

I appreciate any all input.

Hi,

A lot depends on why you want to add a second subwoofer. In theory, dual subs will help to even-out the frequency response, but I agree with other posters who have recommended that you be prepared to try different locations and measure the response. That will give you the best results.

I am going to link Audioholics reviews of both subwoofers (The PB4000 and the PC4000 are essentially identical in performance) so that you can compare them for yourself. The short answer is that the Monolith 15 and the PC4000 are very similar down to about 16Hz. (I am looking at both sets of measurements in two-port mode.) The PC4000 will have about a 2db advantage at 16Hz and the Mono 15 will have about an 8db advantage at 12.5Hz.

https://www.audioholics.com/subwoofe...s-and-analysis

https://www.audioholics.com/subwoofe...0/measurements

Two identical subwoofers will give you an average of 6db more output (not 4db) averaged across the entire frequency range of the subwoofers. It is an average because room modes, due to subwoofer location, will cause random peaks and dips in the frequency response. So, at some frequencies the gain may be greater than 6db, and at other frequencies less.

FWIW, it really is usually a benefit to add a second identical subwoofer, particularly if you are willing to invest a little effort in positioning the subs, and in making sure that they are helping to compensate for room modes.

Regards,
Mike
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post #8 of 19 Old 07-08-2019, 01:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Hi,

A lot depends on why you want to add a second subwoofer. In theory, dual subs will help to even-out the frequency response, but I agree with other posters who have recommended that you be prepared to try different locations and measure the response. That will give you the best results.

I am going to link Audioholics reviews of both subwoofers (The PB4000 and the PC4000 are essentially identical in performance) so that you can compare them for yourself. The short answer is that the Monolith 15 and the PC4000 are very similar down to about 16Hz. (I am looking at both sets of measurements in two-port mode.) The PC4000 will have about a 2db advantage at 16Hz and the Mono 15 will have about an 8db advantage at 12.5Hz.

https://www.audioholics.com/subwoofe...s-and-analysis

https://www.audioholics.com/subwoofe...0/measurements

Two identical subwoofers will give you an average of 6db more output (not 4db) averaged across the entire frequency range of the subwoofers. It is an average because room modes, due to subwoofer location, will cause random peaks and dips in the frequency response. So, at some frequencies the gain may be greater than 6db, and at other frequencies less.

FWIW, it really is usually a benefit to add a second identical subwoofer, particularly if you are willing to invest a little effort in positioning the subs, and in making sure that they are helping to compensate for room modes.


Regards,
Mike

The short answer for wanting two subs is to even out the sound I am hearing from the sub. Presently the sub is to the right of me and I can tell the sound from the sub is to the right while listening to music. Hopefully by adding another sub the sound will be even and sound like it is coming straight at me. I do more listening to music (70%) then movies (30 %). The output of the Monolith 15 is great and I do not need more volume.

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post #9 of 19 Old 07-08-2019, 03:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grunt66 View Post
The short answer for wanting two subs is to even out the sound I am hearing from the sub. Presently the sub is to the right of me and I can tell the sound from the sub is to the right while listening to music. Hopefully by adding another sub the sound will be even and sound like it is coming straight at me. I do more listening to music (70%) then movies (30 %). The output of the Monolith 15 is great and I do not need more volume.

Okay, I understand! I'm also a little bit susceptible to bass localization, so I know what you are trying to accomplish. Well, if you like the sound signature of the Mono 15, and have enough output, but can't accommodate a second one due to the footprint, then I would probably consider a a pair of Rythmik ported subs. I would stay with ported in order to get the <50Hz and <30Hz SPL, and the low-bass tactile response you are used to.

But, I would consider a pair of Rythmik subs because they will have a sound signature that is similar to the Monolith's. The SVS subs will have a little deeper/thicker tone. Since you say that you are 70/30 music to movies, I might stay with the slightly clearer sound signature that you are already used to, and a pair of Rythmiks should be excellent for that.

My personal choice in this case would be a pair of FV15HP's. You might be able to get by with less, but I would always advise people to have more bass (and especially low-frequency) output than they think they will need, in order to avoid future upgrades. Two FV15HP's would give you excellent overall performance at a lower price than the dual PC4000's. They have a little bit bigger footprint than the PC4000's, but they are much smaller than the Mono 15.

They are 18" wide by 24" deep by 24" high, although the grille and heat sink on the back add another couple of inches. They can, however, be turned sideways if necessary. (They will operate perfectly well no matter which direction they are facing, just as the down-firing PC4000's will.)

That's my recommendation, and I would try to make that size work. Cabinet volume is important for low-frequency performance. But, if you decide that you still can't accommodate the FV15HP's, then I might give some consideration to the Rythmik LVX12's. Two of those might give you sufficient output in your smaller size room, although I do believe in some degree of overkill when possible.

I should also clarify the fact that I personally like the sound signature of SVS subs, but my use of them is exclusively for movies. I like the slightly deeper-toned subs for movies. But, where someone else is already accustomed to a slightly lighter/clearer sound, for a primarily music application, then I think it is wise to consider Rythmik subs. They are specifically known for having a lighter/clearer sound signature.

I hope this helps!

Regards,
Mike

GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #10 of 19 Old 07-08-2019, 04:06 PM
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That's a small room, I don't see why you would need that much horsepower (2 PC4000's) but need and want are two different things. If you feel that dual subs would be beneficial to you then maybe consider dual PC2000's. They are excellent subs with more than enough power for that room and you can put them in the corners etc. taking up very little real estate in the room.
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post #11 of 19 Old 07-08-2019, 04:55 PM - Thread Starter
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That's a small room, I don't see why you would need that much horsepower (2 PC4000's) but need and want are two different things. If you feel that dual subs would be beneficial to you then maybe consider dual PC2000's. They are excellent subs with more than enough power for that room and you can put them in the corners etc. taking up very little real estate in the room.
As my wife will tell you I seem to do things in access. When looking at the Monolith I could have went with the Monolith 12 but no I went with the Monolith 15. It sticks out like sore thumb in my room but even my wife would agree that she liked the bass it provides. We are both in our 50's and when I played some Sir Mix-a-lot Posse on Broadway it immediately put a smile on her face. Funny I looked at the PC2000's but immediately gravitated towards the PC4000's.
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post #12 of 19 Old 07-08-2019, 04:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Okay, I understand! I'm also a little bit susceptible to bass localization, so I know what you are trying to accomplish. Well, if you like the sound signature of the Mono 15, and have enough output, but can't accommodate a second one due to the footprint, then I would probably consider a a pair of Rythmik ported subs. I would stay with ported in order to get the <50Hz and <30Hz SPL, and the low-bass tactile response you are used to.

But, I would consider a pair of Rythmik subs because they will have a sound signature that is similar to the Monolith's. The SVS subs will have a little deeper/thicker tone. Since you say that you are 70/30 music to movies, I might stay with the slightly clearer sound signature that you are already used to, and a pair of Rythmiks should be excellent for that.

My personal choice in this case would be a pair of FV15HP's. You might be able to get by with less, but I would always advise people to have more bass (and especially low-frequency) output than they think they will need, in order to avoid future upgrades. Two FV15HP's would give you excellent overall performance at a lower price than the dual PC4000's. They have a little bit bigger footprint than the PC4000's, but they are much smaller than the Mono 15.

They are 18" wide by 24" deep by 24" high, although the grille and heat sink on the back add another couple of inches. They can, however, be turned sideways if necessary. (They will operate perfectly well no matter which direction they are facing, just as the down-firing PC4000's will.)

That's my recommendation, and I would try to make that size work. Cabinet volume is important for low-frequency performance. But, if you decide that you still can't accommodate the FV15HP's, then I might give some consideration to the Rythmik LVX12's. Two of those might give you sufficient output in your smaller size room, although I do believe in some degree of overkill when possible.

I should also clarify the fact that I personally like the sound signature of SVS subs, but my use of them is exclusively for movies. I like the slightly deeper-toned subs for movies. But, where someone else is already accustomed to a slightly lighter/clearer sound, for a primarily music application, then I think it is wise to consider Rythmik subs. They are specifically known for having a lighter/clearer sound signature.

I hope this helps!

Regards,
Mike
I will give them a look. I am dealing a 20" max on the left side of the room because of a accordion style closet and my gun safe. The wife will not let me put the gun safe in the master bedroom.
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post #13 of 19 Old 07-08-2019, 05:31 PM
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You need to look into your settings and placement. Done well, you shouldn't be able to localize the sub in the room. The Monolith sub should have the capability to completely overwhelm that size room, so maybe you need to reign it in a bit.

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post #14 of 19 Old 07-09-2019, 07:27 AM
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Curios. I am in a similar position, I have two older Elemental Designs e3a 12" subs, I am thinking a huge single might be a good upgrade.
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post #15 of 19 Old 07-12-2019, 07:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grunt66 View Post
As my wife will tell you I seem to do things in access. When looking at the Monolith I could have went with the Monolith 12 but no I went with the Monolith 15. It sticks out like sore thumb in my room but even my wife would agree that she liked the bass it provides. We are both in our 50's and when I played some Sir Mix-a-lot Posse on Broadway it immediately put a smile on her face. Funny I looked at the PC2000's but immediately gravitated towards the PC4000's.
I added a 2nd PC12 Plus cylinder in my theater and it really improved the LFE, so I'd say go for it. If I had it to do over right now, I'd get twin PC4000's for sure. I've had SVS cylinder subs for 14 + years now. Love'em ! And two subs definitely evened out the bass in my room.
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post #16 of 19 Old 07-12-2019, 08:36 AM
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The cylinder subs are always a good option for opening up placement options. That's how I wound up with dual PC-4000s. The advantage of well placed duals will often outweigh poorly placed but more potent single sub in terms of overall frequency response. Agree with others that dual PC-4000s in that size room is probably overkill but this is AVS so that word really has no meaning. PC-2000s would work well too. If you got used to and enjoy the deep extension of the Mono 15 it may be hard to go down a level though. The 4000 series is not as good a value compared to the Mono but similar performance ballpark.
The PC-4000 is down a little compared to the PB-4000 in terms of both extension (13hz vs 15hz) and output (probably a couple db) so the mono 15 probably has a little advantage but unlikely to be noticed especially with duals other than just different sound signatures.

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post #17 of 19 Old 07-13-2019, 11:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tojo_m View Post
Two &#115;ub&#115; will give you about 4db advantage. I’m not &#115;ure if &#115;pending that much money on PC4000 upgrade i&#115; going to be worth it. If I wa&#115; going to &#115;pend that kind of money for an upgrade, I would make it count.
You al&#115;o &#115;eem to be con&#115;traint by &#115;ize.
Perhap&#115; you &#115;hould &#115;eriou&#115;ly look into the brand new “compact” captivator 2400 X&#83;. If it fit&#115; your room, I’m not &#115;ure you can do better given the &#115;ize con&#115;traint&#115;. That &#115;ub i&#115; tuned to 10Hz and a couple of that in your &#115;mall room &#115;hould be a very worthy upgrade.
I like thi&#115; option, that'&#115; totally what I would do.

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post #18 of 19 Old Yesterday, 12:07 AM
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how big is your closet? can you fit a sub? I think you have your settings off if you can tell where the sub is...I have a sub 5ft away and no clue its there. in my office I have a sub under my desk next to my feet and no clue. but Im not trying to talk ya out of dual subs...go for it, the pc4000 might allow more places to put em.

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What about a couple of smaller sealed subs? 2 x SB3000, or 2 x SB4000, or 2 x HSU ULS-15 MK2s?

Tighter bass with plenty of output. The HSUs are a 15 inch sealed driver and are very manageable size wise.
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