The Tactile Response Thread for BASS :)) - Page 109 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #3241 of 4173 Old 05-18-2020, 06:21 AM
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post #3242 of 4173 Old 05-18-2020, 08:04 PM - Thread Starter
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I know I’m getting a little bit of air leak around the valve stem area on my fatter standard bell tubes because they don’t air up totally even all the way around. Some of my 9 tubes are better than the others as far as the uniformity and the smaller diameter around the stem area. Eve though I have them taped on the top to stick to the platform, I KNOW some air is getting through in these areas. The seal on the bottom with double sided tape and painters plastic is good though. I flipped my platforms up today to check and sure enough these areas are just not in contact with the platform, even with the super sticky tape. It’s just too narrow in these areas on some of them. I’m sure the weight helps close down the gap, but I know it’s not a totally good seal.

That said, I LOVE the feel of these fatter Walmart tubes compared to the Goodyears and the ones I had before that, even with some air leakage. SO, I just went ahead and ordered some of those Maxxis fats like Nalleh is using and Magly showed the other day. From the pics that Nalleh showed with not much air in them, I’m thinking it should totally fix the the squeezed down looking areas that are way out of uniformity. PLUS, I just gotta know I think I’m really gonna like more travel that they’ll give and also since I loved the diff of my current compared to the one my previous smaller ones.

Hopefully they won’t take forever to get here. I just ordered direct from Maxxis. They don’t seem to be the easiest tubes to find with the right valves.

@Nalleh - you still liking a bit under 1lb of air in each? Last I heard I think you said you added a bit more and was really loving it. But it was still under 1lbs, or at least your particular gauge wasn’t reading over that.

Just curious.
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post #3243 of 4173 Old 05-18-2020, 08:34 PM
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I think a better way of asking the question is "How high off the floor is the tube raising the platform?" That would be something that would be easy to measure and standardize, rather than small units of air pressure.
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post #3244 of 4173 Old 05-18-2020, 09:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trhought View Post
Good questions. As I ponder this, it makes me wonder "how sealed does a cabinet have to be before we consider it sealed". Is a gradual pressure loss over 30 seconds considered "sealed enough" in traditional speaker design. I don't think I've ever seen any data on this, but the primary purpose of sealing is to basically isolate the back wave from the front wave to prevent SPL cancellation. And, these waves are happening in milliseconds. So, it probably doesn't have to be a perfect seal for a "sealed" cabinet to perform near it's optimum.

Having said all that, for my HB, I do "seal" the bottom of my tubes with double sided tape and mylar from an old windsurfing sail (mylar is a plastic and mine is about the thickness of a transparency slide that was used on overhead projectors many years ago). However, the tops of my tubes that are against the plywood aren't sealed so I'm sure there's some leakage there.

Am I getting burping also...probably so during those hard transients. Can I feel the burping or does it make a difference. I'm not sure, but it happens so quickly and so violently that my perception of any effects due to 'leakage' may be getting masked by the overall experience and my system restores to equilibrium within about 30 seconds or so.

But, your question is a good one....if I would perfectly seal my setup, would the transient response be affected for those 30 seconds when equilibrium was upset after a hard transient. And, would my perfectly sealed HB actually hinder the TR capability as you originally were asking about due to the static offset of the driver that happens by just sitting down on top of the platform.

It could probably be measured easy enough by testing the extreme boundaries. I'm thinking of a 1/4" hole purposely made in the HB cabinet (like a hole in the plywood top of my cavity) with the ability of closing and opening that hole. Then demo a few favorite bass scenes that you know caused burping in the past. One demo with the hole wide open, and another demo with the hole closed and see if a difference can be felt and measured using your Qvibe before and after that hard transient event.

Having said that, I'm thinking some leakage may be desirable to avoid the static driver offset that does happen when first sitting on top of the platform.

Just some random thoughts...

I wonder if you could use some kind of a check valve. It would allow the column to fill back up quickly or instantly, but seal and remain pressurized.
Or maybe I’m not fully understanding here?
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post #3245 of 4173 Old 05-19-2020, 05:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trhought View Post
"how sealed does a cabinet have to be before we consider it sealed". Is a gradual pressure loss over 30 seconds considered "sealed enough" in traditional speaker design.
30 seconds is a LONG time when you're dealing with sound. A great experiment (which it wouldn't surprise me to learn has been done) would be to take a confirmed sealed sub and drill 1/16 inch (or smaller) holes in the cabinet and measure the difference as you drill more (or bigger) holes.
It is, however, probably more important for sound reproduction than it is for tickling your butt.
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post #3246 of 4173 Old 05-19-2020, 06:45 AM
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It won't be a gradual pressure loss, it will just behave as a leaky enclosure which would eventually turn into an aperiodic enclosure (which, to some extent, can be modelled)
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post #3247 of 4173 Old 05-19-2020, 10:39 AM
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I've never built a sealed sub before, but I seem to recall reading that those who do build sealed subs often times create a small hole in the enclosure. Not sure if that's accurate or not or what purpose it serves but that is what I recall.
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post #3248 of 4173 Old 05-19-2020, 11:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Polyrythm1k View Post
I wonder if you could use some kind of a check valve. It would allow the column to fill back up quickly or instantly, but seal and remain pressurized.
Or maybe I’m not fully understanding here?
Good thought.....with HB applications, fortunately, there's just as much fun with vacuum inside the chamber as there is with pressure. Unfortunately, a checkvalve that allows the column to fill back up will also lose vacuum. With HB, the pressure/vacuum levels are relatively small and the game becomes more about preserving that pressure/vacuum as much as possible though good sealing techniques.
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post #3249 of 4173 Old 05-19-2020, 11:59 AM
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Sorry if this is not the right place to ask this question, but has anyone in this thread done a direct comparison in tactile response between similar ported and sealed subs? Lets say you have a ported 18" or whatever size sub and a sealed sub of the same size. Both are set to produce the same level of output. It is commonly mentioned on this forum that the ported version will still provide more tactice response than the sealed. Does anyone have any firsthand experience showing this to be true?

Front: Polk S55
Center: Polk S30
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Sub: P̶L̶-̶2̶0̶0̶I̶I̶ | (̶2̶)̶ ̶F̶V̶X̶1̶2̶ | V1812
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post #3250 of 4173 Old 05-19-2020, 01:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by badtlc View Post
has anyone in this thread done a direct comparison in tactile response between similar ported and sealed subs?
Not similar sealed/ported comparison but this gives you an idea. Have fun reading

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...-response.html
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post #3251 of 4173 Old 05-19-2020, 02:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
Not similar sealed/ported comparison but this gives you an idea. Have fun reading

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...-response.html



That was a good read. Thank you.

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post #3252 of 4173 Old 05-20-2020, 07:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trhought View Post
Good thought.....with HB applications, fortunately, there's just as much fun with vacuum inside the chamber as there is with pressure. Unfortunately, a checkvalve that allows the column to fill back up will also lose vacuum. With HB, the pressure/vacuum levels are relatively small and the game becomes more about preserving that pressure/vacuum as much as possible though good sealing techniques.

Thanks Tim. That makes sense. When I initially read about leak down during transients, it seemed like it might be more important to maintain pressure but your description is pretty clear. I’m still using a direct mount. I removed the feet from the couch and installed ISO’s at the four corners and around the driver. I am using a tube for lift, and HB while the ISO’s seem to be good for stability/damping. It’s fun.
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post #3253 of 4173 Old 05-21-2020, 04:32 PM
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Finally have everything set and decided to watch a movie with BEQ. I have to thank Aron for all the help, I also have to say that I was also rather skeptical on what a mini riser Boss would do considering I am using Infinity 1262's ( 3 under sofa 1 under love seat 2 per channel on nu6000 ). Well I am 100% convinced I will never watch another movie without it. The movie I chose was Twister, seen it many times even with 4 18's its okay but nothing to get excited about but now I can say the same movie with BEQ unbelievable some of the tornado scenes and even more so near the end with the F5 my whole sofa was wobbling/ shaking it was like being in the movie incredible!! Wish I would have done this sooner!!!
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SUBS:SI HST-18's 8cuft Dual Opposed cabinet w/ Bossobass A14K, 2 SI DS4's each in 7cuft Sealed cabinet w/ Bossobass IT-8000, 4 Infinity 1262's HB and 2 JBL's HB both pwrd by nu6000

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post #3254 of 4173 Old 05-21-2020, 04:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SBuger View Post
I know I’m getting a little bit of air leak around the valve stem area on my fatter standard bell tubes because they don’t air up totally even all the way around. Some of my 9 tubes are better than the others as far as the uniformity and the smaller diameter around the stem area. Eve though I have them taped on the top to stick to the platform, I KNOW some air is getting through in these areas. The seal on the bottom with double sided tape and painters plastic is good though. I flipped my platforms up today to check and sure enough these areas are just not in contact with the platform, even with the super sticky tape. It’s just too narrow in these areas on some of them. I’m sure the weight helps close down the gap, but I know it’s not a totally good seal.

That said, I LOVE the feel of these fatter Walmart tubes compared to the Goodyears and the ones I had before that, even with some air leakage. SO, I just went ahead and ordered some of those Maxxis fats like Nalleh is using and Magly showed the other day. From the pics that Nalleh showed with not much air in them, I’m thinking it should totally fix the the squeezed down looking areas that are way out of uniformity. PLUS, I just gotta know I think I’m really gonna like more travel that they’ll give and also since I loved the diff of my current compared to the one my previous smaller ones.

Hopefully they won’t take forever to get here. I just ordered direct from Maxxis. They don’t seem to be the easiest tubes to find with the right valves.

@Nalleh - you still liking a bit under 1lb of air in each? Last I heard I think you said you added a bit more and was really loving it. But it was still under 1lbs, or at least your particular gauge wasn’t reading over that.

Just curious.
Yup, still loving them at probably ~1 psi. My gauge only register down to ~3 psi, so i don’t know for sure, but like i said: judging from the time it took to inflate them to that 3 psi, it has to be 1 psi max.
I think you will love the Maxxis tubes, the are much more uniform in shape, and seems much better quality.
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post #3255 of 4173 Old 05-22-2020, 05:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
Not similar sealed/ported comparison but this gives you an idea. Have fun reading

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...-response.html

so reading through these experiments again I realized this is just tactile response with a sub at the MLP. If you have a setup where your subs will always be at least 8' away, would sealed subs provide similar levels of tactile response as ported at the same SPL level?

Front: Polk S55
Center: Polk S30
Rear: Polk S10
Sub: P̶L̶-̶2̶0̶0̶I̶I̶ | (̶2̶)̶ ̶F̶V̶X̶1̶2̶ | V1812
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post #3256 of 4173 Old 05-22-2020, 06:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalleh View Post
Yup, still loving them at probably ~1 psi. My gauge only register down to ~3 psi, so i don’t know for sure, but like i said: judging from the time it took to inflate them to that 3 psi, it has to be 1 psi max.
I think you will love the Maxxis tubes, the are much more uniform in shape, and seems much better quality.

Been reading some of your posts concerning the inner tubes. I bought some off of e-bay for 18 for 4 of the 16" not exactly uniform. First question what is a better 16" inner tube? The second question when I first started I read fill the tubes to 6 - 7psi so I went with 6 now I am reading that 1-3 is preferred any comments please?
While mine may have too much pressure its still nuts but this is avs no such thing as too much!

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SUBS:SI HST-18's 8cuft Dual Opposed cabinet w/ Bossobass A14K, 2 SI DS4's each in 7cuft Sealed cabinet w/ Bossobass IT-8000, 4 Infinity 1262's HB and 2 JBL's HB both pwrd by nu6000
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post #3257 of 4173 Old 05-22-2020, 06:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Cichlid109 View Post
Been reading some of your posts concerning the inner tubes. I bought some off of e-bay for 18 for 4 of the 16" not exactly uniform. First question what is a better 16" inner tube? The second question when I first started I read fill the tubes to 6 - 7psi so I went with 6 now I am reading that 1-3 is preferred any comments please?
While mine may have too much pressure its still nuts but this is avs no such thing as too much!
The point of the fat tubes is less pressure and more travel. You can’t use 1-3 psi on those smaller tubes.

If you use small tubes( ~2"), then as you say you need to inflate them more to get them of the iso’s/ground/driver flange. So you end up with more pressure. They will be more damped, but harder= less travel.

Don’t know about 16" tubes, as i had to have bigger diameter(26"), because my JBL’s are close together.

And BTW, i haven’t read anyone using 6-7 psi, that sound way too much/hard. Try 4-5psi. Unless you end up on the floor

Anyway the pressures used is individual, and you need to test what works for you. What other use are just guidelines, and depends on weight, nr of tubes and driver, size of tubes, floor, etc.
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post #3258 of 4173 Old 05-22-2020, 07:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by badtlc View Post
so reading through these experiments again I realized this is just tactile response with a sub at the MLP. If you have a setup where your subs will always be at least 8' away, would sealed subs provide similar levels of tactile response as ported at the same SPL level?

Since you’re talking about a measure of spl, then I’d say yes. The problem is how many sealed subs it takes to do the same thing.
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post #3259 of 4173 Old 05-22-2020, 09:08 AM
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Well, I finally finished the proof of concept build of the "Mega MA" I had been planning to build with the big 12W7 motor that I managed to lose, so I used a JBL instead. So the general concept is to have a top plate and a bottom plate, where the voice coil is attached to one plate and the motor assembly is attached to the other. The two plates are separated by springs which support the load and center the voice coil within the gap, allowing travel in each direction, with top plate excursion limited by motor excursion and/or spring travel. Top plate excursion matches motor excursion 1:1 due to the mechanical coupling of the two, so even in the case of a humble JBL motor, the peak-to-peak excursion potential is at least 24mm, assuming the springs allow it and the motor strength is enough to push it there.

For this reason, I chose springs which are almost 2" uncompressed, and 1" when compressed to solid, with a specified travel of 23mm. The springs I chose also have a spring rate of 6.5lbs/mm, so with 4 springs in parallel the net spring rate is 26lbs/mm, which means a nominal load of 300lbs will compress things by 11.5mm and bring the springs pretty much to dead center within their travel. I mounted the voice coil and motor assembly so that the voice coil is centered in the gap at the same exact height, meaning the motor and the springs share the same center sweet spot, with tons of potential linear travel in each direction. My biggest concern with this build was coil rub, especially with JBLs notorious for their extremely tight gaps. For this reason I was careful to mount everything plumb.

I have only been able to do some quick testing so far, but it was very promising. The humble JBL motor was definitely able to really get it going, with what felt like a ton of linear excursion on single digit sines with modest power. The next steps are to test with some movie content and to quantify the excursion. I hope to have an update soon with some of that data, some movie usage impressions, and some photos.

Cheers, my TR brethren!
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post #3260 of 4173 Old 05-22-2020, 09:13 AM
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^^^ WOW, Aaron!! Sound very exciting !

I think we need some pics of this Monstrosity
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post #3261 of 4173 Old 05-22-2020, 09:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalleh View Post
The point of the fat tubes is less pressure and more travel. You can’t use 1-3 psi on those smaller tubes.

If you use small tubes( ~2"), then as you say you need to inflate them more to get them of the iso’s/ground/driver flange. So you end up with more pressure. They will be more damped, but harder= less travel.

Don’t know about 16" tubes, as i had to have bigger diameter(26"), because my JBL’s are close together.

And BTW, i haven’t read anyone using 6-7 psi, that sound way too much/hard. Try 4-5psi. Unless you end up on the floor

Anyway the pressures used is individual, and you need to test what works for you. What other use are just guidelines, and depends on weight, nr of tubes and driver, size of tubes, floor, etc.

I do not believe everything I read which is why I asked. I read the 6-7psi from The Hideaway Theater thread by Tim. The actual information was located post 29 chap. 2 click on the link and there is a breakdown on building the boss as well as the hovercraft where I read the the 6 to 7 psi. Based on what I have experienced so far I feel the psi amount while okay could be better. Since you know more than I considering there is countless brands of tubes any particular brands fatter thinner etc? My platform uses the ISO's when compressed I have approx. 1" from bottom of plywood to carpet. The tubes I have are cheap and want something better and this time once I get the new ones I will only inflate to 2-3psi.

Marantz SR-6013, Klipsch F-300 w/Samson SX-2400's Rear Surrounds: Klipsch F-300 w/Behringer EPX-2800, Atmos: 2 pairs DIYSG Volt 6's w/Behringer Nuke 3000 and EP-2000
SUBS:SI HST-18's 8cuft Dual Opposed cabinet w/ Bossobass A14K, 2 SI DS4's each in 7cuft Sealed cabinet w/ Bossobass IT-8000, 4 Infinity 1262's HB and 2 JBL's HB both pwrd by nu6000
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post #3262 of 4173 Old 05-22-2020, 10:24 AM
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Since you’re talking about a measure of spl, then I’d say yes. The problem is how many sealed subs it takes to do the same thing.

I am only looking for 1 to 2 18" subs ported or sealed. I may want to get to 15Hz in room response.

Front: Polk S55
Center: Polk S30
Rear: Polk S10
Sub: P̶L̶-̶2̶0̶0̶I̶I̶ | (̶2̶)̶ ̶F̶V̶X̶1̶2̶ | V1812
AVR: Denon AVR-X3500H
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post #3263 of 4173 Old 05-22-2020, 10:50 AM
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I am only looking for 1 to 2 18" subs ported or sealed. I may want to get to 15Hz in room response.
For your room you need LT 18 inch ported subs. Something like a FV18 paper cone or JTR 2400s.
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Subwoofers: Dual Rythmik FV18s Rev2 with Paper cone, BOSS Platform mini riser, 2 BK LFE
Speakers: PSA MTM-210 L/C/R - Klipsch 250S Surrounds, PSA MT 110sr Rear Surrounds, 4 x SVS Prime Elevation for Atmos
Video: Epson PowerLite Home Cinema 6500 UB; Room: 2100 cuft sealed on suspended floor
Receiver & Players: Denon X4400H, Oppo UDP-203, Roku Ultra. Apple TV, Minidsp 2X4 HD
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post #3264 of 4173 Old 05-22-2020, 10:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Cichlid109 View Post
I do not believe everything I read which is why I asked. I read the 6-7psi from The Hideaway Theater thread by Tim. The actual information was located post 29 chap. 2 click on the link and there is a breakdown on building the boss as well as the hovercraft where I read the the 6 to 7 psi. Based on what I have experienced so far I feel the psi amount while okay could be better. Since you know more than I considering there is countless brands of tubes any particular brands fatter thinner etc? My platform uses the ISO's when compressed I have approx. 1" from bottom of plywood to carpet. The tubes I have are cheap and want something better and this time once I get the new ones I will only inflate to 2-3psi.
6-7 psi is likely too much for any tube I've worked with so far. Not sure why giomania mentioned 6-7 psi in his guide but I just read it and sure enough it's in there Sorry for the confusion. Frankly I haven't proof-read that guide so it may be pre-mature to include it in Post 29. Sorry for the confusion.

I've always recommended using the 4 quarter method.......even just a few days ago here. You probably missed that post

The 4 quarter method will ensure a natural and commanding TR experience staying true to the BOSS roots which is why I endorse it. Once inflation starts to increase and the isolators are no longer in the BOSS system as a result, it will require a lot of trial and error to find a happy place. I could never get to that happy place without isolators in the system which is why the 4 quarter method is recommended as a starting point.

Hope some of this helps.

Edit: For easy reference for those in this thread, the 4 quarter method is here. Basically, this method allows any tube to be used and ensures a target spring rate has been achieved. That target spring rate will combine nicely with the prescribed isolators for a natural and commanding BOSS experience. Deviations from this formula are of course what this thread is all about. Just be aware, it will require more trial and error to get to your own happy place depending on your goals and how much TR your body can handle without getting sick to your stomach (been there, done that)

Another edit: Just updated Post 29 and linked the 4 quarter method in number 10. Also asked Mark if he would be so kind to update the BOSS manual linked in paragraph 2 in Post 29 and remove the 6-7 psi reference on page 14.

Last edited by trhought; 05-22-2020 at 11:49 AM.
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post #3265 of 4173 Old 05-22-2020, 10:59 AM
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and some photos.
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post #3266 of 4173 Old 05-22-2020, 11:10 AM
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+1^!

Sony XBR65x900e / STR-DN1080 / original PS4 / WOW! Ultra TV / Quantum Access Mini PC Stick w/Windows 10 / 8 x Rockville SPG88 8“ DJ PA Speakers / Dayton Audio SA1000 / Kicker 08S15L74 in a Tapped-Tapered Quarter Wave Tube (negative flare tapped horn).
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post #3267 of 4173 Old 05-22-2020, 11:41 AM
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I am only looking for 1 to 2 18" subs ported or sealed. I may want to get to 15Hz in room response.

How big is the room?
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post #3268 of 4173 Old 05-22-2020, 11:54 AM
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^^^ WOW, Aaron!! Sound very exciting !

I think we need some pics of this Monstrosity
Ask Aron about the JL audio WS7 he wanted to use?? He was telling me about it pretty funny. He did say he was going to post pics not sure when. From the way he described it to me it takes TR to a new level!!

Marantz SR-6013, Klipsch F-300 w/Samson SX-2400's Rear Surrounds: Klipsch F-300 w/Behringer EPX-2800, Atmos: 2 pairs DIYSG Volt 6's w/Behringer Nuke 3000 and EP-2000
SUBS:SI HST-18's 8cuft Dual Opposed cabinet w/ Bossobass A14K, 2 SI DS4's each in 7cuft Sealed cabinet w/ Bossobass IT-8000, 4 Infinity 1262's HB and 2 JBL's HB both pwrd by nu6000
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post #3269 of 4173 Old 05-22-2020, 12:41 PM
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How big is the room?

5,000 cuft.

Front: Polk S55
Center: Polk S30
Rear: Polk S10
Sub: P̶L̶-̶2̶0̶0̶I̶I̶ | (̶2̶)̶ ̶F̶V̶X̶1̶2̶ | V1812
AVR: Denon AVR-X3500H
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post #3270 of 4173 Old 05-22-2020, 12:52 PM
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I'm not intentionally holding out or anything like that. I was just going to get it moved upstairs to my home theater and then get it hooked up, take some photos, and do some testing with the movie content and accurate excursion testing using a caliper. The current build, with it just being a proof of concept sort of thing, used a lot of spare pieces I already had lying around, so it's not pretty, and I need to extend the bottom plate a bit to upsize it to fit my single-seat recliner for a really good test. My back has been flared up all week, as it always does when I tackle any kind of build, so I took a break and laid on the couch to give it a rest, and I haven't had the motivation to get back up yet Plus I have some BEQs I want to get done. So I'm feeling physically lazy at the moment. Maybe I should have waited until I completed all this stuff to post, but I was sitting outside enjoying the sun on my laptop this morning, so I typed up that earlier post just to kinda share with you guys what I was working on. Shame on me!

Edit: Here's a photo I have from yesterday



I used the piece of plywood I already had from my previous test platform for the top plate. The bottom plate is another scrap piece I had lying around, but like I said, I need to extend it to fit my recliner. If I decide to do a more final build, I can definitely reduce the overall height quite a bit, especially if I use a lower-profile motor such as one from an MB Quart Discus. And if SPL is desired, it would be easy enough to seal it up.

Take the Red Pill (BassEQ) BassEQ Demo Clips TR Curves
Video: Sony 85" X900F @ 80" eyes-to-screen (49.4° viewing angle)
Audio: Denon AVR-X4400H 7.2.4 Atmos
Mains: Fusion-15 LR, Fusion-8 Center, Ported Volt-10 Surrounds, Custom 45°/45° Double-Angled Ported Volt-6 Atmos
Subs: The Two Towers (HT18 32cf 11.5Hz x 2), UM18 4cf x 2, Crowson MAs x 4

Last edited by aron7awol; 05-22-2020 at 02:19 PM.
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