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post #301 of 543 Old 11-12-2019, 06:08 PM
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^^^ Yeah, the BK LFEs aren’t great under 8-10hz and is no secret, so they are not ‘god-like’ there. But that’s not why you run BKs, we got BOSS and Crowsons for that Now, 10 to 35hz or so, BK LFEs, IMO, are about as 'god-like' as you can get when it comes to insane feeling TR LOL.

My Bk LFEs needed re-greased (the piston barrels). I got that done today and wow what a diff it made, especially in that 10-20hz area it seems. They feel quite a bit better and even allows me to run them harder now too. Anybody who runs BKs, re-lubing them can make a big diff if they’ve had quite a bit of use over time and have become too dry. I used a multi-purpose White Lithium Grease (from a tube, not the spray from a can) and seems to be perfect for them. I tried the spray in the past that is just too runny IMO and also used a ‘too thick and sticky of a grease as well’. This seemed to be the best of the three by far it seems on my BKs.

So back to that ‘god-like’ term Holy Heck Y’all, these 4 BK LFEs mounted cantilevered right behind the arm rests attached to the seats themselves have never felt better. I absolutely LOVE what the BK LFEs can do (on their own and especially in the mix with the other TR devices) and have for several years now, but with the re-greasing of them, I’m reminded why nothing that I’ve ever tried can best them for that OMFG violent feel!!! I ran through a handful of some of my newer favorites movies scenes today that I’m real familiar with, MIB:I, Hobbs & Shaw, Alita, It, Shazam, Venom, etc, and oh my am I ever happy BK LFE owner!!!

Guys, if you are a TR lover and want "more" (or a more "violent feel” I should say), even if you already run a BOSS and or Crowsons and or VNF subs, I just can’t recommend these BK LFEs enough!! Yes, they have their cons like most things do, but the pros FAR exceed the cons. Several of them ran together can feel pretty lethal, especially when combined with your other gear
Shelby.....Thanks....great description of the BK's and the violence they bring. I probably created some confusion with my "god-like" descriptor. That probably wasn't the correct phrase to describe what my brain was thinking when I typed that.

What I was trying to say was the "touch of god" feeling when the single digit TR happens. You know that eery feeling that comes about when feeling single digit TR. It's like you can feel some one is moving around you, but you look around and there's no one there. I love that feeling from BOSS and it brings so much more to the material.

I've even had this feeling with BEQ music. In that case, I think it may have actually been people walking around in the recording studio while they were cutting the track. It's a very eery feeling but once I get used to it, the experience is heightened because it feels like I'm right there in the recording studio with the artist.

Any way, sorry for the confusion.....this "touch of god" with the single digit TR is what I was trying to describe in my original post I love that feeling, probably more than anything else I've felt with TR so far.

You're right, the violence around 20Hz is pretty awesome too. And, the chest slam from 40-80 Hz makes you stand up and take notice! I love that range for music and gunshots. Especially with BOSS and in a reclined position (chest parallel with the BOSS action)....the TR is almost too much in that range, even more than when I was running a VNF right up against my recliner last summer. With BEQ, the 40-80 can be awesome if your LPF will allow. With the addition of a 5-7 dB 1.4 Q PEQ filter in BEQd, the 20Hz will shake my eyeballs in their sockets and cause my speech to blur. Fun, yes, but fatiguing and sometimes gimmicky.

For example, there's a scene in the recent Hobbs and Shaw when a building is falling that delivered an incredible amount of energy in this frequency range. It felt like someone was taking a jackhammer to our couches for like 4-5 seconds straight. Everyone in the theater looked at each other and started laughing. Personally, I didn't like it, it just felt too gimmicky and didn't match what was happening on the screen very well. But, our guests seemed to enjoy it, so I was very pleased.

Just goes to show how TR can add another dimension to the experience, sometimes in a good way and sometimes not so good, but I think it's a highly personal experience. The cool thing is we can tune how much TR we like and what frequencies we like and our guests will still enjoy the experience and express so much gratitude after the movie.

That's what I enjoy most about TR....personally shaping it and showing guests how much potential is in every movie. The BOSS plus BEQ hasn't disappointed yet, except when the TR becomes too much or gimmicky like Hobbs and Shaw. Textured TR is a gift and some movies do a great job with it. Even some older films have incredibly textured and nuanced TR, Deep Blue Sea (1999) comes to mind. I think it's the combination of all the TR frequencies and how the film mixer combines those to create the atmosphere and tension that makes a memorable experience. Not just one frequency droning events for a few seconds that shake your teeth like the sound design of Hobbs and Shaw, even BEQ couldn't help that movie.

Geez, sounds like I'm really knocking Hobbs and Shaw, but it was really a fun movie. Maybe that's what the mixer was after, kinda like the Disney 4D movies. I kept waiting for a poker to come out of the seat and poke me in the back during that movie.
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post #302 of 543 Old 11-12-2019, 08:21 PM - Thread Starter
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^^^ Ahhh ok, I gotcha!! Yeah single digit ULF can be amazing in a very moving/powerful kind of way (emotionally …and physically) …great description of it and good post man

Yep your right, I think how much TR one likes (and the way its used) can be very personal for sure. I happen to like a TON of it, BUT that said, I never want it to feel gimmicky. If it's does, it NO good and takes me ought of the super realistic experience I’m after. And yep, tuning it to taste is a huge part of it and so cool that we can do that!!! And what works or feels great in one setup, may not in another. A prime example is that you love the way your BOSS feels in the 40-80hz region. For me on my seats, it just feels way too gimmicky and too much vibration if I run mine much over about 40hz or without a pretty big taper on it above this point. MAs too. VNF subs are the preferred method here for me for chest punch and not as much vibration, but they are not connected to my BOSS platform either, (or SubRiser I should say), like Nalleh’s are for another example.

Cool that it works so well for you in that region though!!! That's definitely a beauty of being able to tailor your gear and TR experience to your particular seating and preferences

Dude, I absolutely LOVED that scene in Hobbs and Shaw and know exactly which one you’re talking about when that tall tower/building falls!!! . But ‘Gimmicky’ would SO not be how I would describe it. It was so insanely powerful and realistic feeling …..but those words still don’t even quite capture what I fully experienced. I don’t know how else I would describe it actually, other than maybe ….just FREAKING EPIC!!!! I loved every second of that scene and even replayed it 2-3 times before moving on LOL. There were several bass scenes in that movie that just totally did it for me. I even wrote up a review for it in the BEQ thread a few days ago HERE. Don’t know if you saw that or not. I was so hyped afterwards that I had to tell my BEQ brothers about it, as it’s fun to share that kind of stuff over there sometimes

But I know we all can have different experiences and preferences, some of it probably just having to do with personal preference, but some, or maybe even a lot of that comes from system differences. Some movies bass and TR can be more satisfying in ways than others, and probably has a lot to do with system as well as the movies actual bass style and delivery, plus the whole personal preference thing.

It may not make a difference, but a couple of things that come to mind as to why you thought that scene (or even other scenes in that movie) felt gimmicky to you (other than maybe not liking the style of the bass). Even though you like your BOSS ran in full swing up to 80hz, maybe this movie would feel better with it tapered off a lot earlier in frequency like a lot of us seem to prefer. Maybe, maybe not, IDK. Just throwing that out there. The other is maybe you don’t quite have enough fullness and weight from your subs in that big 20hz area to go along with the TR in that same area, therefore making it feel gimmicky when TR gets strong without enough Bass sound, weight and fullness to go with it. 20hz can be a super strong and terrorizing frequency for TR (probably why I love it so much LOL). So again, this may be part of it, maybe not, IDK. Just another thought. Too much TR without enough fullness of sound and weight can feel gimmicky sometimes, depending on the frequency or frequencies. There could be a few other things going on too, to give a gimmicky feel, but I’ll stop there. Some movie’s Bass do have a way of bringing out a gimmicky feeling more than others, so I do understand what you’re saying, but man I loved this one and that particular scene. Some of the coolest and most satisfying Bass and TR that Ive experienced. That flame thrower too, WOAH!!! LOVED the feel of that thing!!! LOL

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post #303 of 543 Old 11-12-2019, 09:39 PM
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^^^ Ahhh ok, I gotcha!! Yeah single digit ULF can be amazing in a very moving/powerful kind of way (emotionally …and physically) …great description of it and good post man

Yep your right, I think how much TR one likes (and the way its used) can be very personal for sure. I happen to like a TON of it, BUT that said, I never want it to feel gimmicky. If it's does, it NO good and takes me ought of the super realistic experience I’m after. And yep, tuning it to taste is a huge part of it and so cool that we can do that!!! And what works or feels great in one setup, may not in another. A prime example is that you love the way your BOSS feels in the 40-80hz region. For me on my seats, it just feels way too gimmicky and too much vibration if I run mine much over about 40hz or without a pretty big taper on it above this point. MAs too. VNF subs are the preferred method here for me for chest punch and not as much vibration, but they are not connected to my BOSS platform either, (or SubRiser I should say), like Nalleh’s are for another example.

Cool that it works so well for you in that region though!!! That's definitely a beauty of being able to tailor your gear and TR experience to your particular seating and preferences

Dude, I absolutely LOVED that scene in Hobbs and Shaw and know exactly which one you’re talking about when that tall tower/building falls!!! . But ‘Gimmicky’ would SO not be how I would describe it. It was so insanely powerful and realistic feeling …..but those words still don’t even quite capture what I fully experienced. I don’t know how else I would describe it actually, other than maybe ….just FREAKING EPIC!!!! I loved every second of that scene and even replayed it 2-3 times before moving on LOL. There were several bass scenes in that movie that just totally did it for me. I even wrote up a review for it in the BEQ thread a few days ago HERE. Don’t know if you saw that or not. I was so hyped afterwards that I had to tell my BEQ brothers about it, as it’s fun to share that kind of stuff over there sometimes

But I know we all can have different experiences and preferences, some of it probably just having to do with personal preference, but some, or maybe even a lot of that comes from system differences. Some movies bass and TR can be more satisfying in ways than others, and probably has a lot to do with system as well as the movies actual bass style and delivery, plus the whole personal preference thing.

It may not make a difference, but a couple of things that come to mind as to why you thought that scene (or even other scenes in that movie) felt gimmicky to you (other than maybe not liking the style of the bass). Even though you like your BOSS ran in full swing up to 80hz, maybe this movie would feel better with it tapered off a lot earlier in frequency like a lot of us seem to prefer. Maybe, maybe not, IDK. Just throwing that out there. The other is maybe you don’t quite have enough fullness and weight from your subs in that big 20hz area to go along with the TR in that same area, therefore making it feel gimmicky when TR gets strong without enough Bass sound, weight and fullness to go with it. 20hz can be a super strong and terrorizing frequency for TR (probably why I love it so much LOL). So again, this may be part of it, maybe not, IDK. Just another thought. Too much TR without enough fullness of sound and weight can feel gimmicky sometimes, depending on the frequency or frequencies. There could be a few other things going on too, to give a gimmicky feel, but I’ll stop there. Some movie’s Bass do have a way of bringing out a gimmicky feeling more than others, so I do understand what you’re saying, but man I loved this one and that particular scene. Some of the coolest and most satisfying Bass and TR that Ive experienced. That flame thrower too, WOAH!!! LOVED the feel of that thing!!! LOL
Thanks Shelby....just read your BEQ write-up you linked for Hobbs and Shaw. I think my guests would probably agree with your write-up for sure.

I remember that building collapse scene...mostly because how my son looked at his friend sitting next to him on the front row and they just started busting out laughing.

Fun times! And, you're right about the comedy....every time the Rock was onscreen with Statham, we were laughing to tears, literally.

It was definitely a popcorn movie.....my son and I were talking about it the other day and he just shook his head about the ending and the whole helicopter and nitrous oxide thing. But, then he said it was probably one of the best movies he's seen in a while. Different strokes for different folks I guess

About the gimmicky feel, I can't quite put my finger on it. It didn't feel textured like some of my favorite full bandwidth bass demos scenes I consider reference and try to emulate with any filtered movie using BEQd. The reference scenes that are scarred into my mind from years of listening are: WOTW-Pods Emerge, WOTW- lighting strikes, any action scene from any of the Underworld movies, Terminator Salvation - Gas Station scene, The Robocop remake - mini-gun scene, Oblivion, Interstellar - worm hole, Flight of the Phoenix - Barrel role, etc. Although maybe what biased my opinion was we had just watched a few of the Marvel movies as we're rediscovering the Marvel Universe with BEQ and have been very pleasantly surprised by the textured TR in those movies. Hobbs and Shaw just seemed like a let down to me personally. I haven't been able to find the BEQ magic I seek to get the same experience as my reference scenes above. Maybe I was just expecting too much or maybe I was biased from watching so many great BEQ restored Marvel movies....I think we were on Marvel movie number 14 or something like that at the time
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post #304 of 543 Old 11-12-2019, 10:33 PM - Thread Starter
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^^^ Yeah, I found myself really laughing out loud quite a few times and had a real good time with it

Ehh well, who knows why you got the gimmicky feel on that one, yeah maybe it was what you were used to feeling with prior movies that you saw right before. Also, maybe you accidentally got one of your filters wrong when you remuxed it. I actually preferred 3db less on the 4th 20hz LS (Aron’s BEQ) with that much more sub trim boost to compensate to get that whole area up around -15dbfs levels, bringing in more LF and Midbass to go with it. Just 3db can make a real big difference sometimes.

Cool on the Marvels, I’m fixing to do the same thing and started with first one last week …Captain America: First Avenger

Also, yeah, all those ones you listed are some of the best ever!!!

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post #305 of 543 Old 11-13-2019, 03:56 AM
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...
My Bk LFEs needed re-greased (the piston barrels). I got that done today and wow what a diff it made, especially in that 10-20hz area it seems. They feel quite a bit better and even allows me to run them harder now too. Anybody who runs BKs, re-lubing them can make a big diff if they’ve had quite a bit of use over time and have become too dry. I used a multi-purpose White Lithium Grease (from a tube, not the spray from a can) and seems to be perfect for them. I tried the spray in the past that is just too runny IMO and also used a ‘too thick and sticky of a grease as well’. This seemed to be the best of the three by far it seems on my BKs.
WOW.. never thought they'd need to be re-lubed! Mine are about 10-15 years old now and I've never re-lubed them. And now that I think about it, one of them does sound odd now-a-days. I found a procedure in another posting which shows how to disassemble. He added a pair of smaller bumpers on the piston ends to soften them from bottoming out so hard with that metal-metal thump.

-> https://www.avsforum.com/forum/29-wh...l#post57078188

Did you add the rubber bumper too while you had them open and apart and if so did you like the results?
Looks like I have a weekend project! Thanks!!
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post #306 of 543 Old 11-13-2019, 07:05 AM
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I found a procedure in another posting which shows how to disassemble. He added a pair of smaller bumpers on the piston ends to soften them from bottoming out so hard with that metal-metal thump.
Can you post a link to that? Lots of folks have complained about the noise and I couldn't find that the last time I looked for it.
Thanks.
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post #307 of 543 Old 11-13-2019, 07:41 AM
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^^^ Sure I also added to the original post. Finding the rubber bumpers which are not too thick may be trickier.

-> https://www.avsforum.com/forum/29-wh...l#post57078188
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post #308 of 543 Old 11-13-2019, 07:54 AM
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I should have KNOWN it was @Nalleh .

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post #309 of 543 Old 11-13-2019, 10:06 AM - Thread Starter
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WOW.. never thought they'd need to be re-lubed! Mine are about 10-15 years old now and I've never re-lubed them. And now that I think about it, one of them does sound odd now-a-days. I found a procedure in another posting which shows how to disassemble. He added a pair of smaller bumpers on the piston ends to soften them from bottoming out so hard with that metal-metal thump.

-> https://www.avsforum.com/forum/29-wh...l#post57078188

Did you add the rubber bumper too while you had them open and apart and if so did you like the results?
Looks like I have a weekend project! Thanks!!
Yeah, I think they just dry out over time and maybe even faster with heavy use. 2 of my 4 BK LFEs I’ve been using for about 4-5 years now (bought new) and the other only about ~2 years ago (bought new as well).

They were starting to get pretty noisy, especially one of them. When I unbolted it form the seat, I could hear the piston making noise too easily just by tilting the BK or shaking it much. The re-lube fixed it. They still make noise on certain scenes and frequencies when ran hard if there is no other sound effects to cover it up (not the bottoming noise I’m talking about here), but it’s not nearly as high pitched. It’s more of a dull rattle that is way more subdued if that makes since. Its just the normal sounds of the BKs working. At certain frequencies and intensity levels it can sometimes be one of the drawbacks of BKs, but as I was saying in one of my previous posts, the pros far outweigh the cons. At some point, I intend to make some sort of hush box to silence them. Should pretty much totally take care of any noises they make, as when I had them mounted on the inside of my SubRiser at one point for testing, it totally eliminated ALL noises that sometimes comes from the BKs. It was acting as a giant hush box for them basically In fact, I’m loving the TR that these BK LFEs bring so much that I may actually add 4 more of them to the inside of my SubRiser at some point. Now that ought to kick some serious butt right there, 8 of them all working together hahahahaha This IS AVS remember, where overkill sometimes happens

Also, in that 10-16hz area the lube really seems to help as well, I think by allowing the piston to do its job more efficiently. They just feel smoother and more powerful, especially in this this area.

About the extra rubber bumpers, Nalleh’s the man for these BKs!! I haven’t added them yet, but probably should at some point. I didn’t have any good rubber pieces when I re-lubed them the other day and just wanted to see if it helped them. But that said, I haven’t felt or heard them bottom yet on all the material I’ve thrown at them, even at really spirited levels. But I run a pack of BK LFEs and levered behind the seats (cantilevered), so I don’t think I have to push them quite as hard to really get a super strong effect from them. I’m sure that's helping them not bottom (at least that I’m aware of). That said, I probably still need to do the extra bumper rubbers like Nalleh used on his. @Nalleh – where did you get those little rubber square pieces that you’re using on yours?
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post #310 of 543 Old 11-13-2019, 11:18 AM
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^^ Your awsome results with the re-greasing makes me want to go over mine once more

Well, i got my rubber pads here in Norway, but it is just some basic self adhesive rubber furniture feet pads. Quick search showed something like this:

https://www.walmart.com/ip/48PCS-Pro...Pads/496137786

The bottoming out on the BK’s is a rather violent metal klacking, but if you do not run them hard enough to hear that, then there shouldn’t really be a need for them

LOL, yeah i am considering adding more BK’s too!!

We may have a condition.......

I also have a idea about a different placement of isolators that may improve performance, but need to test out first
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post #311 of 543 Old 11-13-2019, 02:16 PM
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^^ Since I've not had my BK open before, when you guys re-lube them with white lithium grease, do you just shift the piston and spread a light coating around each end of the piston? Too much could be bad too as it could gum up the units. I want to be sure I don't overdo. Thanks!
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post #312 of 543 Old 11-13-2019, 02:19 PM - Thread Starter
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^^ Your awsome results with the re-greasing makes me want to go over mine once more

Well, i got my rubber pads here in Norway, but it is just some basic self adhesive rubber furniture feet pads. Quick search showed something like this:

https://www.walmart.com/ip/48PCS-Pro...Pads/496137786

The bottoming out on the BK’s is a rather violent metal klacking, but if you do not run them hard enough to hear that, then there shouldn’t really be a need for them

LOL, yeah i am considering adding more BK’s too!!

We may have a condition.......

I also have a idea about a different placement of isolators that may improve performance, but need to test out first
Well, if you re-lubed yours not too long ago (which I think you did right?), it probably won’t make much diff. But then again it may

Awesome find on the rubber bumpers, thanks for the link!!

LOL …Yeah, I think it’s safe to say that me and you both have a condition when it comes to this stuff Hahaha
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post #313 of 543 Old 11-13-2019, 04:14 PM - Thread Starter
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^^ Since I've not had my BK open before, when you guys re-lube them with white lithium grease, do you just shift the piston and spread a light coating around each end of the piston? Too much could be bad too as it could gum up the units. I want to be sure I don't overdo. Thanks!
Yes, I was worried about using too much as well. The good thing is, is that it seems to be a lighter grease compared the wheel bearing grease that I used at one point. I thought it was way too thick and sticky (at least the kind I used). I wiped most all I could get out of it and then used the white lithium spray, which is way too thin I thought. So far for me, it seems the actual “lube from the tube” lol with the white lithium grease is the best.

And yes, you’re correct, just shift the piston as far as it will go in one direction and apply a thin layer of grease on all surfaces of the barrel. Then repeat for the other side. Then push the piston back and forth and work it all in good.
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post #314 of 543 Old 11-13-2019, 06:59 PM
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^^^ Yeah, I found myself really laughing out loud quite a few times and had a real good time with it

Ehh well, who knows why you got the gimmicky feel on that one, yeah maybe it was what you were used to feeling with prior movies that you saw right before. Also, maybe you accidentally got one of your filters wrong when you remuxed it. I actually preferred 3db less on the 4th 20hz LS (Aron’s BEQ) with that much more sub trim boost to compensate to get that whole area up around -15dbfs levels, bringing in more LF and Midbass to go with it. Just 3db can make a real big difference sometimes.

Cool on the Marvels, I’m fixing to do the same thing and started with first one last week …Captain America: First Avenger

Also, yeah, all those ones you listed are some of the best ever!!!
Oh man, if you're adjusting BEQ filters and sub trims for each movie, you need to jump on remux. You'll never have to boot up a computer and mess with the mini nor adjust subs ever again. Don't worry about losing true Atmos capability. Today's upmixers are freakin' awesome, especially Auromatic.

Seriously, there's so many advantages remux has I could write a few paragraphs about the subject. If interested, let me know

Enjoy First Avenger! It was a real treat watching it again after all these years. BOSS plus BEQ has been so satisfying with those films! You're going to love re-discovering the Marvel universe with your new setup and BEQ. I'm interested in hearing your impressions of the ULF TR in those with restored bass. It has been an eye opener for me and our setup. Have learned a lot about dialing in the BOSS "house curve" to taste with those movies. And, yes, I'm using an LPF of 80Hz still and using the BEQ taps all the way up in that region also for added weight...wouldn't have it any other way for that chest punch and BEQ music that I love so much.

The other cool thing I just remembered.....Captain Marvel is right after First Avenger. It was great to compare/contrast ULF TR from a recent Marvel release with one of the originals back to back like that. Needless to say, we've really enjoyed the ride from the very beginning!
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post #315 of 543 Old 11-13-2019, 07:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Oh man, if you're adjusting BEQ filters and sub trims for each movie, you need to jump on remux. You'll never have to boot up a computer and mess with the mini nor adjust subs ever again. Don't worry about losing true Atmos capability. Today's upmixers are freakin' awesome, especially Auromatic.

Seriously, there's so many advantages remux has I could write a few paragraphs about the subject. If interested, let me know

Enjoy First Avenger! It was a real treat watching it again after all these years. BOSS plus BEQ has been so satisfying with those films! You're going to love re-discovering the Marvel universe with your new setup and BEQ. I'm interested in hearing your impressions of the ULF TR in those with restored bass. It has been an eye opener for me and our setup. Have learned a lot about dialing in the BOSS "house curve" to taste with those movies. And, yes, I'm using an LPF of 80Hz still and using the BEQ taps all the way up in that region also for added weight...wouldn't have it any other way for that chest punch and BEQ music that I love so much.

The other cool thing I just remembered.....Captain Marvel is right after First Avenger. It was great to compare/contrast ULF TR from a recent Marvel release with one of the originals back to back like that. Needless to say, we've really enjoyed the ride from the very beginning!
Awesome on the Marvels!! Yeah I’m really looking forward to experiencing them all with BEQ!! I’ve already seen Captain marvel twice and though it was just killer with BEQ, but will watch it again next to follow the order

LOL, I had a feeling you might say something about me adjusting the sub trim and changing the BEQ on Hobbs & Shaw I have no prob doing that if I feel the need and is so quick and easy to do, second nature for me on the fly if need be I guess. Then I just save it that way in my BEQs for next time it’s loaded. The beauty of having the mini for real time changes!! Awesome for experimenting too on the fly because of this This really allows you to fine tune your gear and setup to suit personal tastes. NO WAY could I be without that luxury these days now that I’ve got a taste of it. Its spoiled me to death and don’t know how I survived without this kind of real time control in the past, especially with the tweaking and experimenting I like to do sometimes.

Most of Aron’s BEQ’s I find just right through and my sub trims have been staying pretty much the same for the majority of movies actually. But like a said, I will make a quick change if I feel the need on a certain movie and published BEQ and have no problems with that. Easy Peasy!!

As far as remixing, nah too much work for me when it’s so simple in the miniDSP, plus no way could I lose the Atmos, I do LOVE it for most movies. Some aren’t as good as others, but I’ve compared the really good ones and some that are just OK and seem to prefer the Atmos every time, even though the upmixers do a great job on most of them.

I know you love the remux and upmixing with your setup though (I remember reading about your thoughts on it in the BEQ thread a while back) and glad it works so well for you!!! More than one way to skin a cat and give us what we want

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post #316 of 543 Old 11-13-2019, 08:07 PM
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Awesome on the Marvels!! Yeah I’m really looking forward to experiencing them all with BEQ!! I’ve already seen Captain marvel twice and though it was just killer with BEQ, but will watch it again next to follow the order

LOL, I had a feeling you might say something about me adjusting the sub trim and changing the BEQ on Hobbs & Shaw I have no prob doing that if I feel the need and is so quick and easy to do, second nature for me on the fly if need be I guess. Then I just save it that way in my BEQs for next time it’s loaded. The beauty of having the mini for real time changes!! Awesome for experimenting too on the fly because of this This really allows you to fine tune your gear and setup to suit personal tastes. NO WAY could I be without that luxury these days now that I’ve got a taste of it. Its spoiled me to death and don’t know how I survived without this kind of real time control in the past, especially with the tweaking and experimenting I like to do sometimes.

Most of Aron’s BEQ’s I find just right through and my sub trims have been staying pretty much the same for the majority of movies actually. But like a said, I will make a quick change if I feel the need on a certain movie and published BEQ and have no problems with that. Easy Peasy!!

As far as remixing, nah too much work for me when it’s so simple in the miniDSP, plus no way could I lose the Atmos, I do LOVE it for most movies. Some aren’t as good as others, but I’ve compared the really good ones and some that are just OK and seem to prefer the Atmos every time, even though the upmixers do a great job on most of them.

I know you love the remux and upmixing with your setup though (I remember reading about your thoughts on it in the BEQ thread a while back) and glad it works so well for you!!! More than one way to skin a cat and give us what we want
I think you'll like the ULF TR in First Avenger just as well as the more recent Captain Marvel. It was fun to contrast the 2 since they were back-to-back.

The whole changing on the fly would zap the enjoyment right out of it for me, especially when I have a room full of guests wondering what's taking so long. Then I would have to remember to change things back afterwards or load up the correct BEQ for the next flick and get blasted by those annoying disc menu sounds with BEQ. All while everyone is wondering what's happening and the magic gets lost for them too.

There's really something very satisfying for me in the simplicity of hitting play and sitting back to enjoy being transported to another space or time along with my guests.

Plus, I really enjoy crafting the BEQ's at night on my own in my own little home theater lab <cue the maniacal laughing>. Then, when they're ready to shine, it's fun to have the guests or family cue up any of my "artworks" on the Plex server and enjoy the film without the fuss. Then after the film, all the compliments about the sound and bass. Why does it sound so good....."that's my own little secret" is my favorite reply.

Case in point, today I was traveling out of state and got a phone call from my son after he and his friend watched "47 meters down:Uncaged" after school. He went on and on about the "bass". That brought a huge smile to my face after a long day. After hanging up, I reminisced about the cool discoveries and challenges I had crafting that BEQ curve

Call me crazy.....but I love it!
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post #317 of 543 Old 11-13-2019, 08:42 PM - Thread Starter
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^^^ Yeah, the First Avenger had some great ULF and an awesome soundtrack I thought!! Kind of surprised me actually just how good it was with it being older.

Well, as far as changing on the fly goes and you usually having “guests” in your theater, I can see how that would annoy you and probably your guests as well and simplicity being the best in your case for sure . Just press play and go

As for me, 99% of the time I’m watching the movie by myself and don’t mind at all loading a BEQ, or even tweaking a sub trim or BEQ just a bit if I feel it needs it. But then, it's done and saved if somebody wants to watch it with me or whatever. But yeah, the BEQ does have to be loaded before each movie. But we never watch more than one movie at a time as a family anyway, at least not without a break, so no biggie there.

Again, I can totally see why you do what you do with your setup and routine for the family/guests for all your showings!! Way cool that it works so well!! Sounds like they all get a LOT of joy out of it as do you

Also, I can appreciate the joy you get from crafting the BEQ’s yourself in your “lab” Plus getting them already to go on Plex and all that. Impressive and rewarding all in one

Another reason I can appreciate that and relate, is that I get that kind of joy a lot of times from experimenting and or tweaking something, and even just jumping around for demo of my favorite movie scenes. It’s things like this that are so fun to me as well as just watching movies. Although lately, it’s been quite a bit of movies/series and has been a real joy!!

Keep on doing what you’re doing man with your crafting routine for the showings and all that. That's why we do all this stuff is for enjoyment and is what it’s all about.
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post #318 of 543 Old 11-13-2019, 09:10 PM
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^^^ Yeah, the First Avenger had some great ULF and an awesome soundtrack I thought!! Kind of surprised me actually just how good it was with it being older.

Well, as far as changing on the fly goes and you usually having “guests” in your theater, I can see how that would annoy you and probably your guests as well and simplicity being the best in your case for sure . Just press play and go

As for me, 99% of the time I’m watching the movie by myself and don’t mind at all loading a BEQ, or even tweaking a sub trim or BEQ just a bit if I feel it needs it. But then, it's done and saved if somebody wants to watch it with me or whatever. But yeah, the BEQ does have to be loaded before each movie. But we never watch more than one movie at a time as a family anyway, at least not without a break, so no biggie there.

Again, I can totally see why you do what you do with your setup and routine for the family/guests for all your showings!! Way cool that it works so well!! Sounds like they all get a LOT of joy out of it as do you

Also, I can appreciate the joy you get from crafting the BEQ’s yourself in your “lab” Plus getting them already to go on Plex and all that. Impressive and rewarding all in one

Another reason I can appreciate that and relate, is that I get that kind of joy a lot of times from experimenting and or tweaking something, and even just jumping around for demo of my favorite movie scenes. It’s things like this that are so fun to me as well as just watching movies. Although lately, it’s been quite a bit of movies/series and has been a real joy!!

Keep on doing what you’re doing man with your crafting routine for the showings and all that. That's why we do all this stuff is for enjoyment and is what it’s all about.
It's been an awesome year to be a home theater enthusiast. Hard to imagine the first 20 years of our theater and we didn't have hardly any TR in our basement setup...some gentle tickling as the far field subs were firing away, but nothing like we have now. I'd say we've probably watched more movies down there this year than probably the last 5 years or so. It's been so fun....like a having a brand new theater, but the cost was just a few hundred dollars....still boggles my mind.

Speaking of demo scenes you mentioned jumping around, I keep telling myself to make a montage of favorite bass demo scenes with BEQ remux. How cool would that be. It may be TR overload though after about 30-40 minutes of constant wobble. Would be fun to try one of these days though.
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post #319 of 543 Old 11-13-2019, 09:20 PM
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My Bk LFEs needed re-greased (the piston barrels). I got that done today and wow what a diff it made, especially in that 10-20hz area it seems. They feel quite a bit better and even allows me to run them harder now too. Anybody who runs BKs, re-lubing them can make a big diff if they’ve had quite a bit of use over time and have become too dry. I used a multi-purpose White Lithium Grease (from a tube, not the spray from a can) and seems to be perfect for them. I tried the spray in the past that is just too runny IMO and also used a ‘too thick and sticky of a grease as well’. This seemed to be the best of the three by far it seems on my BKs.
Yup, I too have greased up the piston barrels on my various Buttkickers over the years... most recently one of my big old ProBKs models I use on my riser started just kind of emitting a slight clank as compared to the other one under more demanding LFE scenes... took it apart, lubed it up and good as new... and like you, I have found that just with the regreasing allows the BKs to be run a bit harder. I haven't needed to add any rubber stoppers..... the grease keeps the piston perfectly centered in the cylinder, eliminates any side to side slop movement and thus quieter...
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post #320 of 543 Old 11-14-2019, 09:55 AM
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I keep telling myself to make a montage of favorite bass demo scenes with BEQ remux. How cool would that be.
That would be very cool. I have the clips from my Best of Demos disc (nothing like a little self-promotion ) in mkv format ready to go. Unfortunately, I haven't been able to get BEQdesigner to read any of my files. I'm sure I'm just being stupid, so I'll play with it some more. Hopefully, I can make it a weekend project.
I'll keep you posted.
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Yup, I too have greased up the piston barrels on my various Buttkickers over the years... most recently one of my big old ProBKs models I use on my riser started just kind of emitting a slight clank as compared to the other one under more demanding LFE scenes... took it apart, lubed it up and good as new... and like you, I have found that just with the regreasing allows the BKs to be run a bit harder. I haven't needed to add any rubber stoppers..... the grease keeps the piston perfectly centered in the cylinder, eliminates any side to side slop movement and thus quieter...
Cool, thanks for posting about that!!

So, when you say 'big old ProBK', are you talking about the original BK that came before the BK LFE and is quite a bit bigger? I read some about it a while back and wanted to try to track one down to try since there’re not made anymore, thinking that thing could probably feel pretty hardcore, since the BK LFEs sure can, even with it being smaller. Well at least in multiples it sure can. They are still pretty good sized and heavy.

If you do have the original BK, have you compared it to a BK LFE? Just curious what your thoughts are between the two if you have.

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post #322 of 543 Old 11-14-2019, 06:27 PM
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Cool, thanks for posting about that!!

So, when you say 'big old ProBK', are you talking about the original BK that came before the BK LFE and is quite a bit bigger? I read some about it a while back and wanted to try to track one down to try since there’re not made anymore, thinking that thing could probably feel pretty hardcore, since the BK LFEs sure can, even with it being smaller. Well at least in multiples it sure can. They are still pretty good sized and heavy.

If you do have the original BK, have you compared it to a BK LFE? Just curious what your thoughts are between the two if you have.
Yes, the Probks 3.5s! I got one and then the other a fews years ago on Ebay... Once I decided to try and install transducers on my big heavy riser, I knew I needed the biggest buttkickers I could find. I never did do an actual comparison with the LFE, since I knew I needed max power and immediately sold my LFE models. While not the best comparison, here is a couple photos showing it next to one of my Buttkicker Advance models that I will be selling now that my loveseat and arm chair are now BOSS enabled!
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^^ Cool, thanks for the pics!!

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post #324 of 543 Old 11-14-2019, 08:46 PM
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Unfortunately, I haven't been able to get BEQdesigner to read any of my files. I'm sure I'm just being stupid, so I'll play with it some more.
Getting files loaded. Able to add filters. Remux is terrible. Several hours wasted.
Is there a thread or forum for help, since following the instructions is getting me nowhere?
Thanks.
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post #325 of 543 Old 11-14-2019, 09:18 PM
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You're right, the violence around 20Hz is pretty awesome too. And, the chest slam from 40-80 Hz makes you stand up and take notice! I love that range for music and gunshots. Especially with BOSS and in a reclined position (chest parallel with the BOSS action)....the TR is almost too much in that range, even more than when I was running a VNF right up against my recliner last summer. With BEQ, the 40-80 can be awesome if your LPF will allow. With the addition of a 5-7 dB 1.4 Q PEQ filter in BEQd, the 20Hz will shake my eyeballs in their sockets and cause my speech to blur. Fun, yes, but fatiguing and sometimes gimmicky.
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I think how much TR one likes (and the way its used) can be very personal for sure. I happen to like a TON of it, BUT that said, I never want it to feel gimmicky. If it's does, it NO good and takes me ought of the super realistic experience I’m after. And yep, tuning it to taste is a huge part of it and so cool that we can do that!!! And what works or feels great in one setup, may not in another. A prime example is that you love the way your BOSS feels in the 40-80hz region. For me on my seats, it just feels way too gimmicky and too much vibration if I run mine much over about 40hz or without a pretty big taper on it above this point. MAs too. VNF subs are the preferred method here for me for chest punch and not as much vibration
I'd like to share my brief TR experiences and why I agree with SBuger that BOSS platforms do not provide good mid-bass chest slam, or reproduce higher frequency TR in general.

I went to Tim's house several months ago while traveling thru central Louisiana and was able to try out his main BOSS riser and mini-riser BOSS platforms with several demo clips. On some material his BOSS's were incredible and seemed very natural - even my wife was very impressed, and she's not HT savvy or cares very much at all (she even tries to get away with calling my 'man cave' her 'she-shed' instead). On other clips I guess I experienced the gimmicky TR - it was just too easy to tell the vibrations were coming from somewhere under my seat instead of occurring 'organically'. Looking back, it was probably the clips with higher frequency content that seemed gimmicky. Also Tim's sofas had fairly soft cloth cushions that I assume would filter higher frequency vibrations more so than my stiffer leather cushions.

The best chest slam I've experienced was at a north Dallas GTG at thxman's house a couple of years ago. He has a fantastic HT in a smallish closed room (maybe 1500 cuft) on the second floor. Great conditions for ULF TR, but I'm not sure how much this helps chest slam. His subs were two Seaton F18 Master/Slave pairs (total of 4 x 18" sealed) with one pair at the front of the room, and the 2nd pair immediately behind his second row recliners. The only transducers I was aware of were his 3 front row DBOX seats - his DBOX was pretty amazing, but it's a different animal than the TR we're talking about here.

The demo clip I remember most from the GTG was the opening scene of 'Unbroken'. When the flak started exploding around the WWII bomber we were placed in, it was the most intense chest slam I had ever experienced. It literally felt like someone took a heavy flat seat cushion and swung it as hard as he could flush against my back. My entire upper body felt like it moved an inch or two. The first time thru this clip I was sitting in a 2nd row recliner a foot or two from one of the rear subs. I assumed the TR from the subs was pushing the seatback which in turn was pushing me. However the second time thru the same clip, I moved to sitting on the rear seat's riser off to one side (a couple of feet further away from the subs), with only my butt and feet touching anything. I still felt the same (almost) intense slam across my back. The only way my upper body could have felt the slam this time was directly from the subs' shockwave.

I guess what I'm saying is good chest slam has to start with a percussive sound intensity wave that penetrates into your body and then generates natural resonances from within using your internal body cavities, as opposed to vibrations that are generated externally and then mechanically transferred to your body. I have no scientific proof of this, but I have read similar descriptions elsewhere, and this also seems to explain the differences I have felt myself.
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post #326 of 543 Old 11-14-2019, 09:40 PM
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I'd like to share my brief TR experiences and why I agree with SBuger that BOSS platforms do not provide good mid-bass chest slam, or reproduce higher frequency TR in general.



I went to Tim's house several months ago while traveling thru central Louisiana and was able to try out his main BOSS riser and mini-riser BOSS platforms with several demo clips. On some material his BOSS's were incredible and seemed very natural - even my wife was very impressed, and she's not HT savvy or cares very much at all (she even tries to get away with calling my 'man cave' her 'she-shed' instead). On other clips I guess I experienced the gimmicky TR - it was just too easy to tell the vibrations were coming from somewhere under my seat instead of occurring 'organically'. Looking back, it was probably the clips with higher frequency content that seemed gimmicky. Also Tim's sofas had fairly soft cloth cushions that I assume would filter higher frequency vibrations more so than my stiffer leather cushions.



The best chest slam I've experienced was at a north Dallas GTG at thxman's house a couple of years ago. He has a fantastic HT in a smallish closed room (maybe 1500 cuft) on the second floor. Great conditions for ULF TR, but I'm not sure how much this helps chest slam. His subs were two Seaton F18 Master/Slave pairs (total of 4 x 18" sealed) with one pair at the front of the room, and the 2nd pair immediately behind his second row recliners. The only transducers I was aware of were his 3 front row DBOX seats - his DBOX was pretty amazing, but it's a different animal than the TR we're talking about here.



The demo clip I remember most from the GTG was the opening scene of 'Unbroken'. When the flak started exploding around the WWII bomber we were placed in, it was the most intense chest slam I had ever experienced. It literally felt like someone took a heavy flat seat cushion and swung it as hard as he could flush against my back. My entire upper body felt like it moved an inch or two. The first time thru this clip I was sitting in a 2nd row recliner a foot or two from one of the rear subs. I assumed the TR from the subs was pushing the seatback which in turn was pushing me. However the second time thru the same clip, I moved to sitting on the rear seat's riser off to one side (a couple of feet further away from the subs), with only my butt and feet touching anything. I still felt the same (almost) intense slam across my back. The only way my upper body could have felt the slam this time was directly from the subs' shockwave.



I guess what I'm saying is good chest slam has to start with a percussive sound intensity wave that penetrates into your body and then generates natural resonances from within using your internal body cavities, as opposed to vibrations that are generated externally and then mechanically transferred to your body. I have no scientific proof of this, but I have read similar descriptions elsewhere, and this also seems to explain the differences I have felt myself.


I think @mthomas47 has done a great job in his guide about different types of TR. What you are referring to is mid bass TR there is still ULF wobble and TR that I think the BOSS excels at and so do the crowsons.


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post #327 of 543 Old 11-14-2019, 09:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imureh View Post
I think @mthomas47 has done a great job in his guide about different types of TR. What you are referring to is mid bass TR there is still ULF wobble and TR that I think the BOSS excels at and so do the crowsons.


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I agree completely with what you're saying about the BOSS's LF and ULF benefits. In fact I already have all of the components to build my own BOSS mini-riser. I was only trying to address the higher frequency BOSS limitations that SBuger and Tim were discussing earlier.
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post #328 of 543 Old 11-14-2019, 09:53 PM
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I agree that the vibration at high frequency by boss (>50hz) is nowhere close to the chest slam felt from the sub/mbm pressurization.
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post #329 of 543 Old 11-14-2019, 09:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darrellh44 View Post
I agree completely with what you're saying about the BOSS's LF and ULF benefits. In fact I already have all of the components to build my own BOSS mini-riser. I was only trying to address the higher frequency BOSS limitations that SBuger and Tim were discussing earlier.


Cool. I am sure you will love it. My next quest would be the chest slam. I am quite limited for placing any subs VNF and also don’t want anything that takes away the SQ of my FV18s.


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post #330 of 543 Old 11-14-2019, 11:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darrellh44 View Post
I'd like to share my brief TR experiences and why I agree with SBuger that BOSS platforms do not provide good mid-bass chest slam, or reproduce higher frequency TR in general.

I went to Tim's house several months ago while traveling thru central Louisiana and was able to try out his main BOSS riser and mini-riser BOSS platforms with several demo clips. On some material his BOSS's were incredible and seemed very natural - even my wife was very impressed, and she's not HT savvy or cares very much at all (she even tries to get away with calling my 'man cave' her 'she-shed' instead). On other clips I guess I experienced the gimmicky TR - it was just too easy to tell the vibrations were coming from somewhere under my seat instead of occurring 'organically'. Looking back, it was probably the clips with higher frequency content that seemed gimmicky. Also Tim's sofas had fairly soft cloth cushions that I assume would filter higher frequency vibrations more so than my stiffer leather cushions.

The best chest slam I've experienced was at a north Dallas GTG at thxman's house a couple of years ago. He has a fantastic HT in a smallish closed room (maybe 1500 cuft) on the second floor. Great conditions for ULF TR, but I'm not sure how much this helps chest slam. His subs were two Seaton F18 Master/Slave pairs (total of 4 x 18" sealed) with one pair at the front of the room, and the 2nd pair immediately behind his second row recliners. The only transducers I was aware of were his 3 front row DBOX seats - his DBOX was pretty amazing, but it's a different animal than the TR we're talking about here.

The demo clip I remember most from the GTG was the opening scene of 'Unbroken'. When the flak started exploding around the WWII bomber we were placed in, it was the most intense chest slam I had ever experienced. It literally felt like someone took a heavy flat seat cushion and swung it as hard as he could flush against my back. My entire upper body felt like it moved an inch or two. The first time thru this clip I was sitting in a 2nd row recliner a foot or two from one of the rear subs. I assumed the TR from the subs was pushing the seatback which in turn was pushing me. However the second time thru the same clip, I moved to sitting on the rear seat's riser off to one side (a couple of feet further away from the subs), with only my butt and feet touching anything. I still felt the same (almost) intense slam across my back. The only way my upper body could have felt the slam this time was directly from the subs' shockwave.

I guess what I'm saying is good chest slam has to start with a percussive sound intensity wave that penetrates into your body and then generates natural resonances from within using your internal body cavities, as opposed to vibrations that are generated externally and then mechanically transferred to your body. I have no scientific proof of this, but I have read similar descriptions elsewhere, and this also seems to explain the differences I have felt myself.
Thanks for the great post Darrell!! Awesome that you got to check out Tim’s BOSS’s and theater, as well as the thxman’s setup!! Sounds like both gave some awesome and very memorable experiences

Thanks for sharing your experiences with the chest punch and TR!! I can’t say for sure because I’ve only experienced my BOSS (when I had my full size riser on iso’s in BOSS form), but I would think that on “most” seating that is leather and stiffer like my HT seats and most other HT seating (like yours probably), the vibrations from the higher frequency mid bass chest punch range (~45 to 80hz) would just be too overbearing and with no SPL (which BOSS in not supposed to have), would struggle to deliver the kind of actual chest punch that high SPL and or Particle Velocity (from a VNF sub parked right behind you) can deliver, like you experienced at thxman’s theater. (Sorry, that felt like a major run on sentence but had a lot I wanted to say in it LOL) Maybe it can, but just doesn’t make sense to me. I’m sure the vibrations can somewhat simulate and or fool you into thinking its hard-hitting mid bass chest slam (if it doesn’t feel too gimmicky). Tim seems to love it on his softer style seats, so I’m not saying it’s not happening or possible. It gives him what he wants in that midbass area and that’s what’s important. I think we may be talking about a different type of midbass feel here. But then again, maybe not LOL

But yeah for me, that mid bass chest slam that you can really feel “HAS” to come from a sub or MBM right behind me, not BOSS. My SubRiser, not BOSS because its sealed setting on the ground with no isos, can help and has SPL to go with it. But is just too much vibration in those higher mid bass frequencies in my seats. Too much vibration when it was in BOSS form with isolators too. So VNF it is for me, plus the other subs do help too, especially at higher SPL’s.

I get pretty darn good chest slam now, but still not as hardcore as when I ran the MBM stacked on top of my 18” right behind my non reclining MLP seat in my last setup. You may remember me talking about it at some point that is was so lethal feeling that it would make my chest ache after a demo session (even short demo sessions). Its good now is probably about right, but I do miss that EXTREME violence in the chest cavity sometimes that I had before.

Chest slam can be such a wonderful and powerful thing if you can get it, but seems to be really hard to achieve for a lot of folks. It was talked about quite a lot in Dom’s Nearfield MBM thread a while back. I was a huge participant in that awesome thread back then LOL Some could get loads of it from the MBMs positioned behind them while others still didn’t feel much at all. I would think that ULF TR would be the hardest to get, but it seems that “that” kind of chest slam can be hard to get too.

So, there’s that on actual chest slam coming from those midbass frequencies in the 45-80hz area. But since we are on the subject of chest slam or “feel in the chest” there is something I’d like to through out there as well that I find can “almost feel” like chest slam. I know its not actual chest slam, but it kind of feels like it in a super cool kind of way. What I’m talking about here is the feel from the BK LFE’s in their wheelhouse of power, which is 12-30hz or so. I don’t know if its my seating style and or reclined position (or both maybe), but on a lot of material that has super strong content in this area (and presented a certain way), I swear I feel it in the chest (and gut area) almost like actual chest slam in a way. And this is coming from the extreme power of the BK LFE’s all working together. I ABSOLUTELY LOVE this feel. It makes me almost feel panicky and spikes the adrenalin with its intensity. It’s a sharp and powerful feeling in the chest area (as well as gut and even the groin area) that is hard to explain, combined with a seat dropping out from under you kind of feel. Somewhat like going over the end of the “Log Ride at a fun park” when you drop down (or even over the top of a roller coaster and start back down). LOL that might not sound enjoyable, but for me, it makes all the difference in the world for that super intense and awesome TR experience that I love so much. The BOSS (when I ran it with no isos) could bring this feel pretty good at times as well as the way I have it now as a SubRiser not on isos. So can the MAs. But the BK LFE’s just seem to bring this feel like CRAZY and is one of the things I love so much about them. Super cool stuff when combined with actual chest slam (and LF) coming from the VNFs.

Anyway, I’m getting carried away here again with descriptions, but thought some may find that interesting about the BK LFEs and may even experience that same sort of feeling from them. @Nalleh or anyone else, do you ever experience that same type of feel that I tried to explain from your BK LFEs?

Again, thanks for the post man, great stuff!!!

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Last edited by SBuger; 11-15-2019 at 12:04 AM.
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