The Tactile Response Thread for BASS :)) - Page 117 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #3481 of 4257 Old 05-31-2020, 04:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalleh View Post
First of all, i know we use a certain way of showing graphs in REW, but it seems that linear and 1x zoom has been the normal way of showing VS, so if you could keep it like that, it would be easier to compare.
Shoot, I didn't realize I had done two different scales like that. That was a mistake while sorting through readings and taking screenshots

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Originally Posted by Nalleh View Post
I am assuming X is still forward/backwards. If so, Z and X line up pretty good too
Yeah, but I still can't help but feel like the recliner was robbing some Z axis and converting it into that X axis and other distortion higher up. Too bad VS doesn't do a sum like Viberry, right?

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Originally Posted by Nalleh View Post
Yes, about the recliner. Back when i first got my MA’s, i had single seat recliners with tilt/rocking AND swing !! And as such it was MUCH less precise in movement in any direction. When the MA’s gave a big transient, the seat would swing !!! So optimally a TR seat should have neither! My current recliner couch isn’t any thing spesial, it was actually very cheap, but the couch itself seems to hold up rather good with all the vibrations. BUT i do have it bolted down to the MDF sheet under it so it wouldn’t move. In my case, the various noise/rattlings come from the sleds somehow. So a VERY sturdy plattform is also important
Well, I found an old wooden chair in my basement, gave it a once over today and wood glued and clamped every bit of it that had any bit of creaking/movement, put some gasket tape under its legs and then used some metal L brackets to screw it down to the test platform. So while it isn't an ideal HT seat, it's now solid as a rock, and should be able to give very consistent VS results without major resonances, converting Z-axis movement to other axes, or any other major distortion! I also siliconed two of the smaller tubes into a stack and have that setting in the garage overnight, so tomorrow I'll have everything I need to do a full apples-to-apples comparison of efficiency, FR, and distortion testing for a whole multitude of different alignments, all under pretty much identical conditions! I'm not sure why I keep creating more work for myself, but it's all in the name of TR science!

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post #3482 of 4257 Old 05-31-2020, 05:44 PM
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Originally Posted by aron7awol View Post
I'm open to reason
The stuff going on here is so far beyond reason it isn't funny.

Michael
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post #3483 of 4257 Old 05-31-2020, 05:46 PM
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Originally Posted by SBuger View Post
Cool, enjoy your next installment of Star Wars tonight!!! I need to go through them all as well.
No matter how good the TR might be, there are some you should skip.

Michael
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post #3484 of 4257 Old 05-31-2020, 05:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Audiophile75 View Post
I was going to wait for the jbls to go on sale for $30 and buy 8 but I’m not that patient I guess,
There hasn't been a sale to $30 for a LONG time; BestBuy runs them at $65 periodically. There are other sources that have been mentioned in the JBL thread:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-d...y-bestbuy.html
Be careful of the weight you're hanging off the back of that couch. And make sure anything you put on that shelf is SECURELY fastened down.

Michael
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post #3485 of 4257 Old 05-31-2020, 09:08 PM
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I decided to run a quick 10Hz CEA-2010 burst to give the MMA one quick test before bed after getting the solid chair set up. I sat on the chair and just stuck the phone under me. BTW, checked noise floor again and it was below 1e-8.

SUPER low distortion!



How do the waveform views look?




Hmm, that looks almost EXACTLY like this (the signal):



WOW!!!
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post #3486 of 4257 Old 05-31-2020, 09:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Magly View Post
I think it's safe to say that the new HB is working
WOW the 3rd video you posted takes TR to a new level. The remote jumping out of the cup holder phew, it reminded me of good old days of BASS flapping the pants(now its chasing single digits to the max). Time for you to get a 5 point seat harness.

Awesome day for me, SpaceX launch followed by Magly's remote launch.
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what-i-d-do-differently-next-timehttps://www.avsforum.com/forum/19-ded...l#post55641388
Epson Projector Power Supply Failure.https://www.avsforum.com/forum/68-dig...lure-rate.html
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post #3487 of 4257 Old 06-01-2020, 07:48 AM
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The silicone between the tubes works perfectly. Update: it's starting to peel after some wear and tear, so it's probably not the ideal product to use. So for anyone who has the smaller tubes and is thinking about going to the bigger tubes, I think it's worth considering this approach with what you already have. All I did was run a bead of silicone along the top of one tube, put the other one on top and aligned them, then put a small box on top with a small amount of weight just to make sure I had a good seal all around, and let it set. It's really strong, and the silicone adheres and seals perfectly and has some flexibility.

Sexy outdoor photo shoot:





Edit: I ran another clean bead of silicone along the inside and added gasket tape to both sides.

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post #3488 of 4257 Old 06-01-2020, 11:09 AM
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I'm using log scale on all of these charts because it's the only way to see the markers in the single digits and show everything up to 50Hz, and that range is most important here given how flat the response is all the way down to 3Hz. The natural frequency of my mass sitting on the MMA is 4.7Hz, very similar to the 5.08Hz that I had calculated when choosing springs based on an estimated 250lb total mass and 660 lb/in spring rate. This can be adjusted up and down by changing spring rate, and I'll probably adjust it down a bit further eventually.

Here's a 3-50Hz sweep I took last night. Keep in mind this is a native sweep with LPF+rolloffcomp, no added LS at all! No wonder why when I added the 9dB of 10Hz LS I broke something!



I got more curious about the noise floor so I decided to test it without me in the chair and with me in the chair. This was me being absolutely as still as I could be. It's really interesting to see how much noise comes from breathing and a normal heart beat at 1-2Hz.




I also did some testing with CEA-2010 bursts to see how low I could feel it. I kept going lower and lower and I can feel it all the way down to 1Hz! All feeling wonderfully linear the entire time.

I then did a 2Hz burst and measured it with VS. For this measurement, keep in mind that the noise floor on the Z-axis with me perfectly still was above 1e-6, but the Y-axis noise floor was much better, in between 1e-7 and 1e-6. With that in mind, looking at this burst and seeing the Z-axis spike at 4-5Hz, but no such spike on the Y-axis, we see that the movement is really clean, there's just Z-axis noise (shown nicely on the waveform on the raw graph) mixing in. Looking at the Y-axis where the noise floor was so much lower, the burst looks incredibly clean, and it feels as good as it looks there. For good measure, I'll also show the tilt waveform, which looks just as good.





I didn't push it too hard here, I was afraid to cook the coil and I wasn't sure how much the amp could give at these frequencies before distorting the waveform.
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post #3489 of 4257 Old 06-01-2020, 11:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aron7awol View Post
before distorting the waveform.
Or the chair.

When you're done (or some time before that, for those of us who might be interesting in playing along), could you put together a Dummies guide to MMA for those of us who really don't have a clue what you're doing?
Michael
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post #3490 of 4257 Old 06-01-2020, 11:38 AM
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@LastButNotLeast , it goes crawl, walk, run, fly, launch humans into outerspace, MMA, in that order.

Edit: Or I guess you could potentially combine the last two on the list...
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post #3491 of 4257 Old 06-01-2020, 11:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post
Or the chair.

When you're done (or some time before that, for those of us who might be interesting in playing along), could you put together a Dummies guide to MMA for those of us who really don't have a clue what you're doing?
Michael
There is a top plate and a bottom plate (made of plywood in this build) separated by 4 springs, one in each corner. The cone and thus the voice coil is bolted through multiple small pieces of plywood (the combined height of them being the right amount to center the voice coil at the center point of the springs) drilled perfectly plumb to the bottom plate, and the basket is screwed to the top plate. The voice coil stays still because it is bolted to the bottom plate, and so the rest of the motor pushes and pulls the top plate up and down with itself, so it's essentially functioning in kind of the opposite way of a speaker (where the voice coil moves). The springs support the weight, keep things pretty plumb and level, allow the motion to be nice and linear, and are "tuned" at 4.7Hz with my load in this particular build, so there's additional native output centered at that frequency.

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post #3492 of 4257 Old 06-01-2020, 01:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aron7awol View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post
Or the chair. [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/eek.gif[/IMG]

When you're done (or some time before that, for those of us who might be interesting in playing along), could you put together a Dummies guide to MMA for those of us who really don't have a clue what you're doing?
Michael
There is a top plate and a bottom plate (made of plywood in this build) separated by 4 springs, one in each corner. The cone and thus the voice coil is bolted through multiple small pieces of plywood (the combined height of them being the right amount to center the voice coil at the center point of the springs) drilled perfectly plumb to the bottom plate, and the basket is screwed to the top plate. The voice coil stays still because it is bolted to the bottom plate, and so the rest of the motor pushes and pulls the top plate up and down with itself, so it's essentially functioning in kind of the opposite way of a speaker (where the voice coil moves). The springs support the weight, keep things pretty plumb and level, allow the motion to be nice and linear, and are "tuned" at 4.7Hz with my load in this particular build, so there's additional native output centered at that frequency.
I think we REALLY need some pics!

Like what's attached to what etc. A drawing would also go a long way 😁
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post #3493 of 4257 Old 06-01-2020, 01:16 PM
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Originally Posted by kane7 View Post
I think we REALLY need some pics!
I posted photos of how I epoxied a T-nut in the center of a circular plate, and how I screwed that to the cone/VC.

Here's a shot of the plywood "spacer block" that is bolted through from the bottom plate to the T-nut. IIRC they totaled 2-1/8" just for the spacers (they are small scrap pieces that I had), that doesn't include the height of the circular plate with the T-nut. I made it modular in this manner so that if I change springs or otherwise want to change the center point of the voice coil, I can adjust that spacer block height by adding, removing, or swapping out different height spacers.

There's a bolt (its head recessed in the bottom of the bottom plate) going through the bottom plate, the spacer block, and then threading into the T-nut, holding the voice coil in place.



Edit: I pulled it apart as part of my testing today, so here are a couple more photos of the spacer block and bolt:



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post #3494 of 4257 Old 06-01-2020, 01:49 PM
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Let me see if I got this right:
The whole rig is resting on the springs at jbl's X=0?
The "cone" rests on the floor, suspended by the springs to voicecoils X=0?
The basket is attached to the boss, furniture or whatever's on the top?
The motion is created by the basket since the cone is resting on the floor and will stay there because of the springs?
If negative X the furniture will move down and up with positive X?
The cone acts like a static piston and the basket (and everything attached to it) as a moving cylinder?
This is how I picture it, am I close?😀
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post #3495 of 4257 Old 06-01-2020, 02:02 PM
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^^^ Pretty much, yes. Compression of the springs varies by weight, of course, but I chose the spacer size and spring rate to try to account for a reasonable range of weights while keeping the coil close to center. I think with my weight, I have something like 12mm of travel upward and 11mm of travel downward, so it's certainly really close, and if my wife sits on it, I expect it to be something like 11mm upward and 12mm downward.

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post #3496 of 4257 Old 06-01-2020, 03:26 PM
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OK. It's been 2 hours since Aron posted his pic and no comments? Shelby and Nalleh must be in the garage/theater modifying their setups already!
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post #3497 of 4257 Old 06-01-2020, 03:35 PM
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OK. It's been 2 hours since Aron posted his pic and no comments? Shelby and Nalleh must be in the garage/theater modifying their setups already!
This pic does help to understand things better. Very cool!
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post #3498 of 4257 Old 06-01-2020, 03:46 PM
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I mean really starting at the beginning.
This helped me get a grasp of what's going on:


I will continue to follow along in my own mentally challenged manner.
Michael
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post #3499 of 4257 Old 06-01-2020, 04:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by zeus33 View Post
OK. It's been 2 hours since Aron posted his pic and no comments? Shelby and Nalleh must be in the garage/theater modifying their setups already!
Well, actually I’ve been working on adding 3 more 18’s to my HoverBOSS today because I feel like I need a little more!!

HAHAHAHA …just kidding. BUT, I’ve got 3 sealed 18’s (2 UM-18’s and one more SI DS4-18) just setting there in my room now doing nothing. Well, the one up front is, but I just barely have it running and don’t even really need it and doesn’t add much, if any at all since I have to keep it so low. Somehow the HB’s are totally covering all the SPL needed in spades. So, it has crossed my mind already that maybe I should hook them up as Hover as well, open baffle, or on the seat-backs in place of the JBLs (although they are probably too darn heavy for that). Kind of seems a waste that 3 great subs are just setting there collecting dust.

LOL …nah I just need to enjoy what I got going for a while and no more moding If one allows it, the game is NEVER over!!!

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post #3500 of 4257 Old 06-01-2020, 04:58 PM
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Here's a CAD sketch of MMA 2.0 (build in progress)

Top and bottom plates in yellow
Springs in white
BK LFE in blue
Riser in red
Bolt/rod & Nuts in green



Take the Red Pill (BassEQ) BassEQ Demo Clips TR Curves
Video: Sony 85" X900F @ 80" eyes-to-screen (49.4° viewing angle)
Audio: Denon AVR-X4400H 7.2.4 Atmos
Mains: Fusion-15 LR, Fusion-8 Center, Ported Volt-10 Surrounds, Custom 45°/45° Double-Angled Ported Volt-6 Atmos
Subs: The Two Towers (HT18 32cf 11.5Hz x 2), UM18 4cf x 2, Crowson MAs x 4

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post #3501 of 4257 Old 06-01-2020, 05:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aron7awol View Post
BK LFE in blue
Now you (probably) understand my confusion. I thought you were doing this with a SPEAKER.

Somehow, I missed that minor detail.

Michael
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post #3502 of 4257 Old 06-01-2020, 05:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post
Now you (probably) understand my confusion. I thought you were doing this with a SPEAKER.

Somehow, I missed that minor detail.

Michael
Aron has evolved already
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Marantz 7011- Panasonic UB-820- Xbox One X -Nvidia Shield - JVC RS4910 * - Elite Screen's 2:35:1 AT 115' - PSA MTM 110's L/C/R -VOLT 6 Surrounds - Atmos: SVS Elevations Atmos X2, Volt 6 x 2- Dual PSA TV36 B&C Neo's *MiniDSP HD* Took the Red Pill BEQ *HOVER BOSS* UM-18, 2 JBL's, Maxxis Fat tubes, Behringer NX4-6000
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post #3503 of 4257 Old 06-01-2020, 05:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post
Now you (probably) understand my confusion. I thought you were doing this with a SPEAKER.

Somehow, I missed that minor detail.

Michael
His version 1 was a speaker. Version 2 is with a BK.
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post #3504 of 4257 Old 06-01-2020, 08:18 PM
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I'm more than willing to futz with a $30 speaker (which I already own). I am not, however, willing to turn it into an investment.
Still along for the ride, though.
Michael
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post #3505 of 4257 Old 06-01-2020, 08:36 PM
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Hard to follow this post fully but I’d like to know a little more that I’ve missed by not following every day, so from what I gather you guys have mumbled that you may not need subs in your room anymore which make me wonder?

1. What setup (HB or BB) gives what frequencies the best of the LFE band? Example: when I saw this post way back at page 100 or so you all were low passing the Boss platform at 30hz with a ls of +10 at 10hz for ULF. That was a long time ago now so Could you give a rundown on chest slam vs ULF and xo setting for a general setup now (what works best for what?).

2. Now that some of you have gone off the AVS deep end would you ever go back to a general setup you thought was really great and what was that setup? Or does it really keep getting better? Don’t answer that last Q.

3. I hate NF subs now (ears ring) and I’m not sure I’ve seen / heard many of you having them anymore, am I wrong? Are you still coupling these with NF?

I have two 15 Vx3 ordered for my BB and my six Devs play down to +/-20hz at +/-120db so I plan on just using these for <30hz surrounded by concrete but I like to keep my options open for different setup opportunities. Only problem is my wife doesn’t like it too hot so no deep end for me and I know my hide-a-bed couch needs to go too. Buy new subs??? Buy new couch/chair??? Keeping the learning curve going.....

Thank you, chad
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post #3506 of 4257 Old 06-01-2020, 09:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zeus33 View Post
Shelby and Nalleh must be in the garage/theater modifying their setups already!
LOL, there's no reason for them to change anything. I hope nobody thinks I'm crazy enough to think this humble MMA holds a candle to their epic rigs. The MMA is like a small boutique vehicle driving along, then their monster truck rigs enter the frame and crush it into a heap of metal!

One thing is for sure, though. I think simply incorporating these springs into some existing rigs is going to make for a major upgrade. But of course, you already know that And I know, I know, I still need to do all the testing I talked about so we have more data! Sometimes I wish days were longer.

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Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post
I'm more than willing to futz with a $30 speaker (which I already own). I am not, however, willing to turn it into an investment.
Still along for the ride, though.
Michael
I hear ya. I tried to do everything I could to make the build modular and reversible so that I wouldn't have to permanently sacrifice anything, but I'm willing to do that if I have to. I figured even if I disassembled this first test MMA, having the plate with the T-nut would also be useful if I wanted to do some testing with adding weight to increase moving mass

It probably helped that I had 20 JBLs sitting in boxes in my basement, too.
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Video: Sony 85" X900F @ 80" eyes-to-screen (49.4° viewing angle)
Audio: Denon AVR-X4400H 7.2.4 Atmos
Mains: Fusion-15 LR, Fusion-8 Center, Ported Volt-10 Surrounds, Custom 45°/45° Double-Angled Ported Volt-6 Atmos
Subs: The Two Towers (HT18 32cf 11.5Hz x 2), UM18 4cf x 2, Crowson MAs x 4

Last edited by aron7awol; 06-01-2020 at 09:18 PM.
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post #3507 of 4257 Old 06-01-2020, 09:20 PM
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Here's a piggyback idea for Aron's Mega MA using long steel plates as cantilevered 'leaf' springs instead of coil springs on each corner. This approach would give that cantilevered motion effect that many seem to prefer, and may also better hold lateral movement in check to minimize any voice coil rubbing.

The attached diagram shows what the side and top view of a cantilevered MMA might look like. At the front of the bottom plate, 2x4 spacers are used to cantilever the two leaf springs' steel plates over the bottom plate. The length of these 2x4 spacers can be varied to change the leaf springs' moment arm length of the as needed to get the desired spring rate. The two steel plates would then straddle the driver to support the top plate. The front-to-back dimension of the top plate is limited to just long enough to hold the driver in order to minimize its effect on the natural bending motion of the spring. Note the length 'L' of the springs' moment arm should be from the end of the front 2x4 spacer to the mid-point of the top plate.

I found the equation for determining the spring rate for a cantilevered rectangular plate here, and is given by:
Spring Rate = [E*w*t^3]/[4*L^3], where
E = 30 Msi (Elastic modulus for steel)
w = plate width
t = plate thickness
L = Length of cantilevered moment arm
If I'm plugging in the dimensions correctly, one 3" wide x 0.375" thick plate with a moment arm of 16" would result in a 1/2" deflection with a force of 144 lbs. Therefore two plates should get us close to the right range for one seat.

The best source I found so far for steel plates is Buymetal.com. They carry rectangular carbon steel plates in a variety of standard lengths, widths, and thicknesses. Custom lengths are also available. Two 30"x3"x3/8" thick plates (which might be appropriate for a MMA build) should cost less than $100.
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Last edited by darrellh44; 06-01-2020 at 09:33 PM.
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post #3508 of 4257 Old 06-01-2020, 10:06 PM
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Aron has evolved already

And keeps evolving...like lawn mower man!!!!
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post #3509 of 4257 Old 06-02-2020, 01:40 AM
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^^^If I follow things, you have created a metal platform with 4 springs located in each corner replacing the air-filled inter-tubes. The springs are carrying/creating the isolation field or platform. Then you have mounted the BK to the suspended platform such that it acts as the motor driver between the suspended/isolated platform and the floor? I'm still not sure I followed all the pics you posted earlier for the BK mods but that's the picture in my head.

Nice! I'd had been wondering if one could replace the intertubes with carefully tensioned springs to create a more reliable platform that does not go flat. The challenge is finding the right spring size and weight limit for the sum of the platform, chair and target body weight. I have used anti-vibration isolation mounts to suspend a dehumidifier in my basement / sealed crawl-space. It reduces the noise/vibration being transmitted to the floor I-beams. For those setups, they already tell you the spring carrying capacity.. so maybe that makes it easier to implement... ?

Isolation dampers have been used in building and HVAC industries for years to isolate motors, compressors, transformers from the floor or ceiling. NICE! He's re-imagined their use to create an isolation field / platform and is then using the BKLFE to induce vibration into that platform - which is the opposite of how they are normally used! Killer clever and NICE, very NICE!

Always be looking across other trades and industries to solve challenges! Again, very astute!
He is substantially increasing the reliability of the solution by removing the air filling bike inter-tubes with this iteration. (At least that's what I think is in play....) Tell me if I'm wrong or am missing the bigger picture! Mason industries made the hanger isolation units I used and they were quite reasonable. IDK about the heavier full platforms.

Essentially you are doing something like these and then using the BKE as a varying frequency controlled vibration motor!:

a > https://mason-ind.com/spring-isolators/
b > https://kineticsnoise.com/hvac/spring_isolators.html
c > https://www.globalindustrial.com/g/f...-spring-mounts
d > https://antivibration-systems.com/product/vibro-ms/

@aron7awol - Awesome - way to go outta the box! Kudos
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Last edited by gattaca; 06-02-2020 at 02:39 AM.
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post #3510 of 4257 Old 06-02-2020, 06:19 AM
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Originally Posted by aron7awol View Post
It probably helped that I had 20 JBLs sitting in boxes in my basement, too.
I just hope that this will be a parallel option: JBL for those of us with a couple of spares and LFE for extremists .
Thanks.
Michael
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