The Tactile Response Thread for BASS :)) - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 187Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 155 Old 07-31-2019, 11:37 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
SBuger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Land of Enchantment
Posts: 2,220
Mentioned: 343 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1199 Post(s)
Liked: 3805
The Tactile Response Thread for BASS :))

Got TR!!!????

Tactile Response in the Home Theater environment seems to really be catching on these days around here which is awesome!! Really glad to see it, as it can make such an amazing difference in the movie watching and bass experience IMO!!

There are lots of ways of getting great TR in your system these days and there is already a lot of amazing TR setups and systems around here and continuing to grow, especially lately. Still not quite sure how much interest there will be for a thread like this, but I thought maybe a thread dedicated to Tactile Response and related might be fun and helpful.

A place to post your TR system pics, videos, share info and experiences, ask questions about it or offer advice and even share your TR journey if you want. That sort of thing.

Anything Tactile or related (or even if it strays off course some like most threads do at times) is cool by me to talk about, whether it’s VNF (Very Near Field) Subs, NF (Near Field) Subs, or even FF (FarField) Subs if you think they really bring on the TR, Transducers or Crowson Motion Actuators, Shakers, the super popular new BOSS, or ...even D-box I guess (although I don’t know much at all about this last one). Even fans for wind effect on ULF content like I think a few members are doing around here (Like @Archaea ), or wind from ported subs of course. Pressure, Concrete Floors, Suspended Floors, Risers (any kind ...Sub Risers, Normal Risers, BOSS Risers or other), Seating, VibSensor stuff, you name it. Or heck, even if someone wants to strap on one of those TR Bass Vests that were joked about a while back, I'd love to hear about it!! LOL So, basically anything TR related with your system that helps bring you more enjoyment from these movie soundtracks (or whatever media your into).

If you want to share your pics, thoughts, story and whatever info you want to include about how and why you got into it, or even just your love and passion for TR, that’s cool too, feel free!! All levels and systems are welcome, from ultra noobs to seasoned vets with lots of experience, and all in between.

I’m cool with whatever you want to share and whatever kind and brand of subs or MBMs (DIY, ID or other ... (ported, sealed, horn, etc)), as well as any other TR components.

I know there are a few other threads around here (and really good ones, the threads like @dominguez1 's “Near Field Ported MBM Thread" and "ULF thread", as well as @coolrda ’s "VibSensor Thread") etc, as well as show off your system and subs threads, but thought there might be room for one more related thread geared towards Tactile Response.

Also, I'd just like to acknowledge that these guys did so much for TR around here with all their research and experimenting and I’m truly grateful they shared it with us all!!! I'd like to personally say THANK YOU!!! I feel like I learned a lot from these guys and they are a big part of what got me into Tactile Response. Unfortunately, I think TR is still kind of a new concept around here to most but is gaining ground lately like I mentioned above and more people are getting a taste of how great and important it can be, which is fantastic. Even with all the great findings that Dom and others discovered and shared, I think there it still more that can be learned about TR and applied. Hopefully we can all continue to learn, discover new and better ways of getting TR, and enjoy it even more in the Home Theater environment that we all love so much!!!

IMHO, great Tactile Response is only a part of the equation though for getting the best Home Theater experience possible for movie watching, but is a HUGE part of that equation and can make all the difference in the world for more realism and that truly EPIC experience if your into that. I’m really happy to see that TR is catching on around here more now and just how important TR can be. Whether you like just a little or a LOT of it, it can make a tremendous difference IME/O!!!

So that's about it I think. Here are a handful of links to some of those fantastic threads I mentioned that might be useful as well if anyone needs them and are chalk full of great information regarding TR and BASS.

Links:
The ULF Thread (great thread with a lot of TR talk and info along the way)
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...l#post23676011

Shakers - Simple Hookup Guide (great for helping get your TTs and shakers up and running)
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...ual-guide.html

The Nearfield MBM TR Thread (killer thread for that midbass TR and chest slam)
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...-response.html

The Crowson MA Thread (yup ..gotta love them Crowson MAs!!!)
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...rs-thread.html

The VibSensor Thread (Great thread as well for checking your TR, fine-tuning, etc)
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...st-thread.html

The BOSS Thread (awesome thread where the new BOSS TR system was born with all the info you need if you want one in your system!!) The BOSS is getting super popular and for good reason!! Check it out if you haven't already!!
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/19-de...y-theater.html

And of course the BEQ Thread (Bass EQ for filtered movies) that helps utilize your awesome ULF TR and BASS rig to its fullest in FULL BANDWIDTH glory on almost ALL movies and has been a TOTAL game changer for us ULF TR and BASS movie lovers/junkies.
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...ed-movies.html

Also here are a few common acronyms that may be helpful when talking about all this stuff.

Common Acronyms:
TR = Tactile Response (of course )
FR= Frequency Response
ULF = Ultra Low Frequency
LF = Low Frequency
MB = Mid Bass
BEQ = BassEQ
FF = Far Field
NF = Near Field
VNF = Very Near Field
MBM = Mid Bass Module
TT = Tactile Transducer
MA = Motion Actuator (like Crowson MA)
BOSS = Baffle Open Sub Shaker
PV = Particle Velocity
VS = VibSensor
I’m sure there are way more but all I can think of for now.

Any suggestions for this thread are welcomed! Enjoy, hopefully this can be cool thread for Tactile Response

My "Blacked Out" Home Theater Room
1400cuft Sealed Room on Suspended Floor | SY Triple Black Velvet Blackout | GIK Treatments | Denon AVR-X6300H - 7.6.4 Atmos | KEF Q Series Speakers | Epson 5040UB 4K | Eyes 7' to 120" AT Seymour Screen | Oppo UDP-203 | Xbox One X | Apple TV 4K | 6x 18" Sealed DIY Subs | 6x Crowson MAs | 4x BK LFEs | BOSS 'Sub Riser' w/ 6x JBL-12s | MiniDSP 10x10HD

Last edited by SBuger; 08-02-2019 at 12:47 PM.
SBuger is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 155 Old 07-31-2019, 11:38 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
SBuger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Land of Enchantment
Posts: 2,220
Mentioned: 343 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1199 Post(s)
Liked: 3805
Reserved for whatever may be needed ...

My "Blacked Out" Home Theater Room
1400cuft Sealed Room on Suspended Floor | SY Triple Black Velvet Blackout | GIK Treatments | Denon AVR-X6300H - 7.6.4 Atmos | KEF Q Series Speakers | Epson 5040UB 4K | Eyes 7' to 120" AT Seymour Screen | Oppo UDP-203 | Xbox One X | Apple TV 4K | 6x 18" Sealed DIY Subs | 6x Crowson MAs | 4x BK LFEs | BOSS 'Sub Riser' w/ 6x JBL-12s | MiniDSP 10x10HD
SBuger is offline  
post #3 of 155 Old 07-31-2019, 11:41 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
SBuger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Land of Enchantment
Posts: 2,220
Mentioned: 343 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1199 Post(s)
Liked: 3805
So with all that out of the way, I’ll go first I guess since I thought this might be a good idea for a thread (lol) and give a bit of my story, some pics, some graphs, and some thoughts about TR etc.

** warning ...kind of a long post but hopefully won’t be too boring!

As some of you may know already, I’m a pretty serious TR junkie!!!! I just LOVE LOVE LOVE me some TR and LOTS of it!!! But that said, I still want it to feel as realistic and natural as possible, from super subtle to FULL ON shake you silly and rattle your fillings loose when called for, and of course everything in between. I love the experience that great TR can bring to movie watching, demoing, gaming etc. Without it, it’s just nowhere near as fun and exhilarating for me and is what has driven me to try to push the envelope with it to see what is possible.

So here’s a bit of my journey for finding that TR glory

I had a few other little systems prior to the one I have now, but didn’t know much at all about this stuff, much less what TR was. I just know I loved it!! But then got more serious about HT setup in my current house and set it up as good as I could in the living room. I started with a Rythmik FV15HP and some Polk speakers. Was pretty good for starters but as we all know, the thirst for more grabs a hold of you and doesn’t let go LOL

I started listening louder and louder and started getting uncomfortable on the ears trying to get more slam and shake. Plus, just the one little 15” sub placed FarField was never going to cut it by itself in a huge open area for what I wanted. But gotta start somewhere.

Next I got a JTR cap 2400 (earlier amped version) to accompany it about 4 years ago. Big improvement with two subs. THEN it happened, I discovered what placing a sub right behind my seat could do after seeing what guys like Archaea, carp, dominguez1 and a few others were doing around here. BINGO, now we were getting somewhere!!! Could not believe what it did and gave me a big taste of that feel I had been chasing, even at lower listening levels. A TOTAL game changer for me and I’m sure you can all imagine what happened from here LOL. Yep ..I wanted MORE of it and so then the chase really began. Learning REW of course and what FR and sub placement was all about helped too. I jumped in head first and soaked up and experimented with it all as much as I could. Then eventually got into Crowson MAs, BK LFEs and then building my own 18” subs. Well, AIY subs, but close enough for me. Between these TR components and the mix of Very Near Field sub placement (along with a VNF MBM right behind me chest high as well when Dom’s thread was going nutz), along with FarField and well, things came together really well after a LOT of experimenting and fine tuning. It was tons of fun and I feel like I learned so much about it all along the way and allowed me to pretty much get exactly what I was looking for, which was some pretty crazy chest pounding, body and bone rattling TR and Bass that was super satisfying, in a huge open area, even at moderate listening levels. That system had some pretty insane feeling Bass and TR I must say and gave me tons of enjoyment!!!

Here are a few pics of that setup that I had down in my living room

This first pic is one of my first attempts at getting that crazy super nearfield experience when I finally got 2 subs and stacked them behind me with a Rythmik FV15HP and JTR cap2400. I needed one up front as well, but was fun to stack them both behind me for a crazy demo day!! This was quite the experience and I still vividly remember it as one of the crazies, coolest bass and TR beatings I've ever had with Max Mad Fury Road cranked up Plus I had the Crowson MAs and BK LFE's in the mix too at the time. The MAs got too hot and went into protect mode though LOL MMFR is brutal can work the crap out of your gear if not careful!!!


And the BK LFEs mounted to the couch and a couple Crowson MAs as well. Man that couch was wicked for TR!!!! It had a lot of flex in that middle seat with it's light weight metal frame and those BK could work you over good because of it!! I loved it!!!


So then, I got the new subs built with one behind each seat, plus a FF sub upfront. Plus got things dialed in a lot better TR and FR wise which really helped.




But then after all that, I got the idea to move up into my 13 x 13 office room upstairs, because I've always wanted a dedicated room that I could do whatever I wanted without having to deal with WAF. This is the only room that that could happen in.

So it began again, I lugged all my gear upstairs and started experimenting to see if it would work out in such a small room. OH YEAH, sure enough did. It worked out great. I even did a comparison of suspended floor vs concrete HERE if anyone is interested. I have a little different thoughts on it now that I’ve been up in this room for a while now and probably need to update that thread more, but a lot of what I found out and posted in that comparison thread, I still feel the same way about. Plus all of the pics I posted aren't showing up right in that thread either because of the server they are on is not working. I'll try to get the images moved and working again as well.

So, once I knew that room would work, I ran a pretty mean Bass and TR config with a single seat in the middle sweet spot until I got more seats in the room. I ran 3 sealed 18” subs surrounding me just as close as I could get them VNF style, plus another 18” sub up front behind the the drop down projector screen, plus dual Crowson MAs + dual BK LFEs bolted to the single recliner + being on a suspended floor. Yes , LOTS of TR and was tons of fun!!!

Here are a few pics of that setup before I blacked out all the walls and got serious with Atmos and all that with a full dedicated HT setup.

Here's the sweet spot where I would park my old one recliner chair until I could get some good HT seats in there. Me and coolrda use to call it the “The Kill Box” area LOL. He had a very similar setup with a 24” sub parked right behind him instead of an 18” like I was using, with MAs as well, but no BK LFEs


And with the recliner in position


And then getting closer to getting the setup put together with the big screen mounted for that awesome HT bass & TR experience


Then BOOM!! Go time, even got some black velvet put up at this point for some great picture quality. Man them were some awesome times being surrounded by all those subs, TTs and MAs setting that close to the screen for the first time in this new room. My dream was finally coming true for a dedicated HT space!! LOL


So yeah, that was super fun, but needed to start the process of finishing it out. So, eventually added 3 new seats and built two more 18" sealed subs to go behind all 3 seats, plus more Crowson MAs and BK LFEs for the other seats as well, plus Atmos. I enjoyed it quiet a while like this and then added in the BOSS for more TR most recently. I really loved what I already had going with the TR, but had to at least try it. I love experimenting, especially with TR! I ended up trying about 4 different versions of it. I love the BOSS and so I added it permanently to my system in conjunction with all the other TR components. I ended up liking BOSS setup a little differently than most by just setting the BOSS on the floor using the flooring carpet and pad to mostly seal it seal it, making it more like a sub riser instead of open baffle with no isolators under it (I actually LOVE it like this, and seems to work better in my system than with isos under the platform. I know crazy right!?). I do run 4 on top of the riser though on the back of the seating in between the Crowson MAs that seems to work fantastic.

So now 6x 18" subs with 3 of them spread around the room and 3 of them VNF behind each seat, + 6 Crowson MAs, + 4 BK LFEs, + BOSS (in “Sub Riser form") loaded with 6 JBL 12” woofers that the seats sit on (2 JBL's under each seat in a 6" x 30" by 8' platform riser.

Pretty crazy I guess with running all these TR components combined, but it works very well and give the best of all worlds IMO. I love how they all contribute in their own way with their strengths and combine as one. To me, it feels amazing. It can feel pretty darn ferocious too when it needs to be and gives me about all I could ever wish for TR wise. I enjoy the heck out of it and brings me many hours of joy in the HT room!! Super fun stuff with BEQ (BassEQ for filtered movies) that makes pretty much all movies Full Bandwidth all the way down deep into the digits. It’s a great time to have a ULF TR capable system and so worth it with BEQ in town now if you’re a movie and ULF TR lover!!! Good times for sure!!! If you haven't checked out BEQ yet, get on it if you like Full Band bass like The Incredible Hulk etc!!

So here's a few pics of the latest TR setup. First without seats to show the SubRiser with the 12" JBLs loaded in it and 6 Crowson MA locations as well, and then with seats. The VNF subs are actually raised up higher now than in pics with no seats to fire more into the seat backs for more feel since my subriser is about 6" higher. Loosing that 6" distance from form the seatback to the driver lost a lot of feel from the subs. So raised them back up, and back in business. BIG time difference in feel!! Even with all the other TR components I run, there is a reason I'll never be without VNF subs. I love them and always will!! Same with BK LFE's, Crowson MAs, and now the BOSS too. The combo is magic to me and gives so much flexibility help you get what you want out of it all. Yes it takes some times to get it all setup and tuned, but once you do, its so worth it!!!

Pics for seats ready to be mounted on top of SubRiser...

A previous version with only 3 JBLs


I also tried my 18's mounted cantilevered directly behind my seats for BOSS as well (HAD to try it out of curiosity!!), but ended up liking the JBL 12's mounted under me in the SubRiser setting on the floor with no Isolators better. Go figure ...crazy!!


So, then final version with 6JBL mounted into the platform for underneath the seating


And a shot of the VNF subs raised to firing into the seat backs


And a view from under the middle MLP seat from the front showing the BK LFEs, one of the rear JBLs 12's in the platform/riser and an 18" SI DS4-18 driver firing into the seat back. I don't think you can see the Crowson MAs though, but they are right there close to the BKs under the inner seat feet.


For a couple graphs, here’s my FR that I’m currently running and a couple VibSensor graphs of just the BOSS SubRiser + Crowson MAs. I don’t don't think I have any VS reading yet of all combined yet with the VNFs and BKs in the mix. But this will give you an idea of the kind of TR it’s capable of hitting. It gets up around 1e+01 at ref bass levels. Not to shabby at all! Pretty brutal actually!!

Current FR with Sub Riser in the Mix with pretty good extension into the singles which is cool.

RED = All subs + CC crossed at 90hz …


And then some VibSensor graphs with 0-50hz White Noise and EOT intro. EOT intro is about as brutal of material as you can get for VSing and putting your gear through the ringer (hopefully not killing any of it). BUT, the BOSS sitting on the floor as a sealed sub riser with 6 JBL 12's seemed to just rip right through it with ease, and even had more in the tank than this, but didn’t really want to push it too much more. The last 2 tones of the EOT intro are about 10db hotter than most ref material and hits up around -5db signal levels on the last 2-3 notes/sines of 20hz, 15hz, then 10hz, and is one of the reasons EOT is considered dangerous. But it is definitely a great one to show your TR power in these 5 distinct frequencies though, reading from right to left ….30hz, 25hz, 20hz, 15hz, and lastly that insane 10hz blast. IMO the BOSS (even by itself) and with MAs too just crushed it, touching up around 1e+01. That is some pretty hardcore TR right there by any TR junkies’ standards I think and was cool to see. But what is also cool to see, is that it follows the source (PVA – the actual frequency graph of that particular EOT time stamp too). Very cool!!!!

White Noise: (left) EOT Intro: (right) Both with BOSS/sealed 'SubRiser' + MAs only around ref levels with a 5 lb bag of rice to weight the phone from bouncing up off the seating. MAs only contributing a little bit here with SubRiser doing most of it. Doesn't show much single digit TR on the 0-50hz white noise file (drops off hard below about 10hz), but is a known problem with VibSensor with a weight that reads more accurately in the 10-30hz region. No biggy though, TR is real strong below 10hz as well from the BOSS and especially the Crowson MAs (where the MAs really excel!).


Ok so there is my TR journey up to the present. A lot more pics and stuff in my room thread if you want to see more. Hope you all enjoyed and please feel free to post away with your pics, experiences, love of TR and all of that good stuff etc.

Cheers TR lovers!!

My "Blacked Out" Home Theater Room
1400cuft Sealed Room on Suspended Floor | SY Triple Black Velvet Blackout | GIK Treatments | Denon AVR-X6300H - 7.6.4 Atmos | KEF Q Series Speakers | Epson 5040UB 4K | Eyes 7' to 120" AT Seymour Screen | Oppo UDP-203 | Xbox One X | Apple TV 4K | 6x 18" Sealed DIY Subs | 6x Crowson MAs | 4x BK LFEs | BOSS 'Sub Riser' w/ 6x JBL-12s | MiniDSP 10x10HD

Last edited by SBuger; 08-01-2019 at 12:19 AM.
SBuger is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #4 of 155 Old 08-01-2019, 09:41 AM
Member
 
Bruce N's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Leesburg, Va
Posts: 81
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 37 Post(s)
Liked: 54

Processor: Anthem AVM-60 7.2.0
Amps: Rotel RB-1090, Rotel RMB-1095
Video: OPPO UDP-203, JVC DLA-RS600U, Silver Ticket 120" Screen
Speakers: 2-PSA MTM-210T L/R, PSA MTM-210C Center, 4-PSA MT110SR Surrounds
Subwoofers: 2-PSA S3611, MiniDSP 2x4HD
Bruce N is online now  
post #5 of 155 Old 08-01-2019, 12:00 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
SBuger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Land of Enchantment
Posts: 2,220
Mentioned: 343 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1199 Post(s)
Liked: 3805
^^ LOL that’s funny!!

I have a few more things/thoughts that I wanted to post as well when I get a chance about ULF and the different TR components etc, but just got way too late fast last night when working on putting this together. I think it was like 2 in the morning when I posted all this and was kind of delirious at that point lol

My "Blacked Out" Home Theater Room
1400cuft Sealed Room on Suspended Floor | SY Triple Black Velvet Blackout | GIK Treatments | Denon AVR-X6300H - 7.6.4 Atmos | KEF Q Series Speakers | Epson 5040UB 4K | Eyes 7' to 120" AT Seymour Screen | Oppo UDP-203 | Xbox One X | Apple TV 4K | 6x 18" Sealed DIY Subs | 6x Crowson MAs | 4x BK LFEs | BOSS 'Sub Riser' w/ 6x JBL-12s | MiniDSP 10x10HD
SBuger is offline  
post #6 of 155 Old 08-01-2019, 03:26 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
darrellh44's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: North Dallas
Posts: 1,558
Mentioned: 23 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1049 Post(s)
Liked: 511
Thanks for starting this thread @SBuger . Hopefully everyone will post their recent experiences here. I'd be particularly interested if anyone has hints on affecting TR at different frequencies by altering the delay/phase between multiple subs and also between sub/mains.
SBuger likes this.

darrellh44's Home Theater
Guide to Subwoofer Calibration and Bass Preferences

"Faith is not about everything turning out OK, Faith is being OK no matter how things turn out".
darrellh44 is offline  
post #7 of 155 Old 08-01-2019, 04:15 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
m0j0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Florida
Posts: 1,308
Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 512 Post(s)
Liked: 459
Very cool to see your TR journey and where you are at now! Thanks for sharing!
SBuger likes this.
m0j0 is offline  
post #8 of 155 Old 08-01-2019, 05:49 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
SBuger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Land of Enchantment
Posts: 2,220
Mentioned: 343 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1199 Post(s)
Liked: 3805
^^^Thanks guys!!!! I hope everyone will post their experiences too and get a lot of enjoyment out of this thread And of course help us learn more about TR and improve our systems as well!!!

Ok, so I wanted to share some of my thoughts and impressions on what I like most (strengths etc) about each of the different TR components that I run in my system and am familiar with. I didn't get it done the other night when I posted, as it was just too late like 2 in the morning or something.

There are TR components that I’ve never tried but heard very good things about like the Aura’s and Clark’s, but only have experience with the BK LFEs, Crowson MAs and now the BOSS. And of course the VNF, NF and FF Subs.

All working together as one, pulling from each of their strengths is where the real magic is at (at least for me). They can all be great on their own when set up well, but combing can give a great synergy effect for some amazing feeling TR for a best of all worlds kind of thing. Of course like anything else, they need to be optimized to work together to get the most out of it and feel right, like positioning, timing, phase, levels and so on.

So with that said, I’ll list what I like best about each of them. Let’s start with the subs first. Just to be clear, these are just my opinions and what I’ve found messing with them all in a couple differ setups. By no means do I claim to know it all!! I feel like I never stop learning in this awesome hobby!! So YMMV depending on the variables you have to work with. But I’m betting a lot of this will apply more often than not.

The FarField sub:
Gives the least amount of TR but almost a must IMO to get the best full sound, as well as that full bass feel with weight (and pressure as well in the right room).

The NearField sub:
Not to be confused with the Very Near Field subs that I’ll talk about next. The Near Field Sub I think is kind of a combo of the FF and VNF sub. Gives some real nice TR, more than the FF but still not nearly as much as the VNF. But it still sounds more like the FF sub with that weight and fuller sound, usually with extra TR, which is nice!

The Very Near Field sub:
With the driver at least about 3” or closer to your seat back by my definition. The closer the better. Every inch farther away and you lose TR and that overall slam feel from it fast. The main issue (at least in my findings), is that the Bass sound can sound a lot thinner and not nearly as full compared to other subs farther away in room. So less weight and pressure as well. Even with a real similar looking FR to the NF and FF sub. But where it shines and what’s its true purpose is, is bringing on the FEEL. Not just shake/TR, but that aggressive feeling bass that you can feel within your body as well.

The combo of just the subs:
(VNF + NF + FF) or (VNF + FF) or (VNF + NF) or (NF + FF) are all good and can work well. Of course I’m biased and think the first one (VNF + NF + FF) is the best if one can make it happen But I understand that it’s not practical in most rooms and setups.

But with the combo (IMO) you can achieve an amazing seamless blend of great sounding, full feeling bass with nice weight with pressure as well, plus that awesome Tactile and aggressive feel to go with it. This alone can be pretty amazing, especially if on a suspended floor. Plus the amount of TR and feel, fullness of sound, weight and pressure (if in a nice sized room for pressure) can be tailored to one’s preferences by adjusting the levels etc of the VNF, NF and FF in relation to one another. Easier said than done? Maybe, but is not that bad once you start messing with it all and it get easier once you get a little experience under your belt just from messing with it all.

Ok, with that as the bread and butter (or backbone of your systems bass), on to the real fun stuff to add the icing and really bring it home for even better feeling TR and perception of that big awesome feeling powerful Bass.

First up, the BOSS
In my short time with the BOSS, this thing is amazing and probably gives the most natural, realistic feeling TR out of the Crowson MAs and BK LFEs that I’m familiar with. Again, just my opinion. With the right settings it can dig deep and powerful across the board while still feeling very natural and powerful. It can really bring a pretty crazy amount of intensity too, which is awesome. Plus it’s pretty cheap to build. Way cheaper than Crowson MAs. I kind of use it as a foundation/base of my TR in conjunction with the other subs, especially since I get SPL from my BOSS with it more sealed like an actual SubRiser. Another really cool thing is that it can give every seat a real similar TR feel.

Crowson MAs:
What can I say, these things are just amazing as well, in a little different way, but can still feel real similar to the BOSS. But when it comes to singles digit TR, IMO the MAs are unbeatable and still needed if you desire the best under 10hz TR you can get. So I run these as well to really add to that super low end, as well as above that into the 30hz range and really adds extra Pizzazz and awesomeness to the TR

BK LFEs (Buttkickers):
Oh man, these things in their wheelhouse of power region (that 12-30hz area), especially when multiples of them are ran together, are just unbeatable for raw brutality that can shake your filling loose. Nothing can match them in this area IMO!! Added to the mix, they can take your already excellent TR system up a few notches or more and give an even better over the top awesome feeling. I NEVER want to be without these in my system no matter whatever else I’m running, as I had them out there for a while and super glad to have them back in now. @Nalleh pretty much said the same thing about the BK LFEs in his system, which is even crazier than mine LOL.

So what do you get when you combine all this stuff together? Overkill???? Hahahaha yeah probably But IMO, when all dialed in together and fine tuned, you get a no compromise, check all the boxes, best of all worlds TR and Bass super system that can rock your world!!!

It can make watching moves a blast and give an epic experience on the ones with really good bass tracks, which seems to be a lot these days with BEQ!!!

But I know running all that together is probably impractical for most and may not even be desired if it was. It is most definitely taking things to the extreme. I just used my system as an example to show what is possible is so desired. It’s probably not for everyone though. Even though I love it, it may be way to over the top for some and not enjoyable.

The cool thing is, any small combo of the TR components and methods I described up above can make an amazing feeling super capable TR and Bass system. You can pretty much put together whatever you want, you just have to decide how much TR and bass you really need and want. I will say this though, IMO it’s almost impossible to have too much ULF TR firepower, especially with all the full band movies tracks now with BEQ!!! I know I keep mentioning BEQ a lot, but it really is THAT good and is such a game changer for movie watching if you love ULF TR and have a capable system to deliver it.

Alright, that’s all I wanted to say for now LOL . If anyone has anything they want to add to that with their impressions and other components too, or even a different view on it all, that'd be cool
Nalleh and Kevnmin like this.

My "Blacked Out" Home Theater Room
1400cuft Sealed Room on Suspended Floor | SY Triple Black Velvet Blackout | GIK Treatments | Denon AVR-X6300H - 7.6.4 Atmos | KEF Q Series Speakers | Epson 5040UB 4K | Eyes 7' to 120" AT Seymour Screen | Oppo UDP-203 | Xbox One X | Apple TV 4K | 6x 18" Sealed DIY Subs | 6x Crowson MAs | 4x BK LFEs | BOSS 'Sub Riser' w/ 6x JBL-12s | MiniDSP 10x10HD

Last edited by SBuger; 08-02-2019 at 10:47 AM.
SBuger is offline  
post #9 of 155 Old 08-02-2019, 07:31 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Alan P's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: South Dakota
Posts: 11,556
Mentioned: 106 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6244 Post(s)
Liked: 5542
Great idea for a thread! I really need to get me a better VNF sub (currently using B1200D)...I'm thinking PSA S1801. Just been suffering from lack of funds the last couple years.
Alan P is offline  
post #10 of 155 Old 08-02-2019, 08:15 AM
Member
 
Palewing's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: Norway
Posts: 77
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 36 Post(s)
Liked: 31
I'm hoping to get a couple of Crowsons at some point, but it's a shame getting a proper amplifier without any major setbacks is pretty much impossible.

Whether it's the adjustments, the idle power, heat, noise, reliability or price. I don't foresee myself getting surround sound any time soon, and I wish to simply be able to hook up the amp as part of my xlr passthrough-chain, and thus make do without a pre-pro or receiver. I was looking at the XTi x002-series. but they require far too much idle power. So far, the XLS 2502 seems to be the best overall option even though it practically has zero adjustment-options and is not overly powerful. It seems "adequate" down to around 10hz, according to the tests done on various amplifiers here on the forums a while ago.

People, including SBuger I'm [99.9%] sure, have been talking about having to use "negative delay" on the Crowsons to make them better match the rest of the system, but I use my system for everything, including online games and voice chat. And I can adjust the latency on the speakers themselves anyway, as well as the phase on the subwoofer. If I needed more latency than that to match it up perfectly with the Crowsons, I'm not sure I would do so anyway.

Of course, since the XLS 2502 doesn't have EQ, I can't make a really easy house curve/BEQ for the Crowsons, which is kind of a downer. There is for instance mini DSP, of course, but that's not without downsides, either, especially because of the way I have set thing up. I wouldn't want to force the EQ meant for the Crowsons on my subwoofer.

Audio Gear: Sennheiser HD 800 & HD 650, SPL Phonitor, Abrahamsen V6.0 DAC, JBL 705Ps, Arendal 1723 Subwoofer 1.

Last edited by Palewing; 08-02-2019 at 08:24 AM.
Palewing is online now  
post #11 of 155 Old 08-02-2019, 08:37 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
LastButNotLeast's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: 08077
Posts: 9,735
Mentioned: 69 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2391 Post(s)
Liked: 2034
Quote:
Originally Posted by Palewing View Post
Of course, since the XLS 2502 doesn't have EQ, I can't make a really easy house curve/BEQ for the Crowsons, which is kind of a downer. There is for instance mini DSP, of course, but that's not without downsides, either, especially because of the way I have set thing up. I wouldn't want to force the EQ meant for the Crowsons on my subwoofer.
You wouldn't. You can split one input on the miniDSP to several outputs, each one having its own adjustments (including delay).
Quite a handy device, actually.
Michael

Did you really need to quote that entire post in your reply?
Welcome to AVS - Get out while you still can!
Don't guess, measure: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/91-au...l#post22789786
LastButNotLeast is offline  
post #12 of 155 Old 08-02-2019, 09:08 AM
Member
 
Palewing's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: Norway
Posts: 77
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 36 Post(s)
Liked: 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post
You wouldn't. You can split one input on the miniDSP to several outputs, each one having its own adjustments (including delay).
Quite a handy device, actually.
Michael
To make my statement "I wouldn't want to force the EQ meant for the Crowsons on my subwoofer" a moot point, I want the option of 100% passthrough, and I also need the device to accept high voltages. As far as I can tell, the mini DSP is not a device capable of accepting 24 dBu input nor capable of transmitting it.

"Maximum input level, <1% THD 2.0 VRMS (8 dBu) or 4.0 VRMS (14 dBu), balanced or unbalanced, as selected by input sensitivity jumpers".

My signal is around 5 VRMS. It makes the VU meters on my SPL Phonitor dance quite a bit.

Audio Gear: Sennheiser HD 800 & HD 650, SPL Phonitor, Abrahamsen V6.0 DAC, JBL 705Ps, Arendal 1723 Subwoofer 1.

Last edited by Palewing; 08-02-2019 at 09:15 AM.
Palewing is online now  
post #13 of 155 Old 08-02-2019, 09:11 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
trhought's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 1,318
Mentioned: 90 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 613 Post(s)
Liked: 1096
Quote:
Originally Posted by Palewing View Post
I'm hoping to get a couple of Crowsons at some point, but it's a shame getting a proper amplifier without any major setbacks is pretty much impossible.

Whether it's the adjustments, the idle power, heat, noise, reliability or price. I don't foresee myself getting surround sound any time soon, and I wish to simply be able to hook up the amp as part of my xlr passthrough-chain, and thus make do without a pre-pro or receiver. I was looking at the XTi x002-series. but they require far too much idle power. So far, the XLS 2502 seems to be the best overall option even though it practically has zero adjustment-options and is not overly powerful. Though it seems "adequate" down to around 10hz, according to the tests done on various amplifiers here on the forums a while ago.

People, including SBuger I'm [99.9%] sure, have been talking about having to use "negative delay" on the Crowsons to make them better match the rest of the system, but I use my system for everything, including online games and voice chat. And I can adjust the latency on the speakers themselves anyway, as well as the phase on the subwoofer. If I needed more latency than that to match it up perfectly with the Crowsons, I'm not sure I would do so anyway.

Of course, since the XLS 2502 doesn't have EQ, I can't make a really easy house curve/BEQ for the Crowsons, which is kind of a downer. There is for instance mini DSP, of course, but that's not without downsides, either.
Palewing.....I'd recommend starting with a BOSS first....much more affordable and you'll be amazed how natural it will feel while delivering jaw-dropping ULF TR well into the single digits with any amplifier you want to use...even a spare one laying around since the power requirements aren't that large.

If you don't have any other TR devices in your setup right now, just add the BOSS and no need to re-calibrate or mess with timing. It will integrate seemlessly into your setup and sound very natural for any source material....music, movies and gaming. I haven't found any material yet that needed any tweaking or didn't sound right.

I'm big into music and movies and the BOSS excels in both formats....single digit wobbles in movies, no problem. Chest slamming kick drums and bass plucks, no problem. It's so natural with these source materials. For gaming, my 16 y.o. son is a big-time gamer, mostly online gaming with his friends using XBOX-X but also PS4 for exclusive titles (namely Uncharted and Spiderman). I'm in awe watching him play his games while sitting on the second row BOSS platform and he's sitting on the front row BOSS platform....truly breathtaking and very natural feeling. I could watch him for days doing that....better than movies at times

If you have other TR devices in your setup, then timing and setup is much more critical because of how TR is transmitted to us directly through wood rather than through the air like SPL TR devices.

I touched on the TR timing topic in the BOSS thread a couple days ago and will post some of that below also to help those who are considering multiple TR devices and properly setting those up.

Spoiler alert.....getting timing right without having the ability to measure multiple TR devices simulataneously and time-aligned is almost impossible because even 1ms differences can cause destructive TR combinations because that TR is transmitted to our bodies so efficiently through wood.

My recommendation for those who want natural feeling TR and don't have the proper tools to measure TR would be to pick one active TR device (either Clarks, Crowsons, BK's, Aura's, BOSS, etc.) and optimize that one active TR device by itself all on one amplifier and one signal chain to keep it feeling as natural as possible....i.e.; adding more Clarks on one amp, more Crowson's on one amp, more BK's on one amp, more BOSS drivers on one amp, etc. until you get the TR you desire.

If you have the proper tools, then additional TR devices and amplifiers can be added and optimized in the signal chain....see my post below for the proper tools.

For the passive TR devices (FF, NF and VNF) the addition of these TR devices aren't as critical from a timing perspective because those TR pressure waves are coming at you through the air and the TR is orders of magnitude smaller than the active TR devices I mentioned above and timing isn't as critical.
trhought is online now  
post #14 of 155 Old 08-02-2019, 09:16 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
trhought's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 1,318
Mentioned: 90 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 613 Post(s)
Liked: 1096
Excerpt from the BOSS thread regarding time aligning TR devices

From the BOSS thread.....click here for the full context.

"With multiple TR devices, timing of each device is critical. Even more so than timing of SPL waves from your speakers. This is because the medium that the waves are propagating through are much more dense with TR than SPL (wood transmits vibration much more efficiently than air).

When developing the BOSS, that was the most critical influence on overall TR.....minimizing the timing errors of each BOSS driver and the only way to do that is to make the platform as rigid as possible.

Those with multiple TR devices on their BOSS platforms are still experimenting to find that magic setting for each device because timing is so critical. To really dial things in with multiple devices, vibration and timing of each TR device needs to be measured independently and time-aligned much like we do with REW and dialing in SPL response by measuring each speaker contributing to the SPL in the room, then putting it all together in the end.

The problem with measuring TR devices, there's really no good hobbyist vibration measurement devices to allow this to happen. @3ll3d00d 's DIY vibration measuring system using raspberry pi is about as close as us hobbyist will get to having the ability to measure TR like the pros who use equipment costing 5 figures."
trhought is online now  
post #15 of 155 Old 08-02-2019, 09:20 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
LastButNotLeast's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: 08077
Posts: 9,735
Mentioned: 69 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2391 Post(s)
Liked: 2034
You don't like the VibSensor?
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...st-thread.html
Michael

Did you really need to quote that entire post in your reply?
Welcome to AVS - Get out while you still can!
Don't guess, measure: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/91-au...l#post22789786
LastButNotLeast is offline  
post #16 of 155 Old 08-02-2019, 09:25 AM
Member
 
Palewing's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: Norway
Posts: 77
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 36 Post(s)
Liked: 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by trhought View Post
Palewing.....I'd recommend starting with a BOSS first....much more affordable and you'll be amazed how natural it will feel while delivering jaw-dropping ULF TR well into the single digits with any amplifier you want to use...even a spare one laying around since the power requirements aren't that large.
I appreciate the reply, but BOSS has no relevance to me. I have others in the house that I have to bother as little as possible, I don't have the space, and I don't have any other amplifiers or drivers lying around making cost benefit a moot point. Crowson is the only relevant thing since it is accurate, takes up little space, and makes no (or extremely little) noise.

I got my subwoofer so I could have it VNF and high pass my speakers so others in the house would hear less bass than the "speakers only" at any relevant and relative volume. I pretty much only get to use it loud when there's no one else around.

Audio Gear: Sennheiser HD 800 & HD 650, SPL Phonitor, Abrahamsen V6.0 DAC, JBL 705Ps, Arendal 1723 Subwoofer 1.
Palewing is online now  
post #17 of 155 Old 08-02-2019, 09:47 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
trhought's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 1,318
Mentioned: 90 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 613 Post(s)
Liked: 1096
Quote:
Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post
You don't like the VibSensor?
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...st-thread.html
Michael
Hey Michael....a few problems with VibSensor.....it uses a phone or tablet which is too much weight for a transducer. The weight of the phone or tablet itself starts to affect the measured vibration significantly, especially below 10 Hz which is where the magic is for ULF TR.

The second problem is the CG of the phone or tablet....this is related to the weight above, but since the CG of these devices isn't centered, the offset CG also affects the measured vibration when using a phone or tablet.

The third problem is the ability to measure vibration at various points at the same time. VS can only measure one spot at one time.

If one has professional vibration measurement equipment, each accelerometer is about the size of a pea and only weighs a few grams. Each of those accelerometers plug into an analyzer that has multiple channels to record the vibration measurement at each accelerometer location on the test piece at the same time (time aligned). Once you see all the TR measurements on 1 time aligned graph, it becomes very easy to see how each one is mis-aligned and by how much. Once you know the direction and magnitude of mis-alignment, it's very straight forward to correct those timing errors.

The closest thing us hobbyist could use without spending 5 figures is @3ll3d00d 's DIY rpi vibration measuring system linked below. This system will only cost a few hundred dollars. Contrast that with the pro equipment which costs 5 figures and more. The equipment I used when developing the BOSS cost 6 figures....it was borrowed equipment

The link to the DIY rpi vibration measuring system is in this thread here.
3ll3d00d likes this.
trhought is online now  
post #18 of 155 Old 08-02-2019, 10:11 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
trhought's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 1,318
Mentioned: 90 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 613 Post(s)
Liked: 1096
Quote:
Originally Posted by Palewing View Post
I appreciate the reply, but BOSS has no relevance to me. I have others in the house that I have to bother as little as possible, I don't have the space, and I don't have any other amplifiers or drivers lying around making cost benefit a moot point. Crowson is the only relevant thing since it is accurate, takes up little space, and makes no (or extremely little) noise.

I got my subwoofer so I could have it VNF and high pass my speakers so others in the house would hear less bass than the "speakers only" at any relevant and relative volume. I pretty much only get to use it loud when there's no one else around.
The mini-riser BOSS makes no sound and the full size riser BOSS can be made to make no sound with some additional vents in the side of the riser cabinet and isolators below it. I have a family of 5 and do most of my listening at night time. Since adding BOSS platforms to our theater, I never get those looks in the morning that I used to get. I turn off my FF subs at night and it's BOSS only for incredible single digit ULF TR that shakes the blankets off the couch at times. For the first few weeks, I kept waiting for someone in the house to complain but no one did

Not trying to sell you on BOSS but just wanted to dispel the belief that there's SPL.....Shelby is using his BOSS as a sub riser quasi-sealed box without isos as he mentioned above so that's a special case creating SPL. Most BOSS risers are open baffle....no SPL. My first post in the BOSS thread has more details and testimonials if interested in learning more.

Some who have tried a BOSS have even gotten rid of their VNF's and Crowsons.
trhought is online now  
post #19 of 155 Old 08-02-2019, 11:31 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
SBuger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Land of Enchantment
Posts: 2,220
Mentioned: 343 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1199 Post(s)
Liked: 3805
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Great idea for a thread! I really need to get me a better VNF sub (currently using B1200D)...I'm thinking PSA S1801. Just been suffering from lack of funds the last couple years.
Thanks Alan!! Yeah I would think the PSA S1801 would work great for a VNF sub!!
Alan P likes this.

My "Blacked Out" Home Theater Room
1400cuft Sealed Room on Suspended Floor | SY Triple Black Velvet Blackout | GIK Treatments | Denon AVR-X6300H - 7.6.4 Atmos | KEF Q Series Speakers | Epson 5040UB 4K | Eyes 7' to 120" AT Seymour Screen | Oppo UDP-203 | Xbox One X | Apple TV 4K | 6x 18" Sealed DIY Subs | 6x Crowson MAs | 4x BK LFEs | BOSS 'Sub Riser' w/ 6x JBL-12s | MiniDSP 10x10HD
SBuger is offline  
post #20 of 155 Old 08-02-2019, 12:08 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
SBuger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Land of Enchantment
Posts: 2,220
Mentioned: 343 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1199 Post(s)
Liked: 3805
True about the VibSensor(s) and I’m sure d00d’s is great!! I’ve been saying this for a while now, I need to build one!! But even if the phone VS may not be the most accurate, and not good below 10hz or even much above 30-50hz (and the lack of multiple locations (yes multiple locations would be awesome!!), it’s still (IMHO) a fantastic tool to have in your tool bag to work with in that very important 10-30hz area. I think its accurate enough in the 10-30 hz area for what most of us need and is easily repeatable, making it easy to track changes in your systems TR with different components that may be added and combined in ones system, showing timing changes etc pretty darn well and most definitely helps to tune with, in conjunction with the ole butt-o-meter. Truly accurate and the be all end all, of course not, but close enough for what most of us need and doesn’t cost anything. Not that I wouldn’t love to mess around with a multipoint ultra-high end VibSensor set up

Just my .2 cents

My "Blacked Out" Home Theater Room
1400cuft Sealed Room on Suspended Floor | SY Triple Black Velvet Blackout | GIK Treatments | Denon AVR-X6300H - 7.6.4 Atmos | KEF Q Series Speakers | Epson 5040UB 4K | Eyes 7' to 120" AT Seymour Screen | Oppo UDP-203 | Xbox One X | Apple TV 4K | 6x 18" Sealed DIY Subs | 6x Crowson MAs | 4x BK LFEs | BOSS 'Sub Riser' w/ 6x JBL-12s | MiniDSP 10x10HD
SBuger is offline  
post #21 of 155 Old 08-02-2019, 01:38 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
trhought's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 1,318
Mentioned: 90 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 613 Post(s)
Liked: 1096
Quote:
Originally Posted by SBuger View Post
True about the VibSensor(s) and I’m sure d00d’s is great!! I’ve been saying this for a while now, I need to build one!! But even if the phone VS may not be the most accurate, and not good below 10hz or even much above 30-50hz (and the lack of multiple locations (yes multiple locations would be awesome!!), it’s still (IMHO) a fantastic tool to have in your tool bag to work with in that very important 10-30hz area. I think its accurate enough in the 10-30 hz area for what most of us need and is easily repeatable, making it easy to track changes in your systems TR with different components that may be added and combined in ones system, showing timing changes etc pretty darn well and most definitely helps to tune with, in conjunction with the ole butt-o-meter. Truly accurate and the be all end all, of course not, but close enough for what most of us need and doesn’t cost anything. Not that I wouldn’t love to mess around with a multipoint ultra-high end VibSensor set up

Just my .2 cents
Good point Shelby.....yeah, I think you and Nalleh would benefit a lot from dood's system and being able to measure the TR of each of your devices to see how they're combining. It was certainly an eye opener for me when I started measuring independent TR devices all time aligned on one plot....that was how I discovered platform bending was the biggest enemy of natural feeling single digit TR because the drivers started working against each other. There's no way I could have made that discovery with VS especially with the single digit responses that needed to be measured and the limitation of only measuring one driver at a time.

I think we've all found using REW for optimizing room response has netted additional SPL and highlighted holes in our system response that we didn't know about until we started using REW (and MSO). Same with TR, but even more so from a timing error perspective since TR is much more sensitive to timing.

We really don't know how much TR is being left on the table until we measure each TR component and put them all on one chart similar to how REW does it. That's what dood's system can do.

Not knocking VS, just calling attention to it's limitations as a vibration measuring device in our hobby. It's hard to describe what I'm talking about but once you see vibration of all devices on one plot similar to how REW does it with SPL, then you start to realize how powerful it can be for optimizing all TR devices so they're working together....within milliseconds....even better than the ole buttometer

Said another way, I thought my system sounded pretty good years ago. But, then I started using REW and realized I wasn't even close to reaching the full potential of my investment and my room.

Same with multiple TR devices all on one platform....it's hard to know what's being left on the table until each device can be measured and displayed time-aligned. Even the 10-30Hz range has significant cancellations happening that VS won't be able to detect on it's own.

With all the investment in multiple TR devices, another couple hundred dollars for dood's system would be money well spent for anyone wanting to combine those TR devices and ensure they're getting the most from their investment.....just like REW does for us and our room responses today.
SBuger and 3ll3d00d like this.
trhought is online now  
post #22 of 155 Old 08-02-2019, 02:23 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
3ll3d00d's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: London, UK
Posts: 3,884
Mentioned: 255 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2326 Post(s)
Liked: 2472
completely agree with @trhought re the need for higher resolution measurements, it's why I wrote that app in the first place I remember drawing the analogy with RS SPL meters, back in the day these were the only way to go but then at some point, accurate mics became commonplace and everyone could enjoy better bass! VS is a bit like that imv.

another option which is not that expensive but is more involved is based on https://www.audioxpress.com/assets/u...elerometer.pdf I have one of these also & verified that my rpi device measured accurately by reference to this device (using an ach-01 accelerometer).

if one were to build multiple such pre amps & buy multiple accelerometers (these are not expensive) & an audio device that can accept n input channels then it would be possible to build an extremely high resolution measurement device.

The nice thing about this approach is that it presents as an audio signal so it makes it possible to feed the input into any audio signal analysis software and hence a whole load of options open up without having to roll your own app. The only slightly tricky bit is actually building the preamp, this will be straightforward for some people but trivial for others.

on the rpi front, the thing that I never worked out is how to build an i2c circuit that can handle many devices and longer cables. This is useful because it lets you move the hardware away from the system under test and also makes it easier to support multiple sensors. I know this is possible (and not expensive IIRC) but never got round to working out exactly how to do it (requires an smbus repeater I think).

If anyone reading has the knowledge of how to build such a circuit then that would be a really useful thing to know as then you could really kit out your seating with lots of sensors I imagine the rpi4 would help with this also (more data to process in realtime so faster cpu helps).
SBuger and trhought like this.

Last edited by 3ll3d00d; 08-02-2019 at 02:26 PM.
3ll3d00d is online now  
post #23 of 155 Old 08-02-2019, 03:02 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
SBuger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Land of Enchantment
Posts: 2,220
Mentioned: 343 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1199 Post(s)
Liked: 3805
^^^ Great stuff you guys!!!
trhought likes this.

My "Blacked Out" Home Theater Room
1400cuft Sealed Room on Suspended Floor | SY Triple Black Velvet Blackout | GIK Treatments | Denon AVR-X6300H - 7.6.4 Atmos | KEF Q Series Speakers | Epson 5040UB 4K | Eyes 7' to 120" AT Seymour Screen | Oppo UDP-203 | Xbox One X | Apple TV 4K | 6x 18" Sealed DIY Subs | 6x Crowson MAs | 4x BK LFEs | BOSS 'Sub Riser' w/ 6x JBL-12s | MiniDSP 10x10HD
SBuger is offline  
post #24 of 155 Old 08-02-2019, 03:15 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
trhought's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 1,318
Mentioned: 90 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 613 Post(s)
Liked: 1096
Funny you mentioned the RS SPL meter @3ll3d00d ....I was also going to use that as an analogy. Something like using VS for TR measurements is like using REW with an uncorrected RS SPL meter and only measuring 1 speaker in the room.

I'm hopeful there will be some breakthroughs in vibration measurement for our hobby that will allow us to optimize TR in our setups just like REW has done with SPL in our rooms. There has to be an affordable multi-channel solution out there short of borrowing a pro BK rig from work that costs 6 figures.

Unfortunately, I won't be much of a help when it comes to the circuit needs for multiple accelerometers. I'm an ME with limited circuits experience.....once built a cable TV signal descrambler DIY kit back in the 80's which was pretty neat. The only problem was it started to drift after about an hour of use, but was pretty cool for that first hour of watching MTV unscrambled or the latest boxing PPV match unscrambled

Hopefully, there can be some collaboration happening with TR measurement similar to the awesomeness you have unlocked for all of us using your BEQ app. Members with multiple TR devices really don't know what they're missing until their TR is optimized the correct way.....we're certainly caught in the "RS SPL meter" days right now with TR measurement in our hobby.

Fingers crossed!
trhought is online now  
post #25 of 155 Old 08-02-2019, 03:22 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
trhought's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 1,318
Mentioned: 90 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 613 Post(s)
Liked: 1096
Quote:
Originally Posted by SBuger View Post
^^^ Great stuff you guys!!!
Thanks for starting this thread Shelby! Great idea to help us all collaborate as we continue the chase for that magical TR in our setups.
SBuger likes this.
trhought is online now  
post #26 of 155 Old 08-02-2019, 04:04 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
trhought's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 1,318
Mentioned: 90 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 613 Post(s)
Liked: 1096
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3ll3d00d View Post
completely agree with @trhought
another option which is not that expensive but is more involved is based on https://www.audioxpress.com/assets/u...elerometer.pdf I have one of these also & verified that my rpi device measured accurately by reference to this device (using an ach-01 accelerometer).
On my DIY vibration measurement system wishlist.....my vote would be to use the MPU-6050 rather than the ACH-01 for it's triax capabilities. This presents more challenges from a bandwith perspective with the 3 axes vs. 1 axis, but that would be ideal.

Also, just saw there's a bluetooth version of the 6050 in this link https://www.amazon.com/Accelerometer...gateway&sr=8-4

This appears to be a 6 axis accelerometer which would be even more cool if pitch, yaw and roll could be added to the measurement system capability. Makes me wonder if bluetooth would have enough bandwidth for all these channels in the frequencies needed. But, this bluetooth 6050 would eliminate the need for cables, which is a big pain in the neck when connecting 6 or more accelerometers to an analyzer and dressing all those cables so they don't interfere with the measurement.
SBuger likes this.
trhought is online now  
post #27 of 155 Old 08-02-2019, 04:23 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Hopinater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Central VA
Posts: 6,607
Mentioned: 81 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3391 Post(s)
Liked: 10312
Great thread. I look forward to reading what comes out of it. If you don't have TR you don't know what you're missing. It changes the game completely, I don't know what I would do without my Crowsons.
SBuger and trhought like this.

Subwoofers: PSA TV36 iPal X2 ...Speakers: PSA MTM-210T L/R - PSA MTM-210C Center- PSA MT110SR's Surrounds - RSL C34E Atmos... Motion Actuators: Crowson Shadow 8 - X2
Video: Samsung UN65KS9000 4K SUHD - Oppo UDP-203... AVR:Denon X4400... Gaming: XBOX ONE S

Guide to Subwoofer Calibration and Bass Preferences
Hopinater is offline  
post #28 of 155 Old 08-02-2019, 04:50 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
SBuger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Land of Enchantment
Posts: 2,220
Mentioned: 343 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1199 Post(s)
Liked: 3805
Quote:
Originally Posted by trhought View Post
Thanks for starting this thread Shelby! Great idea to help us all collaborate as we continue the chase for that magical TR in our setups.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post
Great thread. I look forward to reading what comes out of it. If you don't have TR you don't know what you're missing. It changes the game completely, I don't know what I would do without my Crowsons.
Thank guys!! Yeah Hop, with those new iPals of yours AND Crowsons, you definitely got TR!! I bet your enjoying the heck out of it all too!!!!
trhought and Hopinater like this.

My "Blacked Out" Home Theater Room
1400cuft Sealed Room on Suspended Floor | SY Triple Black Velvet Blackout | GIK Treatments | Denon AVR-X6300H - 7.6.4 Atmos | KEF Q Series Speakers | Epson 5040UB 4K | Eyes 7' to 120" AT Seymour Screen | Oppo UDP-203 | Xbox One X | Apple TV 4K | 6x 18" Sealed DIY Subs | 6x Crowson MAs | 4x BK LFEs | BOSS 'Sub Riser' w/ 6x JBL-12s | MiniDSP 10x10HD
SBuger is offline  
post #29 of 155 Old 08-03-2019, 12:44 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
3ll3d00d's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: London, UK
Posts: 3,884
Mentioned: 255 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2326 Post(s)
Liked: 2472
Quote:
Originally Posted by trhought View Post
On my DIY vibration measurement system wishlist.....my vote would be to use the MPU-6050 rather than the ACH-01 for it's triax capabilities. This presents more challenges from a bandwith perspective with the 3 axes vs. 1 axis, but that would be ideal.

Also, just saw there's a bluetooth version of the 6050 in this link https://www.amazon.com/Accelerometer...gateway&sr=8-4

This appears to be a 6 axis accelerometer which would be even more cool if pitch, yaw and roll could be added to the measurement system capability. Makes me wonder if bluetooth would have enough bandwidth for all these channels in the frequencies needed. But, this bluetooth 6050 would eliminate the need for cables, which is a big pain in the neck when connecting 6 or more accelerometers to an analyzer and dressing all those cables so they don't interfere with the measurement.
agree about the need for multiple axes, ach-01 makes it easy to run long cables though and takes interface bandwidth out of the equation which is definitely a pain with the mpu6050.

that bluetooth equipped one looks interesting, this is the equivalent of what I was suggested the pi zero w for but smaller, lighter and more plug n play (if it works). All you'd need is a power supply (i.e. a battery and some cables). I was thinking of rewriting the vibe app to simplify it anyway so perhaps that would be a good way to add support for this sort of device at the same time.

https://mbientlab.com/metamotionc/ looks like the non DIY version, $70 per sensor and those sensors are small, light and have built in battery power. It also has an apparently friendly api on top.
trhought likes this.
3ll3d00d is online now  
post #30 of 155 Old 08-03-2019, 06:39 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
LastButNotLeast's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: 08077
Posts: 9,735
Mentioned: 69 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2391 Post(s)
Liked: 2034
Crowdsource? I'm in.
Michael


Edit: actually, is this all we'd need?
https://mbientlab.com/store/adhesive...-research-kit/

Did you really need to quote that entire post in your reply?
Welcome to AVS - Get out while you still can!
Don't guess, measure: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/91-au...l#post22789786

Last edited by LastButNotLeast; 08-03-2019 at 06:45 AM.
LastButNotLeast is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply Subwoofers, Bass, and Transducers

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off