Chane SBE 118 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 48 Old 08-03-2019, 03:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Chane SBE 118

Have any of you guys bought this subwoofer? It's an 18 inch passive sealed subwoofer that's supposedly pretty good. It was reviewed when it was 600$ and praised for its quality. It's now 600 for two of them so two sealed 18 subs seemed like a solid deal.

Anyone tried these?
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post #2 of 48 Old 08-06-2019, 01:11 PM
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Is the review you're referring to this one? If so, it was me who posted it.

At $600 a pair it's actually a very good deal; $300 is budget subwoofer territory and these are not budget subs. You will need amplification though, and I would advise you to get some type of DSP controller - like a miniDSP - so you can do signal shaping. The native response drops pretty quickly in the mid-bass region so they will need some type of Linkwitz Transform to flatten out the response curve.
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post #3 of 48 Old 08-07-2019, 07:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Is the review you're referring to this one? If so, it was me who posted it.

At $600 a pair it's actually a very good deal; $300 is budget subwoofer territory and these are not budget subs. You will need amplification though, and I would advise you to get some type of DSP controller - like a miniDSP - so you can do signal shaping. The native response drops pretty quickly in the mid-bass region so they will need some type of Linkwitz Transform to flatten out the response curve.
I got the Behringer NX3000DSP. I was going to linearly boost from 60hz to be up 20dB by 15 hz. Two of them in a moderate size room with dsp should be able to go sub 20hz relatively easy right?
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post #4 of 48 Old 08-07-2019, 11:07 PM
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I got the Behringer NX3000DSP. I was going to linearly boost from 60hz to be up 20dB by 15 hz. Two of them in a moderate size room with dsp should be able to go sub 20hz relatively easy right?
If you are going to boost the output by 20dB, don't expect them to last long. That level of boost is ridiculous, even by AVS standards.

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post #5 of 48 Old 08-08-2019, 03:50 AM - Thread Starter
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I got the Behringer NX3000DSP. I was going to linearly boost from 60hz to be up 20dB by 15 hz. Two of them in a moderate size room with dsp should be able to go sub 20hz relatively easy right?
If you are going to boost the output by 20dB, don't expect them to last long. That level of boost is ridiculous, even by AVS standards.
I meant I'll dsp it so that I get a curve up at 60hz down to 20hz. More accurately, starting at 20hz I'm decreasing the output down to 60hz by about 18 dB.

Reason is this is the frequency response published by chane. Black is the raw response.

https://www.chanemusiccinema.com/for...1&d=1524746036

The drop starts at 60 and is down about 18dB by 20hz so I'm just equalizing the opposite of that to get a flat response. Am I thinking about it the wrong way?
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post #6 of 48 Old 08-08-2019, 04:58 AM
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Whether your starting point is 60Hz and working down or 20Hz and working up it has the same effect on the driver, so unless I misunderstand what you're saying there's no difference in the outcome between the two approaches. Either way, I'm with Ray; 20dB (or even 18dB) is too much for the medium-throw drivers in the SBE. xmax is probably 25mm so these are not 75+ like you see on some other subwoofers. Having a pair will definitely help distribute the load, but if any part of your LT curve is over 10dB I would caution against that. What are the dimensions of your room (HWD)? Natural gain may help give you a boost down low anyway.

 
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post #7 of 48 Old 08-08-2019, 05:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Whether your starting point is 60Hz and working down or 20Hz and working up it has the same effect on the driver, so unless I misunderstand what you're saying there's no difference in the outcome between the two approaches. Either way, I'm with Ray; 20dB (or even 18dB) is too much for the medium-throw drivers in the SBE. xmax is probably 25mm so these are not 75+ like you see on some other subwoofers. Having a pair will definitely help distribute the load, but if any part of your LT curve is over 10dB I would caution against that. What are the dimensions of your room (HWD)? Natural gain may help give you a boost down low anyway.
Room is 30x12x9. It's not small enough for meaningful gain I don't think.

How do you go about equalizing sealed subwoofers then? Don't they all pretty much start dropping off at about 50-60Hz. I don't mind if I'm listening to them at 85-90dB (I don't listen loud) as long as the curve is flat. Chane sent me the above graph and stated that the red is the equalized frequency response which is what they get with DSP focused on 20hz but it's realistic to focus it on about 17hz since the woofer still outputs about 95dB at that frequency.
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You EQ a sealed subwoofer exactly like you're planning to, it's the amount of boost being applied that will result in an issue. Cabinet volume and driver parameters determine when the roll off begins so it's not a set frequency. The SBE drivers don't have a lot of mechanical movement so large amounts of boost are not advisable. If you shaped the response curve to have a gentle slope and didn't apply a lot of boost you should be fine. I'm only suggesting that an LT flat to 20Hz is likely not going to end well. Don't forget there is no signal shaping now, which means no protection mechanisms. Without limiters you become responsible for safeguarding the drivers from damage.

 
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post #9 of 48 Old 08-08-2019, 09:25 AM - Thread Starter
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You EQ a sealed subwoofer exactly like you're planning to, it's the amount of boost being applied that will result in an issue. Cabinet volume and driver parameters determine when the roll off begins so it's not a set frequency. The SBE drivers don't have a lot of mechanical movement so large amounts of boost are not advisable. If you shaped the response curve to have a gentle slope and didn't apply a lot of boost you should be fine. I'm only suggesting that an LT flat to 20Hz is likely not going to end well. Don't forget there is no signal shaping now, which means no protection mechanisms. Without limiters you become responsible for safeguarding the drivers from damage.
I'm a bit confused. You're saying I EQ it like I'm planning to but the boost I'm applying is too much. Do you mean I can EQ but then keep the volume down so the driver doesn't move much? Or will any form of trying to flatten to 20hz even at low volumes be dangerous?

PS. I know very little about this stuff so I appreciate the answers.
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post #10 of 48 Old 08-08-2019, 09:38 AM
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Remember the room will apply some boost as well so to get a flat in room response you don't DSP flat to 20hz outside.

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post #11 of 48 Old 08-08-2019, 09:43 AM - Thread Starter
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Remember the room will apply some boost as well so to get a flat in room response you don't DSP flat to 20hz outside.
Even if it's 30ft at its largest dimension?
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post #12 of 48 Old 08-08-2019, 10:19 AM
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I'm a bit confused. You're saying I EQ it like I'm planning to but the boost I'm applying is too much. Do you mean I can EQ but then keep the volume down so the driver doesn't move much? Or will any form of trying to flatten to 20hz even at low volumes be dangerous?

PS. I know very little about this stuff so I appreciate the answers.
It's a long and complex answer, but in a nutshell...

When you buy an amplified subwoofer the manufacturer has done all the heavy lifting, matching the driver, amp, alignment type (ported or sealed) and cabinet volume. They carefully shape the signal (frequency response) to get the maximum from their parts. They also put in the protection mechanisms just in case the owner doesn't have much self control. When you buy a passive subwoofer you are then responsible to do all that.

As the output rolls off you can apply amplifier power to shore it back up, which is what you want to do (and is perfectly reasonable). The more you lift a sloping signal though the more power you need, and the harder you push the driver. 20dB is a massive boost and will definitely cause you to push the driver beyond its capabilities. And therein lies the second issue; protection. When you have a passive subwoofer the filters/limiters become your responsibility, so not only do you have to shape the response curve you have to ensure the protection mechanism will not allow the driver to go beyond its limits.

I'm not trying to discourage you from exploring this option, just want to give you an indication of what lies ahead. If you aren't very familiar with what's necessary there will be a learning curve for sure. Not insurmountable, but some time and effort will need to be expended as mistakes will lead to shredded drivers.

 
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post #13 of 48 Old 08-08-2019, 10:30 AM - Thread Starter
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It's a long and complex answer, but in a nutshell...

When you buy an amplified subwoofer the manufacturer has done all the heavy lifting, matching the driver, amp, alignment type (ported or sealed) and cabinet volume. They carefully shape the signal (frequency response) to get the maximum from their parts. They also put in the protection mechanisms just in case the owner doesn't have much self control. When you buy a passive subwoofer you are then responsible to do all that.

As the output rolls off you can apply amplifier power to shore it back up, which is what you want to do (and is perfectly reasonable). The more you lift a sloping signal though the more power you need, and the harder you push the driver. 20dB is a massive boost and will definitely cause you to push the driver beyond its capabilities. And therein lies the second issue; protection. When you have a passive subwoofer the filters/limiters become your responsibility, so not only do you have to shape the response curve you have to ensure the protection mechanism will not allow the driver to go beyond its limits.

I'm not trying to discourage you from exploring this option, just want to give you an indication of what lies ahead. If you aren't very familiar with what's necessary there will be a learning curve for sure. Not insurmountable, but some time and effort will need to be expended as mistakes will lead to shredded drivers.
Does applying a high pass filter portend that protection? Does it matter how many dB/octave that filter is?

Will 20dB boost require a lot of power if listening volume if 90dB?

Jon Lane mentioned that as long as I keep their incursion under 1 inch then these drivers are safe. He added that 2 subs would get to 90dB at 15hz without >1 inch incursion. Does that sound about right to you as well?
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post #14 of 48 Old 08-08-2019, 11:03 AM
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Sounds to me like you would be better off with ported DIY subs. They have a more flat response, by design. With sealed subs, you give up the flat response for greater extension. You are attempting to have both, and that ain't gonna happen at your budget.

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post #15 of 48 Old 08-08-2019, 11:10 AM - Thread Starter
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Sounds to me like you would be better off with ported DIY subs. They have a more flat response, by design. With sealed subs, you give up the flat response for greater extension. You are attempting to have both, and that ain't gonna happen at your budget.
Isn't the SVS SB2000 pretty flat till about 21Hz? I'd think a pair of 18 inch subwoofers could get at least that loud at 20hz right?
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post #16 of 48 Old 08-08-2019, 11:19 AM
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Isn't the SVS SB2000 pretty flat till about 21Hz? I'd think a pair of 18 inch subwoofers could get at least that loud at 20hz right?
Reread Jim's response above. Comparing apples to cherry pie.

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post #17 of 48 Old 08-08-2019, 11:24 AM - Thread Starter
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Reread Jim's response above. Comparing apples to cherry pie.
Maybe I missed the point. Isn't applying the high pass filter the protection?
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post #18 of 48 Old 08-08-2019, 11:27 AM
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Maybe I missed the point. Isn't applying the high pass filter the protection?
It's one protection. Our concern is you attempting you bump the response by 20dB, which is like driving a Volkswagen at 65 mph in second gear. Revving far past the redline almost guarantees a blown engine.

It's about using the system as it was designed to be used.

You're not the first guy here to try to bypass the laws of physics. It never ends well.

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It's one protection. Our concern is you attempting you bump the response by 20dB, which is like driving a Volkswagen at 65 mph in second gear. Revving far past the redline almost guarantees a blown engine.

You're not the first guy here to try to bypass the laws of physics. It never ends well.
Even if they're not loud?
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Even if they're not loud?
Show me the rev limiter.

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post #21 of 48 Old 08-08-2019, 11:32 AM - Thread Starter
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Show me the rev limiter.
Not sure what that means? You mean the thing limiting me from turning them up loud?
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post #22 of 48 Old 08-08-2019, 11:35 AM
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Not sure what that means? You mean the thing limiting me from turning them up loud?
Yep. Humans are extremely unreliable in this area.

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Yep. Humans are extremely unreliable in this area.
I genuinely can't listen to things loud. I've plugged my ears before in certain movies. My speakers are usually set to about 75dB and sometimes if I'm "going crazy" I turn them up to like 85 dB. (I use the Dayton UMM-6 for dB measurements).

I really appreciate all the advice btw. I'm learning a lot on these forums.
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Actually on that topic though, I am able to put a dB limiter on my receiver from my phone app. Not that I've ever turned up the volume past 100 but I could do that to be safe too.
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I genuinely can't listen to things loud. I've plugged my ears before in certain movies. My speakers are usually set to about 75dB and sometimes if I'm "going crazy" I turn them up to like 85 dB. (I use the Dayton UMM-6 for dB measurements).

I really appreciate all the advice btw. I'm learning a lot on these forums.
And at 85 dB, if there is a 10dB peak in the bass output (explosion, whatever), you have exceeded Jon's recommendation by 5dB. See how easy it is? What you seem to fail to grasp is that at a 20dB boost at 20Hz, you are pushing the speaker nearly to it's limit at regular sound levels. The headroom is basically gone, as it has already been used up by EQ.

OK, I'm done here. If you want to continue down this path, go ahead, but don't expect Jon to replace your woofers under warranty after you blow them up.

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post #26 of 48 Old 08-08-2019, 11:48 AM
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Isn't the SVS SB2000 pretty flat till about 21Hz? I'd think a pair of 18 inch subwoofers could get at least that loud at 20hz right?

Published frequency response numbers (e.g. -3 db value) do not reflect performance at maximum volumes.


If you don't listen loud as you said, these subs might be fine for you. If you think you're going to get them anyway, I would see how they measure in room before deciding what adjustments to make. Manufacturers don't have the luxury of knowing what room their subs will be in, but you do.


Think of it this way, whatever you decide to cut or boost has no effect on the maximum output the subs can produce at any given frequency. So you would want to know what that is, and if it will meet your needs.
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post #27 of 48 Old 08-08-2019, 11:50 AM - Thread Starter
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And at 85 dB, if there is a 10dB peak in the bass output (explosion, whatever), you have exceeded Jon's recommendation by 5dB. See how easy it is? What you seem to fail to grasp is that at a 20dB boost at 20Hz, you are pushing the speaker nearly to it's limit at regular sound levels. The headroom is basically gone, as it has already been used up by EQ.

OK, I'm done here. If you want to continue down this pass, go ahead, but don't expect Jon to replace your woofers under warranty after you blow them up.
I misunderstood something. You're saying even if I set volume at like 85dB, the subwoofer might get louder than that for a peak? I didn't know that part. Is there a ways I can limit the peaks too?
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post #28 of 48 Old 08-08-2019, 11:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Published frequency response numbers (e.g. -3 db value) do not reflect performance at maximum volumes.


If you don't listen loud as you said, these subs might be fine for you. If you think you're going to get them anyway, I would see how they measure in room before deciding what adjustments to make. Manufacturers don't have the luxury of knowing what room their subs will be in, but you do.


Think of it this way, whatever you decide to cut or boost has no effect on the maximum output the subs can produce at any given frequency. So you would want to know what that is, and if it will meet your needs.
Thanks, that makes sense. I'll measure first and EQ slow and steady after that.
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post #29 of 48 Old 08-08-2019, 01:08 PM
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I had 8 of these from chase in my room. My room was 1500 cubes and never needed a limiter. I did add boost down low as there -3 dB point was 12hz in my room which had 20 dB of gain at 10hz, 10 dB at 20hz. Your room is bigger and you might get 10 dB at 18-19hz of gain, depending how leaky your room is, most likely 5 dB since mine is surrounded by concrete in a basement. At your levels you might not want to boost the low end anyways and measure first. You may only need to add a little boost. These are not high x-max drivers, more like the dayton 390HO. They sound great, you just need many with boost for the very deep stuff, but it can be done.

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post #30 of 48 Old 08-09-2019, 08:52 AM
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I found out that shipping gets cheaper on these the more you buy if you are willing to pick up at a fedex hub. shipping was $200 for four of them to 60504, which i felt was reasonable given the size and weight. If anyone local to 60504 or so wants to go in with me on some of these shoot me an email or hit me up via pm.
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