Worth adding a 2nd subwoofer? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 18 Old 08-05-2019, 01:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Worth adding a 2nd subwoofer?

My setup:

Center: Klipsch 250c
Left/Right: Klipsch 260f
Surrounds: Klipsch 250s
Atmos: Klipsch 140SA
Sub: SVS PC-2000
A/V: Denon x3400h

I have my setup downstairs with room dimensions 23'7"w x 14'4"l x 6'9"h. This is my first home theater setup and I gradually pieced everything together and am considering adding a 2nd subwoofer. I originally tried the HSU VTF-2 Mk5 and the bass was rather weak. I changed over to the SVS PC2000 and the bass sounds great and there's more of that "oomph" feeling I'm looking for but it still feels a bit subdued during lfe moments (such as the famous Jurassic Park moment). I have a concrete floor with tile over it and plaster walls so I know I'm not going to get room shaking sound no matter what but that's not what I'm looking for. I'd just like have a bit more of that oomph feeling with the lfe (although not to the effect it feels like a shotgun blast to the chest).

I have calibrated the speakers, set the crossovers, and tried nearfield positioning the subwoofer. I have a throw rug in front of the speakers (I sit around 10 feet from the speakers). I'm thinking that it's the room size that is the problem. Would a 2nd SVS PC2000 would help with my problem?
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post #2 of 18 Old 08-05-2019, 04:48 PM
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adding a second sub is probably not going to help you out too much in your specific case. Might I suggest reading up on a BOSS platform or maybe get some crowson motion actuators. adding a second sub usually helps even out the bass frequencies unless you colocate them, which in that case will give you roughly 6db more output.

My HT: 7.3.4 Denon x4300h + denon stereo amp, Hsu HB1-MK2(6), HC1-MK2, Pioneer SP-T22A-LR(4), dual Rythmik fv25hp, b1200d, 65" LG OLEDB7A, xbone s, ps4 pro.
Classroom HT: 7.2.2 Onkyo TX-NR747, JBL L5 (LR), HSU HC-1 MK2(C), Pioneer SP-T22A-LR(2), Pioneer SP-C22 (2-Surrounds), svs pb12+/2, svs pc13, Epson Powerlite 99WH
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post #3 of 18 Old 08-05-2019, 05:26 PM
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I love to reference this diagram when talking about subwoofer tactical feel. The type of “oomph” you’re going for may require slightly different approaches. Especially when considering the effect your specific room has on certain frequencies.


Maybe it will help you determine where to focus your LFE efforts.
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post #4 of 18 Old 08-05-2019, 09:59 PM
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Adding a second PC2000 may improve the uniformity of the bass in the room.

It also increases the potential volume by 6dB. (Not the 3dB you might expect.)

It may be worth a try, even if you won't get a lot of seismics.
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post #5 of 18 Old 08-07-2019, 09:53 AM
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Are you running the subwoofer level hotter than the initial level match set by Audyssey in the Denon 3400?

If yes - how much gain did you add (either at the subwoofer itself or in the Denon)?

When you listen to action/sci-fi Blu-ray movies, what is the typical master volume setting on the Denon?
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post #6 of 18 Old 08-07-2019, 01:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sassuki View Post
I love to reference this diagram when talking about subwoofer tactical feel. The type of “oomph” you’re going for may require slightly different approaches. Especially when considering the effect your specific room has on certain frequencies.


Maybe it will help you determine where to focus your LFE efforts.

That is quite the diagram. I've never seen anything representing this before. Now I know why I'm not getting any shoulder girdle OOMPH with my HT system, it doesn't go down that low. The 50-100 hz effect on the chest cavity is often mentioned and most easily felt.

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post #7 of 18 Old 08-07-2019, 06:09 PM
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@Havfan

For more in you chest feeling, a second sub will definitely help.
Also you could try this;
III-C: Cascading Crossovers:

For feeling in the chairs, you can add some TT since you have a concrete floor;
Shakers - Simple/Cheap Hookup - Visual Guide


Darth
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post #8 of 18 Old 08-07-2019, 06:25 PM
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You could try a 2nd sub near field, such as behind or next to your seating position. However, as @phatfreeza suggested, you would be wise to look into a BOSS mini riser. They really are amazing in terms of tactile bass at very low cost. Just search for the hideaway theater thread.
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post #9 of 18 Old 08-08-2019, 07:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Havfan View Post
My setup:

Center: Klipsch 250c
Left/Right: Klipsch 260f
Surrounds: Klipsch 250s
Atmos: Klipsch 140SA
Sub: SVS PC-2000
A/V: Denon x3400h

I have my setup downstairs with room dimensions 23'7"w x 14'4"l x 6'9"h. This is my first home theater setup and I gradually pieced everything together and am considering adding a 2nd subwoofer. I originally tried the HSU VTF-2 Mk5 and the bass was rather weak. I changed over to the SVS PC2000 and the bass sounds great and there's more of that "oomph" feeling I'm looking for but it still feels a bit subdued during lfe moments (such as the famous Jurassic Park moment). I have a concrete floor with tile over it and plaster walls so I know I'm not going to get room shaking sound no matter what but that's not what I'm looking for. I'd just like have a bit more of that oomph feeling with the lfe (although not to the effect it feels like a shotgun blast to the chest).

I have calibrated the speakers, set the crossovers, and tried nearfield positioning the subwoofer. I have a throw rug in front of the speakers (I sit around 10 feet from the speakers). I'm thinking that it's the room size that is the problem. Would a 2nd SVS PC2000 would help with my problem?


Hi,

Ed Mullen asked a couple of important questions which don't seem to have been answered, unless you have communicated privately with him. You do have a fairly large room size, but if you have tried the PC2000 nearfield, that should have helped with respect to both increased SPL and increased tactile response (TR). You are correct that you aren't going to get nearly as much low-bass TR on concrete as you could on a suspended wood floor. But, that doesn't mean you aren't going to get any at all, especially with a nearfield arrangement.

Adding a second PC2000 could definitely be helpful, as would upgrading to an even more powerful subwoofer with lower extension, such as a PC4000. But, before doing either of those things, I think you should return to Ed's questions. How much are you turning up the volume on your subwoofer after the Audyssey calibration?

It is important to understand that the goal of your automated calibration and room EQ process is to make all of the channels in your system, including the subwoofer, play at the same volume level, as measured at the MLP. After the calibration, however, you can increase the volume of the subwoofer as much as you like. The best way to do that is explained in Section II of the Guide linked in my signature. The Cliff Notes at the very beginning of the Guide will give you a quick summary of that process.

At some point of course, as you turn up the subwoofer volume, you will run out of headroom and the sub will stop getting any louder and may also make some unpleasant noises. But, nothing in your post suggests you have gotten to that point yet. So, try turning up the volume in your sub, preferably by using the gain control on the sub itself, and see what happens.

Especially considering your room size, you may very well benefit from adding another sub, or even better, from upgrading to a more powerful model with lower extension. The PC4000 would be a good choice for that. But, you will still have to increase your subwoofer volume (post-calibration) to take advantage of the extra power, whether you have one sub or ten subs, so start by turning up your sub gain and see what you think.

Regards,
Mike


Edit: The BOSS platform, which was suggested earlier, could also be helpful for low-bass TR. But, start by maximizing what you have to discover what its limitations are.

GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.

Last edited by mthomas47; 08-08-2019 at 07:26 AM.
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post #10 of 18 Old 08-08-2019, 08:36 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Mullen View Post
Are you running the subwoofer level hotter than the initial level match set by Audyssey in the Denon 3400?

If yes - how much gain did you add (either at the subwoofer itself or in the Denon)?

When you listen to action/sci-fi Blu-ray movies, what is the typical master volume setting on the Denon?
I haven't touched the physical volume level on the sub since the Audyssey set up. During setup it was telling me my sub volume was too loud so I turned it down just enough to proceed. I usually listen to Blu-rays around 62-65 on my Denon.
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post #11 of 18 Old 08-08-2019, 08:40 AM
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My opinion, there is no substitution for cone size if you're looking for that visceral, feel it in your chest impact. I feel you need 15" minimum. Adding a second 12" will help smooth out the bass response throughout the room and increase overall SPL, but still may not give you the SPL at the lower Hz that you can feel, regardless of what the specs say on paper. As an example, I'm using a Dynamo 1100x 12" along with a DefTech SuperCube I 10" up in the front of the room. The DefTech, on paper, is spec'd down to 13Hz. Hogwash. It's not even close. It certainly can't pressurize the room down that low. The bass is good using those two subs together, but I'm still missing that low-end rumble and oomph. So last night I added back my old Velodyne 15" in the back of the room. Rated down to 15Hz on paper, not as low as the DefTech, but no comparison in actual performance. Yep, that's what I was missing. Bigger cones move bigger air.

Pre/Pro: Anthem AVR 60 | 5.2.4 Config: MartinLogan ElectroMotion ESL X FL/FR, ESL C Center, Motion LX16 Surrounds, Motion 4i Atmos | Subs: Velodyne DD-15, Martin Logan Dynamo 1100x | Amplification: Emotiva XPA-3 Gen 1 FL/C/FR, Emotiva A-700 Surrounds and Atmos

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post #12 of 18 Old 08-09-2019, 08:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Havfan View Post
I haven't touched the physical volume level on the sub since the Audyssey set up. During setup it was telling me my sub volume was too loud so I turned it down just enough to proceed. I usually listen to Blu-rays around 62-65 on my Denon.

As Mike stated, you should really try bumping up the sub volume. Many of us run our subs 5-10 db hot. That is, 5-10 db higher than the rest of your speakers (or at least the mains). If you have an SPL meter, use the pink noise on your AVR and measure your sub volume as you raise it to the desired db level you want over your mains. There may even be an app that you can download that turns your phone into an SPL meter. It makes a tremendous difference, especially at low listening levels. For myself, I run my PSA TV36 ipal (dual 18 inch drivers) around 7 db hot. Try this first and see what you think.
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post #13 of 18 Old 08-09-2019, 10:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Havfan View Post
I haven't touched the physical volume level on the sub since the Audyssey set up. During setup it was telling me my sub volume was too loud so I turned it down just enough to proceed. I usually listen to Blu-rays around 62-65 on my Denon.
Since the subwoofer is still level matched per Audyssey and you are listening at 17-20 dB below reference level (which is 82 dB on your master volume) - you have some dynamic headroom left in the subwoofer.

Increase the subwoofer volume in the AVR under the manual set-up section. Best practices is 2-4 dB hot - but you can add more unless the subwoofer starts to complain on demanding passages.

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post #14 of 18 Old 08-09-2019, 04:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Ed Mullen View Post
Since the subwoofer is still level matched per Audyssey and you are listening at 17-20 dB below reference level (which is 82 dB on your master volume) - you have some dynamic headroom left in the subwoofer.

Increase the subwoofer volume in the AVR under the manual set-up section. Best practices is 2-4 dB hot - but you can add more unless the subwoofer starts to complain on demanding passages.
Thanks for the help. I'm new to home theater so I was concerned about damaging my speakers (or worse my hearing) by playing it too loud. I didn't know if the master volume on the denon corresponded with the decibel level or was just an arbitrary number so I just played it at what's comfortable for me (although it still gets pretty loud at 65). I'll play around with the sub settings this weekend. Should I let the physical volume dial on my sub alone and only make adjustments only via my a/v receiver?
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post #15 of 18 Old 08-10-2019, 06:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Havfan View Post
Thanks for the help. I'm new to home theater so I was concerned about damaging my speakers (or worse my hearing) by playing it too loud. I didn't know if the master volume on the denon corresponded with the decibel level or was just an arbitrary number so I just played it at what's comfortable for me (although it still gets pretty loud at 65). I'll play around with the sub settings this weekend. Should I let the physical volume dial on my sub alone and only make adjustments only via my a/v receiver?
With Audyssey equipped AVRs, I generally recommend adding gain from the subwoofer channel level under the main set-up menu.

There are interrelated Audyssey functions like Dynamic EQ, MultEQ XT32 Reference, Dynamic Volume (if enabled) and also internal gain stages which are affected with the subwoofer channel level is changed within the AVR. In my experience, adjusting the sub level within the AVR results in better sound quality and integration than adding gain external to Audyssey at the subwoofer.

I do still recommend setting the gain at the subwoofer as high as possible while still staying within the green subwoofer SPL window during the XT32 subwoofer level match step. This will typically be 77-78 dB, and will result in a slightly more negative subwoofer trim value after Audyssey set-up is finished.

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post #16 of 18 Old 08-10-2019, 03:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Mullen View Post
Since the subwoofer is still level matched per Audyssey and you are listening at 17-20 dB below reference level (which is 82 dB on your master volume) - you have some dynamic headroom left in the subwoofer.

Increase the subwoofer volume in the AVR under the manual set-up section. Best practices is 2-4 dB hot - but you can add more unless the subwoofer starts to complain on demanding passages.
Thank you. Succinct. Straightforward. Practical. And very useful.
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post #17 of 18 Old 08-16-2019, 10:50 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Mullen View Post
With Audyssey equipped AVRs, I generally recommend adding gain from the subwoofer channel level under the main set-up menu.

There are interrelated Audyssey functions like Dynamic EQ, MultEQ XT32 Reference, Dynamic Volume (if enabled) and also internal gain stages which are affected with the subwoofer channel level is changed within the AVR. In my experience, adjusting the sub level within the AVR results in better sound quality and integration than adding gain external to Audyssey at the subwoofer.

I do still recommend setting the gain at the subwoofer as high as possible while still staying within the green subwoofer SPL window during the XT32 subwoofer level match step. This will typically be 77-78 dB, and will result in a slightly more negative subwoofer trim value after Audyssey set-up is finished.
Thanks for all the help. I had the subwoofer gain at the max Audyssey allowed during setup so I didn't touch the knob. Audyssey set the subwoofer level at -3.5 db. I upped it 3.5 db and that made a difference. My Denon allowed me to boost the subwoofer level either under manual setup >>levels or audio >> subwoofer level adjust. Does it matter which one I use? I used the subwoofer level adjust setting.

So far I listened to the atmos tracks on Captain Marvel and Netflix's Wu Assassins. I did notice the difference with Captain Marvel but I know Disney's atmos tracks can sometimes be weak. I noticed the difference a lot more on Wu Assassins and could really feel the bass during many of the scenes. I may end up tweaking it a bit but what you suggested did solve my problem. I only have one row of seating (a couch) and the bass seems consistent across all seats so I don't think a 2nd sub would do anything for me. I didn't notice any issues with localization either even when I turned it up past my normal listening levels.
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post #18 of 18 Old 08-16-2019, 07:05 PM
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Adding a second PC2000 would absolutely be your best bet for the money. It would more than double overall performance since that’s just how it works with two identical subs. Probably like 2.5 times your current performance.

My Home Theater System:
* 2 Klipsch Cornwall III speakers + 1 Klipsch Heresy III speaker
* 1 Paradigm Defiance X15 subwoofer (adding one more X15 soon)
* 1 Anthem AVM 60 Preamplifier/Processor + 1 Monoprice Monolith 5
* 1 LG C8 65" OLED 4K HDR Dolby Atmos Smart TV
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