Need better subwoofer for large (4000cft) listening room - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 10 Old 08-22-2019, 03:18 AM - Thread Starter
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Need better subwoofer for large (4000cft) listening room

room:
Concrete floor (basement) (tactile response is less on concrete according to section Tactile Response and Low-Frequency Sounds in post /113-subwoofers-bass-transducers/2958528-guide-subwoofer-calibration-bass-preferences)
28ft 3in length (863.5cm)
16ft 8in width (507.8cm)
8ft 6in tall (259cm)
4002~ cubic feet

Setup:
Pair of Klipsch RP-280FA’s
Denon X4400H
Klipsch Reference 10” R100SW (ported)
SVS 16” SB16-Ultra on SVS isolation feet (sealed)
(I only use one sub at a time, don’t worry)

Purpose: 70% listening room (I want it to resemble a Rave), 15% gaming, 15% home theater. I want really punchy, tactile response in the chest. I want it to feel like a rave setup. I listen at high volumes mostly (yell to communicate), I don’t need crazy good sound on low volumes.

Budget: < $5k, but I’d rather pay less than more. $2k would be nice.

Space / Visual Constraints: I want to put a projector screen on the wall the speakers (and almost definitely subs) will be on. I want as much space as I can for the screen, and height is the limiting factor assuming I put them on the same wall as the screen (I think that would be the best for acoustics). If it’s much better for me to break the height barrier for the subs, I’ll have to build a projector screen and place it a considerable distance from the wall.

Reason to switch: I had the Klipsch Reference 10” R100SW already. I now have my large ~4000 cubic foot room and it clearly doesn’t cut it. So I bought the SVS SB16-Ultra. I was expecting amazing things, but it’s not even close to what I want. It just doesn’t provide any tactile response at all, unless you sit directly in front of it. I want 80%+ of my room to have crazy chest-pounding sensation to the music. So it’s not even close to cutting it.

I’ve only run a single subwoofer at a time (since one is ported and the other sealed). The SVS should give massively more bass, but it doesn’t feel like a big change.

I’m convinced a part of the issue is that my Klipsch towers are ported. I know the ported and sealed bass are cancelling each other to some effect. I tested playing music with one tower (and the sealed sub) plugged in, and as I unplugged the tower, I got considerable bass increase at a certain freq range.

So I should have bought sealed. Now my question is, which sealed should I get? I really want huge tactile response for music. I listen to electronic, and I want it to absolute kick on dubstep/trap. What’s the most effective way to do this?

I’ve already decided I need ported (because of the above issue with bass cancellation with the towers, and ported gives more tactile response). And I’m 80% sure I want to buy 2 (or more) subwoofers for a) more evenly distributed bass in my room (very important) and b) more bass / tactile response.

I feel that all the big bad subwoofers I’ve browsed are more obviously marketed as home theater. While I would absolutely love if they totally rocked for movies, my main concern is music. Is there a specific type of subwoofer I should be looking for? I didn’t even consider custom cabinets until I started looking deeper.

The easy (but expensive) solution would be to buy a pair of SVS PB16-Ultras. But I want to see if that's the best solution for the problem, or if I can get a better setup for my use case at $3k or something.

Pictures:

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post #2 of 10 Old 08-22-2019, 03:58 AM
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Your biggest issue is most likely the concrete. If you want tactile response, you are better off with ported, not sealed. The fact that your towers are ported makes no difference. The towers should have the crossover set in the receiver where there are not fighting the subwoofer (80hz is the suggested starting point).

As far as which sub, I'd be looking at subs like the JTR2400, JTR4000, and the PSA TV36. The TV36 can easily be put on its side which would make the height 20". If you can do two, that would be better. Finally, since the concrete will always be an issue for you, I'd be looking at implementing a BOSS mini-riser.

The cheapest option of these would be the standard version of the PSA TV36 which runs $2100 or $2200 shipped if I remember right on promo. It's not on the website. You need to e-mail them and ask about it.
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Last edited by bargugl; 08-22-2019 at 04:06 AM.
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post #3 of 10 Old 08-22-2019, 04:27 AM
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As awesome as the TV36 is (trust me, I own two :P) I would probably call Tom first and check if the V3611 will be better for this use. Music, even rave-y stuff, doesn't often go much below 40 Hz, so a 10 Hz tuned HT sub isn't really needed, especially since there is generally a tradeoff in midbass efficiency. A pair of V3611 might be better in this situation. Same goes for the JTR offerings. Great for HT, maybe not so great for high volume raving out. I think the Orbit Shifter LFU is probably better in this case, if JTR was picked.

TLDR: PSA TV36 (neo or ipal if it's in the budget) or PSA V3611 pending input from [email protected], or JTR Orbit Shifter LFU (if still available, it's not listed on the main product page but still exists here http://www.jtrspeakers.com/orbit-shifter-lfu.html ) would be my choices.

edit: I just noticed OP said this: "I want it to feel like a rave setup. I listen at high volumes mostly (yell to communicate), I don’t need crazy good sound on low volumes." - Not to nag too much, but be careful with that, you only get one set of ears, and once you break them, they're broken. Get a dB meter and stay safe.
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post #4 of 10 Old 08-22-2019, 05:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ratbuddy View Post
As awesome as the TV36 is (trust me, I own two :P) I would probably call Tom first and check if the V3611 will be better for this use. Music, even rave-y stuff, doesn't often go much below 40 Hz, so a 10 Hz tuned HT sub isn't really needed, especially since there is generally a tradeoff in midbass efficiency. A pair of V3611 might be better in this situation. Same goes for the JTR offerings. Great for HT, maybe not so great for high volume raving out. I think the Orbit Shifter LFU is probably better in this case, if JTR was picked.

TLDR: PSA TV36 (neo or ipal if it's in the budget) or PSA V3611 pending input from [email protected], or JTR Orbit Shifter LFU (if still available, it's not listed on the main product page but still exists here http://www.jtrspeakers.com/orbit-shifter-lfu.html ) would be my choices.

edit: I just noticed OP said this: "I want it to feel like a rave setup. I listen at high volumes mostly (yell to communicate), I don’t need crazy good sound on low volumes." - Not to nag too much, but be careful with that, you only get one set of ears, and once you break them, they're broken. Get a dB meter and stay safe.
Good call. I somehow entirely missed the paragraph where he said only 15% HT and my mind was entirely on HT. Bah! That's what I get responding too early in the morning.
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post #5 of 10 Old 08-22-2019, 05:40 AM
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I had a JTR Orbit Shifter LFU and had trouble with placement, amp humming and other things. I didn't receive any support and ended up returning it eating big bucks in the process.

Horns can be a very good option in your situation, especially DIY, horns but I also recommend contacting Tom at PSA to get his ideas on what might be the best fit for you. Be sure to ask about the V36 series, the TV36 (dual 18" iPals) and the TV42 (dual 21" ipals). I don't think the TV36 or TV42 are on the website yet so you'll need to ask.
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post #6 of 10 Old 08-22-2019, 06:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zorax2 View Post
I had a JTR Orbit Shifter LFU and had trouble with placement, amp humming and other things. I didn't receive any support and ended up returning it eating big bucks in the process.

Horns can be a very good option in your situation, especially DIY, horns but I also recommend contacting Tom at PSA to get his ideas on what might be the best fit for you. Be sure to ask about the V36 series, the TV36 (dual 18" iPals) and the TV42 (dual 21" ipals). I don't think the TV36 or TV42 are on the website yet so you'll need to ask.
The TV36ipal is on there, https://www.powersoundaudio.com/products/tv36-ipal though the listing is a little incomplete thus far. At the preorder price, it's probably the best bargain in subwoofers today if you're shopping in that price range.
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post #7 of 10 Old 08-22-2019, 07:02 AM
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On Facebook, Tom said they had (2) V3600 in the outlet, $2500 for both. That's a great deal for your space.
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post #8 of 10 Old 08-22-2019, 07:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrRABBIT View Post
The easy (but expensive) solution would be to buy a pair of SVS PB16-Ultras. But I want to see if that's the best solution for the problem, or if I can get a better setup for my use case at $3k or something.
Yeah, you could go with a couple of those and call it a day. You want that continuous all night high quality thump in the chest. Alternatively, one or two of these JBL SRX828SP dual 18" pro audio brutes will give you the quality and quantity bass you are after. It has all of the tech, DSP, phone app, LCD display, 3" voice Coils, 2000 watt peak rated amp, etc, etc. as what you have now with the SB16. This thing will do 134dB at 67Hz and about 140dB peak! One of these has the output of two of their SRX818SP single 18" subs. Which you could go with one, two, three, four singles and place them around the room. The singles have a lower frequency peak focus. Read the passage below:

JBL SRX828SP ($1999)- https://www.jblpro.com/www/products/.../srx828sp#Tech
JBL SRX818SP ($1599) - https://www.jblpro.com/www/products/...p#.XV6c8OhKhPY


Quote:
BASSBOSS - David Lee BASSBOSS Team

Oct 27, 2015

Hi John,

In frequency response terms, the JBL SRX828 performs almost identically to two SRX818, meaning it gives you the same frequency response with 6dB more output. The JBL SRX828 offers maximum continuous output of 134dB at 67Hz. That means peak output can be calculated to 140dB.

The BASSBOSS SSP118 is competitive with the SRX828, offering almost equivalent output between 35 and 50Hz. The SRX828 offers more output above 50Hz and a bit more below 40Hz. This is to be expected from a double driver sub. The design is essentially two SRX818 boxes joined at the port side. The SRX828 will deliver a bit more very low bass at maximum output because it helps to have another 18" cone to displace that air.

At maximum level, the JBL offers 3dB more output at 30Hz, 2dB more output at 35Hz, 0.8dB more output at 40Hz, 0.3dB more output at 45Hz and 0.7dB more output at 50Hz. Above 50Hz the two lines diverge, with the JBL continuing higher and the SSP118 going lower. At 55Hz the JBL double-18 shows a 3dB advantage, at 60Hz it shows a 4.2dB advantage, at 65Hz it shows a 5.7dB advantage, which it holds through 90Hz.

The SSP118 was designed to be a subwoofer, to deliver as much deep bass as possible from a relatively small, portable enclosure. The fact that is does an excellent job at this is evident in the fact that between 40 and 50Hz, it runs neck-and-neck with either a double 18" subwoofer, or two single 18"s. In either case, the JBL's are twice its size. The SSP118 offers better low bass performance than all competitors' similarly sized single 18" subs that we've so far tested, and better than some that are much larger, including the Yorkville 21". The JBL SRX828 double-18 is the first box tested to offer more low frequency output than the single-18" SSP118.

An important thing to consider that is demonstrated in the response graph is the sound "character". It's true that you can't hear a loudspeaker by looking at a response graph but you can get an indication of its character. These graphs can tell you a lot about what to expect in terms of "sound quality". You can determine where the energy is focused, what it does best and the overall balance across its spectrum. This does give you a good indication of what it's going to sound like. The words people use to describe these things vary but a high resolution frequency response measurement graph will tell you a lot about the "character" of a loudspeaker. Is the energy focused at the bottom end of the spectrum, in the middle, or at the top? What does it give up and where does it peak when you turn it up to the limit?

Under normal operating conditions, the SSP118's energy is focused between 35 and 55Hz. What it gives up when it enters compression is some of the energy between 25 and 45Hz. When pushed to the limit, it peaks at 50Hz.

The JBL SRX828's energy is focused between 47 and 83Hz. It gives up energy between 30 and 50Hz when it enters compression. When pushed to the limit, it peaks at 67Hz.

At maximum output above 50Hz, the SSP118's output decreases where the SRX828's output increases. This gets into the area of design choices and philosophy. Both at maximum and below maximum, the SSP118's output decreases above 50Hz. This is a deliberate choice intended to give the SSP118 a full, rich tone, to make it sound big and deep. To give it a big and deep character, it could not be designed to also go as loud in the upper end of its range. This is necessary to allow the SSP118 to get as loud as possible as low as possible and, when it's turned up to the limit, to prevent it from changing character and sounding different. Thus, at any level the SSP118 has a "deeper voice" than either of the SRX boxes.

In comparison to the SRX818, the SSP118 is deeper and louder. The SRX828 has a louder voice, but if you wanted to give the SRX828 a deeper voice, to match the tonality and balance of the SSP118, you would have to give up on much of the area where it is louder. So, if you like your bass deeper, the SSP118 will do very nearly everything the SRX828 will do from a box that's half the size. That said, the SRX828 is a good product for the price. Next we'll be testing it against our double 18" subs, and we'll post that as soon as we have the testing done.

BASSBOSS SSP118: 130dB continuous. 136dB peak. Peak output frequency: 50Hz
JBL SRX828SP: 134dB continuous, 140dB peak. Peak output frequency: 67Hz

On the subject of limits, if you do tend to run your system buried in the limiters and every bit of output is necessary, it might be tempting to consider the higher output SRX828. On the other hand, the BASSBOSS warranty covers your boxes for 6 years, your amps for 3 years AND covers you against blown voice coils for 2 years. The JBL warranty covers the boxes for only 2 years, the amps for 3 years and if you blow the drivers you aren't covered at all.

Thanks for your questions, I'm enjoying testing these subs!

best
David Lee
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Last edited by WLDock; 08-22-2019 at 07:12 AM.
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post #9 of 10 Old 08-22-2019, 07:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Docethic View Post
On Facebook, Tom said they had (2) V3600 in the outlet, $2500 for both. That's a great deal for your space.
Oh Yes, that's truck loads more bass for $500 more then the price of the SB16 he already has. I feel a rave coming on! Ooch, Ooch, Ooch, Ooch!

I'm an old school Chicago house, Detroit Techno lover myself. I remember back in the 80-90's having my organs shifted from the chest thumping bass at some of the Detroit clubs back then. I once danced for 2-3 Hrs straight! The music/bass took control and we were slaves to the rhythm. No drugs were involved just the Derrick May "Mayday" house/techno pied piper mixes on the tables. I was drenched in sweat at the end. Those were the days....
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Speakers - Main - Boston Acoustics Lynnfield VR965 | Center - Boston Acoustics Lynnfield VR920 | Rear - Artison Portrait LRS
| Sub - DIY Stereo Integrity HT 15 | Sub Amp - O Audio BASH 500

Last edited by WLDock; 08-22-2019 at 07:34 AM.
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post #10 of 10 Old 08-23-2019, 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Docethic View Post
On Facebook, Tom said they had (2) V3600 in the outlet, $2500 for both. That's a great deal for your space.
Yup , that will get him the Rave he is looking for!! The V36's are known as midbass monsters!
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