JTR Cap 2400 versus PSA V18ipal - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 379Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #31 of 144 Old 09-06-2019, 09:55 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
imureh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 4,505
Mentioned: 209 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2815 Post(s)
Liked: 3513
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Ol View Post
Just to be clear, I think the 2400 is an awesome sub. I don't believe I have said a bad word about it in any of my posts. Had the TV36 not come along I never would have changed. I simply prefer the sound signature of the TV36 ipal in my room with my equipment. I also agree that the dual driver TV36 vs. the single driver in the 2400 may not be a fair comparison.

That being said, the OP wanted opinions for a sub on a 100% music system. Again, the 2400 is an awesome sub. But for purely music, I don't think you need to go down to 10 Hz and a different sub designed for more mid bass might be a better fit. A V18 ipal may be better suited for the OP's needs, or even a JTR118 or Rythmik. But we all hear things differently, and each room is different. It will always come down to personal preference.


I think Dave the clarification provided by Jeff are in response to some very definitive statements being made saying the ipal is better music by a long shot.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
spyboy, Dave Ol and audiofan1 like this.

Subwoofers: Dual Rythmik FV18s Rev2 with Paper cone, BOSS Platform mini riser, 2 BK LFE
Speakers: PSA MTM-210 L/C/R - Klipsch 250S Surrounds, PSA MT 110sr Rear Surrounds, 4 x SVS Prime Elevation for Atmos
Video: Epson PowerLite Home Cinema 6500 UB; Room: 2100 cuft sealed on suspended floor
Receiver & Players: Denon X4400H, Oppo UDP-203, Roku Ultra. Apple TV, Minidsp 2X4 HD
imureh is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #32 of 144 Old 09-06-2019, 10:01 PM
Senior Member
 
Dave Ol's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Brentwood, CA
Posts: 209
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 135 Post(s)
Liked: 586
Quote:
Originally Posted by BassMojo View Post
So many factors here, such as the room, how hard you push your listening levels, the type of music that you enjoy and which speakers/processor/amps/sources you match them with. Chasing the “best” can be a never-ending and expensive endeavor. It’s a fun hobby and remember to enjoy it.

I’ve owned three of the 2400s (one was @Dave Ol ’s). They sound great for music. I listen to 70/30 music over HT. They do both well. I recently replaced three 2400s with two JTR 4000s. I didn’t find the benefit that I was hoping for in going from two to three, so opted for two (only) of the biggest subs that I could manage. They sound outstanding for music and I cannot hear any distortion (boomy or muddy) at all. I listen to them about twelve hours each day that I am home (often). Even right now as I write this.

@toddct makes some great points here. Most music doesn’t even extend down to the lower frequencies where distortion exist. Movies don’t that much either, unless you BEQ (I personally don’t, yet). Hopefully PSA will send their subs to Data-Bass for some independent and objective testing to see some apples to apples comparisons. BTW, I believe PSA may have a real winner with the TV42 ipal. Also I don’t typically listen to my music at 120db, but I could if I wanted my ears to bleed and house to break (not kidding). No thanks.

@ereed also makes stellar points. Dave previously pointed the same out when he and I compared his 2400 and TV36. It would be completely unfair (Dave never represented any unfairness) to compare a single driver (2400) to a dual driver (TV36) subs. Also, those two subs are designed for different objectives. In the unscientific comparison that we did that day, the subs were located in separate locations and his processor was calibrated (I believe, didn’t ask) for the TV36. In his arrangement (and regardless), the single TV36 outperformed the single 2400 as one would expect. The truest of comparisons would be equal db leveling without room correction at the identical location with the same selection of several different types of music and movies.

I am not saying that the PSA subs are inferior, they are awesome too! I really liked Dave’s TV36 ipal. It has great sonics. With his situation, it was the best choice for what he was looking to accomplish. Every room have limitations. I also have noticed significant improved sonic improvements going from 2400s (single drivers) to 4000s (dual drivers). I cannot really explain why, other than I really like the improved sonics.I am also a student in this hobby and always am willing to learn and improve. I’ll give an open invitation to anyone in N Cal to stop by and bring their subs so that we can compare them. Although I have JTR speakers and subs, I am objective and not attempting any purchase justification.

I would suggest making the best decision for your situation. Only you can properly determine this. Try to demo/listen to both subs if you can. I personally think that you will be very happy with either.
Outstanding post Brian. I think you are spot on. It really comes down to what ones ears really think sounds better in their room. In my posts, I was trying to give my opinion to the OP on his request for opinions. But just because I feel one way may not be the way he might feel.

To the section I have highlighted in your post above. I had my processor turned off so as not to advantage one sub over the other (in fact, I typically leave it off as I don't like the way Yamaha's YPAO system works). Subs were dB level matched using an SPL. When you were there, I did not pull out the TV36 and put the 2400 in it's place just because of the sheer weight of the TV36. But during my own testing (to see which one I would keep) I did move them.
BassMojo likes this.
Dave Ol is offline  
post #33 of 144 Old 09-06-2019, 10:06 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 283
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 197 Post(s)
Liked: 360
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Ol View Post
Outstanding post Brian. I think you are spot on. It really comes down to what ones ears really think sounds better in their room. In my posts, I was trying to give my opinion to the OP on his request for opinions. But just because I feel one way may not be the way he might feel.

To the section I have highlighted in your post above. I had my processor turned off so as not to advantage one sub over the other (in fact, I typically leave it off as I don't like the way Yamaha's YPAO system works). Subs were dB level matched using an SPL. When you were there, I did not pull out the TV36 and put the 2400 in it's place just because of the sheer weight of the TV36. But during my own testing (to see which one I would keep) I did move them.
Perfect, thanks for the further clarification.
BassMojo is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #34 of 144 Old 09-07-2019, 01:39 AM
Member
 
tojo_m's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Chandler, AZ
Posts: 140
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 131 Post(s)
Liked: 157
OP, my $0.02: How loud do you need your music to be? You could look up the CEA numbers for the cap 2400 and gauge if you will need the mid bass levels to be even higher. You mentioned open concept room, so your room gain (pressure vessel) may not be much for mid bass frequencies. Will the sub be in a corner at least for some good boundary gain? How far will you sit from it?
I think some good points have been made about not assuming that the 2400 may not be accurate enough for good music, which is hard to believe, especially in a large room.
Will you be able to measure and correct the response using tools like REW and a calibrated mic?
What kinds of main speakers will you use and what frequency will you cross them over at? What amps will drive the mains?

What kind of music do you listen to? There is a decent selection of music that can go pretty low.
In general I believe it’s tougher/more expensive to reproduce ultra low frequencies than mid bass, especially if you want to perceive the low frequencies as loud as the mid bass frequencies. For example, I find 110db at 50Hz much louder than 110db at 25Hz.
Finally, are you very sure that you may not want to repurpose this sub for home theater usage sometime in the future?

------------------
Polk LSiM 705 towers, 706 center, RC80i surrounds, Denon X4400H, Emotiva XPA-100 monoblocks, Dual 2019 JTR-118HTs (Color -Mini Cooper Spice Orange metallic), LG 77" C8 OLED, Panny 65" Plasma.
tojo_m is offline  
post #35 of 144 Old 09-07-2019, 07:54 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
ratbuddy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,130
Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 833 Post(s)
Liked: 1146
Quote:
Originally Posted by toddct View Post
@10dbdown , while I don't disagree with the recommendation that the V18ipal might be a better fit for your stated priorities, I am going to give an alternative view for the 2400 concerning distortion and music.

This is directly taken from Databass concerning distortion for the 2400:

Distortion Testing Results
The distortion results for the Cap 2400 are commendable. During the 100dB nominal sweep the THD is below 7.5% over the entire bass bandwidth. The 105dB nominal sweep is also good with THD maxing out at 11% at 15Hz and otherwise remaining well below 10%. The 110dB sweep causes an increase in THD below 20Hz where driver excursion is highest. THD reaches 22% at 15Hz but remains below 10% above 22Hz. The 115dB sweep again increases distortion below 25Hz with driver excursion getting quite large. THD remains at or below 11% above 24Hz though. The final 120dB sweep pushes the sub deep into the limiter but doesn't increase the distortion much as the sub was close to max output during the 115dB sweep. THD reaches 50% at 10Hz which tapers off to 20% by 20Hz. Distortion above 24Hz remains below 15%. the harmonic makeup of the distortion is primarily the 3rd harmonic below 24Hz and a mixture of the 2nd and 3rd above that point.


And, unless I am completely wrong, these measurements are taken outside so the distortion levels will be much lower in-room.

The implication that the 2400 is just designed to go low and loud is a bit simplified IMO. It handles music very well but it does have a more robust sound signature as Mike has alluded to. Maybe you like that, maybe you don't. Only you would know by actually listening to both at the same time in the same room set up in the same way. The V18ipal may have more SPL in the mid-bass but no doubt will have a different sound signature.

Just giving you a different perspective.

Todd
Don't suppose you have any in-room 2400 compression sweep .mdats you can share? I don't know how indoor vs outdoor distortion numbers typically line up, but looking at my own in-room numbers, at the loudest levels I could stand, distortion numbers are single digits, with most frequencies being in the 2% range. That seems very significantly better, but I don't know how the 2400 distortion would measure in-room..
ratbuddy is offline  
post #36 of 144 Old 09-07-2019, 08:07 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
lizrussspike's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Parkview, IA
Posts: 2,996
Mentioned: 31 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1191 Post(s)
Liked: 1775
@Jeff Permanian m stats are stats all day long, but room orientation with a umik and rew can make magic for most subs. I just think that one needs to find the best sub they can in their price range that they can afford, and make the most of it.
lizrussspike is offline  
post #37 of 144 Old 09-07-2019, 08:13 AM
Senior Member
 
toddct's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 405
Mentioned: 46 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 262 Post(s)
Liked: 754
Quote:
Originally Posted by ratbuddy View Post
Don't suppose you have any in-room 2400 compression sweep .mdats you can share? I don't know how indoor vs outdoor distortion numbers typically line up, but looking at my own in-room numbers, at the loudest levels I could stand, distortion numbers are single digits, with most frequencies being in the 2% range. That seems very significantly better, but I don't know how the 2400 distortion would measure in-room..
I have REW measurements but I was mostly concerned with FR. I'll see what I have to accomodate you. I'm sure other JTR owners who know REW much better probably have some.

I'm sure your PSA has low distortion in-room. And of course your in-room PSA distortion is better than the 2400 outside distortion. Why wouldn't it be? Are you saying that is a "fair" comparison, an indoor measurement vs. outdoor? You obviously know that is not a fair comparison because you say "but I don't know how the 2400 distortion would measure in-room" but yet preface that with "That seems very significantly better".

Todd
jamiebosco and audiofan1 like this.

“People say nothing is impossible, but I do nothing every day.”― A.A. Milne, Winnie-the-Pooh
toddct is offline  
post #38 of 144 Old 09-07-2019, 08:22 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
ratbuddy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,130
Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 833 Post(s)
Liked: 1146
Quote:
Originally Posted by toddct View Post
I'm sure your PSA has low distortion in-room. And of course your in-room PSA distortion is better than the 2400 outside distortion. Why wouldn't it be? Are you saying that is a "fair" comparison, an indoor measurement vs. outdoor? You obviously know that is not a fair comparison because you say "but I don't know how the 2400 distortion would measure in-room" but yet preface that with "That seems very significantly better".

Todd
There's no hidden meaning to anything I said. I simply don't know what kind of distortion numbers subs usually put up indoors vs outdoors. Does it cut in half? 1/10? I have no idea. That's why I'd like to see some in-room compression numbers for a 2400.
ratbuddy is offline  
post #39 of 144 Old 09-07-2019, 08:41 AM
AVS ***** Member
 
mthomas47's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 8,235
Mentioned: 338 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5459 Post(s)
Liked: 10371
I don't want to get in the middle of what has turned into way more of a controversy than it should be. The Cap 2400 is a very good subwoofer, and so I believe is the new V1812 iPal. The OP, who seems to have opted-out of the recent discussion, would probably be very happy with either subwoofer.

With respect to distortion, I believe that distortion is inherent to the subwoofer, as it is pushed close to its limits. Room gain will enable any subwoofer to achieve higher SPL indoors, than it could achieve outdoors. So, any subwoofer should be able to play louder, with proportionally less distortion indoors, than it could outdoors. But, as the subwoofer approaches its limits indoors, I believe that the inherent distortion profile will remain relatively consistent.

FWIW, I don't believe that distortion alone explains apparent differences in sound signature among subwoofers. I have read a number of subwoofer makers attempt to explain differences in sound quality, and although they don't seem to be able to consistently pinpoint those differences to exactly the same factors, the consensus seems to be that there are multiple factors involved.

As noted by a number of posters, different people will inevitably prefer different sound signatures (to the extent that they hear distinct differences to begin with) and differences in listening material, and in room geometry and construction, will probably be factors in their preferences.

Regards,
Mike
MKtheater, toddct, Dave Ol and 5 others like this.

GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
mthomas47 is offline  
post #40 of 144 Old 09-07-2019, 08:56 AM
Senior Member
 
toddct's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 405
Mentioned: 46 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 262 Post(s)
Liked: 754
Quote:
Originally Posted by ratbuddy View Post
There's no hidden meaning to anything I said. I simply don't know what kind of distortion numbers subs usually put up indoors vs outdoors. Does it cut in half? 1/10? I have no idea. That's why I'd like to see some in-room compression numbers for a 2400.
Gotcha, let me see if I can read up a bit on the REW distortion measurements. I'm actually curious myself now. But like Mike said, it likely has a small part in the sound signatures particularly when distortion levels are low.

Todd

“People say nothing is impossible, but I do nothing every day.”― A.A. Milne, Winnie-the-Pooh
toddct is offline  
post #41 of 144 Old 09-07-2019, 09:04 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
MKtheater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: New Hartford, NY
Posts: 18,629
Mentioned: 135 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2495 Post(s)
Liked: 2552
I am not sure what the room does exactly, but it lowers distortion by quite a bit. Dual drivers lowers it close to half, and then even more indoors, it did for my drivers and adding much more spl too boot.

Nothing right now
MKtheater is offline  
post #42 of 144 Old 09-07-2019, 09:09 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
enricoclaudio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 5,701
Mentioned: 269 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3773 Post(s)
Liked: 4605
There is no linear conversion between CEA-2010 (Ground Plane) and IN ROOM distortion numbers as IN ROOM measurements depend of room dimensions/room gain. When Josh measured the FV18, F18 and FV25HP he did measure IN ROOM as well. As you can see, for the FV18, at some frequencies THD% is less IN ROOM but at some frequencies is more than CEA-2010. In general, IN ROOM THD% measurements are less than ground plane outside measurements.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Screen Shot 2019-09-07 at 11.02.14 AM.png
Views:	23
Size:	789.5 KB
ID:	2612240  

Enrico Castagnetti @ Rythmik Audio - Dialing In Rythmik Audio Subwoofers - REW for macOS
Media Room: Sierra Towers w/RAAL, Horizon w/RAAL, Sierra 2s & Lunas | Rythmik F12SE(x2) + FV25HP | Denon X6500H | Panny 820 + ATV 4K | Bluesound Node 2 | Sony 77A9G OLED |
Desktop: Dynaudio BM5 mkIII | Rythmik L22 | Apogee Quartet | 27" iMac| Bedroom: B&W 685 S2 | Rythmik LVX12 | Marantz SR6013 | Sony X700 + ATV 4K | Sony XBR-65Z9D |
enricoclaudio is offline  
post #43 of 144 Old 09-07-2019, 09:20 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
chucky7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Rancho Cucamonga, CA
Posts: 4,639
Mentioned: 297 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3539 Post(s)
Liked: 4535
Based on the date I have on hand, the 2400 is +8dB @ 16Hz, +5dB @ 20Hz and +4dB @ 25~40Hz vs the V1801.

We don't really know how loud the OP listens. If he listen at -15dB for music, both subs will have THD well under 3% in room.

The last time I checked, a subwoofer is the combination of a woofer, a cabinet and an amp. Replacing the driver with a top notch woofer is not going to turn a sub that was overmatched in at least 2 GTGs into the most musical sub @ $1850.

Just because the TV36-IPAL sounds good doesn't mean that the V1812 with the IPAL driver will also sound good.

Speakers: L/C/R: JTR Noesis 212HT. Surrounds: Jamo C103, KEF Q100, Polk Audio RTiA3.
Subwoofer: JTR Captivator 4000ULF.
AVR: Denon AVR-X4400H. TV: Samsung UN75NU8000FXZA.

FS: Jamo C103, KEF Q100 and Polk RTiA3
chucky7 is online now  
post #44 of 144 Old 09-07-2019, 09:24 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
ratbuddy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,130
Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 833 Post(s)
Liked: 1146
Quote:
Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
Based on the date I have on hand, the 2400 is +8dB @ 16Hz, +5dB @ 20Hz and +4dB @ 25~40Hz vs the V1801
Interesting, so if the V18 gets a driver with.. what, 7-8 dB more sensitivity swapped in, above the lower excursion-limited frequencies, the 2400 could be in some trouble
rhelliott2 likes this.
ratbuddy is offline  
post #45 of 144 Old 09-07-2019, 09:30 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
MKtheater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: New Hartford, NY
Posts: 18,629
Mentioned: 135 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2495 Post(s)
Liked: 2552
Quote:
Originally Posted by enricoclaudio View Post
There is no linear conversion between CEA-2010 (Ground Plane) and IN ROOM distortion numbers as IN ROOM measurements depend of room dimensions/room gain. When Josh measured the FV18, F18 and FV25HP he did measure IN ROOM as well. As you can see, for the FV18, at some frequencies THD% is less IN ROOM but at some frequencies is more than CEA-2010. In general, IN ROOM THD% measurements are less than ground plane outside measurements.
IMHO the only reason it would go up is if you have room rattles or shakes that can add to the mic measurements.

Nothing right now
MKtheater is offline  
post #46 of 144 Old 09-07-2019, 09:33 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
tvuong's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 5,285
Mentioned: 91 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2587 Post(s)
Liked: 2327
Quote:
Originally Posted by BassMojo View Post
So many factors here
Great post. To the Op or anyone asking which sub is better, only listen to those who have heard the subs or they are just guessing game/opinions with some bias in it. BassMojo, perhaps you could arrange with Dave O to have the 4000ulf TV36ipal shootout? This is a much closer to a fair comparison.
tvuong is offline  
post #47 of 144 Old 09-07-2019, 09:35 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
basshead81's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Fort Wayne, IN
Posts: 13,198
Mentioned: 186 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 323 Post(s)
Liked: 9210
Just because PSA started using IPAL & NEO drivers doesn't mean JTR has become inferior by any means. I am not sure why some JTR owners feel threatened by the fact PSA has upped their game? It's still pretty much the same thing as it has been. Comparing apples to apples, JTR is still stronger in the ultra low bass(10-20hz), PSA still has the edge up in the bass frequencies more commonly used. The IPAL's and NEO's allowed PSA to lower the tuning points for deeper extension while maintaining the upper bass slam they are know for while keeping distortion incredibly low. It doesn't mean JTR's drivers are all of a sudden not musical or suffer from higher distortion. The competition between the 2 companies is resulting in better products being offered for us the consumers. So why not have a coke and a smile and applaud both brands for bringing us awesome products to chose from?
basshead81 is offline  
post #48 of 144 Old 09-07-2019, 09:38 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
sk373's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,475
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 780 Post(s)
Liked: 1116
Ugh. I suppose it was inevitable that this thread would start to degenerate into “JTR is teh win and PSA sux0r!”and “NO YUO! PSA r0x0r and JTR sounds like p00 p00”! 🙄

To the OP, both subs will be more than up to the task, but will have different sound signatures. I don’t think one is “better” than the other—it’s a matter of preference. Some people like vanilla ice cream, others like chocolate.

My humble main system:
Vizio M75-E1; Oppo 203 universal UHD player; Denon 4300H AVR, Dual PSA S1801's; Monitor Audio Silver RX-6 mains, RX center, and RX surrounds; one pair NHT mini Atmos speakers; Home-built HTPC (Xeon E1230, 16gb RAM, Crucial M500 480gb SSD, GeForce 980Ti, Corsair CX600, CoolerMaster mini-ITX case); Roku Premiere+; Amazon 4K Fire TV
sk373 is offline  
post #49 of 144 Old 09-07-2019, 09:44 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 283
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 197 Post(s)
Liked: 360
Quote:
Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
Great post. To the Op or anyone asking which sub is better, only listen to those who have heard the subs or they are just guessing game/opinions with some bias in it. BassMojo, perhaps you could arrange with Dave O to have the 4000ulf TV36ipal shootout? This is a much closer to a fair comparison.
I love this idea and it would be a ton of fun! Both Dave and I are very open-minded and welcome a learning experience. The challenge for both of us is that the TV36 at 211 pounds and the 4000 at 265 pounds are monsters and moving and transporting them is not easy. We also live ~2 hours from each other too.
oneeyeblind and Dave Ol like this.

Last edited by BassMojo; 09-07-2019 at 09:56 AM.
BassMojo is offline  
post #50 of 144 Old 09-07-2019, 09:48 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
10dbdown's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 118
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 84 Post(s)
Liked: 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
I don't want to get in the middle of what has turned into way more of a controversy than it should be. The Cap 2400 is a very good subwoofer, and so I believe is the new V1812 iPal. The OP, who seems to have opted-out of the recent discussion, would probably be very happy with either subwoofer.

With respect to distortion, I believe that distortion is inherent to the subwoofer, as it is pushed close to its limits. Room gain will enable any subwoofer to achieve higher SPL indoors, than it could achieve outdoors. So, any subwoofer should be able to play louder, with proportionally less distortion indoors, than it could outdoors. But, as the subwoofer approaches its limits indoors, I believe that the inherent distortion profile will remain relatively consistent.

FWIW, I don't believe that distortion alone explains apparent differences in sound signature among subwoofers. I have read a number of subwoofer makers attempt to explain differences in sound quality, and although they don't seem to be able to consistently pinpoint those differences to exactly the same factors, the consensus seems to be that there are multiple factors involved.

As noted by a number of posters, different people will inevitably prefer different sound signatures (to the extent that they hear distinct differences to begin with) and differences in listening material, and in room geometry and construction, will probably be factors in their preferences.

Regards,
Mike
Thanks Mike. Your posts are always well thought out and sound. No, I haven't left the discussion yet. I'm only on avs for a few hours a day and sometimes not even that. My speakers are Diysoundgroup Titans with separate 300 watt amps per speaker. These are 98db speakers crossed at 45 hz. I listen about 14 feet back and I don't plan on using the sub for movies. I occasionally like to crank the music to -9 and my spl meter says that's 94 db so yeah it's loud. The room has a suspended floor and my current sub sits next to the left speaker which is not in a corner but blends the best there. No plans for rew.

10dbdown
10dbdown is offline  
post #51 of 144 Old 09-07-2019, 09:53 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
10dbdown's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 118
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 84 Post(s)
Liked: 54
[QUOTE=basshead81;58526196]Just because PSA started using IPAL & NEO drivers doesn't mean JTR has become inferior by any means. I am not sure why some JTR owners feel threatened by the fact PSA has upped their game? It's still pretty much the same thing as it has been. Comparing apples to apples, JTR is still stronger in the ultra low bass(10-20hz), PSA still has the edge up in the bass frequencies more commonly used. The IPAL's and NEO's allowed PSA to lower the tuning points for deeper extension while maintaining the upper bass slam they are know for while keeping distortion incredibly low. It doesn't mean JTR's drivers are all of a sudden not musical or suffer from higher distortion. The competition between the 2 companies is resulting in better products being offered for us the consumers. So why not have a coke and a smile and applaud both brands for bringing us awesome products to chose from?[/QUOTe

This is exactly what I'm asking. You're saying the 2400 doesn't have the same >30 hz capability as the cap 2400?

10dbdown
10dbdown is offline  
post #52 of 144 Old 09-07-2019, 09:54 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 283
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 197 Post(s)
Liked: 360
Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
Just because PSA started using IPAL & NEO drivers doesn't mean JTR has become inferior by any means. I am not sure why some JTR owners feel threatened by the fact PSA has upped their game? It's still pretty much the same thing as it has been. Comparing apples to apples, JTR is still stronger in the ultra low bass(10-20hz), PSA still has the edge up in the bass frequencies more commonly used. The IPAL's and NEO's allowed PSA to lower the tuning points for deeper extension while maintaining the upper bass slam they are know for while keeping distortion incredibly low. It doesn't mean JTR's drivers are all of a sudden not musical or suffer from higher distortion. The competition between the 2 companies is resulting in better products being offered for us the consumers. So why not have a coke and a smile and applaud both brands for bringing us awesome products to chose from?
Well said @basshead81 , the rising tide raises all the ships. I wish that enthusiasts would not view the two companies raising their game as a "mine is better". Both PSA and JTR make great products and outperform most systems out there. We should all be grateful that we have such amazing options from that both Tom and Jeff provide for us. This is a fun hobby and there are different strokes for different folks. People have different preferences and limitations (room, WAF, etc.). Let us remember to enjoy this journey!
BassMojo is offline  
post #53 of 144 Old 09-07-2019, 09:58 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
imureh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 4,505
Mentioned: 209 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2815 Post(s)
Liked: 3513
Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
Just because PSA started using IPAL & NEO drivers doesn't mean JTR has become inferior by any means. I am not sure why some JTR owners feel threatened by the fact PSA has upped their game? It's still pretty much the same thing as it has been. Comparing apples to apples, JTR is still stronger in the ultra low bass(10-20hz), PSA still has the edge up in the bass frequencies more commonly used. The IPAL's and NEO's allowed PSA to lower the tuning points for deeper extension while maintaining the upper bass slam they are know for while keeping distortion incredibly low. It doesn't mean JTR's drivers are all of a sudden not musical or suffer from higher distortion. The competition between the 2 companies is resulting in better products being offered for us the consumers. So why not have a coke and a smile and applaud both brands for bringing us awesome products to chose from?


Bass, I think it was statements made earlier in the thread that very absolute that the ipal was 1000% better than the JTR did music when that person had not heard these subs. That is what got all of this going. There was no “threat” to any body. At the tv36 price point we should be talking about a comparison to the Cap 4000 any ways.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Subwoofers: Dual Rythmik FV18s Rev2 with Paper cone, BOSS Platform mini riser, 2 BK LFE
Speakers: PSA MTM-210 L/C/R - Klipsch 250S Surrounds, PSA MT 110sr Rear Surrounds, 4 x SVS Prime Elevation for Atmos
Video: Epson PowerLite Home Cinema 6500 UB; Room: 2100 cuft sealed on suspended floor
Receiver & Players: Denon X4400H, Oppo UDP-203, Roku Ultra. Apple TV, Minidsp 2X4 HD
imureh is offline  
post #54 of 144 Old 09-07-2019, 10:00 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
chucky7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Rancho Cucamonga, CA
Posts: 4,639
Mentioned: 297 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3539 Post(s)
Liked: 4535
Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
Just because PSA started using IPAL & NEO drivers doesn't mean JTR has become inferior by any means. I am not sure why some JTR owners feel threatened by the fact PSA has upped their game? It's still pretty much the same thing as it has been. Comparing apples to apples, JTR is still stronger in the ultra low bass(10-20hz), PSA still has the edge up in the bass frequencies more commonly used. The IPAL's and NEO's allowed PSA to lower the tuning points for deeper extension while maintaining the upper bass slam they are know for while keeping distortion incredibly low. It doesn't mean JTR's drivers are all of a sudden not musical or suffer from higher distortion. The competition between the 2 companies is resulting in better products being offered for us the consumers. So why not have a coke and a smile and applaud both brands for bringing us awesome products to chose from?


If you want to be a referee, be a FAIR one...




Adamg (Ret-Navy) likes this.

Speakers: L/C/R: JTR Noesis 212HT. Surrounds: Jamo C103, KEF Q100, Polk Audio RTiA3.
Subwoofer: JTR Captivator 4000ULF.
AVR: Denon AVR-X4400H. TV: Samsung UN75NU8000FXZA.

FS: Jamo C103, KEF Q100 and Polk RTiA3
chucky7 is online now  
post #55 of 144 Old 09-07-2019, 10:05 AM
Advanced Member
 
CallingMrBenzo's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Norther Va
Posts: 843
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 611 Post(s)
Liked: 1315
Quote:
Originally Posted by imureh View Post
Bass, I think it was statements made earlier in the thread that very absolute that the ipal was 1000% better than the JTR did music when that person had not heard these subs. That is what got all of this going. There was no “threat” to any body. At the tv36 price point we should be talking about a comparison to the Cap 4000 any ways.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


My TV 36’s with NEO’s are $2599 how exactly is that comparable to a $3700 sub before shipping ? The IPALs are $2999 right now.

Marantz 7011- Panasonic UB-820- Xbox One X - Epson HC 5050UB *Calibrated by ChadB* - Elite Screen's 2:35:1 AT 115' - PSA MTM 110's L/C/R - Mixed Surrounds - SVS Elevations Atmos X2 - Dual PSA TV36 B&C Neo's *MiniDSP HD* Took the Red Pill BEQ
CallingMrBenzo is offline  
post #56 of 144 Old 09-07-2019, 10:12 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
chucky7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Rancho Cucamonga, CA
Posts: 4,639
Mentioned: 297 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3539 Post(s)
Liked: 4535
Quote:
Originally Posted by CallingMrBenzo View Post
My TV 36’s with NEO’s are $2599 how exactly is that comparable to a $3700 sub before shipping ? The IPALs are $2999 right now.
Well, the OP asked about the V1812 with the IPAL driver...

The regular Cap 4000ULF is $3499 + frt. Isn't the TV36ipal $3199 now?
CallingMrBenzo likes this.

Speakers: L/C/R: JTR Noesis 212HT. Surrounds: Jamo C103, KEF Q100, Polk Audio RTiA3.
Subwoofer: JTR Captivator 4000ULF.
AVR: Denon AVR-X4400H. TV: Samsung UN75NU8000FXZA.

FS: Jamo C103, KEF Q100 and Polk RTiA3
chucky7 is online now  
post #57 of 144 Old 09-07-2019, 10:17 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
ratbuddy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,130
Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 833 Post(s)
Liked: 1146
Quote:
Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post


If you want to be a referee, be a FAIR one...




Could have quoted me so I'd get notification...

Anyway, I stand by my opinion: JTR makes great home theater subs, but I wouldn't get one for a dedicated music system. I've heard them described variously as heavy hitting, deep, thick sounding, and great TR. Perfect for theater, not what you want for music. I don't recall ever hearing one described as musical, though I wasn't really keeping an eye out for that.

Personally, I think OP should be looking between Rythmik and PSA. Sorry if that offends the JTR squad, and please don't see it as a personal attack.
oneeyeblind and rhelliott2 like this.
ratbuddy is offline  
post #58 of 144 Old 09-07-2019, 10:19 AM
Senior Member
 
Dave Ol's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Brentwood, CA
Posts: 209
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 135 Post(s)
Liked: 586
Quote:
Originally Posted by BassMojo View Post
I love this idea and it would be a ton of fun! Both Dave and I are very open-minded and welcome a learning experience. The challenge for both of us is that the TV36 at 211 pounds and the 4000 at 265 pounds are monsters and moving and transporting them is not easy. We also live ~2 hours from each other too.

Agree on both parts - it would be fun, but the logistics would not be. They are both just too large and heavy to be moving around any more than they need to be. And there is no way I could fit the 4000 in my room without moving my entire set up around.

I think the Houston crew would be better suited for this type of shootout - as we all know, everything is bigger in Texas. But that should be a topic on a different post.
CallingMrBenzo and BassMojo like this.
Dave Ol is offline  
post #59 of 144 Old 09-07-2019, 10:26 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
chucky7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Rancho Cucamonga, CA
Posts: 4,639
Mentioned: 297 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3539 Post(s)
Liked: 4535
Quote:
Originally Posted by ratbuddy View Post
Anyway, I stand by my opinion: JTR makes great home theater subs, but I wouldn't get one for a dedicated music system. I've heard them described variously as heavy hitting, deep, thick sounding, and great TR. Perfect for theater, not what you want for music. I don't recall ever hearing one described as musical, though I wasn't really keeping an eye out for that.

Personally, I think OP should be looking between Rythmik and PSA. Sorry if that offends the JTR squad, and please don't see it as a personal attack.
The Captivator was only ranked #2 , behind Seaton Submersives, for music in several double blind GTGs.

Speakers: L/C/R: JTR Noesis 212HT. Surrounds: Jamo C103, KEF Q100, Polk Audio RTiA3.
Subwoofer: JTR Captivator 4000ULF.
AVR: Denon AVR-X4400H. TV: Samsung UN75NU8000FXZA.

FS: Jamo C103, KEF Q100 and Polk RTiA3
chucky7 is online now  
post #60 of 144 Old 09-07-2019, 10:29 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
imureh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 4,505
Mentioned: 209 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2815 Post(s)
Liked: 3513
Quote:
Originally Posted by CallingMrBenzo View Post
My TV 36’s with NEO’s are $2599 how exactly is that comparable to a $3700 sub before shipping ? The IPALs are $2999 right now.


We are talking about ipals tv36


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Subwoofers: Dual Rythmik FV18s Rev2 with Paper cone, BOSS Platform mini riser, 2 BK LFE
Speakers: PSA MTM-210 L/C/R - Klipsch 250S Surrounds, PSA MT 110sr Rear Surrounds, 4 x SVS Prime Elevation for Atmos
Video: Epson PowerLite Home Cinema 6500 UB; Room: 2100 cuft sealed on suspended floor
Receiver & Players: Denon X4400H, Oppo UDP-203, Roku Ultra. Apple TV, Minidsp 2X4 HD
imureh is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply Subwoofers, Bass, and Transducers

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off