JTR Cap 2400 versus PSA V18ipal - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #61 of 144 Old 09-07-2019, 10:32 AM
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Originally Posted by 10dbdown View Post

This is exactly what I'm asking. You're saying the 2400 doesn't have the same >30 hz capability as the cap 2400?

The 2400 and cap 2400 are the same subs. What I think bass was saying was that the PSA has the advantage in the mid bass while the JTR has the advantage in the 10-20 Hz range.
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post #62 of 144 Old 09-07-2019, 10:34 AM
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Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post


If you want to be a referee, be a FAIR one...




How is it not fair? Posts were made in favor of PSA, then posts were made in favor of JTR by bringing up older PSA models. The start of my post was in regards to those 2 posts you quoted. Your response clearly supports what I said in my 2nd sentence.

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post #63 of 144 Old 09-07-2019, 10:39 AM
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Originally Posted by 10dbdown View Post
This is exactly what I'm asking. You're saying the 2400 doesn't have the same >30 hz capability as the cap 2400?
I think you may have missed a few key strokes. And, as you can see, people are very passionate about their subs.

Both are going to be very capable for music and have enough spl for your normal levels. Basshead81 stated the relative strengths very well. They have different designs and therefore will have different sound signatures.

All of this gibberish, including mine, does not change the fact that only you can decide which one is better for you. The best way to make a decision is listen to both in your room. Since the V18ipal isn't out yet that kinda makes that a bit difficult. If you can find someone close that has a 2400 and/or a PSA ipal, that would be the next best thing.

Other than that, you'll have to make an educated choice based on these responses and whatever other research you've done. Not sure there is much else that can be said that hasn't already been stated.

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post #64 of 144 Old 09-07-2019, 10:41 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Dave Ol View Post
The 2400 and cap 2400 are the same subs. What I think bass was saying was that the PSA has the advantage in the mid bass while the JTR has the advantage in the 10-20 Hz range.
Yeah I meant the current Psa v18 subs. Thanks for the correction. Got cap 2400 on the brain.

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post #65 of 144 Old 09-07-2019, 10:53 AM
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Originally Posted by ratbuddy View Post
Could have quoted me so I'd get notification...

Anyway, I stand by my opinion: JTR makes great home theater subs, but I wouldn't get one for a dedicated music system. I've heard them described variously as heavy hitting, deep, thick sounding, and great TR. Perfect for theater, not what you want for music. I don't recall ever hearing one described as musical, though I wasn't really keeping an eye out for that.

Personally, I think OP should be looking between Rythmik and PSA. Sorry if that offends the JTR squad, and please don't see it as a personal attack.
Maybe you missed my post #30 above where I stated that the 2400 and 4000 sound great for both music? Have you heard the 2400 in person? The V18 ipal in person? Is the V18 ipal even in the wild yet? So there seems to be a lot of conjecture, speculation and cheering for one's preferred brand. Uh okay, but maybe not the most helpful for the OP.

I, being a JTR owner, am not offend at all. I love my speakers and subs and someone's speculative options won't hurt my feelings, LOL. Dave has heard the 2400 and the TV36 ipal. I've heard the 2400, 4000 and TV36 ipal, with both of us stating that they both are great choices. PSA makes the most sense for Dave and JTR makes the most sense for me. Are either of us wrong or inferior, I think not.

Personal demos will still be the best way for him to form his own conclusions.
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post #66 of 144 Old 09-07-2019, 11:08 AM
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Originally Posted by 10dbdown View Post

This is exactly what I'm asking. You're saying the 2400 doesn't have the same >30 hz capability as the cap 2400?


The V1801 was able to produce 121db in the upper bass. That driver was 90db efficient. Take the same system and replace it with a IPAL driver, tune it via DSP, and now you have a sub has another 7db of efficiency with the same amount of power. So yes from 50hz on up I see the V1812Ipal being quite a bit stronger then a 2400. The point where they cross in output will likely be around 30hz and lower where the 2400 will start to pull ahead. So for music I would give the nod to the V1812I far as output capability, for deep movie oriented bass 2400. That being said I think they both have enough headroom to handle your intended volume levels. The only true way to know what is right for you is by demoing both and sending one back.
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post #67 of 144 Old 09-07-2019, 11:54 AM
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Threads like this are always a lot of fun. Someone comes looking for advice and it quickly turns into a company X vs company Y argument. I will take a slightly different approach with my response and hopefully keep it as unbiased as possible as a PSA TV36iPal owner and former V1811 owner.

The original poster was asking for a sub for music at high volumes. Any of the big boy subs (JTR, PSA, Rythmik, etc) subs are excellent products and the original poster would likely be happy with any of them. That being said, the high sensitivity pro audio drivers were designed for the sole purpose of reproducing bass for music. Starting with a subwoofer based on a pro audio driver makes the most sense to me. There have been many discussions about what makes pro audio drivers sound different (distortion, decay times, etc), but regardless of what graphs and measurements say, they DO sound different. Since getting the TV36-iPal, I find myself listening to music a lot more than I used to. The guys at GSG Audio seem to agree in their Bass Quality ratings (https://shop.gsgad.com/pages/perform...mparison-table)

Of the options being considered, I would recommend the PSA V18iPal. While no one has heard this version of the sub, the original's main weaknesses were mostly in the sub <20hz region which are of no interest to the original poster. The use of the iPal driver likely will have no effect below 20 hz, but the improvement in the quality and output of the mid-bass should be very noticeable. Factor in the generous 60 day trial period, standard Fed Ex shipping rather than freight, relatively compact manageable size, and trade-in program, this is where I would start. There is no substitute for an in-home demo and the V18 makes that painless with much less risk with return shipping costs if it isn't the right match. Additionally, the compact size of the V18 makes it much easier to place where it needs to be in the room than some of the larger subs.

The above is MY opinion and gives insight into how I selected PSA.
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post #68 of 144 Old 09-07-2019, 11:55 AM
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What I see is that the more powerful/efficient ipal driver will push more air through the same small v18xx enclosure and port area making it even more chuff throned than it was. It’s straight physics. Chuff is not equal musical.
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post #69 of 144 Old 09-07-2019, 12:23 PM
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+1^ to chucks0's post.

For "music" only choosing a top tear Pro driver of which its primary objective is music,,,, thats "it's" sweet spot would seem to be a good choice. Now as long as the cabinet design isn't taking away from its performance potential, to me would be the (subjective) right choice. Honestly i think the neo would be plenty for the OP purpose. Whether it's PSA's Neo/Ipal/Rythmik/JTR's 118, imo all those would have a sound quality edge for music over the thicker sound signature of the Cap 2400,,,,, but thats my subjective opinion, right or wrong.

Is that an insult to the Cap2400,,, no!! It will do very well with music. But a driver designed for ULF (it's sweet spot) may not have what a Pro Driver is designed for in (it's sweet spot). Just like the Pro driver will likely fall sort where the JTR driver shines. Once again (subjective).

As mentioned (if possible) demo them a make the decision that's right for you.
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post #70 of 144 Old 09-07-2019, 12:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
What I see is that the more powerful/efficient ipal driver will push more air through the same small v18xx enclosure and port area making it even more chuff throned than it was. It’s straight physics. Chuff is not equal musical.
Powerful and efficient does not automatically mean more air through the port. Driver efficiency has much more to do with mid-bass than it does low bass. Around port tune when the most air is moving through the port, the driver is moving very little. The whole chuff nonsense with the V1811 is WAY overblown, especially for someone using it for music only. I owned a pair of V1811 and never once had issues with chuffing at normal listening levels with normal content.
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post #71 of 144 Old 09-07-2019, 12:54 PM
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Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
What I see is that the more powerful/efficient ipal driver will push more air through the same small v18xx enclosure and port area making it even more chuff throned than it was. It’s straight physics. Chuff is not equal musical.
How would chuffing even remotely be an issue in a music application? Port tune is roughly around 17-19hz for the V18, IIRC. Straight physics, indeed.
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post #72 of 144 Old 09-07-2019, 01:03 PM
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For the OP just get a Rythmik FV25 and have the best of both worlds, deep extension with lots of output and plenty of mid-bass for music and servo control for low distortion and great sound. I think you're doing yourself a disservice not considering the FV25.
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post #73 of 144 Old 09-07-2019, 01:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Kini62 View Post
For the OP just get a Rythmik FV25 and have the best of both worlds, deep extension with lots of output and plenty of mid-bass for music and servo control for low distortion and great sound. I think you're doing yourself a disservice not considering the FV25.
The FV25 is in a different price bracket as well. Getting into that $2500 area opens up lots of additional options.
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post #74 of 144 Old 09-07-2019, 01:11 PM
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The FV25 is in a different price bracket as well. Getting into that $2500 area opens up lots of additional options.


and size bracket

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post #75 of 144 Old 09-07-2019, 01:14 PM
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The FV25 is in a different price bracket as well. Getting into that $2500 area opens up lots of additional options.
Same price bracket as the cap 2400.
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post #76 of 144 Old 09-07-2019, 01:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Kini62 View Post
Same price bracket as the cap 2400.
I may be mistaken, but I think the OP was looking at a used 2400.
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post #77 of 144 Old 09-07-2019, 01:19 PM
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Originally Posted by chucks0 View Post
Powerful and efficient does not automatically mean more air through the port. Driver efficiency has much more to do with mid-bass than it does low bass. Around port tune when the most air is moving through the port, the driver is moving very little. The whole chuff nonsense with the V1811 is WAY overblown, especially for someone using it for music only. I owned a pair of V1811 and never once had issues with chuffing at normal listening levels with normal content.


I had the V1801 as well and did not hear chuffing. That aside doesn’t the ipal have more excursion than the old eminence driver? Would driver excursion not lead to more air being pushed out of the port? Do we even know yet what the tuning of the V1812 will be? Too many unknowns at this point


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post #78 of 144 Old 09-07-2019, 01:21 PM
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I may be mistaken, but I think the OP was looking at a used 2400.
Oops, carry on then.
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post #79 of 144 Old 09-07-2019, 01:35 PM
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I truly don't understand the argument about a sub being better at Music versus Better for Movies? This has always confounded me. Don't most movies have Music in them and professionally composed Music? Heck I love Movie musical soundtracks! Some times they are better than the Movie itself...

I'm just going to toss out some FR data about Musical Instruments. Just for a general guide. Lets get on the same Frequency shall we?
(just joking here)

Male voice: A good bass can produce a strong D2 at 73.4Hz, but most energy lies two-four octaves above this, due to the resonant structure of the throat, mouth and nasal cavity.

Cello: C on the bottom string (C2) is 65.4Hz.

Double-bass: Most orchestral basses these days can reach low C3, 32.7Hz, but the jazz-bass limit is the low E3 at 41.2Hz.

Fender Bass: Limit is also 41.2Hz, but most of the energy is at the 2nd harmonic, 82.4Hz.

Bassoon: Like all reeds, very little energy at the fundamental, which reaches around 58Hz. Olsen measured the fundamental of a 98Hz bassoon tone as being 20dB lower in level than the 7th at 686Hz, which was the highest.

Contrabassoon: The depths plunged by this leviathan reach around 29Hz---a beautiful sound.

B-Flat Bass Clarinet: Low E (actually D2) is a beautifully plummy 73.4Hz. (The very rare contrabass clarinet plummets an octave lower to 36.7Hz.)

Organ: Commonly 25-32Hz; very occasionally 16.35Hz (but a reed stop with very little energy at this frequency).

Bass Trombone: With the slide all the way out, can produce a fart of a G-Flat4 around 23Hz.

Tuba: The fat man of the orchestra and wind band reaches F4, two tones below a standard concert grand.

Grand Piano: Standard concert grand goes down to A4 at 27.5Hz; the big Bosendorfers subtract ten or so Hz from this.

Kick Drum: Produces a broad span of frequencies with very high energy between 30 and 80Hz. (Live levels can reach 127dB, equivalent to 25 acoustic watts, or a typical box loudspeaker being driven by a 3kW amplifier!) Rock and jazz bass-drum output tends to have a higher frequency range than the orchestral bass drum.

Timpani: Energy tends to be centered in the upper-bass and lower-midrange, between 75Hz and 200Hz.

Here is a table of Frequency range data by Instrument. About 3/4 of a page down in this link: http://www.zytrax.com/tech/audio/audio.html

A Sub is just a specialized Speaker. Whether you are listening to Music or a Movie. It can either reproduce said frequency at a specific DB level or not. I am by no means an expert here and I am not saying any sub is better or worse than the other. But is not a note at 30Hz, and a sound at 30hz still basically the same? Be it a gunshot or a Grand Piano A note. Its all sound waves right.

Typical ranges:


Here is my thinking. One should look for a Sub that will compliment the Main Speakers it will be paired with. To fill in where the mains fail to dig down to.

ULF may be rare, and more prevalent in Movies and such. But it is present in musical instruments as well. There are some Massive Organs that can go down to a C−2 @ 4Hz Heck just look at the "Instruments" chart above and you can see many instruments go down to 20Hz and lower.

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post #80 of 144 Old 09-07-2019, 01:54 PM
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Originally Posted by imureh View Post
I had the V1801 as well and did not hear chuffing. That aside doesn’t the ipal have more excursion than the old eminence driver? Would driver excursion not lead to more air being pushed out of the port? Do we even know yet what the tuning of the V1812 will be? Too many unknowns at this point


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My understanding is that the V1812 uses the same cabinet as the V1811/1801, so port tune would be the same. The differences are the upgraded driver and reprogrammed DSP.

Again, in a music-only application, I don’t see this being an issue short of playing “Bass I Love You” at high levels.
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post #81 of 144 Old 09-07-2019, 03:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Many seem to think I should opt for Cap 118, Psa v18Ipal or Rythmik fv18 based on 30 hz and above but I do play some tunes with lower bass. My mains are capable from 50 hz on up but a sub just adds the extra heft to music no matter what genre. Weight is an issue. The rythmik is 165 pounds. The Cap 2400 is 135 pounds

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post #82 of 144 Old 09-07-2019, 03:24 PM
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Interesting, so if the V18 gets a driver with.. what, 7-8 dB more sensitivity swapped in, above the lower excursion-limited frequencies, the 2400 could be in some trouble
Nah... The V36 will be in trouble first before the Cap 2400... Heck, who needs V36's larger cabinet and double the amp power when 7dB higher driver sensitivity gets you 7dB more output?

Output up top is cheap.

The Cap 2400 is geared towards customers who demand single digit extension.
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post #83 of 144 Old 09-07-2019, 04:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Adamg (Ret-Navy) View Post
I truly don't understand the argument about a sub being better at Music versus Better for Movies? This has always confounded me. Don't most movies have Music in them and professionally composed Music? Heck I love Movie musical soundtracks! Some times they are better than the Movie itself...
Generally, movie focused subs put a priority on low frequency extension while music focused subs put a priority on >35 hz output. The laws of physics dictate that there are always trade-offs in the design. Although I'm not one of those guys that puts a lot of emphasis on data-bass numbers, it is rare to see a sub near the top of the rankings in the < 30 hz bass and near the top of the rankings in the > 40 hz rankings. Designing for one means sacrificing at least some of the output for the other.

If you compare JTRs home audio offerings with their pro audio offerings, all of the pro audio versions are tuned higher and have significantly more output above 40 hz than the equivalent home audio offering.

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post #84 of 144 Old 09-07-2019, 04:25 PM
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Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
Nah... The V36 will be in trouble first before the Cap 2400... Heck, who needs V36's larger cabinet and double the amp power when 7dB higher driver sensitivity gets you 7dB more output?
Obviously there was some sarcasm in this post, but you make a really good point. Driver sensitivity is not the same thing as system sensitivity. The same driver installed in different size enclosures with different port tunings will yield much different system sensitivities. Combine that with the decisions made when programming DSP, and things aren't always that simple.

The Captivators are incredible at ULF and it is easy to tell a large priority was placed on ULF (large cabinet, high excursion driver, lots of amp power, low port tune, etc). Of course something like the Orbit Shifter which pretty much ignores ULF by design will obliterate the Captivators from 40 hz and up. While the Captivators are really good with music, the Orbit Shifter is on another level with the vast majority of music.

As much as all of us like to think that we bought the "best" subwoofer, the reality is that the perfect subwoofer doesn't exist.

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post #85 of 144 Old 09-07-2019, 06:14 PM
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Originally Posted by imureh View Post
I had the V1801 as well and did not hear chuffing. That aside doesn’t the ipal have more excursion than the old eminence driver? Would driver excursion not lead to more air being pushed out of the port? Do we even know yet what the tuning of the V1812 will be? Too many unknowns at this point


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No actually its the opposite... high efficiency means more SPL with less effort(power/excursion) to achieve it.
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post #86 of 144 Old 09-07-2019, 06:16 PM
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I agree with a previous poster, the perfect sub is the one that will match your system and room best. If you want accuracy then you should want every frequency that is recorded. I don't want to miss anything even if it does not happen much. These are the goals I set for myself, nobody needs the same goals, but everything else is a compromise.

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post #87 of 144 Old 09-08-2019, 06:26 AM
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Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
What I see is that the more powerful/efficient ipal driver will push more air through the same small v18xx enclosure and port area making it even more chuff throned than it was. It’s straight physics. Chuff is not equal musical.
Explain how the possibility of chuffing when driven extremely hard around 18Hz will affect music on a V18 sub?
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post #88 of 144 Old 09-08-2019, 06:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
What I see is that the more powerful/efficient ipal driver will push more air through the same small v18xx enclosure and port area making it even more chuff throned than it was. It&#226;€&#x2122;&#xfe0f;s straight physics. Chuff is not equal musical.
Explain how the possibility of chuffing when driven extremely hard around 18Hz will affect music on a V18 sub? [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/confused.gif[/IMG][IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/confused.gif[/IMG][IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/confused.gif[/IMG]
Depends on the music, organ pipes all day! Just kidding.

We have to remember that when you get chuffing we need to add another sub, problem solved because turning it down is forbidden!

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post #89 of 144 Old 09-08-2019, 06:51 AM
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Also music like Bass I love you on a loop, Especially when testing. Been there done that.

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post #90 of 144 Old 09-08-2019, 07:59 AM
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post
Also music like Bass I love you on a loop, Especially when testing. Been there done that.
Does anyone actually listen to this music for anything other than a demo? Sure it's fun, but I'm not sure it is considered music.
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Electronics: Denon X4400, Vizio M65
Sub: PSA TV36-iPal
Speakers: 3 x Chane A2.4 LCR, Klipsch Quintet Surrounds
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