JTR Cap 2400 versus PSA V18ipal - Page 5 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #121 of 144 Old 09-09-2019, 06:55 AM
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From Eminence

XMAX/XLIM
Short for Maximum Linear Excursion. Speaker output becomes non-linear when the voice coil begins to leave the magnetic gap. Although suspensions can create non-linearity in output, the point at which the number of turns in the gap (see BL) begins to decrease is when distortion starts to increase. Eminence has historically been very conservative with this measurement and indicated only the voice coil overhang (Xmax: Voice coil height minus top plate thickness, divided by 2). The Xmax figures on this website are expressed as the greater of the result of the formula above or the excursion point of the woofer where THD reahes 10%. This method results in a more real world expression of the usable excursion limit for the transducer. Xlim is expressed by Eminence as the lowest of four potential failure condition measurements: spider crashing on top plate; Voice coil bottoming on back plate; Voice coil coming out of gap above core; or the physical limitation of cone. A transducer exceeding the Xlim is certain to fail from one of these conditions. High pass filters, limiters, and enclosure modeling software programs are valuable tools in protecting your woofers from mechanical failure.
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post #122 of 144 Old 09-09-2019, 07:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
It's clearly not that case here with the products from JTR, which I might add has 5 out of 6 current products tested by Data-bass, vs. 0 for brand X.

I see what you are trying to pull again.
In fairness, brand Y, Z, etc don't have their current products up there either. It is clear that JTR puts a high emphasis on the performance of their subwoofers and backs that up by having the products tested at data-bass. Two thoughts on this:

1. That doesn't mean that brands X, Y, and Z don't also put a high emphasis on the performance of their subs, just that they have chosen not to send their subs to data-bass for testing. Lack of participation doesn't mean they are attempting to hide anything, just that they don't see the same value in it as others.

2. One thing that the numbers and graphs don't reveal is how the subs actually sound. People who have heard both high excursion subwoofers and pro audio based subwoofers have described them as sounding different. High excursion subs are described as having a thicker sound while pro audio subs are designed as having a more refined sound similar to that of servo based subs. While many speculate as to why (lower distortion, faster decay times, etc), the important takeaway is that they DO sound different and everyone tends to prefer one sound over the other.

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post #123 of 144 Old 09-09-2019, 07:50 AM
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Properly setup blind tests show that subs sound more familiar than not and spl and extension is what separates them.
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post #124 of 144 Old 09-09-2019, 08:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post
BTW guys, I prefer the high excursion drivers sound over the pro drivers sound but I use pro drivers in my mains rather than subs, just crossover lower.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post
Properly setup blind tests show that subs sound more familiar than not and spl and extension is what separates them.
If they sound the same, why do you prefer the sound of one over the other?

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post #125 of 144 Old 09-09-2019, 08:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chucks0 View Post
In fairness, brand Y, Z, etc don't have their current products up their either. It is clear that JTR puts a high emphasis on the performance of their subwoofers and backs that up by having the products tested at data-bass.
Just check his original post and you will see why I responded that way:



As MKtheater pointed out, X-Max is the linear travel. CEA 2010 measures maximum output within an industry accepted level of distortion. Both are enough to prove him wrong. The CEA 2010 Max burst numbers provide enough objective evidence that the Cap 2400 is a great performer, even if subjective user experiences alone haven't already done so.

Quote:
One thing that the numbers and graphs don't reveal is how the subs actually sound. People who have heard both high excursion subwoofers and pro audio based subwoofers have described them as sounding different. High excursion subs are described as having a thicker sound while pro audio subs are designed as having a more refined sound similar to that of servo based subs. While many speculate as to why (lower distortion, faster decay times, etc), the important takeaway is that they DO sound different and everyone tends to prefer one sound over the other.
Oh yes. Even the thicker sound from V1801 I heard sounded very different from those from high excursion subwoofers (Cap 1400, and Cap 4000ULF) and pro audio based subwoofers (Cap 118HT). You should hear a JTR sub to know what I am talking about.


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post #126 of 144 Old 09-09-2019, 08:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chucks0 View Post
If they sound the same, why do you prefer the sound of one over the other?
extension.

I prefer the response of the higher excursion subs in room which give me a natural rising house curve. I have tried so many setups in the blind and it always came down to extension and spl in my room.

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post #127 of 144 Old 09-09-2019, 09:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
Oh yes. Even the thicker sound from V1801 I heard sounded very different from those from high excursion subwoofers (Cap 1400, and Cap 4000ULF) and pro audio based subwoofers (Cap 118HT). You should hear a JTR sub to know what I am talking about.
Although I haven't heard all of them in my room, I have heard JTR, Rythmik, PSA, and several DIY subwoofers. I thought the JTR sounded awesome and the 25 year old version of myself probably would have went that direction. The first pro audio driver based sub I heard was the lowly VBSS and while it lacked the extension of the big boys, there was just something about the sound signature that I loved, especially with music. The PSA TV36 has that same clean sound I loved about the VBSS with much greater extension. My use of the word clean shouldn't be interpreted as low distortion as all of the high end subs have very low distortion; clean is just the word that comes to mind although I might also describe it as refined.

While I am pretty confident that the TV36 would lose a drag race on data-bass against the Cap 4000 or maybe even the Cap 2400 at certain frequencies, I don't care. It has all of the headroom that I need and the sound signature that I love in my room for my tastes. It doesn't offend me in the least that others prefer the JTR or Rythmic or even DIY subs. In fact, I have really enjoyed listening to pretty much all of the big boy subs I have had the opportunity to hear. I really would like to cross Funk off of that list.

To the original poster, there isn't a wrong answer to your original question. Preferences only become relevant when you have actually had the opportunity to hear the competing subs. Not all of us have had the opportunity to test them in our room like @imureh , and he picked neither of the above.

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post #128 of 144 Old 09-09-2019, 09:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
Just check his original post and you will see why I responded that way:
If you're going to backbite my posts, please have the courtesy to actually quote them so I get a notification. The image quote thing just seems like a sneaky way to ensure I'm not here to defend my opinion - something I shouldn't have to do in the first place. I get that you like JTR, I really do, and I agree they make fine subwoofers - but they aren't the be-all end-all, especially to those of us who value SQ over SPL.

Xmax is a physical spec that tells you nothing about the suspension of the sub. Yes or no?

edit: BTW, posting data bass results for an $850ish sub against a $2700 sub? What is that even supposed to prove? I guess it just proves what we already knew: you aren't being objective in your support of JTR.

edit again!: BTW, I did catch your sideways accusation that PSA inflates amp ratings where you said '700w' for V1811 - not the case, see https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...l#post56291666 - just more proof you have an axe to grind.
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post #129 of 144 Old 09-09-2019, 09:48 AM
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I'm surprised some companies don't request various members to stop posting as they do more harm (than good) as they often are dismissed which leads to the company being dismissed as well... especially since they post so often it's hard to separate the two.
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post #130 of 144 Old 09-09-2019, 10:11 AM
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People can post what they want as they are not affiliated with them, just customers. I just like data and to learn informatiom. I am a DIYER and don't own either.
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post #131 of 144 Old 09-09-2019, 10:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Charles R View Post
I'm surprised some companies don't request various members to stop posting as they do more harm (than good) as they often are dismissed which leads to the company being dismissed as well... especially since they post so often it's hard to separate the two.
Hah, you might as well go to a football stadium and ask people to stop cheering. Won't happen!
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post #132 of 144 Old 09-09-2019, 10:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post
Typically x-max is the travel before distortion gets out of hand so if a driver can barely reach it then it is not x-max. I am using simple terms, anyone can list the definition.

Chucky, I know it cost more, just curious about how a (larger) driver with less excursion can have more low end both in cea burst and max output. Now, if one is not using the sp1-6000 then you will not get those numbers.

I had 8 Ficar audio IB3-18s in my rom at one time, and 8 pro audio woofers(not in the same class as the Ipal, need more) and those pro drivers have the exact response, just less of it. I do prefer the higher xmax sound as my room handles low end quite well.
Hi allow me to edit the addition in red. I am of course not an expert, but why shouldn't it? Larger area and more powerful amp equalize the disadvantage in lesser Xmax of the 21 driver, no? To produce say a signal of 15 Hz at 100 dB, the larger 21 driver will move (piston motion) less than the 18, hence getting away with its lower Xmax.

Chucky has pointed out the cost of doing so (21 costing substantial more); I would also add that IMHO the subjective sound of a 21 driver will be different, regardless of measurement.

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post #133 of 144 Old 09-09-2019, 10:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
I believe below is what Jeff did:

2. Compare the the natural response of Cap 2400 (in its cabinet and 2400W amp) and the V1812 with the 18IPAL driver (in its cabinet, maybe smaller and 700w amp) because this is what the OP was asking:


Am I reading this right that the difference at 10 Hz is 15 dB? This would mean there is no comparison at all.

Not a fair comparison of course, 2400 has larger amp and driver with more excursion (if I'm not mistaken 20mm versus 33 mm of JTR). It's in a different class from the V1812, Ipal or not.

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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post
People can post what they want as they are not affiliated with them, just customers.
Unfortunately, there are lots of loyal fans that blindly post stuffs making them seem to be affiliated with that company. It is okay to be a brand fan, just don't become a brand soldier. Really folks, there is no need to. You just can't say sub x is better than sub y nor sub x has better SQ when sub x is not even available or when you have not heard either sub yourself
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post #135 of 144 Old 09-09-2019, 10:32 AM
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Originally Posted by cannga View Post
Am I reading this right that the difference at 10 Hz is 15 dB? This would mean there is no comparison at all.

Not a fair comparison of course, 2400 has larger amp and driver with more excursion. It's in a different class from the V1812, Ipal or not.
If you have the extra $900 and are using it for a home theater, certainly go with the 2400. For music, I'd still take the V1812 and put the savings towards duals or a nice night out

Now, if you wanna compare beyond 'music only' we can line up TV36neo or ipal against the 2400, since the cost is very close. That would be a fun competition.
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post #136 of 144 Old 09-09-2019, 10:40 AM
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As proven by much smarter people than me in audio what we hear mostly from the bass frequencies is the amplitude of the response.
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post #137 of 144 Old 09-09-2019, 10:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post
People can post what they want as they are not affiliated with them, just customers.
Sure they can... the point being having started and running a company for close to four decades I'd politely ask a few members to stop "helping me" I know I have dismissed several companies that are/were being promoted by individuals. Tarnished by association. I have heard such from several I have referred to the forum as well...

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post #138 of 144 Old 09-09-2019, 10:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cannga View Post
Hi allow me to edit the addition in red. I am of course not an expert, but why shouldn't it? Larger area and more powerful amp equalize the disadvantage in lesser Xmax of the 21 driver, no? To produce say a signal of 15 Hz at 100 dB, the larger 21 driver will move (piston motion) less than the 18, hence getting away with its lower Xmax.

Chucky has pointed out the cost of doing so (21 costing substantial more); I would also add that IMHO the subjective sound of a 21 driver will be different, regardless of measurement.
Yeah, I already mentioned the difference in SD but how can that make up that much difference? Usually a 21 would be 3 dB more than an equal 18 because of size but we have said it has less excursion so it needs more than SD.

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post #139 of 144 Old 09-09-2019, 11:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Charles R View Post
Sure they can... the point being having started and running a company for close to four decades I'd politely ask a few members to stop "helping me" I know I have dismissed several companies that are/were being promoted by individuals. Tarnished by association. I have heard such from several I have referred to the forum as well...
To me it is just people liking what they have, I know it can get a little out of control but it happens in every vs thread, have to expect it and hopefully deal with it with facts. Preferences are impossible to predict especially everybody has different rooms and setup differently.

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post #140 of 144 Old 09-09-2019, 02:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles R View Post
Sure they can... the point being having started and running a company for close to four decades I'd politely ask a few members to stop "helping me" I know I have dismissed several companies that are/were being promoted by individuals. Tarnished by association. I have heard such from several I have referred to the forum as well...
Really? Why exactly would you do that? I'm truly curious. Do you own an Apple iphone? Perhaps a Samsung? Or pick whatever awesome product you want or even love and currently own, I guarantee they will have fanatical fans that "tarnish" the brand and don't see things the way you do. I'm sure said companies, would prefer some of them to be nameless and kindly not help them.

I get your point though, I really do but as a consumer, I'm going to try and buy the best product to fit my needs regardless of other's opinions. Even when I might disagree with their opinion when we own the same product.

Sometimes the customer is not right.

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post #141 of 144 Old 09-09-2019, 05:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chucks0 View Post
2. One thing that the numbers and graphs don't reveal is how the subs actually sound. People who have heard both high excursion subwoofers and pro audio based subwoofers have described them as sounding different. High excursion subs are described as having a thicker sound while pro audio subs are designed as having a more refined sound similar to that of servo based subs. While many speculate as to why (lower distortion, faster decay times, etc), the important takeaway is that they DO sound different and everyone tends to prefer one sound over the other.
Large excursion drivers tend to have higher inductance and lower transient response. as @mthomas47 said they come off as a more blended sound than a PA driver because of it.

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post #142 of 144 Old 09-09-2019, 05:49 PM
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Really? Why exactly would you do that? I'm truly curious.
Being rather off topic I was going to let it drop however I will answer your question. I feel there is a big difference between large companies and the (much) smaller companies usually represented here. And I will say I'll typically purchase something from the devil if I feel it's my best option. Although rightfully or wrongfully I tend to feel companies (largely by default) become associated with their "gang" of posters. Such that they endorse the posters (talking about the endless ones) which leads one to believe they reflect the company's outlook. Largely because of the contained environment.

As an example I purchased my first subwoofer (from this forum) largely based on the "personality" of its posters. I also dismissed one or more companies based on their posters. I felt I knew the mantra of the company and rewarded them accordingly. Later I purchased a second and again was influenced by the "atmosphere" along with the subwoofer itself. Bottom line the performance of the various subwoofers are more similar than different and if I can reward (in this case a small business owner) someone I tend to relate to I will...
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post #143 of 144 Old 09-09-2019, 06:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles R View Post
Being rather off topic I was going to let it drop however I will answer your question. I feel there is a big difference between large companies and the (much) smaller companies usually represented here. And I will say I'll typically purchase something from the devil if I feel it's my best option. Although rightfully or wrongfully I tend to feel companies (largely by default) become associated with their "gang" of posters. Such that they endorse the posters (talking about the endless ones) which leads one to believe they reflect the company's outlook. Largely because of the contained environment.

As an example I purchased my first subwoofer (from this forum) largely based on the "personality" of its posters. I also dismissed one or more companies based on their posters. I felt I knew the mantra of the company and rewarded them accordingly. Later I purchased a second and again was influenced by the "atmosphere" along with the subwoofer itself. Bottom line the performance of the various subwoofers are more similar than different and if I can reward (in this case a small business owner) someone I tend to relate to I will...
I admit I gravitate to this mindset myself sometimes... understand giving in to it is a liability, based on emotion more than anything else.

I mean, unless you really think they're shill posters, not just brand honks who are overly excited about their own choices. The latter should have zero effect on our decisions, the former i can understand if you think it can be traced back to the company.

Internet atmosphere, does not fill your space with the pressure of bass.


Edit- you're more into the small vs. large co. angle to this, I can appreciate that. I was getting the sense fans of a brand, who do not represent the brand, were affecting you.

Last edited by Leon!; 09-09-2019 at 06:29 PM.
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post #144 of 144 Old 09-09-2019, 07:46 PM
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The latter should have zero effect on our decisions, the former i can understand if you think it can be traced back to the company.
One thing absolutely everyone here will agree on, neither Jeff nor Tom would stoop to such tactics.
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