JTR Cap 2400 versus PSA V18ipal - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 144 Old 09-06-2019, 01:47 PM - Thread Starter
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JTR Cap 2400 versus PSA V18ipal

I have an opportunity to get a Cap 2400 not the ulf model for about the same as a new psa v18ipal. My current use of the sub I have is in a open concept room for 2.1 music. Not chasing low ulf just hefty 20-70 hz.
So what do the experts say?

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post #2 of 144 Old 09-06-2019, 02:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 10dbdown View Post
I have an opportunity to get a Cap 2400 not the ulf model for about the same as a new psa v18ipal. My current use of the sub I have is in a open concept room for 2.1 music. Not chasing low ulf just hefty 20-70 hz.
So what do the experts say?
Music? 1000% the PSA.
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post #3 of 144 Old 09-06-2019, 02:06 PM
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JTR Cap 2400 versus PSA V18ipal

Quote:
Originally Posted by 10dbdown View Post
I have an opportunity to get a Cap 2400 not the ulf model for about the same as a new psa v18ipal. My current use of the sub I have is in a open concept room for 2.1 music. Not chasing low ulf just hefty 20-70 hz.

So what do the experts say?


For music you should consider the ipals and rythmik subs which are quite a bit cheaper too than these two.


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post #4 of 144 Old 09-06-2019, 02:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ratbuddy View Post
Music? 1000% the PSA.
Why is that?

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post #5 of 144 Old 09-06-2019, 02:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by imureh View Post
For music you should consider the ipals and rythmik subs which are quite a bit cheaper too than these two.


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Why is the Ipal driver better than the Jtr driver? Are you saying I can push the Ipal driver further without distortion? Yes, I listen loud but bass is set at 0 on pre-pro with current sub.

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post #6 of 144 Old 09-06-2019, 02:22 PM
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The 2400 is designed more for home theater with potent ulf and tactile feel thats its sweet spot. yes it will still do music, but wont even be close to the Pro IPal driver capabilities for music which will have much lower distortion numbers in the mid bass where you need it for music and higher sensitivity means more mid bass slam imo.

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post #7 of 144 Old 09-06-2019, 02:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 10dbdown View Post
Why is the Ipal driver better than the Jtr driver? Are you saying I can push the Ipal driver further without distortion? Yes, I listen loud but bass is set at 0 on pre-pro with current sub.
The JTR subs are made to go low and loud, which is great for movies, but they have more distortion and a 'fuzzier' sound than PSA subs. That goes double for the ipal subs. The ipals have amazingly low distortion and just integrate so well with mains, it really has to be heard to be believed. For music, you don't need to go very low, and the V1811 is awesome from about 18 Hz on up. If you wanted lower extension I'd say get the JTR or a sealer/lower tuned sub from another maker, but for music? No contest.
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post #8 of 144 Old 09-06-2019, 02:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 10dbdown View Post
Why is the Ipal driver better than the Jtr driver? Are you saying I can push the Ipal driver further without distortion? Yes, I listen loud but bass is set at 0 on pre-pro with current sub.
As IDBF says, the ipal are more sensitive and provide more mid bass slam which is needed for music. The Rythmik are very low distortion due to servo and excel at music and therefore used by several mixing studios.
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post #9 of 144 Old 09-06-2019, 02:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 10dbdown View Post
I have an opportunity to get a Cap 2400 not the ulf model for about the same as a new psa v18ipal. My current use of the sub I have is in a open concept room for 2.1 music. Not chasing low ulf just hefty 20-70 hz.
So what do the experts say?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ratbuddy View Post
Music? 1000% the PSA.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 10dbdown View Post
Why is that?

Because the iPal V1812 will have more SPL from 30Hz and up than the Cap 2400 will, which is where you want the extra SPL for music, and because the iPal driver will produce a clearer sound signature, which will also be helpful for music. No single subwoofer (at virtually any price point) is best at everything. Sticking just with ported subs for a moment, some will produce more <20Hz SPL and more powerful low-bass tactile sensations, while others will concentrate more SPL above 25 or 30Hz. Some will have a more robust sound signature that can be especially desirable to some people for movies, and some subwoofers will have a clearer, more precise sound that some people appreciate more for music.

A lot of the challenge in buying a subwoofer lies in identifying your own goals and preferences. Once you do that, it becomes easier to match those goals and preferences with a subwoofer. Odds are that either subwoofer you have mentioned would work very well for any application. They are both fine subwoofers! But, based on your specific goal of 100% music, with strong >20Hz capabilities, the V1812 iPal is the more natural fit.

Regards,
Mike

GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #10 of 144 Old 09-06-2019, 02:40 PM - Thread Starter
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This going to be my last sub lol. Seriously, I don't want to have any regrets. The Psa neo option is cheaper but the Ipal has more excursion and can be pushed harder if asked. Some people on the Psa thread don't seem to need the Ipal's capability but I think I do because I'm 2.1.

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post #11 of 144 Old 09-06-2019, 02:46 PM
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Originally Posted by ratbuddy View Post
The JTR subs are made to go low and loud, which is great for movies, but they have more distortion and a 'fuzzier' sound than PSA subs. That goes double for the ipal subs. The ipals have amazingly low distortion and just integrate so well with mains, it really has to be heard to be believed. For music, you don't need to go very low, and the V1811 is awesome from about 18 Hz on up. If you wanted lower extension I'd say get the JTR or a sealer/lower tuned sub from another maker, but for music? No contest.
I would be very interested with @muscles gets ipals and compares them to the Rythmiks. I am not sure I would be making a statement about ipal being the best for music considering that Rythmiks are well known for music. There are other elements in the sub that will inform the final sound besides just the driver. I am not just saying cause I own Rythmiks, I owned psa as well but not the ipal version of course

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Originally Posted by 10dbdown View Post
This going to be my last sub lol. Seriously, I don't want to have any regrets. The Psa neo option is cheaper but the Ipal has more excursion and can be pushed harder if asked. Some people on the Psa thread don't seem to need the Ipal's capability but I think I do because I'm 2.1.
Last sub? No regrets? Preorder pricing should still be valid on a TV36ipal :P
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post #13 of 144 Old 09-06-2019, 02:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ratbuddy View Post
Last sub? No regrets? Preorder pricing should still be valid on a TV36ipal :P
It's out of my price range. Nobody has heard the v18ipal as yet so there are no comparisons other than the specs of the driver which are in a smaller cab than the jtr 2400. Hoffmans iron law.

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post #14 of 144 Old 09-06-2019, 02:55 PM
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It's out of my price range. Nobody has heard the v18ipal as yet so there are no comparisons other than the specs of the driver which are in a smaller cab than the jtr 2400. Hoffmans iron law.
In the ULF territory the 2400 would be hard to beat. As Mike said it depends on your priorities and what sub meets that no one sub will give you every single thing.

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Originally Posted by imureh View Post
I would be very interested with @muscles gets ipals and compares them to the Rythmiks. I am not sure I would be making a statement about ipal being the best for music considering that Rythmiks are well known for music. There are other elements in the sub that will inform the final sound besides just the driver. I am not just saying cause I own Rythmiks, I owned psa as well but not the ipal version of course
I had V1811s before my TV36ipals, and hoo boy, the difference in quality is night and day. I know Rythmik makes a fine sub, but the ipals are easily as musical. The ipal distortion numbers are amazing, and honestly, servo tech isn't really needed with modern drivers.

Quote:
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It's out of my price range. Nobody has heard the v18ipal as yet so there are no comparisons other than the specs of the driver which are in a smaller cab than the jtr 2400. Hoffmans iron law.
Like I mentioned above, I did own V1811s and now own ipal PSA subs, so that's probably as close to having 'heard' the V18ipal as you're going to get right now :P Hoffman is a given, and again, if you were doing theater/movie use, you would get more varied answers.
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post #16 of 144 Old 09-06-2019, 03:07 PM
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I had V1811s before my TV36ipals, and hoo boy, the difference in quality is night and day. I know Rythmik makes a fine sub, but the ipals are easily as musical. The ipal distortion numbers are amazing, and honestly, servo tech isn't really needed with modern drivers.







Like I mentioned above, I did own V1811s and now own ipal PSA subs, so that's probably as close to having 'heard' the V18ipal as you're going to get right now :P Hoffman is a given, and again, if you were doing theater/movie use, you would get more varied answers.


I am just saying that ipals have been around for a while and not something new. The rythmiks are used by several mixing studios for a reason.


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In the ULF territory the 2400 would be hard to beat. As Mike said it depends on your priorities and what sub meets that no one sub will give you every single thing.
Why can't you have both? A good sub should do 18hz or below and still have good over 40 hz for the $1700 plus price. We're not talking lower priced subs anymore it's not chump change for me and other people can afford more. Appreciate the info.

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I am just saying that ipals have been around for a while and not something new. The rythmiks are used by several mixing studios for a reason.
Is the reason because they can't afford Bag End?



I kid, I kid :P Like I said, Rythmik makes a fine product.
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post #19 of 144 Old 09-06-2019, 03:13 PM
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Why can't you have both? A good sub should do 18hz or below and still have good over 40 hz for the $1700 plus price. We're not talking lower priced subs anymore it's not chump change for me and other people can afford more. Appreciate the info.
Every subwoofer on the market is the result of a set of tradeoffs. Every single one. You already mentioned Hoffman, so I assume you know at least something about the process a sub designer has to go through. You want a sub that's good at *everything*? You're going to pay more than $1700, because the tradeoff for that subwoofer will be price.
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post #20 of 144 Old 09-06-2019, 03:15 PM
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Originally Posted by 10dbdown View Post
Why can't you have both? A good sub should do 18hz or below and still have good over 40 hz for the $1700 plus price. We're not talking lower priced subs anymore it's not chump change for me and other people can afford more. Appreciate the info.


The JTR will do that but comparing to the ipal the mid bass will not be as strong. It’s a design goal of that sub. One reason I did decide to go with the FV18 as it gave me a good mix of ULF, mid bass, TR and low distortion. But when you compare to JTR the TR won’t be as strong and may be mid bass not as strong as the ipal etc.


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post #21 of 144 Old 09-06-2019, 03:19 PM - Thread Starter
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The JTR will do that but comparing to the ipal the mid bass will not be as strong. It’s a design goal of that sub. One reason I did decide to go with the FV18 as it gave me a good mix of ULF, mid bass, TR and low distortion. But when you compare to JTR the TR won’t be as strong and may be mid bass not as strong as the ipal etc.


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Really good to know as many have gone down this similar path and I'm sure it will come again. Been on avs for several years and have learned alot about subs Not a big poster cause didn't have any reason but I do now.
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post #22 of 144 Old 09-06-2019, 03:23 PM
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Really good to know as many have gone down this similar path and I'm sure it will come again. Been on avs for several years and have learned alot about subs Not a big poster cause didn't have any reason but I do now.


As they say there is no free lunch and no one perfect sub. You just have to see what aspects are most important to you including budget and CS etc and go from there. That is what I compared several different subs in my room to know what I really liked. It cost me effort and some money but I have no regrets now.


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Where's @Dave Ol ? He has the TV36 and had the 2400. He's probably the best person to describe the sound signature of both. Even though it's not the 18ipal.

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Originally Posted by ratbuddy View Post
Every subwoofer on the market is the result of a set of tradeoffs. Every single one. You already mentioned Hoffman, so I assume you know at least something about the process a sub designer has to go through. You want a sub that's good at *everything*? You're going to pay more than $1700, because the tradeoff for that subwoofer will be price.

I'm one of the few (if not the only one) who had a JTR2400 (not ULF) and switched to the TV36 ipal. The reason I switched to the TV36 was because I thought I might be missing some mid bass with the 2400 as it is tuned very low (10 Hz) and mid bass is not its forte. However, I didn't want to lose any of the low bass extension the 2400 delivers either. Being able to deliver both clean low bass extension and mid range punch is something I believe the TV36 ipal excels at. Unfortunately, to get both you are going to have to pay a higher price.

However, since you are only looking for a sub for music the V18 ipal should be right up your alley. It is my opinion that the TV36 ipal has a more detailed, better mid bass slam than the 2400 and has a much cleaner sound to it. Granted, not the same comparison as going to a V18 ipal, but the sound signature should be similar and your mid bass music desires should be satisfied with it.

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Where's @Dave Ol ? He has the TV36 and had the 2400. He's probably the best person to describe the sound signature of both. Even though it's not the 18ipal.

Todd

Oops, must have been typing my response when you posted this.
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post #26 of 144 Old 09-06-2019, 06:45 PM
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@10dbdown , while I don't disagree with the recommendation that the V18ipal might be a better fit for your stated priorities, I am going to give an alternative view for the 2400 concerning distortion and music.

This is directly taken from Databass concerning distortion for the 2400:

Distortion Testing Results
The distortion results for the Cap 2400 are commendable. During the 100dB nominal sweep the THD is below 7.5% over the entire bass bandwidth. The 105dB nominal sweep is also good with THD maxing out at 11% at 15Hz and otherwise remaining well below 10%. The 110dB sweep causes an increase in THD below 20Hz where driver excursion is highest. THD reaches 22% at 15Hz but remains below 10% above 22Hz. The 115dB sweep again increases distortion below 25Hz with driver excursion getting quite large. THD remains at or below 11% above 24Hz though. The final 120dB sweep pushes the sub deep into the limiter but doesn't increase the distortion much as the sub was close to max output during the 115dB sweep. THD reaches 50% at 10Hz which tapers off to 20% by 20Hz. Distortion above 24Hz remains below 15%. the harmonic makeup of the distortion is primarily the 3rd harmonic below 24Hz and a mixture of the 2nd and 3rd above that point.


And, unless I am completely wrong, these measurements are taken outside so the distortion levels will be much lower in-room.

The implication that the 2400 is just designed to go low and loud is a bit simplified IMO. It handles music very well but it does have a more robust sound signature as Mike has alluded to. Maybe you like that, maybe you don't. Only you would know by actually listening to both at the same time in the same room set up in the same way. The V18ipal may have more SPL in the mid-bass but no doubt will have a different sound signature.

Just giving you a different perspective.

Todd

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post #27 of 144 Old 09-06-2019, 07:25 PM
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Comparing a single driver that is geared for ULF and dual drivers that is pro midbass driver is not apples to apples comparison. Better comparison is JTR 118 vs single ipal such as v1800 with ipal driver IMO. But cap 4000 will have more low bass than tv36ipal due to the nature of the drivers itself. Now I can't say with 100% certainty since psa doesn't send their subs to databass for testing but home theater driver usually does low end better than pro audio driver while the latter have more midbass output.

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post #28 of 144 Old 09-06-2019, 08:23 PM
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The Captivator 2400's driver is very efficient. Looking at Data-Bass, the dual Ipal 21 with the 6000w amplifier only had a 2.0-2.4db advantage in the 25-40hz range (well above where the port is contributing) over the Captivator 2400 with it's single 18 and 2400w amplifier. The dual Ipal 21 with 6000 watts had a 5.4db advantage at 50hz and a 9.1db advantage at 63hz. However, you'd have to substract 7db from the dual Ipal 21 with 6000 watts (single Ipal 21 with 2400w) for an even comparison giving the Captivator 2400 an advantage 50hz and below, with a single Ipal 21 and 2400w amp having a 2.1db advantage at 63hz. The Ipal 18 is rated 2db less efficient than the Ipal 21 and then substract another 4db for the 1000w amp vs 2400 amp. Then take into account that the ICE modules are rated for a minimum of 2.5 ohms and the Ipal 18 is a normalized 2 ohm with 1.3 ohm RE.
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Last edited by Jeff Permanian; 09-06-2019 at 08:29 PM.
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post #29 of 144 Old 09-06-2019, 09:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave Ol View Post
I'm one of the few (if not the only one) who had a JTR2400 (not ULF) and switched to the TV36 ipal. The reason I switched to the TV36 was because I thought I might be missing some mid bass with the 2400 as it is tuned very low (10 Hz) and mid bass is not its forte. However, I didn't want to lose any of the low bass extension the 2400 delivers either. Being able to deliver both clean low bass extension and mid range punch is something I believe the TV36 ipal excels at. Unfortunately, to get both you are going to have to pay a higher price.

However, since you are only looking for a sub for music the V18 ipal should be right up your alley. It is my opinion that the TV36 ipal has a more detailed, better mid bass slam than the 2400 and has a much cleaner sound to it. Granted, not the same comparison as going to a V18 ipal, but the sound signature should be similar and your mid bass music desires should be satisfied with it.
Just to be clear, I think the 2400 is an awesome sub. I don't believe I have said a bad word about it in any of my posts. Had the TV36 not come along I never would have changed. I simply prefer the sound signature of the TV36 ipal in my room with my equipment. I also agree that the dual driver TV36 vs. the single driver in the 2400 may not be a fair comparison.

That being said, the OP wanted opinions for a sub on a 100% music system. Again, the 2400 is an awesome sub. But for purely music, I don't think you need to go down to 10 Hz and a different sub designed for more mid bass might be a better fit. A V18 ipal may be better suited for the OP's needs, or even a JTR118 or Rythmik. But we all hear things differently, and each room is different. It will always come down to personal preference.
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post #30 of 144 Old 09-06-2019, 09:45 PM
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So many factors here, such as the room, how hard you push your listening levels, the type of music that you enjoy and which speakers/processor/amps/sources you match them with. Chasing the “best” can be a never-ending and expensive endeavor. It’s a fun hobby and remember to enjoy it.

I’ve owned three of the 2400s (one was @Dave Ol ’s). They sound great for music. I listen to 70/30 music over HT. They do both well. I recently replaced three 2400s with two JTR 4000s. I didn’t find the benefit that I was hoping for in going from two to three, so opted for two (only) of the biggest subs that I could manage. They sound outstanding for music and I cannot hear any distortion (boomy or muddy) at all. I listen to them about twelve hours each day that I am home (often). Even right now as I write this.

@toddct makes some great points here. Most music doesn’t even extend down to the lower frequencies where distortion exist. Movies don’t that much either, unless you BEQ (I personally don’t, yet). Hopefully PSA will send their subs to Data-Bass for some independent and objective testing to see some apples to apples comparisons. BTW, I believe PSA may have a real winner with the TV42 ipal. Also I don’t typically listen to my music at 120db, but I could if I wanted my ears to bleed and house to break (not kidding). No thanks.

@ereed also makes stellar points. Dave previously pointed the same out when he and I compared his 2400 and TV36. It would be completely unfair (Dave never represented any unfairness) to compare a single driver (2400) to a dual driver (TV36) subs. Also, those two subs are designed for different objectives. In the unscientific comparison that we did that day, the subs were located in separate locations and his processor was calibrated (I believe, didn’t ask) for the TV36. In his arrangement (and regardless), the single TV36 outperformed the single 2400 as one would expect. The truest of comparisons would be equal db leveling without room correction at the identical location with the same selection of several different types of music and movies. And single-drive sub to single-driver sub.

I am not saying that the PSA subs are inferior, they are awesome too! I really liked Dave’s TV36 ipal. It has great sonics. With his situation, it was the best choice for what he was looking to accomplish. Every room have limitations. I also have noticed significant improved sonic improvements going from 2400s (single drivers) to 4000s (dual drivers). I cannot really explain why, other than I really like the improved sonics.I am also a student in this hobby and always am willing to learn and improve. I’ll give an open invitation to anyone in N Cal to stop by and bring their subs so that we can compare them. Although I have JTR speakers and subs, I am objective and not attempting any purchase justification.

I would suggest making the best decision for your situation. Only you can properly determine this. Try to demo/listen to both subs if you can. I personally think that you will be very happy with either.
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Last edited by BassMojo; 09-06-2019 at 09:57 PM.
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