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post #1 of 34 Old 09-22-2019, 07:34 AM - Thread Starter
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Thoughts on adding a 2nd PB 1000 in an apartment?

Hey guys,


Looking for some advice. My wife said yes to adding a 2nd PB 1000 which is a miracle - i did take her out for dinner and got her drunk mind you (she said no a week ago lol.



-Here's a picture of what's going on (will be finally hiding these wires in a few weeks). My wife said i could put the 2nd sub directly on the left (replace that cat bed ). We also compromised she could put a small blanket on the sub (won't cover the front or anything), and maybe put some fake flowers or decorate it. I assume if she puts stuff on it, it won't effect the sound?


Now the issue: I thought i could buy it from Amazon.ca or one of the resellers, but they would all charge me to return it if it didn't work out. I can only imagine the shipping fee to get it back...and the re-sellers charge 10-20% restocking fee.


I've read quite a bit about adding a 2nd sub and the benefits, but i thought i would be able to test it. I've read quite a few things where people say its not a huge benefit...of course i've read a lot more saying it is a huge benefit. Our room is pretty, and we have 16 feet behind us to the back wall.



This is where im asking for help and advice. I do live in an apartment and haven't had a complaint yet with the single one (had it for 3-4 years)...i don't want to be a dick to neighbors.
I did just order the SVS elevation isolation system for my current one - i had no idea they existed until googling a 2nd sub this weekend. No complaints, but i would be crazy not to add the sound absorbing feet.


-I really enjoy the sound of my sub - it happens that corner its currently in was the winner with a sub crawl. It wasn't great on the left side of the TV where the new one would go.


Again since it will cost me a lot to return it here in Canada i need some solid advice on what to do - any help, tips, suggestions would be welcomed.



Side note - i emailed Ed at SVS about adding a 2nd sub and the support has been overwhelming. He sent me best practices for my crossovers and how to set it up - SVS really goes out of their way for customers.


Sony 65 A1E/Marantz 7013
PSB Imagine X2T Towers / PSB C Centre
PSB Image B6 Surrounds
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post #2 of 34 Old 09-22-2019, 08:32 AM
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First of all,,,, nice tactic on swaying the wife's mind. Two subs for me was night and day better and in most cases it should have that result. IMO placing the second sub where the cat bed is (if that's the "only" position the wife will allow) may help a bit evening out any possible nulls however if the whole room opens up left of that position i believe it will limit the gain potential of a second sub. I think you realize this too,,, with the sub-crawl you did.

Have you not checked out www.electronicsforless.ca ?? they have the bill of rights listed on their website as they are a Canadian authorized dealer for SVS so you can audition for 45 days?

Anyway as for pissing off the neighbors a second sub can add up to 6DB's more output so that potential is always there in an apartment.
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post #3 of 34 Old 09-22-2019, 09:49 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by indebtbassfreak View Post
First of all,,,, nice tactic on swaying the wife's mind. Two subs for me was night and day better and in most cases it should have that result. IMO placing the second sub where the cat bed is (if that's the "only" position the wife will allow) may help a bit evening out any possible nulls however if the whole room opens up left of that position i believe it will limit the gain potential of a second sub. I think you realize this too,,, with the sub-crawl you did.

Have you not checked out www.electronicsforless.ca ?? they have the bill of rights listed on their website as they are a Canadian authorized dealer for SVS so you can audition for 45 days?

Anyway as for pissing off the neighbors a second sub can add up to 6DB's more output so that potential is always there in an apartment.

Interesting and thanks for the input. Yes the room opens up to the left..a lot. We have our entrance/hallway and a pretty big kitchen all to the left. I didn't know having an open area could effect it. That really is amazing advice, and it sounds like i shouldn't add a 2nd sub - wife will happy.



I actually just used Electronicsforless to buy my SVS elevation speakers this week and that's where i bought my PB 1000 a few years ago. I looked on their site and they won't cover shipping back, and they have a restocking fee.


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post #4 of 34 Old 09-22-2019, 09:55 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by indebtbassfreak View Post
First of all,,,, nice tactic on swaying the wife's mind. Two subs for me was night and day better and in most cases it should have that result. IMO placing the second sub where the cat bed is (if that's the "only" position the wife will allow) may help a bit evening out any possible nulls however if the whole room opens up left of that position i believe it will limit the gain potential of a second sub. I think you realize this too,,, with the sub-crawl you did.

Have you not checked out www.electronicsforless.ca ?? they have the bill of rights listed on their website as they are a Canadian authorized dealer for SVS so you can audition for 45 days?

Anyway as for pissing off the neighbors a second sub can add up to 6DB's more output so that potential is always there in an apartment.

Here's the view to left, yes it opens up. Very interesting you mentioned about my sub not sounding great on the left...i had no idea it was because the room opened up.


Sony 65 A1E/Marantz 7013
PSB Imagine X2T Towers / PSB C Centre
PSB Image B6 Surrounds
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X-box One X / PS4 Pro w PSVR

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post #5 of 34 Old 09-22-2019, 09:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Dustin Windsor View Post
Interesting and thanks for the input. Yes the room opens up to the left..a lot. We have our entrance/hallway and a pretty big kitchen all to the left. I didn't know having an open area could effect it. That really is amazing advice, and it sounds like i shouldn't add a 2nd sub - wife will happy.



I actually just used Electronicsforless to buy my SVS elevation speakers this week and that's where i bought my PB 1000 a few years ago. I looked on their site and they won't cover shipping back, and they have a restocking fee.
Humm,,,,, i clicked on a PB-1000 and opened up the bill of rights language on that page, it said "if" not happy within 45 days they will work with you and cover all shipping even making the return shipping arrangements themselves.

Only special orders will have no free return shipping. But i guess if the second sub is off the table it's a moot point.
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Originally Posted by Dustin Windsor View Post
Here's the view to left, yes it opens up. Very interesting you mentioned about my sub not sounding great on the left...i had no idea it was because the room opened up.
thats because there is less boundary support for the sub on the left, on the other side in the corner you have the rear wall/side wall/floor giving you three close range boundary's which will support the sub better than the other side.
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post #7 of 34 Old 09-22-2019, 10:14 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by indebtbassfreak View Post
Humm,,,,, i clicked on a PB-1000 and opened up the bill of rights language on that page, it said "if" not happy within 45 days they will work with you and cover all shipping even making the return shipping arrangements themselves.

Only special orders will have no free return shipping. But i guess if the second sub is off the table it's a moot point.

Wow i must have looked at the special order return policy, appreciate that.

One more picture for you - this is right beside me on the right of the couch. Tons of room here and my wife would love it there, she won't be able to see it!



Since it may not make sense on the left of the TV, would this spot work, or pointless? There is obviously lots of room behind the couch and open on both sides. Too close to the other sub etc?

Thanks for all your help!


Sony 65 A1E/Marantz 7013
PSB Imagine X2T Towers / PSB C Centre
PSB Image B6 Surrounds
Dual SVS PB 1000's / 4 SVS Elevation Atmos
X-box One X / PS4 Pro w PSVR

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post #8 of 34 Old 09-22-2019, 10:20 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by indebtbassfreak View Post
Humm,,,,, i clicked on a PB-1000 and opened up the bill of rights language on that page, it said "if" not happy within 45 days they will work with you and cover all shipping even making the return shipping arrangements themselves.

Only special orders will have no free return shipping. But i guess if the second sub is off the table it's a moot point.

I 100% was looking at special items returns. Only problem is i will get store credit only /exchange, not a refund.


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PSB Image B6 Surrounds
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post #9 of 34 Old 09-22-2019, 10:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Dustin Windsor View Post
Wow i must have looked at the special order return policy, appreciate that.

One more picture for you - this is right beside me on the right of the couch. Tons of room here and my wife would love it there, she won't be able to see it!



Since it may not make sense on the left of the TV, would this spot work, or pointless? There is obviously lots of room behind the couch and open on both sides. Too close to the other sub etc?

Thanks for all your help!
Can you take a photo from the TV's perspective looking behind your couch, just want to see what the back of the room looks like.
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I 100% was looking at special items returns. Only problem is i will get store credit only /exchange, not a refund.
Oh only exchange,, ok got it. SVS USA is a step above just about everyone, oh well.
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Can you take a photo from the TV's perspective looking behind your couch, just want to see what the back of the room looks like.

Realistically this would be the only other spot, but it sounds like im reaching at this point.


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Realistically this would be the only other spot, but it sounds like im reaching at this point.
Meh,,,, i'm afraid due to placement options (2 spots) neither optimal the second sub addition may not meet your expectations. You wont know for sure unless you put the second sub in your room and have a listen. Like i said a second sub may fill in any existing nulls of which could be quite noticeable if there are any bad ones, but considering the return shipping cost (for a refund) you have to decide if its worth it.

If you wanted to invest a bit over $100 for a good mic and download REW you could measure whats going on right now and see if there are any bad nulls,,,,,,,, if so,, with moving your existing sub (sometimes just inches in different directions) can make a big difference. You may conclude if nulls are minimal to pass on a second sub,,, if nulls cant be fixed in that location then investing in a second sub may be worth it to you to hopefully fill in those nulls. Decisions Decisions
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Meh,,,, i'm afraid due to placement options (2 spots) neither optimal the second sub addition may not meet your expectations. You wont know for sure unless you put the second sub in your room and have a listen. Like i said a second sub may fill in any existing nulls of which could be quite noticeable if there are any bad ones, but considering the return shipping cost (for a refund) you have to decide if its worth it.

If you wanted to invest a bit over $100 for a good mic and download REW you could measure whats going on right now and see if there are any bad nulls,,,,,,,, if so,, with moving your existing sub (sometimes just inches in different directions) can make a big difference. You may conclude if nulls are minimal to pass on a second sub,,, if nulls cant be fixed in that location then investing in a second sub may be worth it to you to hopefully fill in those nulls. Decisions Decisions

I appreciate everything you helped me with, sounds like a 2nd sub may be a waste. I need to find a retailer that accepts returns with a a full refund (and cover shipping!).


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Realistically this would be the only other spot, but it sounds like im reaching at this point.


Why don't you move the sub you have next to the couch and see how it sounds? You can pick up an RCA extension cable (1 male, 1 female end) for about $10 if you need one(or just get a second cable).
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Why don't you move the sub you have next to the couch and see how it sounds? You can pick up an RCA extension cable (1 male, 1 female end) for about $10 if you need one(or just get a second cable).

My current cable is actually long enough - I want to listen for nice clean bass if i move it to the right of the couch beside me? If the bass sounds good, than adding a 2nd one to that exact spot is a good idea?
Does it matter which way i aim the sub?


Cheers


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Originally Posted by Dustin Windsor View Post
My current cable is actually long enough - I want to listen for nice clean bass if i move it to the right of the couch beside me? If the bass sounds good, than adding a 2nd one to that exact spot is a good idea?
Does it matter which way i aim the sub?


Cheers

The best approach would be to take frequency response measurements in your current location and try to find one that is complimentary (has peaks where you current spot has dips, & vice versa). Otherwise yes, try to find one that at least sounds good. And yes, driver orientation would matter, so if your preferred spot isn't the greatest, try turning the sub in another direction.
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The best approach would be to take frequency response measurements in your current location and try to find one that is complimentary (has peaks where you current spot has dips, & vice versa). Otherwise yes, try to find one that at least sounds good. And yes, driver orientation would matter, so if your preferred spot isn't the greatest, try turning the sub in another direction.

Well that was interesting - i moved the sub into a couple places.



The front left spot (where i originally wanted to put the new sub), sounded as good as the spot its currently in...mabye a little just a little bit worse, it was hard to actually tell.
-When i did a sub crawl to get my current location, the crawl did sound much better in its existing location. Actually placing the sub in the front left and front right sounds pretty good.



-Directly beside me (side of the couch) wasn't great. I aimed the woofers towards me, towards the TV and opposite - it was the worse sounding (no even, clean bass at all).


I wonder if this changes anything and adding the 2nd sub will help?
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Sounds like you talked yourself into a new sub lol. If it is sounding pretty good on the left side as well to you now,,, then a second sub should be a noticeable improvement and hopefully will smooth out the frequency if there are nulls.

Also,,, i don't know how tall you are but your photo makes your surrounds look like their sitting quite high (i'm very short so it may just be my perception lol,) tweeters should be at ear level. If you do go for a second sub it looks like you have some room on your front sound stage to either have you mains on the outside of your sub(s), or leave the subs on the outside. You can see which sounds better to you.
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Sounds like you talked yourself into a new sub lol. If it is sounding pretty good on the left side as well to you now,,, then a second sub should be a noticeable improvement and hopefully will smooth out the frequency if there are nulls.

Also,,, i don't know how tall you are but your photo makes your surrounds look like their sitting quite high (i'm very short so it may just be my perception lol,) tweeters should be at ear level. If you do go for a second sub it looks like you have some room on your front sound stage to either have you mains on the outside of your sub(s), or leave the subs on the outside. You can see which sounds better to you.

-I never thought of putting the sub on the inside of my towers...very interesting.



-The tweeters are actually exactly 2 feet above ear level. My wife's head actually completely blocks the left speaker and tweeter if they're at ear level. I posted about it here and lots of people said 2-3 feet above the ear is where tweeters should be for the surrounds.


SVS suggests 2 feet above ears:
https://www.svsound.com/blogs/svs/74...aker-placement


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Well that was interesting - i moved the sub into a couple places.



The front left spot (where i originally wanted to put the new sub), sounded as good as the spot its currently in...mabye a little just a little bit worse, it was hard to actually tell.
-When i did a sub crawl to get my current location, the crawl did sound much better in its existing location. Actually placing the sub in the front left and front right sounds pretty good.



-Directly beside me (side of the couch) wasn't great. I aimed the woofers towards me, towards the TV and opposite - it was the worse sounding (no even, clean bass at all).


I wonder if this changes anything and adding the 2nd sub will help?

Since you've been able to identify another decent placement option, it seems a second sub would have some potential benefit, most likely another 3-6db of output. Since you live in an apartment, the best benefit might be that the subs won't have to work as hard to achieve a given level of output, and will sound better as a result.
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Since you've been able to identify another decent placement option, it seems a second sub would have some potential benefit, most likely another 3-6db of output. Since you live in an apartment, the best benefit might be that the subs won't have to work as hard to achieve a given level of output, and will sound better as a result.

Annnnd ordered the 2nd sub thanks again everyone - should be here on Tuesday.
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If you do go for a second sub it looks like you have some room on your front sound stage to either have you mains on the outside of your sub(s), or leave the subs on the outside. You can see which sounds better to you.

I was thinking about this statement and do find it interesting. The only issue is i just put up my 4 Atmos speaker mounts into my ceiling. I didn't put up the speakers yet as SVS is sending me the ceiling clips so the speakers don't fall out and kill us



My understanding is i need to align the 4 Atmos speakers with my front towers...which i did. Now if i put my subs on the inside of my towers i would need to move my towers over slightly to make room...and my Atmos speakers will end up being on the inside of the towers...instead of being aligned or even outside, i'm not sure how much of a problem that will be.


Im open to try stuff and love the advice!


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post #23 of 34 Old 09-22-2019, 06:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Dustin Windsor View Post
My understanding is i need to align the 4 Atmos speakers with my front towers...which i did.
Depends on your ceiling height. Your front tops should be at about a 45-deg angle from you, and your rears about 45 behind you. That might work out to be right above your main left and right if you are about 10ft from your speakers and the ceilings are 10ft tall, for example. Check out this guide: https://www.dolby.com/us/en/guide/sp...tup-guide.html

They don't have to be perfect though, just try to get close. A lot of variance is allowed (30-55 all falls within acceptable).
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post #24 of 34 Old 09-22-2019, 07:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Dustin Windsor View Post
-I never thought of putting the sub on the inside of my towers...very interesting.



-The tweeters are actually exactly 2 feet above ear level. My wife's head actually completely blocks the left speaker and tweeter if they're at ear level. I posted about it here and lots of people said 2-3 feet above the ear is where tweeters should be for the surrounds.


SVS suggests 2 feet above ears:
https://www.svsound.com/blogs/svs/74...aker-placement
I can understand been placed a bit higher in rooms where there is some distance to the MLP, but close range i would think it would be to far off axis. That been said Ed knows his stuff more than myself.
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post #25 of 34 Old 09-23-2019, 04:23 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anjunadeep View Post
Depends on your ceiling height. Your front tops should be at about a 45-deg angle from you, and your rears about 45 behind you. That might work out to be right above your main left and right if you are about 10ft from your speakers and the ceilings are 10ft tall, for example. Check out this guide: https://www.dolby.com/us/en/guide/sp...tup-guide.html

They don't have to be perfect though, just try to get close. A lot of variance is allowed (30-55 all falls within acceptable).

We tried our best to mount them at the 45 degrees on each way We had so many "X's" on the ceiling, measuring, calculating angles..it was comical Again a huge shout to Ed at SVS in all my questions and help mounting


Ceiling is exactly 8 feet high, and we sit 6.5-7.0 feet from the TV.


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PSB Imagine X2T Towers / PSB C Centre
PSB Image B6 Surrounds
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Last edited by Dustin Windsor; 10-09-2019 at 09:41 AM.
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post #26 of 34 Old 09-23-2019, 04:31 AM - Thread Starter
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[QUOTE=indebtbassfreak;58594690]I can understand been placed a bit higher in rooms where there is some distance to the MLP, but close range i would think it would be to far off axis. That been said Ed knows his


I've been abusing Ed as a resource to be honest, over 25 emails back and forth. I will shout SVS and Ed off the rooftops and how good they are going forward. Anyone i ever meet i will be recommending SVS because of Ed's help. I'm in sales and have a ton of annoying clients and they drive me up the wall - i think i was at that point 10 emails ago...but he keeps helping, its actually quite amazing how special they are...


I will double check with him if they still recommend the 2 feet above my ears with my current set up.


The only annoyance i'm having right now is i sit on the right, wife on the left.
-I only hear the right surround speakers in my ear, not the left speakers....at all. We raised them 2 feet up hoping it would help, but i didn't. I've ran Audssey 5 times or so. Yes if i sit in the middle seat its perfect though.



-Vice versa with my wife: she can only hear the left speakers and nothing from the right. Its been like that since we set it up.
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post #27 of 34 Old 09-23-2019, 07:18 AM
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[quote=Dustin Windsor;58595356]
Quote:
Originally Posted by indebtbassfreak View Post
I can understand been placed a bit higher in rooms where there is some distance to the MLP, but close range i would think it would be to far off axis. That been said Ed knows his


I've been abusing Ed as a resource to be honest, over 25 emails back and forth. I will shout SVS and Ed off the rooftops and how good they are going forward. Anyone i ever meet i will be recommending SVS because of Ed's help. I'm in sales and have a ton of annoying clients and they drive me up the wall - i think i was at that point 10 emails ago...but he keeps helping, its actually quite amazing how special they are...


I will double check with him if they still recommend the 2 feet above my ears with my current set up.


The only annoyance i'm having right now is i sit on the right, wife on the left.
-I only hear the right surround speakers in my ear, not the left speakers....at all. We raised them 2 feet up hoping it would help, but i didn't. I've ran Audssey 5 times or so. Yes if i sit in the middle seat its perfect though.



-Vice versa with my wife: she can only hear the left speakers and nothing from the right. Its been like that since we set it up.
If there is room,, why dont you just move the surrounds back another foot or two and angle them towards your MLP, this way regardless of the speakers height nobody's head will get in the way of the sound? Just a thought.

-Marantz SR-8012
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post #28 of 34 Old 09-23-2019, 07:58 AM - Thread Starter
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[quote=indebtbassfreak;58595944]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dustin Windsor View Post

If there is room,, why dont you just move the surrounds back another foot or two and angle them towards your MLP, this way regardless of the speakers height nobody's head will get in the way of the sound? Just a thought.

Does that usually help with these type of issues?



I decided to move the surrounds to the furthest back i can push them (1.5 feet or so) before they block the entrance to my kitchen and my wife says no as per your suggestion. The problem is now i can't see the speaker since the middle section of my couch is high and doesn't recline like the left and right side.



1st picture shows view as it is now
2nd picture shows the couch/high back will cover the speaker if i move them back at all....
Cheers


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Last edited by Dustin Windsor; 10-09-2019 at 09:42 AM.
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post #29 of 34 Old 09-23-2019, 08:07 AM
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[quote=Dustin Windsor;58596078]
Quote:
Originally Posted by indebtbassfreak View Post


Does that usually help with these type of issues?



I decided to move the surrounds to the furthest back i can push them (1.5 feet or so) before they block the entrance to my kitchen and my wife says no as per your suggestion. The problem is now i can't see the speaker since the middle section of my couch is high and doesn't recline like the left and right side.



1st picture shows view as it is now
2nd picture shows the couch/high back will cover the speaker if i move them back at all....
Cheers
Is there room behind the couch so you can tuck them in a bit more (so you have a 45 degree angle to the MLP) then they would be out of the way of the entrance to the kitchen as well as give no obstructed sound. If thats not an option then your original location with the speaker set high would be best for your situation.
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-Marantz SR-8012
-Yamaha BD-A1060
-Funk 21.0LX Master/Slave combo 4800 watts RMS/9600watts (peak)-
-Chane A-2.4 L/C/R
-Chane A-1.4 side/rear surrounds.

Last edited by indebtbassfreak; 09-23-2019 at 08:14 AM.
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post #30 of 34 Old 09-23-2019, 08:32 AM - Thread Starter
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[quote=indebtbassfreak;58596124]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dustin Windsor View Post

Is there room behind the couch so you can tuck them in a bit more (so you have a 45 degree angle to the MLP) then they would be out of the way of the entrance to the kitchen as well as give no obstructed sound. If thats not an option then your original location with the speaker set high would be best for your situation.

They can go in either of those spots, and that's it


They do sound way better 2 feet high compared to when they were ear level beside me. The issue is of course all WE hear is the left or the right depending on which side of the couch we sit on.
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PSB Image B6 Surrounds
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