Dual sub YPAO level calibration question - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 25 Old 10-12-2019, 11:29 AM - Thread Starter
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Dual sub YPAO level calibration question

So I have a Yammie 3080 and ran YPAO. It set my sub levels very hot. I have two identical subs (HSU VTF3.5) in front corners, equidistant from MLP. While playing bass heavy music, if I switch back and forth between pure direct mode and back to having the subs on, I have to set sub trim to about -6db to get a similar bass level (my quick and dirty way of integrating sub level). How does YPAO set sub level? Based on my observation it seems to set each sub individually but not the combined output of the subs? I'm basing this on the concept that adding a second sub gives about 6db gain in ideal output- this makes sense then that I would have to drop my trim by 6db to balance back to a normal level. Before I added the second sub, YPAO did not set the single sub to a similar sound; it was more natural sounding and I didn't have to trim it down at all.
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post #2 of 25 Old 10-15-2019, 03:45 PM - Thread Starter
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post #3 of 25 Old 10-15-2019, 04:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Horse View Post
So I have a Yammie 3080 and ran YPAO. It set my sub levels very hot. I have two identical subs (HSU VTF3.5) in front corners, equidistant from MLP. While playing bass heavy music, if I switch back and forth between pure direct mode and back to having the subs on, I have to set sub trim to about -6db to get a similar bass level (my quick and dirty way of integrating sub level). How does YPAO set sub level? Based on my observation it seems to set each sub individually but not the combined output of the subs? I'm basing this on the concept that adding a second sub gives about 6db gain in ideal output- this makes sense then that I would have to drop my trim by 6db to balance back to a normal level. Before I added the second sub, YPAO did not set the single sub to a similar sound; it was more natural sounding and I didn't have to trim it down at all.

I would run both subs out of the sub1 output, using a splitter, and make sure the speakers are set to small post calibration, with a crossover in the 80-100 hz range. Is that what you're doing? I would make sure you're not running LFE+mains or anything along those lines.


I don't have any insight on YPAO and how it sets levels using two sub outs, assuming that's what you're doing, but you can check post calibration levels easily enough using test tones and a spl meter. Maybe just try it again, sometimes the calibration process can get messed up for random reasons. If you find it sets both subs level, with the combined output hot, it's no big deal to trim it down a bit.
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post #4 of 25 Old 10-16-2019, 06:11 AM
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Don't use a single sub out. Use both as it will set the distance separately.

You won't get 6DB of gain adding a 2nd sub. You only get that under ideal conditions where the subs don't interfere with each other. In reality, you'll get closer to 3DB of gain.

I believe YPAO, like every room correction, is trying to adjust the gain to match the level of the other speakers. That would only make sense. And it almost certainly is adjusting all subs as one. I believe they all do that.

If you don't like the sub level, adjust it in the receiver. I always do that after running YPAO or Audyssey ot whatever.
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post #5 of 25 Old 10-16-2019, 01:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KidHorn View Post
Don't use a single sub out. Use both as it will set the distance separately.

You won't get 6DB of gain adding a 2nd sub. You only get that under ideal conditions where the subs don't interfere with each other. In reality, you'll get closer to 3DB of gain.

I believe YPAO, like every room correction, is trying to adjust the gain to match the level of the other speakers. That would only make sense. And it almost certainly is adjusting all subs as one. I believe they all do that.

If you don't like the sub level, adjust it in the receiver. I always do that after running YPAO or Audyssey ot whatever.
YPAO is adjusting each sub's level and distance individually. It just doesn't seem to be setting the level expecting both to be playing at the same time. Or it's setting level with higher frequencies that get less room gain? I dunno. Easy to adjust though, like you said.
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post #6 of 25 Old 10-16-2019, 01:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KidHorn View Post
Don't use a single sub out. Use both as it will set the distance separately.

You won't get 6DB of gain adding a 2nd sub. You only get that under ideal conditions where the subs don't interfere with each other. In reality, you'll get closer to 3DB of gain.

I believe YPAO, like every room correction, is trying to adjust the gain to match the level of the other speakers. That would only make sense. And it almost certainly is adjusting all subs as one. I believe they all do that.

If you don't like the sub level, adjust it in the receiver. I always do that after running YPAO or Audyssey ot whatever.

You don't need separate distance settings in this instance. If in fact YPAO is setting each sub level, combined 6db hot, I suspect that won't be the same result if you run them split from a single sub out.


Running two subs along the front wall from a single sub out instead of two is something I picked up here a long time ago and have been doing it for the last 7 years. There's a recent reference to it in this thread:


https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...out-there.html


As always you can do as you please.
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post #7 of 25 Old 10-17-2019, 03:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Horse View Post
YPAO is adjusting each sub's level and distance individually. It just doesn't seem to be setting the level expecting both to be playing at the same time. Or it's setting level with higher frequencies that get less room gain? I dunno. Easy to adjust though, like you said.
There's no way YPAO isn't combining the total output of all subs when setting gain. I have 4 subs, my subs aren't 4x too loud. It is setting a different distance for each channel, but it's eq'ing all the subs combined as a single sub. Not individually.
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post #8 of 25 Old 10-17-2019, 10:57 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by KidHorn View Post
There's no way YPAO isn't combining the total output of all subs when setting gain. I have 4 subs, my subs aren't 4x too loud. It is setting a different distance for each channel, but it's eq'ing all the subs combined as a single sub. Not individually.


Are you using YPAO? If so, what amp. My guess is it doesn't have 4 separate outputs- not sure how that affects things differently than me with 1 sub in each output that is controlled and eq'd independently. Also, not sure what you mean by 4x too loud - 4 subs is not 4x as loud as 1 sub, at least not perceptually.
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post #9 of 25 Old 10-17-2019, 01:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Mr. Horse View Post
Are you using YPAO? If so, what amp. My guess is it doesn't have 4 separate outputs- not sure how that affects things differently than me with 1 sub in each output that is controlled and eq'd independently. Also, not sure what you mean by 4x too loud - 4 subs is not 4x as loud as 1 sub, at least not perceptually.
I have a 3050. There are 2 sub channels. The subs are never eq'd separately. No room correction systems do that. It would be a disaster if they did since the subs interfere with each other.

Don't take 4x too loud literally. What I mean is the gain isn't set for each sub to match the volume of the other speakers. The gain is set so the combined output of all subs playing at once is set to match the volume level of the other speakers.
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post #10 of 25 Old 10-17-2019, 01:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by KidHorn View Post
I have a 3050. There are 2 sub channels. The subs are never eq'd separately. No room correction systems do that. It would be a disaster if they did since the subs interfere with each other.
My AVR absolutely eqs the subs independently. I thought independent sub eq was all the rage these days.

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The gain is set so the combined output of all subs playing at once is set to match the volume level of the other speakers.
That's what I was expecting YPAO to do, but it definitely did not do that. Subs are hot.
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post #11 of 25 Old 10-17-2019, 02:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Mr. Horse View Post
My AVR absolutely eqs the subs independently. I thought independent sub eq was all the rage these days.
Not sure where you heard/read that, but it is not true.
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post #12 of 25 Old 10-17-2019, 03:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Not sure where you heard/read that, but it is not true.
So is my AVR lying to me?
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post #13 of 25 Old 10-17-2019, 03:16 PM
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Not sure where you heard/read that, but it is not true.
At least let's HOPE it's not true!

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post #14 of 25 Old 10-17-2019, 03:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Mr. Horse View Post
So is my AVR lying to me?
How is it telling you that it's EQing each sub independently?
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post #15 of 25 Old 10-17-2019, 03:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Mr. Horse View Post
So is my AVR lying to me?
No, you are just misunderstanding it's abilities. It's very common, people confuse "separate calibration" with "separate EQ" on this forum every other day.
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post #16 of 25 Old 10-17-2019, 03:53 PM - Thread Starter
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No, you are just misunderstanding it's abilities. It's very common, people confuse "separate calibration" with "separate EQ" on this forum every other day.
I'm still not following. I'm pretty sure my my AVR shows different EQ curves for each sub. I can check again tonight and report back.
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post #17 of 25 Old 10-18-2019, 09:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Mr. Horse View Post
I'm still not following. I'm pretty sure my my AVR shows different EQ curves for each sub. I can check again tonight and report back.
Please do! With screenshots if possible.
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post #18 of 25 Old 10-18-2019, 10:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Please do! With screenshots if possible.
Different curves, as you can see.
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post #19 of 25 Old 10-19-2019, 06:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Mr. Horse View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Please do! With screenshots if possible.
Different curves, as you can see.
That's what I expected to see. My Pioneer SC-99 Also has separate EQ for each sub. Some AVRs have 2 sub out connections but they are really just one single signal that is internally split into 2 connections... as if the AVR has its own internal Y splitter. In other cases, like ours, each subwoofer out is independent and is measured and calibrated independently, which would include independent EQ ing if you are using that mode. I believe part of the issue with your system sounding hot, is that when you are listening in pure direct mode, the subs are completely bypassed (bass management is not used), and any EQ that was set during the auto calibration is also bypassed. So now, if in your room YPAO determined that it has to raise certain frequencies and lower others in order to get the best sound (with the speakers set to small so that the bass management is applied), it makes sense that you are going to get very different sound when you listen in pure direct mode which bypasses all of that.
That aside, one thing you should check is the distance settings that the AVR set for each individual subwoofer. It is possible that the subs distances calculated for use in the integration, are causing cancelations for certain frequencies during the calibration, and your AVR is trying to make up for those cancelations by turning up the subs.

I would recommend that you watch these recent videos which speak to multiple Subwoofer integrations. The videos explain different approaches that can be taken, which include using just your current equipment to get the best out of a it, and then for those of us who want to take it a step further and really nail things down properly, there is another video on using REW which allows you take your own measurements and set things properly. They were put together by one of the forum members after helping tons of people get their setup correctly. They are lengthy videos but worth watching every minute if you want to better understand what is going on when calibration is taking place. The videos should help clear up a lot of the questions that have been asked, and even ones that haven't . There's actually a thread in this forum about these videos. He made several other videos including one on gain matching your subs, which you should also watch.
Here are the links to the videos, I hope it helps.
This first link is for the basic setup like yours:
https://youtu.be/HQMl5kradA4

This next link is more advance but with much better results:
https://youtu.be/_A6gPCczhuU

Last edited by welldun; 10-19-2019 at 06:56 AM. Reason: Added more info..
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post #20 of 25 Old 10-19-2019, 05:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by welldun View Post
That's what I expected to see. My Pioneer SC-99 Also has separate EQ for each sub.
I thought you said no AVRs do that...

Quote:
I believe part of the issue with your system sounding hot, is that when you are listening in pure direct mode, the subs are completely bypassed (bass management is not used), and any EQ that was set during the auto calibration is also bypassed. So now, if in your room YPAO determined that it has to raise certain frequencies and lower others in order to get the best sound (with the speakers set to small so that the bass management is applied), it makes sense that you are going to get very different sound when you listen in pure direct mode which bypasses all of that.
I should have clarified that I have zero'd out all EQ to the subs and mains for my comparisons and level setting. It's certainly possible there is something else going on in the amp/bass management that is leading to what I'm hearing. Perhaps the amp is doing something that is not shown in the PEQ settings. Either way, it's setting my subs hot. I actually like level it set for movies, but it's way out of balance for music. Easy fix with sub trim to -6dB though.
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post #21 of 25 Old 10-21-2019, 09:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Mr. Horse View Post
Different curves, as you can see.
Thanks! Yes, I was wrong and not aware that the newer versions of YPAO do indeed apply separate EQ filters to both subs.

I also confirmed this in the 3080 thread.


However, I will still maintain that this methodology is a bad idea.
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post #22 of 25 Old 10-21-2019, 09:38 AM
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Originally Posted by welldun View Post
That's what I expected to see. My Pioneer SC-99 Also has separate EQ for each sub. Some AVRs have 2 sub out connections but they are really just one single signal that is internally split into 2 connections... as if the AVR has its own internal Y splitter. In other cases, like ours, each subwoofer out is independent and is measured and calibrated independently, which would include independent EQ ing if you are using that mode.
Not all AVRs that have independent dual subwoofer outputs apply separate EQ. I know for sure that Denon and Marantz do not.
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post #23 of 25 Old 10-21-2019, 10:03 AM
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I wasn't happy about the fact that Yamaha advertised my RX-1040 as having 2 sub outs. I was expecting to control my 2 subs independently. Its nothing more than a Y connector built inside the receiver.

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post #24 of 25 Old 10-21-2019, 10:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Not all AVRs that have independent dual subwoofer outputs apply separate EQ. I know for sure that Denon and Marantz do not.
I'm sure you are correct. When I said "in our case" , I was referring to my own Pioneer unit and the O.P's Yamaha that seems to be doing the same. I can't speak to other units like your Denon etc. since I don't have 1st hand experience with those.
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post #25 of 25 Old 10-21-2019, 11:05 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Thanks! Yes, I was wrong and not aware that the newer versions of YPAO do indeed apply separate EQ filters to both subs.

I also confirmed this in the 3080 thread.


However, I will still maintain that this methodology is a bad idea.
Ah yes. I see there are a few different methods for sub eq, but the most common is to eq the summed output of subs. I have the YPAO zero'd out anyways. I don't trust it lol.
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