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post #1 of 42 Old 10-13-2019, 05:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Recommendation on an upgrade from dual PB 2000's

Hi

I currently have a dual pb2000 setup (5.2.4). While they are great subs and perform well, I am looking for more output - I want more 'chest slam'. My room is enclosed and roughly 1500 cubic feet. Usage is 100% movies/tv.

I am located in Canada, so that does make things a little trickier.

Any recommendations on what would be a worthwhile upgrade from the dual pb2000's? Be it single or another dual setup.
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post #2 of 42 Old 10-13-2019, 05:09 PM
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Are you looking to replace or add to the existing PBs?

Chest "slam" or "kick" is typically found in the mid to upper bass regions, 50 - 150(ish) Hz, so you would be looking for subwoofers that do well in that range.

If DIY is an option check out the V.B.S.S. - https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-d...gn-thread.html. Multiple tuning options.

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post #3 of 42 Old 10-13-2019, 05:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smcmillan2 View Post
Are you looking to replace or add to the existing PBs?

Chest "slam" or "kick" is typically found in the mid to upper bass regions, 50 - 150(ish) Hz, so you would be looking for subwoofers that do well in that range.

If DIY is an option check out the V.B.S.S. - https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-d...gn-thread.html. Multiple tuning options.
Good question. I would most likely be looking to replace. I will take a look at that link, though DIY is likely not going to happen...

Regarding performing well between 50-150 are you typically looking more at box design or woofer size? Any subs in particular you'd suggest?
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post #4 of 42 Old 10-13-2019, 05:22 PM
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Originally Posted by pheare View Post
Good question. I would most likely be looking to replace. I will take a look at that link, though DIY is likely not going to happen...
Then you'll want to include your budget. I'm sure there will be many suggestions from others.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pheare
Regarding performing well between 50-150 are you typically looking more at box design or woofer size? Any subs in particular you'd suggest?
Typically a pro-style driver (think concert equipment) is built to provide what you are after. Box design does factor into it as well. As I've gone all DIY I am not well versed in the commercial offerings, nor those that would provide more midbass. The VBSS I linked to uses the Dayton Audio PA460, an 18" pro-style driver.
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post #5 of 42 Old 10-13-2019, 05:41 PM
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Look at PSA new 12 series subs. There will be lots of slam factor with the B&C Neo drivers being used. For example, 1 PSA V1512 will likely have the mid-upper bass capability of 3 PB2000's.
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post #6 of 42 Old 10-13-2019, 05:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Budget is somewhat flexible, but thinking around the $2200 usd mark. Though not sure if that will get me a worthwhile upgrade to the pb2000s.
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post #7 of 42 Old 10-13-2019, 06:05 PM
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Monoprice Monolith 15 can be had on amazon.ca. You're basically getting PB4000 performance for $500 less here in Canada


https://www.amazon.ca/Monoprice-Mono...1011288&sr=8-1


Dual PSA V1501/1502 or Dual HSU VTF-3 MK5's





message Tom V as PSA maybe you can get a deal on Dual V1501's since they are being replaced soon
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post #8 of 42 Old 10-13-2019, 06:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pheare View Post
Budget is somewhat flexible, but thinking around the $2200 usd mark. Though not sure if that will get me a worthwhile upgrade to the pb2000s.
Maybe look for something used or DIY projects that others are selling and willing to put on a pallet and ship to CA? For example, here are two 18" SI HT18 subs, in Marty style enclosures and a Behringer NX3000D amp for $900 located in Illinois.

https://chicago.craigslist.org/wcl/e...994700326.html



Get someone to ship you something like this, then you can have it all within your budget.
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post #9 of 42 Old 10-13-2019, 07:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
Look at PSA new 12 series subs. There will be lots of slam factor with the B&C Neo drivers being used. For example, 1 PSA V1512 will likely have the mid-upper bass capability of 3 PB2000's.

I'll second this and also add a sealed sub would work well in a room your size - an S1812 would give you crazy midbass. Either would be good really.
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post #10 of 42 Old 10-13-2019, 07:35 PM
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It may be a bit over your budget but i agree with basshead81 that a pair of V-1512 Neo's in 1500^3 room will give you a crap load more midbass slam and with room gain still dig nice and deep.


EDIT:

Taking a complete sideways turn here I know these wont compete in the midbass to the 12 series PSA Neo's but @darthray who lives in cold lake Alberta is selling a pair of SVS PB 13 Ultras,,, "asking" $2000 (Canadian) for both. I dont care what anyone says,,, a pair of those in 1500^3 will be F-ing violent in all frequencies imo. something to consider in the used market.
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post #11 of 42 Old 10-13-2019, 08:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
Look at PSA new 12 series subs. There will be lots of slam factor with the B&C Neo drivers being used. For example, 1 PSA V1512 will likely have the mid-upper bass capability of 3 PB2000's.
Will take a look. Thx.

Quote:
Originally Posted by macgallant View Post
Monoprice Monolith 15 can be had on amazon.ca. You're basically getting PB4000 performance for $500 less here in Canada


https://www.amazon.ca/Monoprice-Mono...1011288&sr=8-1


Dual PSA V1501/1502 or Dual HSU VTF-3 MK5's

message Tom V as PSA maybe you can get a deal on Dual V1501's since they are being replaced soon
Thanks. Will check these out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WLDock View Post
That's about $1666 USD, its going to be tough finding something new. The HSU VTF-3 MK5 HP Dual Drive is $1549 plus shipping ...will go over your budget some.
As I noted, was thinking a budget of $2200 usd. But would not be upset if I came in lower that that. Thx for the suggestions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dpc716 View Post
I'll second this and also add a sealed sub would work well in a room your size - an S1812 would give you crazy midbass. Either would be good really.
Thanks for the input.

Quote:
Originally Posted by indebtbassfreak View Post
It may be a bit over your budget but i agree with basshead81 that a pair of V-1512 Neo's in 1500^3 room will give you a crap load more midbass slam and with room gain still dig nice and deep.


EDIT:

Taking a complete sideways turn here I know these wont compete in the midbass to the 12 series PSA Neo's but @darthray who lives in cold lake Alberta is selling a pair of SVS PB 13 Ultras,,, "asking" $2000 for both. I dont care what anyone says,,, a pair of those in 1500^3 will be F-ing violent in all frequencies imo. Just a thought!!
Thanks!
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post #12 of 42 Old 10-13-2019, 08:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
Look at PSA new 12 series subs. There will be lots of slam factor with the B&C Neo drivers being used. For example, 1 PSA V1512 will likely have the mid-upper bass capability of 3 PB2000's.
I do not see this model on the PSA site? Are they new as in not released yet?
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post #13 of 42 Old 10-13-2019, 09:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pheare View Post
I do not see this model on the PSA site? Are they new as in not released yet?

These are driver upgrades to the existing product line and are available now for a premium. I would call for details about pricing and availability. He's been getting a lot of trade ins, so you might find something decent in B stock that would work for you also.
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post #14 of 42 Old 10-14-2019, 12:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by indebtbassfreak View Post
It may be a bit over your budget but i agree with basshead81 that a pair of V-1512 Neo's in 1500^3 room will give you a crap load more midbass slam and with room gain still dig nice and deep.


EDIT:

Taking a complete sideways turn here I know these wont compete in the midbass to the 12 series PSA Neo's but @darthray who lives in cold lake Alberta is selling a pair of SVS PB 13 Ultras,,, "asking" $2000 (Canadian) for both. I dont care what anyone says,,, a pair of those in 1500^3 will be F-ing violent in all frequencies imo. something to consider in the used market.
Agreed! 2 x PB13U's in that small of a room would be fantastic
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Two PB13's would be great but this is already at least his second subwoofer purchase so upgraditis may be a thing with him. Therefore, I think it's better that he gets the most slam within his budget and two V1512's will slam more than two PB13's (I'm an SVS owner who has never owned a PSA sub, so there's no bias). I believe the speciality of the PB13/PB16 is low frequencies rather than chest slam.
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post #16 of 42 Old 10-14-2019, 10:15 AM
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The PB13's would probably work pretty good...Or if its midbass you are really chasing , you can probably get a V3601 from PSA at a great deal right now...The PB2000s are tuned a little bit lower than a V36 , but it will midbass you to death in your size room!
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post #17 of 42 Old 10-14-2019, 10:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferrari_1996 View Post
Two PB13's would be great but this is already at least his second subwoofer purchase so upgraditis may be a thing with him. Therefore, I think it's better that he gets the most slam within his budget and two V1512's will slam more than two PB13's (I'm an SVS owner who has never owned a PSA sub, so there's no bias). I believe the speciality of the PB13/PB16 is low frequencies rather than chest slam.
I agree 100% if a pair are in his budget,,, was just throwing the PB13's out there as he lives fairly close to Darth and they would cost almost half.
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Originally Posted by pheare View Post
I do not see this model on the PSA site? Are they new as in not released yet?
Shoot PSA a email...the website is long overdue for updating all the new models, but I believe it will be updated soon.
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Are the two PB2000's optimally positioned and time aligned? Sometimes it can be a placement/calibration issue vs a subwoofer issue. If your currents subs & mlp are in a mid bass null, different subs won't change that. I must add that none of my subs are optimally positioned, but I find close better then way off.
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post #20 of 42 Old 10-14-2019, 12:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pheare View Post
I do not see this model on the PSA site? Are they new as in not released yet?
They are not released yet. You can find the pricing here: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/426-p...rder-info.html

You can opt for dual V1512DF instead of V1512 and save ~$250. The performance will be pretty much the same, the V1512DF is the downfiring version of the V1512 and the port is at the back instead of at the front.
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post #21 of 42 Old 10-14-2019, 12:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Zarkoff500 View Post
Are the two PB2000's optimally positioned and time aligned? Sometimes it can be a placement/calibration issue vs a subwoofer issue. If your currents subs & mlp are in a mid bass null, different subs won't change that. I must add that none of my subs are optimally positioned, but I find close better then way off.
Good point. @Zarkoff500 have you done any frequency response measurements?
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post #22 of 42 Old 10-14-2019, 01:50 PM
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Good point. @Zarkoff500 have you done any frequency response measurements?[/QUOTE]

Yes and none of my sweeps look great due go sub optimal placement and lack of REW knowledge. My four VBSS sweeps are much better since adding the second two. My two IB manifolds are pretty much what they are. I may try more watts to get some nulls bosted though. I am finding this series very helpful though https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwx...ORcMS9FmIaH1jQ.
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post #23 of 42 Old 10-14-2019, 05:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferrari_1996 View Post
Two PB13's would be great but this is already at least his second subwoofer purchase so upgraditis may be a thing with him. Therefore, I think it's better that he gets the most slam within his budget and two V1512's will slam more than two PB13's (I'm an SVS owner who has never owned a PSA sub, so there's no bias). I believe the speciality of the PB13/PB16 is low frequencies rather than chest slam.
These are my first 'real' subs. I wouldn't saying upgrading is something I do often, but every now and then I look to see what else is out there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by indebtbassfreak View Post
I agree 100% if a pair are in his budget,,, was just throwing the PB13's out there as he lives fairly close to Darth and they would cost almost half.
Ya, same province, but Cold Lake is almost 400 miles from me. Probably farther than I want to drive, but never say never.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zarkoff500 View Post
Are the two PB2000's optimally positioned and time aligned? Sometimes it can be a placement/calibration issue vs a subwoofer issue. If your currents subs & mlp are in a mid bass null, different subs won't change that. I must add that none of my subs are optimally positioned, but I find close better then way off.
Admittedly, no, they likely are not. My space is almost rectangular, but one length does jut out a few feet to make it a bit of an odd shaped room. Currently have the subs kitty-corner to each other (front and back wall). Years ago I did use REW when I had only one sub. In that time not only have I added a second sub, but I have also removed my back row of seating - so now the back wall has opened up for sub placement. I also now only have a suface pro 3 and not sure how I would hook up the mike and also connect to my reciever (to run the test tones).

I probably should figure this out and make sure sub placement is good before getting anything else. It is just I have forgotten all I learned about REW and not terribly keen on figuring it all out again, but I probably will have to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GatoGoat View Post
The PB13's would probably work pretty good...Or if its midbass you are really chasing , you can probably get a V3601 from PSA at a great deal right now...The PB2000s are tuned a little bit lower than a V36 , but it will midbass you to death in your size room!
That thing is a behemoth. According to the site, no more stock on the V3601. I can't imagine what it would cost to ship to Canada. Also not sure how I would even move that thing around when trying to figure out where to place it.

I wonder if a guy would be better off with one of those or 2 optimally placed v1512s.
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Originally Posted by pheare View Post
I probably should figure this out and make sure sub placement is good before getting anything else. It is just I have forgotten all I learned about REW and not terribly keen on figuring it all out again, but I probably will have to.
If REW isn't a viable option, look into the sub crawl. An inexpensive SPL meter and a little lifting will let you know where the best spots are.

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post #25 of 42 Old 10-14-2019, 05:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pheare View Post

Admittedly, no, they likely are not. My space is almost rectangular, but one length does jut out a few feet to make it a bit of an odd shaped room. Currently have the subs kitty-corner to each other (front and back wall). Years ago I did use REW when I had only one sub. In that time not only have I added a second sub, but I have also removed my back row of seating - so now the back wall has opened up for sub placement. I also now only have a suface pro 3 and not sure how I would hook up the mike and also connect to my reciever (to run the test tones).

I probably should figure this out and make sure sub placement is good before getting anything else. It is just I have forgotten all I learned about REW and not terribly keen on figuring it all out again, but I probably will have to.
.
That video I linked in my previous quote is really handy as well as the other videos in the series. It also explains why the sub crawl isn't nearly as effective as using REW. Having the ability to measure/quantify your placement makes a considerable difference in your music/movie experience when the subs can be placed more optimally. Maybe there is someone on here close to you that could assist with a calibration?

I have been chasing better bass for about three years now and am starting to understand what I was looking for thanks to the fine folks here and REW. Once you have had some time with your current set up once set up to your liking, it is possible you may not need an upgrade, maybe just some room treatments
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post #26 of 42 Old 10-14-2019, 06:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferrari_1996 View Post
Two PB13's would be great but this is already at least his second subwoofer purchase so upgraditis may be a thing with him. Therefore, I think it's better that he gets the most slam within his budget and two V1512's will slam more than two PB13's (I'm an SVS owner who has never owned a PSA sub, so there's no bias). I believe the speciality of the PB13/PB16 is low frequencies rather than chest slam.
@pheare mentioning you, for info.

You are indeed correct
That said, I do this on mine;
III-C: Cascading Crossovers:
Lot's of mid bass slam, by doing so. The underground scene, in John Wick 2 were wicked
Also the PB13, was replace by the new PB4000. And consider to be the same, for output.


Darth
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post #27 of 42 Old 10-15-2019, 08:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pheare View Post
These are my first 'real' subs. I wouldn't saying upgrading is something I do often, but every now and then I look to see what else is out there.



Ya, same province, but Cold Lake is almost 400 miles from me. Probably farther than I want to drive, but never say never.



Admittedly, no, they likely are not. My space is almost rectangular, but one length does jut out a few feet to make it a bit of an odd shaped room. Currently have the subs kitty-corner to each other (front and back wall). Years ago I did use REW when I had only one sub. In that time not only have I added a second sub, but I have also removed my back row of seating - so now the back wall has opened up for sub placement. I also now only have a suface pro 3 and not sure how I would hook up the mike and also connect to my reciever (to run the test tones).

I probably should figure this out and make sure sub placement is good before getting anything else. It is just I have forgotten all I learned about REW and not terribly keen on figuring it all out again, but I probably will have to.



That thing is a behemoth. According to the site, no more stock on the V3601. I can't imagine what it would cost to ship to Canada. Also not sure how I would even move that thing around when trying to figure out where to place it.

I wonder if a guy would be better off with one of those or 2 optimally placed v1512s.
Ive had dual V15s and they are great! But after having dual V1801's , im pretty sure the V36 will midbass someone to death lol...
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post #28 of 42 Old 10-15-2019, 09:59 AM - Thread Starter
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Something else I should mention is that I am now down to a single row of seating and that single row only has 2 seats.

I used to have 8 seat evenly spread over 2 rows.

Given that I now have such a ‘narrow focus’ in terms of ensuring even bass response among my seating, I wonder if there is still really a need for a dual setup?

Right now I have my subs in kitty corner to each other, but am wondering if co-locating them near-field (behind seats) may give me a little more of that mid-bass oomph?

I know I am going to have to break out REW to figure things out for sure, but generally speaking, thoughts on this?

Or if I do replace, might I be fine with a single 15 or 18?

I’ve also included a (very) rough mock-up of my space.
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post #29 of 42 Old 10-15-2019, 10:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pheare View Post
Something else I should mention is that I am now down to a single row of seating and that single row only has 2 seats.

I used to have 8 seat evenly spread over 2 rows.

Given that I now have such a ‘narrow focus’ in terms of ensuring even bass response among my seating, I wonder if there is still really a need for a dual setup?

Right now I have my subs in kitty corner to each other, but am wondering if co-locating them near-field (behind seats) may give me a little more of that mid-bass oomph?

I know I am going to have to break out REW to figure things out for sure, but generally speaking, thoughts on this?

Or if I do replace, might I be fine with a single 15 or 18?

I’ve also included a (very) rough mock-up of my space.

Mid room seating can be tricky for bass, I would try walking back and forth playing a test tone and see is seating further back might work better.


If you don't want to go whole hog with REW you can try playing a mid bass movie scene(like the first battle scene in Master and Commander) and see how loud you can get it measuring with a spl meter. If you're not getting output in line with what would be expected with a pair of PB2000's, then you would look to optimize first. I'd guess that to be somewhere in the 110-115db range.
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post #30 of 42 Old 10-15-2019, 10:36 AM
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+1^

As mentioned closer to the center of the rooms long wall from the front sound stage the more challenging it is for bass response, approximately aim for the first third or the back third for mlp (give or take) Could make a big difference.
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