Advice on running subwoofer hot - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 95Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 84 Old 10-17-2019, 04:38 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
meak81's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
Posts: 97
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 60 Post(s)
Liked: 9
Advice on running subwoofer hot

If there is a thread on this topic already I apologize but I would love your guy's input on this. I ran audyssey and I ended up with a sub trim of -10db, my system sounds great but I definitely crave more bass!!😬 I have a PB16 Ultra sub with Ultra bookshelf speakers for my mains, I want to try and bump my sub up +4db so that would put my sub at -6db with no DEQ active of course.. but I would like to hear what You guys think first? Recommend or not? Thank you in advance.
meak81 is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 84 Old 10-17-2019, 05:30 AM
Senior Member
 
N.REED's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Ky
Posts: 245
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 24 Post(s)
Liked: 32
I think you can get by running the sub up to 6-8db hot relative to the rest. Any more than that and the bass becomes annoying when watching regular tv.
N.REED is offline  
post #3 of 84 Old 10-17-2019, 06:21 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
eljaycanuck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 9,904
Mentioned: 38 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1916 Post(s)
Liked: 2699
Quote:
Originally Posted by meak81
… I ran audyssey and I ended up with a sub trim of -10db … I want to try and bump my sub up +4db so that would put my sub at -6db … Recommend or not? …
Trying it costs nothing so IMO try various levels of "hotness" and go with the one that is most satisfying to you.
sdurani, Alan P, darthray and 2 others like this.
eljaycanuck is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #4 of 84 Old 10-17-2019, 07:26 AM
Advanced Member
 
jsc79's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Minnesota SW Metro Area
Posts: 724
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 442 Post(s)
Liked: 544
Go for it. Running them hot is much more enjoyable in my opinion.

I run mine with a 6db house curve in my MiniDSP 2x4hd and then +2 or 3 in my avr sub trim for normal watching.

If I’m doing a BEQ for movies I run a +3 house curve and +1 to 2db in my avr.
darthray likes this.

Subwoofers: Dual Rythmik FV18
Speakers: L/R Ascend Acoustics Sierra 2EX - Center - Horizon w/RAAL Surrounds: Sonance VP62R SST/SUR. Vinyl:Rega Planar 3/Ascend Sierra 2
Video: Sony XBR65X900e 65" 4K - Sony UBP-X800 Blu Ray
Power and Processing: Yamaha RXA1030 - Monolith 7X Amp - Minidsp 2X4 HD/WI-DG
jsc79 is online now  
post #5 of 84 Old 10-17-2019, 07:33 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
m0j0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Florida
Posts: 1,633
Mentioned: 23 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 647 Post(s)
Liked: 655
The simple answer is yes, you can bump up your sub trim by +4db. In fact, most people do run their subs a bit hot (though not all). It's a preference thing. I find some movies require me to dial back the subs a few db's (like Godzilla, for example), so there may be times when it sounds a bit much and you will need to be prepared to adjust, or just go with the most bombastic bass movies you can find (like the recent Godzilla, Blade Runner 2049, Fury, etc.) and tune to those movies first, then use that as your baseline (house curve).
darthray and MALICIOUS ONE like this.
m0j0 is online now  
post #6 of 84 Old 10-17-2019, 07:36 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
confinoj's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Shaker Heights, OH
Posts: 2,068
Mentioned: 26 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1273 Post(s)
Liked: 1108
Quote:
Originally Posted by meak81 View Post
If there is a thread on this topic already I apologize but I would love your guy's input on this. I ran audyssey and I ended up with a sub trim of -10db, my system sounds great but I definitely crave more bass!!😬 I have a PB16 Ultra sub with Ultra bookshelf speakers for my mains, I want to try and bump my sub up +4db so that would put my sub at -6db with no DEQ active of course.. but I would like to hear what You guys think first? Recommend or not? Thank you in advance.
People run subs from below Audyssey (or other software) calibration levels to ridiculously hot. Totally up to you. A typical post Audyssey boost is 4-6db.
Alan P, darthray and basshead81 like this.

LG OLED65C7P (Chad B Calibrated) | Denon X4300H | HDHomeRun Quatro | Nvidia Shield Pro 2019 | ATV 4K | Oppo UDP-203 | 40TB Plex server
5.2.4 | Front Klipsch RP-160M x2 | Center Klipsch RP-450C | Surrounds Klipsch RP-150M x2 | Atmos Klipsch RP-140SA x 4 | Subs SVS PC-4000 x 2
confinoj is online now  
post #7 of 84 Old 10-17-2019, 07:57 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
darthray's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Cold lake Alberta Canada
Posts: 6,701
Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2290 Post(s)
Liked: 3341
Quote:
Originally Posted by confinoj View Post
People run subs from below Audyssey (or other software) calibration levels to ridiculously hot. Totally up to you. A typical post Audyssey boost is 4-6db.
+1
With the key word, post Audyssey.

Quote:
Originally Posted by m0j0 View Post
The simple answer is yes, you can bump up your sub trim by +4db. In fact, most people do run their subs a bit hot (though not all). It's a preference thing. I find some movies require me to dial back the subs a few db's (like Godzilla, for example), so there may be times when it sounds a bit much and you will need to be prepared to adjust, or just go with the most bombastic bass movies you can find (like the recent Godzilla, Blade Runner 2049, Fury, etc.) and tune to those movies first, then use that as your baseline (house curve).
+1

Quote:
Originally Posted by meak81 View Post
If there is a thread on this topic already I apologize but I would love your guy's input on this. I ran audyssey and I ended up with a sub trim of -10db, my system sounds great but I definitely crave more bass!!😬 I have a PB16 Ultra sub with Ultra bookshelf speakers for my mains, I want to try and bump my sub up +4db so that would put my sub at -6db with no DEQ active of course.. but I would like to hear what You guys think first? Recommend or not? Thank you in advance.
A very good number to be at

Now all you require to do, is boosting the level from your AVR for the level of bass you prefer. Just a preference thing. Mine is,+1.5 dB post Audyssey, but many like +5 dB. Just a matter of how bass you personally like.


Darth
MALICIOUS ONE likes this.

Last edited by darthray; 10-17-2019 at 08:09 AM.
darthray is online now  
post #8 of 84 Old 10-17-2019, 01:37 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
indebtbassfreak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Squamish BC
Posts: 2,698
Mentioned: 37 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1464 Post(s)
Liked: 2830
Just concurring to the above posts. I run mine +5/+8 DB's hot "depending on source material" (with NO dynamic EQ applied) up to a max MV of -8 DB's for movies,,, if i ever attempt to go louder i would back the subs down a couple more DB's. I'm going to assume you have your speakers set as "small" and X-over on mains around 80Hz?

You have a potent sub so dont be afraid to give it a little boost until you find "your" sweet spot. Enjoy!!!
darthray and d-rail34 like this.

-Marantz SR-8012
-Yamaha BD-A1060
-Funk 21.0LX Master/Slave combo 4800 watts RMS/9600watts (peak)-
-Chane A-2.4 L/C/R
-Chane A-1.4 side/rear surrounds.
indebtbassfreak is offline  
post #9 of 84 Old 10-17-2019, 01:43 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
imureh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 4,673
Mentioned: 228 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2928 Post(s)
Liked: 3733
Quote:
Originally Posted by meak81 View Post
If there is a thread on this topic already I apologize but I would love your guy's input on this. I ran audyssey and I ended up with a sub trim of -10db, my system sounds great but I definitely crave more bass!!😬 I have a PB16 Ultra sub with Ultra bookshelf speakers for my mains, I want to try and bump my sub up +4db so that would put my sub at -6db with no DEQ active of course.. but I would like to hear what You guys think first? Recommend or not? Thank you in advance.
That is easily achievable. Its all personal preference. I run my about 12db hot plus a house curve plus BEQ so that is a lot of boosting but still sounds stellar to me

Subwoofers: Dual Rythmik FV18s Rev2 with Paper cone, BOSS Platform mini riser, 2 BK LFE
Speakers: PSA MTM-210 L/C/R - Klipsch 250S Surrounds, PSA MT 110sr Rear Surrounds, 4 x SVS Prime Elevation for Atmos
Video: Epson PowerLite Home Cinema 6500 UB; Room: 2100 cuft sealed on suspended floor
Receiver & Players: Denon X4400H, Oppo UDP-203, Roku Ultra. Apple TV, Minidsp 2X4 HD
imureh is online now  
post #10 of 84 Old 10-17-2019, 02:31 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Alan P's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: South Dakota
Posts: 11,943
Mentioned: 114 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6522 Post(s)
Liked: 5872
Of course you can, many people run their subs much (MUCH!) hotter than that and as has been said, it is typical to boost the sub trim post-Audyssey.

A great resource for all things subwoofer (and much more) is @mthomas47 's incredible Guide to Subwoofer Calibration and Bass Preferences linked in my sig.
darthray, mthomas47 and d-rail34 like this.
Alan P is online now  
post #11 of 84 Old 10-17-2019, 05:49 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
meak81's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
Posts: 97
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 60 Post(s)
Liked: 9
Thanks everyone for the advice, very much appreciated! I'm going to go for it and try a 6db boost and go from there 😁. I love the opening of the movie Overlord so I can't wait to see how it sounds with the added sub boost.. thanks again everyone.
meak81 is online now  
post #12 of 84 Old 10-17-2019, 05:52 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Ed Mullen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,529
Mentioned: 33 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 358 Post(s)
Liked: 820
A +4 dB post-Audyssey boost to the subwoofer channel level is very normal/typical.

Keep in mind that running the subwoofer channel hotter consumes available dynamic headroom - so the subwoofer will hit its limits that much earlier. A 6 dB hotness increase (for example) is a doubling of the sound pressure level from the subwoofer - so it's working twice as hard as it otherwise would be for any given MV setting.

Usually not an issue with the PB16-Ultra - but all subwoofers have limits so it's good to watch for signs of compression or overdrive distress if you are pushing the entire system really loud on demanding source material.

Ed Mullen
Director - Technology and Customer Service
SVS

"What We Do In Life, Echoes In Eternity"
Ed Mullen is offline  
post #13 of 84 Old 10-17-2019, 05:58 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
zeus33's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 4,156
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1845 Post(s)
Liked: 1907
Quote:
Originally Posted by imureh View Post
I run my about 12db hot plus a house curve plus BEQ so that is a lot of boosting .......



Are you torture testing for Enrico?
zeus33 is online now  
post #14 of 84 Old 10-17-2019, 06:00 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
meak81's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
Posts: 97
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 60 Post(s)
Liked: 9
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Mullen View Post
A +4 dB post-Audyssey boost to the subwoofer channel level is very normal/typical.

Keep in mind that running the subwoofer channel hotter consumes available dynamic headroom - so the subwoofer will hit its limits that much earlier. A 6 dB hotness increase (for example) is a doubling of the sound pressure level from the subwoofer - so it's working twice as hard as it otherwise would be for any given MV setting.

Usually not an issue with the PB16-Ultra - but all subwoofers have limits so it's good to watch for signs of compression or overdrive distress if you are pushing the entire system really loud on demanding source material.
Thank you, I will definitely keep all that in mind.
meak81 is online now  
post #15 of 84 Old 10-17-2019, 06:04 PM
Member
 
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 159
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 124 Post(s)
Liked: 102
What's the gain on the PB16 itself?

5.2.2 | Samsung KS8500 | Sony UBP-X800 | Yamaha RX-A1060 | SVS Ultra Center | SVS Ultra Towers | SVS Ultra Bookshelves | SVS Prime Elevations | 2x PB16-Ultra | Emotiva XPA-3 Gen3 | Emotiva BasX A-300
DarkEnigma is offline  
post #16 of 84 Old 10-17-2019, 06:15 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
imureh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 4,673
Mentioned: 228 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2928 Post(s)
Liked: 3733
Quote:
Originally Posted by zeus33 View Post




Are you torture testing for Enrico?


Haha. Yeah I am. It just sounds so darn good.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
d-rail34 likes this.

Subwoofers: Dual Rythmik FV18s Rev2 with Paper cone, BOSS Platform mini riser, 2 BK LFE
Speakers: PSA MTM-210 L/C/R - Klipsch 250S Surrounds, PSA MT 110sr Rear Surrounds, 4 x SVS Prime Elevation for Atmos
Video: Epson PowerLite Home Cinema 6500 UB; Room: 2100 cuft sealed on suspended floor
Receiver & Players: Denon X4400H, Oppo UDP-203, Roku Ultra. Apple TV, Minidsp 2X4 HD
imureh is online now  
post #17 of 84 Old 10-17-2019, 06:50 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
darthray's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Cold lake Alberta Canada
Posts: 6,701
Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2290 Post(s)
Liked: 3341
Quote:
Originally Posted by imureh View Post
That is easily achievable. Its all personal preference. I run my about 12db hot plus a house curve plus BEQ so that is a lot of boosting but still sounds stellar to me
Big +1, for been a preference.

In your case, that's insane
I can see why now, you talk me into getting dual FV18


Darth
darthray is online now  
post #18 of 84 Old 10-17-2019, 06:53 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
imureh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 4,673
Mentioned: 228 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2928 Post(s)
Liked: 3733
Quote:
Originally Posted by darthray View Post
Big +1, for been a preference.


In your case, that's insane
I can see why now, you talk me into getting dual FV18


I would take it easy initially. Those things pack a lot of punch and power. Since the bass is so clean it’s deceiving till you find things falling off shelves on the other side of the house.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
darthray likes this.

Subwoofers: Dual Rythmik FV18s Rev2 with Paper cone, BOSS Platform mini riser, 2 BK LFE
Speakers: PSA MTM-210 L/C/R - Klipsch 250S Surrounds, PSA MT 110sr Rear Surrounds, 4 x SVS Prime Elevation for Atmos
Video: Epson PowerLite Home Cinema 6500 UB; Room: 2100 cuft sealed on suspended floor
Receiver & Players: Denon X4400H, Oppo UDP-203, Roku Ultra. Apple TV, Minidsp 2X4 HD
imureh is online now  
post #19 of 84 Old 10-17-2019, 07:00 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
darthray's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Cold lake Alberta Canada
Posts: 6,701
Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2290 Post(s)
Liked: 3341
Quote:
Originally Posted by imureh View Post
I would take it easy initially. Those things pack a lot of punch and power. Since the bass is so clean it’s deceiving till you find things falling off shelves on the other side of the house.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Thanks for the advise, ETA is just 4 weeks to go before the next shipment is ready to go.
Just have this old song stuck in my head, and not even related other that the first line;


Oh where are my new baby's


Darth
mthomas47, Shadowed and d-rail34 like this.

Last edited by darthray; 10-17-2019 at 07:05 PM.
darthray is online now  
post #20 of 84 Old 10-17-2019, 09:26 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
meak81's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
Posts: 97
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 60 Post(s)
Liked: 9
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkEnigma View Post
What's the gain on the PB16 itself?
The gain is at -16db.
meak81 is online now  
post #21 of 84 Old 10-17-2019, 09:38 PM
Member
 
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 159
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 124 Post(s)
Liked: 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by meak81 View Post
The gain is at -16db.
Oh yeah you've got plenty of headroom. I'd say turn it up .
d-rail34 likes this.

5.2.2 | Samsung KS8500 | Sony UBP-X800 | Yamaha RX-A1060 | SVS Ultra Center | SVS Ultra Towers | SVS Ultra Bookshelves | SVS Prime Elevations | 2x PB16-Ultra | Emotiva XPA-3 Gen3 | Emotiva BasX A-300
DarkEnigma is offline  
post #22 of 84 Old 10-17-2019, 09:48 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Shadowed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 2,271
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 962 Post(s)
Liked: 925
You won't get much bass out of this guy...




Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	bassman.JPG
Views:	78
Size:	26.5 KB
ID:	2628864  
Shadowed is offline  
post #23 of 84 Old 10-18-2019, 07:17 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: UK
Posts: 280
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 212 Post(s)
Liked: 225
Quote:
Originally Posted by zeus33 View Post


Are you torture testing for Enrico?
Currently I'm running... well I don't know how hot. This is what I've done after the Audyssey calibration:

  • Audyssey set the subwoofer trim at -10.5. It's currently at -6 so that's +4.5dB
  • I decreased the trims of the fronts by 8dB, this is a sneaky way of increasing the bass at every volume as now the front's are -8dB after calibration. So that's essentially making the subwoofer 8dB louder in relation to the fronts.
  • We're now at +12.5dB for the subwoofer in relation to the fronts.
  • I didn't stop there. That's still not enough for me.
  • I increased the gain on my subwoofer by 5 indents. No idea how much extra dB this added. Let's just say it only adds 1dB per indent. We're now at +17.5dB of the subwoofer in relation to the fronts.
  • I also run DEQ with the Reference Level Offset set to 15dB (the mildest form of DEQ). I almost always listen below -15, so I'm getting extra bass boost due to DEQ too.

So usually my bass at least +20dB over the fronts.

You might be thinking "maybe he has a massive room or is sitting in a bass null". My setup is in my bedroom, and I'm not sitting in a bass null. I've moved my subwoofer around and the corner of the room seems to be best for bass output.

You can't leave the subwoofer as-is after Audyssey, unless you like anemic bass.

I win @imureh !
Alan P likes this.
Ferrari_1996 is offline  
post #24 of 84 Old 10-18-2019, 07:20 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
imureh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 4,673
Mentioned: 228 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2928 Post(s)
Liked: 3733
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferrari_1996 View Post
Currently I'm running... well I don't know how hot. This is what I've done after the Audyssey calibration:




  • Audyssey set the subwoofer trim at -10.5. It's currently at -6 so that's +4.5dB
  • I decreased the trims of the fronts by 8dB, this is a sneaky way of increasing the bass at every volume as now the front's are -8dB after calibration. So that's essentially making the subwoofer 8dB louder in relation to the fronts.
  • We're now at +12.5dB for the subwoofer in relation to the fronts.
  • I didn't stop there. That's still not enough for me.
  • I increased the gain on my subwoofer by 5 indents. No idea how much extra dB this added. Let's just say it only adds 1dB per indent. We're now at +17.5dB of the subwoofer in relation to the fronts.
  • I also run DEQ with the Reference Level Offset set to 15dB (the mildest form of DEQ). I almost always listen below -15, so I'm getting extra bass boost due to DEQ too.



So usually my bass at least +20dB over the fronts.



You might be thinking "maybe he has a massive room or is sitting in a bass null". My setup is in my bedroom, And I'm not sitting in a bass null. I've moved my subwoofer around and the corner of the room seems to be best for bass output. You can't leave the subwoofer as-is after Audyssey, unless you like anemic bass.



I win @imureh !


I don’t know man. Those BEQs can add up to 20db boost plus my house curve of 10db and 12 db hot.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Subwoofers: Dual Rythmik FV18s Rev2 with Paper cone, BOSS Platform mini riser, 2 BK LFE
Speakers: PSA MTM-210 L/C/R - Klipsch 250S Surrounds, PSA MT 110sr Rear Surrounds, 4 x SVS Prime Elevation for Atmos
Video: Epson PowerLite Home Cinema 6500 UB; Room: 2100 cuft sealed on suspended floor
Receiver & Players: Denon X4400H, Oppo UDP-203, Roku Ultra. Apple TV, Minidsp 2X4 HD
imureh is online now  
post #25 of 84 Old 10-18-2019, 07:56 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Miami Beach, FL
Posts: 382
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 294 Post(s)
Liked: 203
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkEnigma View Post
Oh yeah you've got plenty of headroom. I'd say turn it up .
Where the gain knob is set is not an indication of how much headroom you have, it's just an adjustment for the input sensitivity to "stage" the gain chain from the receiver to the subwoofer amplifier.

Quote:
Originally Posted by m0j0 View Post
The simple answer is yes, you can bump up your sub trim by +4db. In fact, most people do run their subs a bit hot (though not all). It's a preference thing. I find some movies require me to dial back the subs a few db's (like Godzilla, for example), so there may be times when it sounds a bit much and you will need to be prepared to adjust, or just go with the most bombastic bass movies you can find (like the recent Godzilla, Blade Runner 2049, Fury, etc.) and tune to those movies first, then use that as your baseline (house curve).
I might be telling you something you already know, but, if you have a MiniDSP with the wifi adapter those quick adjustments are so easy and don't even have to get out of your chair!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Mullen View Post
A +4 dB post-Audyssey boost to the subwoofer channel level is very normal/typical.

Keep in mind that running the subwoofer channel hotter consumes available dynamic headroom - so the subwoofer will hit its limits that much earlier. A 6 dB hotness increase (for example) is a doubling of the sound pressure level from the subwoofer - so it's working twice as hard as it otherwise would be for any given MV setting.

Usually not an issue with the PB16-Ultra - but all subwoofers have limits so it's good to watch for signs of compression or overdrive distress if you are pushing the entire system really loud on demanding source material.
As soon as you engage Audyssey and DynamicEQ, headroom can get eaten up really fast as well.

First Audyssey, which imo is EQs too aggressively, especially in boosting nulls. I've seen Audyssey try to EQ a small null +7dB, that's absolutely crazy. I've seen it do massive cuts as well, which can eat up headroom just as bad. See this post for a great writeup on that https://www.avnirvana.com/threads/so...21/#post-34138

Another big factor is if DynamicEQ is engaged. At -10dB on the MV DEQ is adding another 4dB at 20Hz, at -20dB it's adding another 9dB at 20Hz. So if someone adds +4dB of boost to the sub level, and turns on DEQ, then watches a movie at -12dB or so on the MV, they can be adding another 5dB on top of the 4dB already added at 20Hz.

As much as I like simplicity, I think the best thing someone can do for their subs now is to disable Audyssey on the LFE and get a MiniDSP and REW. Then just apply some low Q adjustments to tailor the bass gently. Just Audyssey alone and you have a black hole.
Alan P likes this.
anjunadeep is offline  
post #26 of 84 Old 10-18-2019, 09:21 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: UK
Posts: 280
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 212 Post(s)
Liked: 225
Quote:
Originally Posted by imureh View Post
I don’t know man. Those BEQs can add up to 20db boost plus my house curve of 10db and 12 db hot.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Fair points. Let's share the gold AVS Bass Boost Trophy
darthray and imureh like this.
Ferrari_1996 is offline  
post #27 of 84 Old 10-18-2019, 09:36 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Ed Mullen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,529
Mentioned: 33 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 358 Post(s)
Liked: 820
Quote:
Originally Posted by anjunadeep View Post
Where the gain knob is set is not an indication of how much headroom you have, it's just an adjustment for the input sensitivity to "stage" the gain chain from the receiver to the subwoofer amplifier
Exactly correct. Even though we call it a volume control for the casual users - it's actually a gain control. It simply adds a fixed amount of gain to the incoming signal in order to achieve the desired final calibration level relative to that of the speaker channels (in this case 4 dB hot).

Unlike a volume control (which really does limit output), the Sledge 1500D can still be driven to full rated power (with a sufficiently strong input signal) with the gain set all the way down to about -25, which covers almost any conceivable set-up and room size from a calibration standpoint.
jamiebosco likes this.

Ed Mullen
Director - Technology and Customer Service
SVS

"What We Do In Life, Echoes In Eternity"
Ed Mullen is offline  
post #28 of 84 Old 10-18-2019, 12:54 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: UK
Posts: 280
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 212 Post(s)
Liked: 225
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Mullen View Post
Exactly correct. Even though we call it a volume control for the casual users - it's actually a gain control. It simply adds a fixed amount of gain to the incoming signal in order to achieve the desired final calibration level relative to that of the speaker channels (in this case 4 dB hot).

Unlike a volume control (which really does limit output), the Sledge 1500D can still be driven to full rated power (with a sufficiently strong input signal) with the gain set all the way down to about -25, which covers almost any conceivable set-up and room size from a calibration standpoint.
That's what I thought but Scott Miller of SVS thinks otherwise.

Quote:
(08:45:44 PM) Me: What is the problem with a high subwoofer gain?
(08:46:31 PM) Me: I use the trigger out so auto-on is not a problem with low sub trim
(08:47:14 PM) Scott Miller: At a level of -12 on the receiver the subwoofer is getting almost no voltage so may easily shut down during playback. Raising the receiver to 0 and dropping the subwoofer volume down gives the subwoofer amp headroom for demanding scenes rather than being maxed out
Some of the SVS staff may need a technical lesson so that they don't give out false information.
Ferrari_1996 is offline  
post #29 of 84 Old 10-18-2019, 02:43 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Miami Beach, FL
Posts: 382
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 294 Post(s)
Liked: 203
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferrari_1996 View Post
That's what I thought but Scott Miller of SVS thinks otherwise.



Some of the SVS staff may need a technical lesson so that they don't give out false information.
He isn't wrong though. You want to stage the gain. The best scenario is where your receiver and amplifier would clip at basically the same point, which maximizes headroom and minimizes noise floor (with more sensitive speakers that is more noticeable). If your subwoofer gain knob is turned down very low, then you will need to run your receivers levels higher to compensate - and vice versa. That's why in forum tribal knowledge a lot of times people say that if you want to run your subs hot, you should configure the gain knob on the back of your subwoofer a bit higher so that Audyssey will set the trim level lower, that way when you raise the trim back toward 0dB there is less potential of clipping from the preprocessor/reciever. That came from people running Audyssey, adjusting the gain knob following the Audyssey pre-prompts, and then ending up with a 0dB trim on the their receiver, then saying "I want more bass!" and turning the receiver trim much higher, and then experiencing some funny noises that turn out to be the receivers subwoofer outputs clipping. Unfortunately consumer gear is all a black hole and there aren't any clip lights, so you just have to use a bit of judgement as an end user and rely on manufacturers to give you advice on what they have found in their testing.

If your subwoofers aren't triggering on with normal content, he is saying you might want to raise the subwoofer trim in the receiver and then lower the gain (what he is calling volume, to be consumer friendly) on the back of the subwoofer. He is incorrect in calling it a volume knob, but, telling the typical end user "gain" is meaningless to them and just would cause confusion. He is probably going off of experience there. Most receivers are pretty similar in how hot their outputs are, and he knows the sensitivity of the subwoofers amplifier for being able to sense that signal coming in, and he ballpark knows that you're gain will be better staged after making that adjustment.
Alan P, darthray and d-rail34 like this.
anjunadeep is offline  
post #30 of 84 Old 10-18-2019, 03:17 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: UK
Posts: 280
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 212 Post(s)
Liked: 225
Quote:
Originally Posted by anjunadeep View Post
He isn't wrong though. You want to stage the gain. The best scenario is where your receiver and amplifier would clip at basically the same point, which maximizes headroom and minimizes noise floor (with more sensitive speakers that is more noticeable). If your subwoofer gain knob is turned down very low, then you will need to run your receivers levels higher to compensate - and vice versa. That's why in forum tribal knowledge a lot of times people say that if you want to run your subs hot, you should configure the gain knob on the back of your subwoofer a bit higher so that Audyssey will set the trim level lower, that way when you raise the trim back toward 0dB there is less potential of clipping from the preprocessor/reciever. That came from people running Audyssey, adjusting the gain knob following the Audyssey pre-prompts, and then ending up with a 0dB trim on the their receiver, then saying "I want more bass!" and turning the receiver trim much higher, and then experiencing some funny noises that turn out to be the receivers subwoofer outputs clipping. Unfortunately consumer gear is all a black hole and there aren't any clip lights, so you just have to use a bit of judgement as an end user and rely on manufacturers to give you advice on what they have found in their testing.

If your subwoofers aren't triggering on with normal content, he is saying you might want to raise the subwoofer trim in the receiver and then lower the gain (what he is calling volume, to be consumer friendly) on the back of the subwoofer. He is incorrect in calling it a volume knob, but, telling the typical end user "gain" is meaningless to them and just would cause confusion. He is probably going off of experience there. Most receivers are pretty similar in how hot their outputs are, and he knows the sensitivity of the subwoofers amplifier for being able to sense that signal coming in, and he ballpark knows that you're gain will be better staged after making that adjustment.
- He said that reducing the gain increase the subwoofer amp's headroom. Ed Mullen said that the gain knob has got nothing to do with headroom. One of them has to be wrong.

- My subwoofer triggers on as soon as I turn the receiver on as I use the 12V trigger so a trim of -12 would not be a problem.

My question to him was if there is anything wrong with setting the subwoofer trim to -12 and and having the gain close to max to compensate. Auto-on would not be an issue as I use the 12V trigger. The reason I asked is, because, like you alluded, a lower trim reduces the chance of clipping. And a trim of -12 would essentially bulletproof against this, or at least make it very unlikely. So I thought I'd ask whether there would be anything wrong with this approach.
Ferrari_1996 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply Subwoofers, Bass, and Transducers

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off