Comparing JTR Captivator 4000ULF and Rythmik FV25HP - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 587Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 281 Old 10-26-2019, 02:35 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
chucky7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Rancho Cucamonga, CA
Posts: 5,105
Mentioned: 334 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3886 Post(s)
Liked: 5476
Comparing JTR Captivator 4000ULF and Rythmik FV25HP

A fellow member asked me if I could store the Rythmik FV25HP for a couple weeks as he sorts out logistics. As a basshead, I jumped at the opportunity to play with the current flagship ported product from a top notch company. Though I have heard Rythmik ported subs a few times, I have never listened to one in my HT. Both Rythmik FV25HP and my JTR Captivator 4000ULF have been tested on Data-Bass and are quite popular among serious bassheads.

JTR Captivator 4000ULF -- Data-bass link
Rythmik FV25HP -- Data-bass link

Rythmik FV25HP (left) and JTR Captivator 4000ULF(right) side by side:



Depth comparison: Rythmik FV25HP (left) and JTR Captivator 4000ULF(right):


At 39.5", the cabinet of JTR Captivator 4000ULF (right) is much deeper than Rythmik FV25HP (left) at 22". Overall, the Rythmik is actually 24" due to the heat sink on the amp plate.

What a beauty! I really like the FV25HP's smooth matte black finish.



spyboy, darthray, SBuger and 16 others like this.

Speakers: L/C/R: JTR Noesis 212HT. Surrounds: Jamo C103, KEF Q100, Polk Audio RTiA3.
Subwoofer: JTR Captivator 4000ULF.
AVR: Denon AVR-X4400H. TV: Samsung UN75NU8000FXZA.
JTR Speakers Customer Appreciation Sale
FS: Jamo C103, KEF Q100 and Polk RTiA3

Last edited by chucky7; 10-26-2019 at 06:43 AM.
chucky7 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 281 Old 10-26-2019, 02:36 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
chucky7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Rancho Cucamonga, CA
Posts: 5,105
Mentioned: 334 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3886 Post(s)
Liked: 5476
My current HT:



I tried to measure the Rythmik FV25HP at where I had the JTR Captivator 4000ULF.



The key is to have the acoustic center at the exact same location.

I reran Audyssey with the following settings on the amp plate:
LFE in, Limiter On, PEQ Off, Lowpass filter @ AVR/12, Extension filter @ 12Hz low damping and Rumble filter: On.

I read that these settings provide the most tactile response (perhaps at the expense of extension).

Then I added 3dB to sub level and did the sub distance tweak. I did not change any settings for REW.

First, center channel Audyssey on (red) vs. Audyssey off (green):



The Rythmik FV25HP provided solid extension down to 11Hz in my room.

Sub only, Audyssey on (orange) vs. Audyssey off (blue):



Again, solid extension down to 11Hz.

Audyssey on, center (red) vs. sub only (orange):



Finally, main volume @ -8, center (black) vs. sub only (purple):


Speakers: L/C/R: JTR Noesis 212HT. Surrounds: Jamo C103, KEF Q100, Polk Audio RTiA3.
Subwoofer: JTR Captivator 4000ULF.
AVR: Denon AVR-X4400H. TV: Samsung UN75NU8000FXZA.
JTR Speakers Customer Appreciation Sale
FS: Jamo C103, KEF Q100 and Polk RTiA3

Last edited by chucky7; 10-27-2019 at 06:13 PM.
chucky7 is offline  
post #3 of 281 Old 10-26-2019, 02:36 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
chucky7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Rancho Cucamonga, CA
Posts: 5,105
Mentioned: 334 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3886 Post(s)
Liked: 5476
Next up is my JTR Captivator 4000ULF...

I reran Audyssey with LF Adjust at the minimum, then added 3dB to sub level. I also did the SBT. I started REW with the LF Adjust at the minimum. I will try to experiment with the LF Adjust to match the FR of the Rythmik FV25HP.

First, center channel Audyssey on (green) vs. Audyssey off (red):



Even without the help of the LF Adjust, I am getting solid single digit extension!

Sub only, Audyssey on (blue) vs. Audyssey off (orange):



Next, Audyssey on, center (green) vs. sub only (blue):



Finally, main volume @ -8, center (pink) vs. sub only (black):



Since the Captivator 4000ULF has the LF Adjust, let's see what it does:



There are 10 clicks in total, With the LF Adjust at maximum (black), it added 18dB at 10Hz, compared to the LF Adjust at minimum (blue). The hinge looks to be at 50Hz or so.

Speakers: L/C/R: JTR Noesis 212HT. Surrounds: Jamo C103, KEF Q100, Polk Audio RTiA3.
Subwoofer: JTR Captivator 4000ULF.
AVR: Denon AVR-X4400H. TV: Samsung UN75NU8000FXZA.
JTR Speakers Customer Appreciation Sale
FS: Jamo C103, KEF Q100 and Polk RTiA3

Last edited by chucky7; 10-26-2019 at 04:36 AM.
chucky7 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #4 of 281 Old 10-26-2019, 02:37 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
chucky7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Rancho Cucamonga, CA
Posts: 5,105
Mentioned: 334 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3886 Post(s)
Liked: 5476
Now let's compare their FRs...

Sub only, Audyssey on, FV25HP (orange) vs Cap 4000ULF (blue):



Holy crap, they are almost identical from 15~60Hz... The only difference is that the Cap 4000 is tuned to 10Hz vs 12Hz for the FV25HP.

Sub only, Audyssey off, FV25HP (blue) vs Cap 4000ULF (orange):



MV @ -8dB, Sub only, Audyssey on, FV25HP (pink) vs Cap 4000ULF (black):



Again, very similar from 15~50Hz...

Hmmm, this got me thinking... Maybe when I do the subjective listening I can cheat a little bit - connect one sub at a time and use the Audyssey for both subs, provided that I have them at the same location...

Speakers: L/C/R: JTR Noesis 212HT. Surrounds: Jamo C103, KEF Q100, Polk Audio RTiA3.
Subwoofer: JTR Captivator 4000ULF.
AVR: Denon AVR-X4400H. TV: Samsung UN75NU8000FXZA.
JTR Speakers Customer Appreciation Sale
FS: Jamo C103, KEF Q100 and Polk RTiA3

Last edited by chucky7; 10-26-2019 at 06:54 AM.
chucky7 is offline  
post #5 of 281 Old 10-26-2019, 03:03 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
jamiebosco's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,582
Mentioned: 30 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 984 Post(s)
Liked: 2581
wow...you lucky dog!!...I wish someone would ask me to mind their $2500 subwoofer!!!

Can't wait to hear your thoughts mate. hopefully with lots of REW graphs

Would be interesting to see if you get an even smoother FR running 1 sub on each side of the screen

Would be cool to see a sweep (at a low MV level of course) with one port plugged on the Rythmik to drop tuning down to 9-10Hz to get a similar port tune to the 4k
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...l#post56198132
Quote:
here is another secret but I wouldn't recommend this to everybody, though. If you plug one port on the FV25HP, the port tune goes down to 10Hz (maybe 9Hz) which will increase a bit more the tactile response. In your case is safe to do it because you are running 3 x FV25HPs in a 1700 cuft room so plenty of headroom. In other cases, it's not recommended. That's why we decided to not supply the FV25HP with port plug. Again, if you plug the port and play EoT, "TURN ON RUMBLE FILTER".

In case you can't tell - I'm jealous as hell!
have fun man, will subscribe to this thread!
chucky7, darthray, imureh and 2 others like this.

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
TV: Panasonic 65" P65ST60 AVR: Denon AVR-X4000 Speakers: PSA MTM-210C (Centre), PSA MTM-210 (Left & Right), PSA MT-110 (Surrounds) Subwoofers: Seaton SubMersives x 3
jamiebosco is offline  
post #6 of 281 Old 10-26-2019, 08:09 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
imureh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 5,497
Mentioned: 283 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3465 Post(s)
Liked: 4677
Excellent start Chucky and very cool. So far results seem to be in line with what I would expect. Listening impressions could be another story. Hope you can do the VibSensor test as well. Just need the app and the 5lb bag of rice.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
chucky7 and jamiebosco like this.

Subwoofers: Dual Rythmik FV18s Rev2 with Paper cone, BOSS Platform mini riser, 2 BK LFE
Speakers: PSA MTM-210 L/C/R - Klipsch 250S Surrounds, PSA MT 110sr Rear Surrounds, 4 x SVS Prime Elevation for Atmos
Video: Epson PowerLite Home Cinema 6500 UB; Room: 2100 cuft sealed on suspended floor
Receiver & Players: Denon X4400H, Oppo UDP-203, Roku Ultra. Apple TV, Minidsp 2X4 HD
imureh is online now  
post #7 of 281 Old 10-26-2019, 08:16 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
tvuong's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 5,889
Mentioned: 108 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2937 Post(s)
Liked: 2980
Chucky, thanks for the efforts and graphs. If you flip it to hi damping, it should extend a couple hertz lower. Give that a try (and a listen) and post hi damping graph if it is not too much trouble. Once you calibrated with 12hz low damping which is the right way to do, you can flip that damping switch without having to recal.
tvuong is online now  
post #8 of 281 Old 10-26-2019, 08:18 AM
Senior Member
 
toddct's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 495
Mentioned: 56 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 328 Post(s)
Liked: 978
Nice start buddy! Looking forward to the rest of the story!

Todd
chucky7 likes this.

“People say nothing is impossible, but I do nothing every day.”― A.A. Milne, Winnie-the-Pooh
toddct is offline  
post #9 of 281 Old 10-27-2019, 12:31 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Hopinater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Central VA
Posts: 7,267
Mentioned: 106 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3840 Post(s)
Liked: 12923
Very cool Chucky. You did a nice job with the measurements and I'm looking forward to your listening impressions. Have fun with those two beasts.

Subwoofers: PSA TV36 iPal X2 ...Speakers: PSA MTM-210T L/R - PSA MTM-210C Center- PSA MT110SR's Surrounds - RSL C34E Atmos... Motion Actuators: Crowson Shadow 8 - X2
Video: Samsung UN65KS9000 4K SUHD - Oppo UDP-203... AVR:Denon X4400... Gaming: XBOX ONE S

Guide to Subwoofer Calibration and Bass Preferences
Hopinater is offline  
post #10 of 281 Old 10-27-2019, 04:45 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
chucky7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Rancho Cucamonga, CA
Posts: 5,105
Mentioned: 334 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3886 Post(s)
Liked: 5476






It's a slippery slope I tell ya! The bass growth must go on...

bulls and I had a mini shoot out session. He also brought over his Seaton F18+ master and slave combo...

bulls has not heard any Rythmik offerings. He wanted to find out just how close a ported Rythmik's SQ is to a sealed sub, and so do I. The last time I heard a sealed sub is when Marc brought over his PSA S3010 in 2017. When bulls offered to lug his Seaton F18+ subs over, I gladly obliged. Are you kidding me? To be able to listen to flagship subs from 3 top ID companies is the chance of a life time!

Talk about bass heaven! That was an eye opening experience!!!

Speakers: L/C/R: JTR Noesis 212HT. Surrounds: Jamo C103, KEF Q100, Polk Audio RTiA3.
Subwoofer: JTR Captivator 4000ULF.
AVR: Denon AVR-X4400H. TV: Samsung UN75NU8000FXZA.
JTR Speakers Customer Appreciation Sale
FS: Jamo C103, KEF Q100 and Polk RTiA3

Last edited by chucky7; 10-28-2019 at 07:02 AM.
chucky7 is offline  
post #11 of 281 Old 10-27-2019, 04:56 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Hopinater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Central VA
Posts: 7,267
Mentioned: 106 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3840 Post(s)
Liked: 12923
Wow... there's a ton of fire power from big name top of the line subwoofer manufacturers in your living space. That had to be absolutely awesome!
chucky7, serith and darthray like this.

Subwoofers: PSA TV36 iPal X2 ...Speakers: PSA MTM-210T L/R - PSA MTM-210C Center- PSA MT110SR's Surrounds - RSL C34E Atmos... Motion Actuators: Crowson Shadow 8 - X2
Video: Samsung UN65KS9000 4K SUHD - Oppo UDP-203... AVR:Denon X4400... Gaming: XBOX ONE S

Guide to Subwoofer Calibration and Bass Preferences
Hopinater is offline  
post #12 of 281 Old 10-27-2019, 05:12 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
atabea's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,800
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 884 Post(s)
Liked: 719
Quote:
Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
bulls and I had a mini shoot out session. He also brought over his Seaton F18+...

The bass growth must go on...







Talk about bass heaven! That was a lot of fun!!!
Wish I could have been part of that experience! Did you take any measurements of the F18s? Sure would be great to see how they compare to the Rythmiks and the JTRs in that regard.
chucky7 likes this.
atabea is offline  
post #13 of 281 Old 10-27-2019, 05:20 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
imureh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 5,497
Mentioned: 283 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3465 Post(s)
Liked: 4677
Quote:
Originally Posted by atabea View Post
Wish I could have been part of that experience! Did you take any measurements of the F18s? Sure would be great to see how they compare to the Rythmiks and the JTRs in that regard.


It’s a shame that instead of the FV25HP we do not have the FV28 then you could have a all 18 inch sub comparison. Oh well I guess we can use the FV25HP as a proxy.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
chucky7, darthray and atabea like this.

Subwoofers: Dual Rythmik FV18s Rev2 with Paper cone, BOSS Platform mini riser, 2 BK LFE
Speakers: PSA MTM-210 L/C/R - Klipsch 250S Surrounds, PSA MT 110sr Rear Surrounds, 4 x SVS Prime Elevation for Atmos
Video: Epson PowerLite Home Cinema 6500 UB; Room: 2100 cuft sealed on suspended floor
Receiver & Players: Denon X4400H, Oppo UDP-203, Roku Ultra. Apple TV, Minidsp 2X4 HD
imureh is online now  
post #14 of 281 Old 10-27-2019, 05:24 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
atabea's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,800
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 884 Post(s)
Liked: 719
Quote:
Originally Posted by imureh View Post
It’s a shame that instead of the FV25HP we do not have the FV28 then you could have a all 18 inch sub comparison. Oh well I guess we can use the FV25HP as a proxy.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Now THAT would be a recipe for structural damage to Chucky's house.
darthray and drh3b like this.
atabea is offline  
post #15 of 281 Old 10-27-2019, 06:20 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
chucky7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Rancho Cucamonga, CA
Posts: 5,105
Mentioned: 334 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3886 Post(s)
Liked: 5476
Quote:
Originally Posted by atabea View Post
Wish I could have been part of that experience! Did you take any measurements of the F18s? Sure would be great to see how they compare to the Rythmiks and the JTRs in that regard.
We adjusted the F18+ and Cap 4000ULF's gain and LF Adjust to try to match the subs FR. With the Audyssey off, this is what we got:



Subwoofer settings:

Rythmik FV25HP: LFE in, Limiter On, PEQ Off, Lowpass filter @ AVR/12, Extension filter @ 12Hz low damping and Rumble filter: On. Gain @ 2 o'clock.
Seaton F18+ Master and Slave: Gain @ 7 clicks out of 10, LF Adjust at 4 clicks out of 10.
JTR Captivator 4000ULF: Gain @ 4 clicks out of 20, LF Adjust @ 0 click out of 10.

In post 2 and 3 of this thread, I placed the subs between the right and center channel.

The above FRs were measured with the subs at a different location. This location allows me to put 2 subs side by side and quickly switch cables for comparison. We listened with the Audyssey off.

Speakers: L/C/R: JTR Noesis 212HT. Surrounds: Jamo C103, KEF Q100, Polk Audio RTiA3.
Subwoofer: JTR Captivator 4000ULF.
AVR: Denon AVR-X4400H. TV: Samsung UN75NU8000FXZA.
JTR Speakers Customer Appreciation Sale
FS: Jamo C103, KEF Q100 and Polk RTiA3

Last edited by chucky7; 10-30-2019 at 11:28 AM.
chucky7 is offline  
post #16 of 281 Old 10-27-2019, 06:22 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
MKtheater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: New Hartford, NY
Posts: 19,147
Mentioned: 145 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2724 Post(s)
Liked: 3162
Quote:
Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
Next up is my JTR Captivator 4000ULF...

Since the Captivator 4000ULF has the LF Adjust, let's see what it does:



There are 10 clicks in total, With the LF Adjust at maximum (black), it added 18dB at 10Hz, compared to the LF Adjust at minimum (blue). The hinge looks to be at 50Hz or so.
That is close to the effect my room has, never mind any boost.

Building the room, speakers, and subs.
MKtheater is offline  
post #17 of 281 Old 10-27-2019, 06:59 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
enricoclaudio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 6,245
Mentioned: 326 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4274 Post(s)
Liked: 5606
Quote:
Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
We adjusted the F18+ and Cap 4000ULF's gain and LF Adjust to try to match the subs FR. This is what we got:



Subwoofer settings:

Rythmik FV25HP: LFE in, Limiter On, PEQ Off, Lowpass filter @ AVR/12, Extension filter @ 12Hz low damping and Rumble filter: On. Gain @ 2 o'clock.
Seaton F18+ Master and Slave: Gain @ 7 clicks out of 10, LF Adjust at 4 clicks out of 10.
JTR Captivator 4000ULF: Gain @ 3 clicks out of 10, LF Adjust @ 0 click out of 10.
@chucky7 , just so you know. The Lowpass filter switch has no effect when LFE IN is used. If you can, set the Damping on High to see how low the FV25HP goes in your room. It should give you a couple of Hz more down low.
serith and jamiebosco like this.

Enrico Castagnetti @ Rythmik Audio - Dialing In Rythmik Audio Subwoofers - REW for macOS
Media Room: Sierra Towers w/RAAL, Horizon w/RAAL, Sierra 2s & Lunas | Rythmik G22 (x2) + FV25HP | Denon X6500H | Panny 820 + ATV 4K | Bluesound Node 2 | Sony 77A9G OLED |
Desktop: Dynaudio BM5 mkIII | Rythmik L22 | Apogee Quartet | 27" iMac| Bedroom: B&W 685 S2 | Rythmik LVX12 | Marantz SR6013 | Sony X700 + ATV 4K | Sony XBR-65Z9D |
enricoclaudio is offline  
post #18 of 281 Old 10-28-2019, 06:12 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
chucky7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Rancho Cucamonga, CA
Posts: 5,105
Mentioned: 334 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3886 Post(s)
Liked: 5476
I re-calibrated with the DUT at the measurement spot with the aforementioned settings. Below are the FRs with Audyssey on:



FV25HP Low Damping: Measured @ Low Damping.

FV25HP High Damping: Measured @ High Damping.

JTR Cap 4000ULF: Gain @ 4 clicks out of 20, LF Adjust @ 0 click.

There is not much difference in FV25HP's extension between low and high damping. The low damping setting produced up to 3dB more output @12~25Hz. Interesting enough, Audyssey again lifted below 10Hz for the 4000ULF...
Adamg (Ret-Navy) likes this.

Speakers: L/C/R: JTR Noesis 212HT. Surrounds: Jamo C103, KEF Q100, Polk Audio RTiA3.
Subwoofer: JTR Captivator 4000ULF.
AVR: Denon AVR-X4400H. TV: Samsung UN75NU8000FXZA.
JTR Speakers Customer Appreciation Sale
FS: Jamo C103, KEF Q100 and Polk RTiA3

Last edited by chucky7; 10-30-2019 at 11:28 AM.
chucky7 is offline  
post #19 of 281 Old 10-28-2019, 06:50 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
tvuong's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 5,889
Mentioned: 108 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2937 Post(s)
Liked: 2980
^^Strange that in your room, Hi Damping on the FV25 does not extend lower. Measurements aside, any more detail listening impressions? Perhaps, @bulls can chime in also?
tvuong is online now  
post #20 of 281 Old 10-28-2019, 08:43 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
bulls's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: L.A.
Posts: 1,238
Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 286 Post(s)
Liked: 194
even tho they measured very similar on the REW
at -10 to -8 in certain situations, the FV25HP had less 'power'/'presence' , my 2 F18s sounded very similar to the 4000

just guessing - with most audio tracks at 'regular volume' like -15 or lower, in the appropriate room, i would have difficulty discerning which sub it is

at -7 my F18s would be close to reaching their limit, but the JTR 4000 had a whole lotta pounding left to give ... Chucky7 turned on/increased the JTRness knob and ... yeah ... cant match that output of this beast, tornado wind output and all...

display - vizio p65
AVR x4300h +lepai 2ch amp = 7.2.4
L/C/R - Chane 2.4, SURROUND - dayton 3in cubes *temporary
BASS - 2x Seaton F18 + JTR 1400 "the wind machine" (not port noise)
2100 ft^3
bulls is offline  
post #21 of 281 Old 10-28-2019, 08:54 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
atabea's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,800
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 884 Post(s)
Liked: 719
Quote:
Originally Posted by bulls View Post
even tho they measured very similar on the REW
at -10 to -8 in certain situations, the FV25HP had less 'power'/'presence' , my 2 F18s sounded very similar to the 4000

just guessing - with most audio tracks at 'regular volume' like -15 or lower, in the appropriate room, i would have difficulty discerning which sub it is

at -7 my F18s would be close to reaching their limit, but the JTR 4000 had a whole lotta pounding left to give ... Chucky7 turned on/increased the JTRness knob and ... yeah ... cant match that output of this beast, tornado wind output and all...
SPL capabilities notwithstanding, in terms of sound quality/signature, how would you describe the three combatants?
atabea is offline  
post #22 of 281 Old 10-28-2019, 09:33 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
MKtheater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: New Hartford, NY
Posts: 19,147
Mentioned: 145 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2724 Post(s)
Liked: 3162
Of course the ported vs sealed had more output, that is expected. I like to think of sealed vs ported as put as many drivers on the same size box as the ported cab and then compare, yeah it costs more but filling the cabs with more driver rather than a port gets you increase spl everywhere, not just around port tune. It seems chucky turned it up past where the others can play, this is obvious that the 4000 can play louder, the question should be at reference or normal listening levels can you tell them apart. Can all achieve normal listening levels? If so, than what is the difference, if not, that makes the 4000 more valuable to the person that listens louder than what the others can handle.
jamiebosco, atabea and BassMojo like this.

Building the room, speakers, and subs.
MKtheater is offline  
post #23 of 281 Old 10-29-2019, 01:15 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
chucky7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Rancho Cucamonga, CA
Posts: 5,105
Mentioned: 334 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3886 Post(s)
Liked: 5476
We first level matched the subs (-10 dBFS on REW, MV @ -10dB = -20 dB) then proceeded to listening with MV @ -8dB. The MV and the sub's gains remain unchanged through out the shoot out.

We listened in the following order:
1. Rythmik FV25HP in Low Damping.
2. JTR Cap 4000ULF (LF Adjust @ 0/10)
3. Seaton F18+ combo (LF Adjust @ 4/10)
4. Rythmik FV25HP in Low Damping.
5. Seaton F18+ combo (LF Adjust @ 4/10)
6. JTR Cap 4000ULF (LF Adjust @ 0/10)
7. JTR Cap 4000ULF (LF Adjust @ 5/10)
8. JTR Cap 4000ULF (LF Adjust @ 10/10)
Adamg (Ret-Navy) likes this.

Speakers: L/C/R: JTR Noesis 212HT. Surrounds: Jamo C103, KEF Q100, Polk Audio RTiA3.
Subwoofer: JTR Captivator 4000ULF.
AVR: Denon AVR-X4400H. TV: Samsung UN75NU8000FXZA.
JTR Speakers Customer Appreciation Sale
FS: Jamo C103, KEF Q100 and Polk RTiA3

Last edited by chucky7; 10-29-2019 at 07:05 AM.
chucky7 is offline  
post #24 of 281 Old 10-29-2019, 02:25 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
chucky7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Rancho Cucamonga, CA
Posts: 5,105
Mentioned: 334 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3886 Post(s)
Liked: 5476
Quote:
Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
^^Strange that in your room, Hi Damping on the FV25 does not extend lower. Measurements aside, any more detail listening impressions? Perhaps, @bulls can chime in also?
Uh, nope. The measurements in my room pretty much echo what Data-Bass tested:

Data-Bass:


My room:

Adamg (Ret-Navy) likes this.

Speakers: L/C/R: JTR Noesis 212HT. Surrounds: Jamo C103, KEF Q100, Polk Audio RTiA3.
Subwoofer: JTR Captivator 4000ULF.
AVR: Denon AVR-X4400H. TV: Samsung UN75NU8000FXZA.
JTR Speakers Customer Appreciation Sale
FS: Jamo C103, KEF Q100 and Polk RTiA3
chucky7 is offline  
post #25 of 281 Old 10-29-2019, 04:06 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
chucky7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Rancho Cucamonga, CA
Posts: 5,105
Mentioned: 334 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3886 Post(s)
Liked: 5476
In terms of SQ, there isn't much difference. Heck, we are talking about 3 flagship products!

I compared the THD of FV25HP and Cap 4000ULF's MV -8dB FRs from the 26th. From 16~40Hz, both subs were between 1.5~3% THD. In fact, the spectrogram and Waterfall graphs from 10~200Hz are very similar.

The sound signature is another story. I immediately noticed that the FV25HP sounded different from what I am used to when I was re-running Audyssey. The subwoofer test tones were higher pitched. I noticed this again when I verified loudness with the SPL meter and tone generator in REW.

We used Olympic Has Fallen - Washington Monument scene, World War Z - Grenade scene and Justin Bieber - Baby MV for the shoot out.

During the bass demo clips, bulls noticed that the FV25HP's drivers were barely moving. In Justin Bieber - Baby MV, bulls pointed out that the bass from the FV25HP was missing something. The bass just sounded fuller and had more presence from the Cap 4000ULF (LF Adjust @ 0/10).

We were expecting the sound signature to go back to 'sealed like' when we switched over to the Seaton F18 combo (LF Adjust @ 4/10). That didn't happen. The Seaton F18+ combo and the Cap 4000ULF sounded more similar than different. It also had a fuller sound and the presence. In fact, if not for the 4000ULF's port wind, we might not have been able to tell them apart. I was very impressed with the Seaton F18+ combo. I think bulls was happier because he has the Seaton F18+ combo and the Cap 1400 in his HT.

After we switched back to the Cap 4000ULF (LF Adjust @ 0/10), bulls turned to me and said...



So I let it loose and turned up the Cap 4000ULF's LF Adjust.

It's alive!!! We marveled at the TR and port wind!!!
serith, bulls, SuperFist and 5 others like this.

Speakers: L/C/R: JTR Noesis 212HT. Surrounds: Jamo C103, KEF Q100, Polk Audio RTiA3.
Subwoofer: JTR Captivator 4000ULF.
AVR: Denon AVR-X4400H. TV: Samsung UN75NU8000FXZA.
JTR Speakers Customer Appreciation Sale
FS: Jamo C103, KEF Q100 and Polk RTiA3

Last edited by chucky7; 10-29-2019 at 07:08 AM.
chucky7 is offline  
post #26 of 281 Old 10-29-2019, 05:36 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
chucky7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Rancho Cucamonga, CA
Posts: 5,105
Mentioned: 334 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3886 Post(s)
Liked: 5476
VibSensor graphs from 27th, FV25HP @ low damping level matched with Captivator 4000ULF @ LF Adjust @ 0 click:

FV25HP High Damping:



FV25HP Low Damping:



JTR Cap 4000ULF with LF Adjust @ 0 click:



JTR Cap 4000ULF with LF Adjust @ 3 clicks:



JTR Cap 4000ULF with LF Adjust @ 6 clicks:



JTR Cap 4000ULF with LF Adjust @ 10 clicks:

Adamg (Ret-Navy) likes this.

Speakers: L/C/R: JTR Noesis 212HT. Surrounds: Jamo C103, KEF Q100, Polk Audio RTiA3.
Subwoofer: JTR Captivator 4000ULF.
AVR: Denon AVR-X4400H. TV: Samsung UN75NU8000FXZA.
JTR Speakers Customer Appreciation Sale
FS: Jamo C103, KEF Q100 and Polk RTiA3
chucky7 is offline  
post #27 of 281 Old 10-29-2019, 05:50 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
imureh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 5,497
Mentioned: 283 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3465 Post(s)
Liked: 4677
Quote:
Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
We first level matched the subs (-10 dBFS on REW, MV @ -10dB = -20 dB) then proceeded to listening with MV @ -8dB. The MV and the sub's gains remained through out the shoot out.

We listened in the following order:
1. Rythmik FV25HP in Low Damping.
2. JTR Cap 4000ULF (LF Adjust @ 0/10)
3. Seaton F18+ combo (LF Adjust @ 4/10)
4. Rythmik FV25HP in Low Damping.
5. Seaton F18+ combo (LF Adjust @ 4/10)
6. JTR Cap 4000ULF (LF Adjust @ 0/10)
7. JTR Cap 4000ULF (LF Adjust @ 5/10)
8. JTR Cap 4000ULF (LF Adjust @ 10/10)
Hey Chucky, this is good stuff man....to me the findings are what I would have expected. The comparison we did with the 2400 ULF and FV25HP, the gap was closer as expected. The Cap was more violent so not surprised the 4000 takes it to another level. The servo does limit driver excursion as I see that on my FV18s too so again would not have expected the drivers to be moving much on the FV25HP. The driver excursion on the JTR is a marvel for sure. I am curious if you found similarities in the driver characteristics between the Cap and the F18? Could that explain the similar sound signature? Even the 118 did not sound like the 2400 ULF...I did also find that the JTR subs (besides the 118) had a very different tone when running Audy. Audy also set the distance for the JTR subs the highest....interesting stuff guys...I bet you had a blast
chucky7 likes this.

Subwoofers: Dual Rythmik FV18s Rev2 with Paper cone, BOSS Platform mini riser, 2 BK LFE
Speakers: PSA MTM-210 L/C/R - Klipsch 250S Surrounds, PSA MT 110sr Rear Surrounds, 4 x SVS Prime Elevation for Atmos
Video: Epson PowerLite Home Cinema 6500 UB; Room: 2100 cuft sealed on suspended floor
Receiver & Players: Denon X4400H, Oppo UDP-203, Roku Ultra. Apple TV, Minidsp 2X4 HD
imureh is online now  
post #28 of 281 Old 10-29-2019, 06:10 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
chucky7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Rancho Cucamonga, CA
Posts: 5,105
Mentioned: 334 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3886 Post(s)
Liked: 5476
Quote:
Originally Posted by imureh View Post
Hey Chucky, this is good stuff man....to me the findings are what I would have expected. The comparison we did with the 2400 ULF and FV25HP, the gap was closer as expected. The Cap was more violent so not surprised the 4000 takes it to another level. The servo does limit driver excursion as I see that on my FV18s too so again would not have expected the drivers to be moving much on the FV25HP. The driver excursion on the JTR is a marvel for sure. I am curious if you found similarities in the driver characteristics between the Cap and the F18? Could that explain the similar sound signature? Even the 118 did not sound like the 2400 ULF...I did also find that the JTR subs (besides the 118) had a very different tone when running Audy. Audy also set the distance for the JTR subs the highest....interesting stuff guys...I bet you had a blast
Thanks!

It's very interesting. Before hearing them, if I had to bet, I would say that the F18's DA UM18-22 18" Ultimax driver would be closer to the FV25HP drivers. They both have ~20mm X-Max.

During Audyssey, the subwoofer test tones from the FV25HP were much higher pitched than from the Cap 4000ULF. Audyssey set the FV25HP's sub distance at 11.4 ft. I didn't have to change the distance as this yielded the smoothest FR around 80Hz. On the other hand, Audyssey set the Cap 4000's sub distance at 18.2 ft. I changed it to 20.2 ft to get the smoothest FR around 80Hz.
Adamg (Ret-Navy) likes this.

Speakers: L/C/R: JTR Noesis 212HT. Surrounds: Jamo C103, KEF Q100, Polk Audio RTiA3.
Subwoofer: JTR Captivator 4000ULF.
AVR: Denon AVR-X4400H. TV: Samsung UN75NU8000FXZA.
JTR Speakers Customer Appreciation Sale
FS: Jamo C103, KEF Q100 and Polk RTiA3

Last edited by chucky7; 10-30-2019 at 11:30 AM.
chucky7 is offline  
post #29 of 281 Old 10-29-2019, 06:48 AM
Advanced Member
 
jsc79's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 905
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 557 Post(s)
Liked: 804
Awesome thread! Thanks for all of the work!
chucky7 likes this.
jsc79 is online now  
post #30 of 281 Old 10-29-2019, 07:09 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
tvuong's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 5,889
Mentioned: 108 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2937 Post(s)
Liked: 2980
Good stuffs

Quote:
Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
Uh, nope. The measurements in my room pretty much echo what Data-Bass tested:
Data-Bass:


My room:
Perhaps, @Rythmik and/or @enricoclaudio can explain this behavior. The Hi Damping on my FV15 does extend a couple hz lower in my room due to shallower roll off as compared to low D


Quote:
Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
In terms of SQ, there isn't much difference. Heck, we are talking about 3 flagship products!
The sound signature is another story. I immediately noticed that the FV25HP sounded different from what I am used to when I was re-running Audyssey. The subwoofer test tones were higher pitched. I noticed this again when I verified loudness with the SPL meter and tone generator in REW.
To me, the SQ is different between the FV25 and the 2400ULF when I heard them in Todd's room. The 4000ULF sounds more like two 2400ULFs when I heard it in your room. The FV25 sounds very lean/fast/tight and does not cause attention to itself which probably is the 'less power/presence' @bulls mentioned whereas the 4000ULF or any JTR subs (for that matter) has a in your face fuller sound attention. If you read the @imureh 's thread https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...ssions-15.html, you will find this was what I said when I heard the fv25 and the 24000ULF. Others who heard the two subs also echoed what I said. Everyone at the Houston GTG also noticed that the 2400ulf had a different chirp when running Audyssey. That was my only one time hearing the Audyssey chirp between two different subs. Todd, Ray and some others can chime in as they have heard more Audyssey chirps between different subs than I do.
tvuong is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply Subwoofers, Bass, and Transducers

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off