18 inch sub - Seaton/Funk/JTR/PSA - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 113 Old 11-07-2019, 09:09 AM - Thread Starter
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18 inch sub - Seaton/Funk/JTR/PSA

So i’ve been debating getting dual 18 inch subs - it looks like there are a lot of great options just released or coming out shortly.

Between the Funk 18.0e, JTR RS1, Seaton F18 (master and slave) and PSA 1812 are there going to be big/noticeable differences, or is it really “pick one”?
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post #2 of 113 Old 11-07-2019, 09:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madhuski View Post
So i’ve been debating getting dual 18 inch subs - it looks like there are a lot of great options just released or coming out shortly.

Between the Funk 18.0e, JTR RS1, Seaton F18 (master and slave) and PSA 1812 are there going to be big/noticeable differences, or is it really “pick one”?
Those are all fine choices IMO, why is Rythmik not on your list?
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post #3 of 113 Old 11-07-2019, 09:43 AM
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I am going in circles over the same thing. I love my current setup, but have the itch to try a different lower tune sub.

I see you are looking at switching back to sealed from your current JTR-118 if my memory serves me correct? I would probably take a hard look at the PSA S3012 as well and perhaps the Rythmik F18.

Honestly there are soo many good choices.
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post #4 of 113 Old 11-07-2019, 09:49 AM
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The new Funk or JTR would be my picks
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post #5 of 113 Old 11-07-2019, 10:11 AM
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They all have great subs to choose from and so does Rhythmik so I would add them to the list as well.

I can tell you the bass quality of all your choices will be great but to answer your question... YES, there will be differences that you will notice. So I would probably think hard about the following things:

1. Sound Signature. What kind of bass you want. For instance... right now there is a thread discussing the sound differences between JTR and Rhythmic.
2. How much money you want to spend.
3. Customer Service. There is a wide range between the different companies. Some are phenomenal, some are good and some are slow (or not at all).
4. Quality and type of finishes.
5. How long you want to wait to have your sub shipped.

All the companies make great products but they do differ from one another in all of those categories. Choose wisely according to your desires.

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post #6 of 113 Old 11-07-2019, 11:24 AM
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Originally Posted by jamiebosco View Post
The new Funk or JTR would be my picks
Why not Seaton? and I do not need you to reply
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post #7 of 113 Old 11-07-2019, 01:33 PM - Thread Starter
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@imureh Just forgot about Rythmik, tbh. But adding them just complicates things further - as basshead said, just so many good choices right now you can get stuck in analysis parlaysis....

@basshead81 I thought about the 3012, but if I'm going to do duals a smaller footprint would work much better. Plus, chatting with Tom he was styeering me toward the 1812 with my usage (moderate, no where near reference volumes)


but, if you were to tease out cost, fit/finish, customer service etc.....for pure performance which would you guys pick?

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post #8 of 113 Old 11-07-2019, 01:43 PM
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but, if you were to tease out cost, fit/finish, customer service etc.....for pure performance which would you guys pick?
That one is easy for me, I would go with the S1812 simply because I have a S1801 and I really like it's performance. Plus I have the TV36 iPal and I love the sound signature of the B&C Neo drivers. So the S1812 would combine the awesome sound of the B&C drivers with the performance of the S1801. Not to mention the efficiency of the Neo driver will add quite a bit more performance to the S1812 over the S1801 I own.
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post #9 of 113 Old 11-07-2019, 03:07 PM
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Originally Posted by madhuski View Post
@imureh Just forgot about Rythmik, tbh. But adding them just complicates things further - as basshead said, just so many good choices right now you can get stuck in analysis parlaysis....

@basshead81 I thought about the 3012, but if I'm going to do duals a smaller footprint would work much better. Plus, chatting with Tom he was styeering me toward the 1812 with my usage (moderate, no where near reference volumes)


but, if you were to tease out cost, fit/finish, customer service etc.....for pure performance which would you guys pick?

Hi,

I'm not one of the two you were asking, but please let me try to confuse things further. Even if you listen at moderate volume levels, as most of us do, that doesn't mean that you won't miss having a fairly powerful ported subwoofer once it is gone. That would be much more important for movies/TV than it would be for most music, though.

Listening levels don't tell us everything about what we want from our subwoofers. Most of us boost our bass a bit (or a lot) even at moderate master volume levels, and ported subs will be much more capable below about 35Hz than equally competent sealed subs will be. Coming from a ported sub now, you may find that you really miss the <35Hz difference in overall bass weight and in special effects. You may also find that you miss the low-bass tactile response that you are currently getting from your Cap 118.

In reading your first post, and the follow-up, I don't get any sense of why you want to switch to different subs. Are you dissatisfied with the sound quality of your Cap 118, or it something else? Even though Jeff doesn't show Cap 118's on his website anymore, I'm fairly sure that he would make another one for a current customer. So, if you just want dual subs, that would be an option.

Perhaps you are looking to chase lower frequencies as basshead is. That also doesn't have much to do with your listening level. If so, then I would be looking at ported subwoofers with lower tuning points, such as the FV18HP, if you want to stay with 18" subs as you say in your thread title.

Of course, you may just be curious about trying a couple of sealed subs instead of your current ported sub. FWIW, I see more people migrate from sealed to ported than from ported to sealed. That doesn't mean that you won't end-up preferring sealed subs, despite the things I noted in my second paragraph. But, in that case, I would be careful about making sure that I had more subwoofer capability than I thought I would need. There really will be important differences below 35Hz, and you will need to push your sealed subs harder to enjoy the same low-bass special effects you are used to.

One good thing about sealed subs is the smaller footprint, so that would open-up a pretty wide range of options. As for which specific make and model of subwoofer to target, I think that if you define your goals a little more clearly, along with your reasons for migrating from your Cap 118, you will get better advice. I hope this helps!

Regards,
Mike
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post #10 of 113 Old 11-07-2019, 03:31 PM
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If I were looking for sealed, those would all be on my list. Seeing as though Jamie can't get a replacement sub from Seaton, I would reconsider his stuff on my list. That being said, you might also consider the G25 along with the 3012.

Agree with Mike's comment and question.............what are you chasing? Let us know some more specifics. Since these are all great performers then it really does come down to specifics to make a decision.

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post #11 of 113 Old 11-07-2019, 03:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madhuski View Post
So i’ve been debating getting dual 18 inch subs - it looks like there are a lot of great options just released or coming out shortly.

Between the Funk 18.0e, JTR RS1, Seaton F18 (master and slave) and PSA 1812 are there going to be big/noticeable differences, or is it really “pick one”?
Any aesthetic requirements? Funk will be the best looking if that matters. All good choices though including rythmik. For Rythmik the F25 would also be a great choice with a fairly minimal footprint.

For me customer service would play a very important part in the decision.
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post #12 of 113 Old 11-07-2019, 03:57 PM
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There are also the Rythmik/Salk subs which steps up aesthetics with Rythmik guts (not 100% sure that includes 18"). Very nice option to consider depending on time line if 18" are included.
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post #13 of 113 Old 11-07-2019, 04:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks guys -

@mthomas47 @toddct
I've got the 118 and have been happy with it. But, all the talk of lower tuned subs has got me thinking if I can get lower extension. I did ask Jeff, and he can make a sub tuned like the 118, but my understanding is that would just increase my output, not extension. I'd love one of the giant monsters (4000ulf, FV18, TV36ipal) but they're just too large and heavy for my liking and for my wife's taste (these are going into a living room). My options are either 1 sub around the size of a JTR 2400/118/1400 cabinet (the 2400ulf is probably too tall) are two smaller subs. (the spot where the second sub would go would be a challenge WAF wise to fit another 118). That's what got me focused on the ones I listed. I figured/assumed they would have enough output given my listening levels while getting more extension.

Re: the 3012 - duals would be out. Ditto the G25.




@Kini62 Only WAF rule is no fridge sized subs. Otherwise even the standard JTR/PSA finish is in play. Obviously a nicer one is preferable, but I'm going to let sound be the #1 factor


@indebtbassfreak I've spoked to Jim in the past about his subs. Only thing is with all the braacing he does, his subs are quite a bit heavier than the standard Rythmik.
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post #14 of 113 Old 11-07-2019, 05:27 PM
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^^ I know you said 18” but with size constraint and low tuned sub requirement, I would try the new 15” JTR 1200xs, two of these, that is or a pair of the Rythmik fv15hps.
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post #15 of 113 Old 11-07-2019, 05:32 PM
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Originally Posted by madhuski View Post
Thanks guys -

@mthomas47 @toddct
I've got the 118 and have been happy with it. But, all the talk of lower tuned subs has got me thinking if I can get lower extension. I did ask Jeff, and he can make a sub tuned like the 118, but my understanding is that would just increase my output, not extension. I'd love one of the giant monsters (4000ulf, FV18, TV36ipal) but they're just too large and heavy for my liking and for my wife's taste (these are going into a living room). My options are either 1 sub around the size of a JTR 2400/118/1400 cabinet (the 2400ulf is probably too tall) are two smaller subs. (the spot where the second sub would go would be a challenge WAF wise to fit another 118). That's what got me focused on the ones I listed. I figured/assumed they would have enough output given my listening levels while getting more extension.

Re: the 3012 - duals would be out. Ditto the G25.

I think I have a little better understanding now, of what you are after. Given your objective for more low-frequency response, and the size constraints, I would recommend a single Cap 2400. As you know, it is only 30" tall. It would give you a lot more low-frequency SPL and low-bass tactile response, than what you are getting now, and the LFA feature would help you to generate a low-bass house curve.

The problem with buying sealed subs to try to replicate the very low-frequency SPL and TR of something like the Cap 2400, is that it can take a lot of them. Below 20Hz, it can take up to three comparable sealed models, and below 15Hz, it can take about four. With two sufficiently powerful sealed subs, you can create your own low-bass house curve. But, the sealed subs won't do that on their own, except in a very small room.

In order to create a low-bass house curve with two strong sealed subs, which would be comparable to what a Cap 2400 can produce naturally with the right LFA setting and subwoofer boost, you would need to have REW and a miniDSP. With those tools, you could probably produce sufficient deep bass SPL to satisfy you, at your moderate listening levels, although it is unlikely that they could produce as much low-bass TR as the Cap 2400 can, even so. Low-tuned ported subs just have too much inherent advantage there unless you are running the sealed subs very loud at very low-frequencies.

Given your overall objectives and situation, I don't think you can do better than a Cap 2400, especially since you have already been happy with your Cap 118. If you were looking for a somewhat different sound signature, I might recommend a Rythmik FV18HP with the paper cone. It is 3" taller and a little heavier, but the Cap 2400 will still beat it for the lowest frequencies, and for low-bass TR.

Edit: There is a reason why I keep mentioning low bass TR (tactile response). Below about 30Hz, and especially below 20Hz, we feel low-frequencies as much as we hear them. And, it becomes increasingly difficult to separate sound from sensation as the frequencies drop. If you are really chasing low-frequencies, below the capabilities of your Cap 118, then low-bass TR is a very important component of that. And the Cap 2400 will excel there.

Regards,
Mike
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post #16 of 113 Old 11-07-2019, 07:10 PM
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There are also the Rythmik/Salk subs which steps up aesthetics with Rythmik guts (not 100% sure that includes 18"). Very nice option to consider depending on time line if 18" are included.
Here's a link of what you were talking about, for the OP @madhuski;
http://salksound.com/model.php?model...k+15+Subwoofer

While I do not see any 18" available, maybe asking Salk Customer Service. Could answer, if it can be done as a special order. If the OP decide to go that way.


Darth

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post #17 of 113 Old 11-07-2019, 07:34 PM
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I'll cast a vote for the S3012. Since size is a concern with getting duals, it is the only sub that will have a narrower dimension due to the 15" driver(compared to the 18's). The dual 15's will outperform a single 18 of similar type such as the S1812. Having one dimension narrower due to the smaller driver makes a big difference in the footprint of the sub.

Dual Neo 15's with high excursion, very high sensitivity, very low distortion in a compact, totally inert cabinet.
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post #18 of 113 Old 11-07-2019, 10:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
I think I have a little better understanding now, of what you are after. Given your objective for more low-frequency response, and the size constraints, I would recommend a single Cap 2400. As you know, it is only 30" tall. It would give you a lot more low-frequency SPL and low-bass tactile response, than what you are getting now, and the LFA feature would help you to generate a low-bass house curve.

The problem with buying sealed subs to try to replicate the very low-frequency SPL and TR of something like the Cap 2400, is that it can take a lot of them. Below 20Hz, it can take up to three comparable sealed models, and below 15Hz, it can take about four. With two sufficiently powerful sealed subs, you can create your own low-bass house curve. But, the sealed subs won't do that on their own, except in a very small room.

In order to create a low-bass house curve with two strong sealed subs, which would be comparable to what a Cap 2400 can produce naturally with the right LFA setting and subwoofer boost, you would need to have REW and a miniDSP. With those tools, you could probably produce sufficient deep bass SPL to satisfy you, at your moderate listening levels, although it is unlikely that they could produce as much low-bass TR as the Cap 2400 can, even so. Low-tuned ported subs just have too much inherent advantage there unless you are running the sealed subs very loud at very low-frequencies.

Given your overall objectives and situation, I don't think you can do better than a Cap 2400, especially since you have already been happy with your Cap 118. If you were looking for a somewhat different sound signature, I might recommend a Rythmik FV18HP with the paper cone. It is 3" taller and a little heavier, but the Cap 2400 will still beat it for the lowest frequencies, and for low-bass TR.

Edit: There is a reason why I keep mentioning low bass TR (tactile response). Below about 30Hz, and especially below 20Hz, we feel low-frequencies as much as we hear them. And, it becomes increasingly difficult to separate sound from sensation as the frequencies drop. If you are really chasing low-frequencies, below the capabilities of your Cap 118, then low-bass TR is a very important component of that. And the Cap 2400 will excel there.

Regards,
Mike
Thanks for the detailed pos - your insight is certainly appreciated!

so it sounds like i may be best off selling the 118 i have and either go for dual x1200’s or a single 2400/2400ulf
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post #19 of 113 Old 11-07-2019, 10:22 PM
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Given your objective for more low-frequency response, and the size constraints, I would recommend a single Cap 2400.
Well damn, that's twice now in one day where I have to agree with Mike. I'll try to add a couple more things from my experience. If you like the signature of the 118, then I think you will like the 2400 even though they have different drivers. Here's why I say this, when I listened to the 118 in Ray's room, it seemed/sounded to dig deeper than it's 20hz tune would suggest (I think that's what it was tuned to at the time but was maybe changed to 18hz). So to me, it still had that type of weight to the bass even with the PA style driver. I'm not sure if I would say it was the same sound signature, it just had that JTR feel which is completely subjective on my part. If you want to preserve that sound with something that digs deeper and can pump out some more spl down low.......ta da.......the 2400. It measures almost identical to the 2400ulf. Shocker right, a JTR owner recommending a JTR to a JTR owner. The 2400 cabinet size may be almost identical to the 118?

If that's not the route you're thinking, then good suggestions on the FV15, PSA offerings and I'll throw another in, the Monolith 15. If you can do duals of those for the same price, or close to as the 2400, that's a hard argument to beat. Like Mike said, low tuned ported subs will give you a lot more performance per dollar than sealed.

Todd
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post #20 of 113 Old 11-08-2019, 05:43 AM
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Thanks for the detailed pos - your insight is certainly appreciated!

so it sounds like i may be best off selling the 118 i have and either go for dual x1200’s or a single 2400/2400ulf
That's definitely a good direction to go if you want to go small and ported. I like Tvuong's suggestion to go dual 1200's. I would always choose going duals over singles for all the reasons we talk about.
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post #21 of 113 Old 11-08-2019, 06:49 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks guys - I'll have to mull this over. Its sounding like the dual 1200 might be the win output, waf and benefit of dual wise (if Jeff has any left)

I should have mentioned from the start that one of the things that had me thinking dual 18's was the wisky gtg and this post from @SOWK

"Speaking of your new subs, the JTR Captivator RS1's... I know you feel the same but an enormous shout out to Jeff Permanian for allowing Rad a opportunity to have access to your new sealed JTR 18" subs. The 2 subs were able to go all the way down to 10hz in Rad's room and still output up to 115dB!!!! That's reference down to 10Hz.... WOW!!! I would have expected something like that from overly large ported subs, but not the single 18" sealed boxes that are significantly easier to place and get that WAF support! @Jeff Permanian your new subs not only preformed stupidly good for music but helped many people jump out of their seats when we watched Annabelle. Everyone was extremely impressed with what you have accomplished in such a small compact design. In this day and age of HT enthusiasts owning 4 plus subwoofers you still stand out in what your products can do. You have a killer new sub that I know any home theater or music lover would die to have in their personal systems."

(and yup - aware everyone's room is differrent but still the above is some high praise!)
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post #22 of 113 Old 11-08-2019, 07:03 AM
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Thanks guys - I'll have to mull this over. Its sounding like the dual 1200 might be the win output, waf and benefit of dual wise (if Jeff has any left)

I should have mentioned from the start that one of the things that had me thinking dual 18's was the wisky gtg and this post from @SOWK

"Speaking of your new subs, the JTR Captivator RS1's... I know you feel the same but an enormous shout out to Jeff Permanian for allowing Rad a opportunity to have access to your new sealed JTR 18" subs. The 2 subs were able to go all the way down to 10hz in Rad's room and still output up to 115dB!!!! That's reference down to 10Hz.... WOW!!! I would have expected something like that from overly large ported subs, but not the single 18" sealed boxes that are significantly easier to place and get that WAF support! @Jeff Permanian your new subs not only preformed stupidly good for music but helped many people jump out of their seats when we watched Annabelle. Everyone was extremely impressed with what you have accomplished in such a small compact design. In this day and age of HT enthusiasts owning 4 plus subwoofers you still stand out in what your products can do. You have a killer new sub that I know any home theater or music lover would die to have in their personal systems."

(and yup - aware everyone's room is differrent but still the above is some high praise!)
If you are able to try a couple of these subs out in your room that would really eliminate the what ifs even if it costs some in returning them

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post #23 of 113 Old 11-08-2019, 07:46 AM
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Does Tom make the 21 Ipal sealed? Since you want low frequencies and small I would get two RS1 or Ipal 21s. You don't listen to crazy loud levels and the sealed subs can be boosted down low to act like a ported sub. You will have twice the output eveywhere else with two drivers and a smoother response with duals.
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post #24 of 113 Old 11-08-2019, 07:49 AM - Thread Starter
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Does Tom make the 21 Ipal sealed? Since you want low frequencies and small I would get two RS1 or Ipal 21s. You don't listen to crazy loud levels and the sealed subs can be boosted down low to act like a ported sub. You will have twice the output eveywhere else with two drivers and a smoother response with duals.
I think he tops out at the 18inch ipal sealed
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post #25 of 113 Old 11-08-2019, 07:56 AM
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I think he tops out at the 18inch ipal sealed
Still good. If you are not seeking bass above what the sealed can do I would go sealed. If you want the TR that ported provides you boost the low end with the LFA adjust. The sealed will be still less max output at tune but that only matters if using max output. You will have twice the output everywhere else including below tune.
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post #26 of 113 Old 11-08-2019, 08:16 AM
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I think he tops out at the 18inch ipal sealed
At the moment yeah , but there have been a few mystery posts about a sealed 21" but nothing concrete...I would take the PSA V18 out of your thoughts if you are looking for extension , they pound but dont dig too deep...They cover about 93.5% of the spectrum , but some look for those last few %%%%.....The S30 from PSA is a great sub and really isnt that much bigger than the V18 , so I wouldnt shy away from it..I bought another S36 as an endtable just because the S30 I had there seemed too small lol...
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post #27 of 113 Old 11-08-2019, 10:39 AM
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@imureh Just forgot about Rythmik, tbh. But adding them just complicates things further - as basshead said, just so many good choices right now you can get stuck in analysis parlaysis....

@basshead81 I thought about the 3012, but if I'm going to do duals a smaller footprint would work much better. Plus, chatting with Tom he was styeering me toward the 1812 with my usage (moderate, no where near reference volumes)


but, if you were to tease out cost, fit/finish, customer service etc.....for pure performance which would you guys pick?
If looking at JTR options....

Imo a pair of 1200XS would be a nice upgrade from your 118HT. You should maintain the same upper bass capability with strong output down to 12hz. 2 1200XS is slightly more powerful then a single 2400 down low. Should net around 106db @ 12hz, and 123db above 30hz, compared to 104.6db and 118db of the 2400. So again a pair would give you 118HT level mid bass with 2400 level ultra low bass.

If you go with a single 2400 you will give up some of that mid bass slam. To some that isn't important to others it is.
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post #28 of 113 Old 11-08-2019, 11:40 AM
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@indebtbassfreak I've spoked to Jim in the past about his subs. Only thing is with all the braacing he does, his subs are quite a bit heavier than the standard Rythmik.

Standard Rythmik are more than heavy enough already!

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post #29 of 113 Old 11-08-2019, 11:58 AM
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I've spoked to Jim in the past about his subs. Only thing is with all the braacing he does, his subs are quite a bit heavier than the standard Rythmik.
Is that a negative though? Unless you plan on moving the sub frequently the extra weight is likely to be more of a benefit than a liability as it will reduce sympathetic cabinet vibrations from mucking up the sound.


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Well damn, that's twice now in one day where I have to agree with Mike. I'll try to add a couple more things from my experience. If you like the signature of the 118, then I think you will like the 2400 even though they have different drivers. Here's why I say this, when I listened to the 118 in Ray's room, it seemed/sounded to dig deeper than it's 20hz tune would suggest (I think that's what it was tuned to at the time but was maybe changed to 18hz). So to me, it still had that type of weight to the bass even with the PA style driver. I'm not sure if I would say it was the same sound signature, it just had that JTR feel which is completely subjective on my part.
+1

While the 118 and 2400 are designed by the same man they really don't sound the same, but that statement is extrapolating from my experience with 2 previous models.

I evaluated the first generation 118 and at the same time Jeff supplied me with a then current model 1400. Put the grills on and they looked the same, but play something and almost immediately you knew they weren't. To my ears the 118 had greater detail and sounded more articulate, while the 1400 had better presence and made you notice its contribution more. As you mentioned, the 118 played deeper than the drivers appearance would have suggested but when push came to shove the 1400 was able to do things the 118 wasn't quite capable of.

Before it was retired I think the 118 was on version 3 so I'm sure it only got better, but then again the 2400 probably bests the 1400 in every way. Assuming all that's true... if I directly compared the last version of the 118 to the current version of the 2400 it's quite likely my assessment would still be the same, albeit with just more capability from both.
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post #30 of 113 Old 11-08-2019, 12:41 PM - Thread Starter
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thanks guys.

so....in either this thread or via PM I've gotten recs for Dual RS1, Dual x1200s, Single 2400 and Dual PSA 18ipal

Here's a quick question: if I do go the @MKtheater sealed route, can I boost the low end with a dirac processor and adjusting the target curve?
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