I've had a $1,000 HSU sub (I think it was a VTF3 MK 4?) for about 12 years and it has served me very well. However, I just upgraded my preamp to an Atmos model (Marantz 7705) and, after watching the Aquaman UHD for about an hour, I feel like my sub is crying and limping. It seems to be bottoming out (loud sound of something banging against wood) every five minutes in that movie. So, while I hate to part with the old girl, I am forced to wonder if I need to step up to today's tech.
I have a pretty big theater (13 wide by almost 30 feet long), but I can only use one sub (as I have space for only one box to house it outside the room and one hole for it to blast through). For $1,000 to no more than $1,500, can I get a new sub that is not going to bottom out when I watch the Atmos track of Aquaman at reference levels (0 DB)? The sub it not visible from anywhere in the room, so I don't want to pay any extra for a pretty one.
What do you think hivemind of AV geniuses? Should I upgrade? Will it solve my problem? SVS SB-3000? JL Audio Dominion d110 Subwoofer? What would be the best choice at this proice point?
The SVS SB3000 and the JL D110 are really the exact opposite of what you need, any single, compact, sealed sub will really struggle in that room. You need the biggest ported sub you can squeeze into your budget.
Personally I'd go for something like the Monolith 15, Rythmik FV15HP (or stretch the budget and get the FV18)
I was just researching the SB3000 and I realized that part of its appeal is its appearance and small size, neither of which matter to me at all. What about the PB3000? More appropriate?
I agree. For that size room, and it appears a dedicated theater (not to mention the fact that you run at reference levels), you don't want your weak link to be your sub. I think the above would all be good choices, and the minimum entry level. The subs you have listed so far just seem too small for a dedicated theater of that size, running at reference levels and the fact that you can only accommodate one sub. I know they are above your price point, but it would be worth it to stretch your budget or save up for a bit and not skimp on the sub . I know, I upgraded three times until I finally ended up with something that could fill my room with bass as if I was there in the movie or concert. I ended up with a single PSA TV36 ipal .
Hmmm. This thread is making me question the wisdom of upgrading at all.
Right now, my HSU VTF3 (I'm thinking now it's a Mark 2) is doing fine on most material. It's not up to Jurassic World and not at all up to Aquaman, but, for most action movies, it sounds great with the system at 0db (calibrated just using Audyssey). I think the Monolith 15 and the SVS PB3000 would be big upgrades, but if those are also potentially not going to be able to handle Aquaman, then maybe I just can't watch that movie at references levels in my one-sub room.
Is that reasoning silly? Are the upgrade options I'm considering going to be big leaps forward, even if they are not actually big enough for my very large room?
FYI - the room is a family room with mobile furniture that turns it into a dedicated theater.
First- Op doesn't have a VTF3.5, he has an older 12" model.
Second- Even a single VTF3.5 is not even close to reference capable in a room the size of the OP.
Third- I would base reference capability off of the lowest frequency the sub is capable of.
Fourth- I wouldn't look at 1m peak data for anything useful. Those numbers are taken 3ft from the sub. 2m rms better(subtract 9db from 1m peak numbers) represents what you might seen in room. 106-108db @ 20hz isn't even close to reference capable.
Fifth- This is all based on the fact that the OP doesn't run the sub hot. MV -0 is only reference if the sub is calibrated to 75db. Many run their subs hot(5-10db), so the bass levels are actually hitting 115db peaks at lower volume levels.
Lastly, I have a 2400^3 room, it takes 3 ported PSA 15" subs to achieve reference level playback down to 16hz in my room. My subs are similar in capability to the VTF3.5 15".
My guess is the OP isn't actually playing anywhere near reference level because that 12" sub wouldn't even come close hitting reference level under 30hz in any room larger then a closet.
For $1,000 to no more than $1,500, can I get a new sub that is not going to bottom out when I watch the Atmos track of Aquaman at reference levels (0 DB)?
In a room that size? Highly unlikely for that price.
You mention reference for volume level, but is your sub being run where Audyssey set it, or have you boosted it? If it's running "hot" (most people boost their sub level a few dB after Audyssey), that's even more demand. Also, you could be sitting in a null that lowers your output.
How far do you have to back the master volume down to keep it from bottoming out? That will give you an idea of how much more output you need.
BTW, that loud clanking noise is not good. Don't keep running it that loud.
This thread made be curious to confirm what my sub is. My sub is an HSU VTF3-HO. 12" side firing woofer with two ports and a "turbo" box added to the ports for better performance below 20HZ. 500W Amp (RMS). In short, well less sub than either of the two I'm looking at now, which everyone is saying are inadequate for my room.
I don't run the sub hot. When I calibrate using Audyssey (mic set up in primary seating position and then seven later positions), it made me turn the sub volume dial down to about 30% to "level match" and then calibrated the sub to -2db from there. As I understand it, according to the Audyssey mic in the room, the sub is calibrated to be the right volume relative to the speakers. All I meant by "reference" is that I often watch movies at 0 DB on my Marantz 7705 preamp. Maybe I am misusing the term "reference?"
Bottom line, I want to watch Aquaman at the 0 DB setting, and my preamp, amp, and speakers are all up to the task, but my current sub is not. If I get a Monolith 15 or a PB3000, I assume they will not suffer the way my VTF-HO does, but that's the question I'm trying to answer. Is this upgrade worth it?
Like mentioned before at what volume can your sub handle Aquaman? That difference from 0 dB is how much more sub you need. Adding another sub like yours will gain you 6 dB if correct placement is used.
Yes Audyssey levels is much too low. Even regular cinemas have better bass impact compared to Audyssey. The test tones from the processor sets much better bass levels and I still turn it up.
JeffNebraska - not sure where you live in the bay area, but I live in Brentwood. You can come listen to my TV36 if you wish to see how a larger sub might sound to you.
JeffNebraska - not sure where you live in the bay area, but I live in Brentwood. You can come listen to my TV36 if you wish to see what a larger sub might sound to you.
You will ruin him forever lol. He will always want that experience as it will be the best he has heard whether he could afford it or not. This is where DIY comes into play.
As much I would love to have a sub that punches you in the gut with each explosion, my wife (who is incredibly supportive of this hobby and has let me pour tons of money and limited living space into our theater) would not dig a system that has twice the bass we already have. I am even nervous about the Monolith 15 for this reason, but I think (hope) she can tolerate that.
I don't need bass much louder. A few db wouldn't hurt, but I can easily add a few db to my current sub. I just don't want the sub to sound like boulders on a metal floor during an earthquake, which is basically how Aquaman at 0 DB sounded on Saturday night. I've heard the sub get overwhelmed before, but never in such an almost continuous way. The destruction of Atlantis was fully unwatchable.
Just because you have more potential bass output from your sub doesn't mean you have to crank the bass up (though most do!!!), it just means that there will be headroom at lower volumes and it will play with lower distortion and with less "bad noises" when you push up the MV.
What Jamie said. Having more capable sub(s) is not about continuously blasting bass louder than the rest of the frequency spectrum. No matter what sub you have you want to calibrate it so it is in balance (Audyssey, REW etc). But the more capable sub will have the dynamic reserves needed to play those peak moments in action films true to the source signal that can easily overwhelm lesser subs. And clean undistorted dynamics are where the life is in music and film.
Jeff, do you have capability to measure with REW? If so, perhaps you should use REW to figure out the the frequency peak that occurs while playing back a couple of scenes where you hear the sub bottoming out. Once you do this, you will know the scene is hot at say 30Hz. Next you could try to measure your sub’s response At the MLP without any room correction. Check if you have a big dip at that frequency( in this example at 30Hz). If yes, it could be that your sub is working extra hard to play back those frequencies. Changing the location of the sub or adding one more sub might help the issue. ( but still playing back at reference levels in your room size is a big ask for a single 12” sub).
Edit: one more point: with your budget and room size, I would not chase frequencies below 20Hz. Try to get a sub that can give you as much headroom above 20Hz. The PSA 1812 looks like a good sub for your situation but is still a bit outside your budget.
All he has to do is figure out how much lower the volume needs to be reduced in order to get clean playback out of his current sub. Then add that number to what he needs. So if he has to turn the sub down to MV -3 then he needs a sub with 3db more output. A sub like a mono 15 would handle that no problem with 3db to spare which equals clean effortless playback. I am not convinced his system is calibrated as MV 0 being reference level, so there for it's just a number to use as a base with no bearing on actual output levels.
Things we do know:
The older 12" HSU is a 100db @ 20hz and 111db above 30hz sub. Similar to a PB12NSD...
Any current sub on the market around 1500.00 from PSA, Rythmik, JTR, or Mono will decimate those subs. These subs are 108-110db @ 20hz and 117-120db above 30hz. Huge step up in clean output capability. Even the HSU VTF3.5 currently on sale for 759.00 plus shipping would be a substantial upgrade.
I have another dumb question about my current sub. As I mentioned above, Audyssey had me turn the volume dial on my sub down to about 30% or 35% to "level match" the sub. Would it have an easier time in high demand moments if the dial we're higher (maybe 50%) and the preamp trim was being used to balance it, or is that just apples and apples? Just want to make sure that part of the struggles aren't caused by me turning it way down and then pushing it hard.
Like I said, I recognize that this is an ignorant question. Thanks.
Never be afraid to ask a question, how do you learn? The dial on the amp is not a volume control, it is to get the sub to match the output LFE channel on the processor so more of an input attenuator. You can max out the sub with it on minimum or maximum depending on the controls of the processor, etc..
Like mentioned above, play aquaman like you did before but turn down the LFE trim on the reciever until it stops bottoming(don't let your sub bottom at all) and then you know how much more dB of a sub you need to run aquaman at your normal listening levels.
As you are USA based, Black Friday is coming and there may (should?) be some good Subs offered with healthy discounts. So it's time now to get prepared.
I expect there could be some deals to be had at SVS, Monoprice, HSU, etc. Some like SVS have amazing try / buy scenarios.
See "SVS SWEETENS 45-DAY TRIAL WITH FREE RETURN SHIPPING"
Other like Monoprice, HSU, etc., have a 30 day no hassle return => but you pick up the freight. That may be a consideration. But really getting the right Sub for you is the goal here.
Some folks order two or three models at once from different OEMs to compare. Other chip away one at a time until the one they have satisfies them. With the latter scenario, going to an SVS with their return policy leaves you with nothing out of pocket if you decide to return it. If I were you I'd probably look at them first in the latter scenario.
Of course the manic way is to jump all in, and grab more than one (3?) and make an event of it and post your review here!
By the way, I have HSU CCB-8s for my Fronts in one of my systems (my Atmos system) and the folks at HSU were great to deal with.
Hsu has sales, but I have never seen a really major price break.
They currently have a "pre-holiday" sale on the VTF-3 Mk5. If you buy two, it'll be $31 less (shipped) than the "dual drive" package, which appears to not be on sale.
I availed myself of a similar sale last summer. Coming from a pair of VTF-1s ( a Mk2 and a Mk3), it was almost life-altering.
By the way: I run the subs at the levels Audyssey XT32/SubEq determines. (Not "hot".) The bass in Aquaman occasionally becomes worthy of notice, but compared to Blade Runner 2049, it's nothin'.
Thanks so much for the info, all. This has been tremendously helpful!
I am really interested in the SVS B-stock that has physical blemishes. My sub is in a sealed box in my crawl space, so I don't care at all how it looks. This would allow me to get a PB4000 and enjoy the bonus of the SVS app, to which I'm drawn.
Would the PB4000 be largely equivalent to the Monolith 15 in terms of output (at least everywhere but the ultra low frequencies), or is the Monolith 15 still better for my large room?
The PB-4000 weighs 153 lbs. The Monolith, a svelte (?) 128.5 lbs. I doubt that I'd be thrilled to handle either alone. A Hsu VTF-3 Mk5 (76 lbs) is heavy, as far as I'm concerned.
I haven't been able to find a comparable review for it, but the Rythmik FV15HP should also be worthy of consideration. http://rythmikaudio.com/FV15HP.html It's a servo controlled sub, unlike the SVS and the Monolith. Supposed to have lots of output.
From it "Its performance qualifies it for Audioholics’ Bassaholic ‘Extreme’ room size rating in both of its ported modes, meaning that it is powerful enough to tackle a room size of 5,000 cubic feet." So yes, it should perform in your room (30 x 18 x 8' = 3,120 cubic feet.)
I'm in Canada, and the SVS Site prevents my IP from seeing their pricing, so you're on your own there. I expect more sweetening to come on Black Friday regardless. Amazon has them at full retail $1900 and maybe on a B stock one you'll find one to fit your budget for $1500 USD.
Funny. As Zeus33 deduced, the sub is in a sealed plywood box in the crawl space adjacent to my theater. There’s a big cut out in the wall, covered with a speaker fabric-like material, and the side-facing driver on my sub is right in front of that hole. I have my LRC speakers in similar boxes on the other side of the wall behind my AT screen.
This raises a question. For my new sub (leaning SVS PB4000), is it vital to have the driver facing the hole into the room? I assume so, but wanted to confirm because doing that will require me to build a new box.
As it's a front-firing (and front-ported) sub, build the box. I wonder if there are any ventilation issues for the sub?
I now get why you'd prefer a sub with a control app, as you may not have ready access to the controls on the sub.
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