Help: Will adding a sealed sub to my existing ported sub be a good idea for my setup? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 2Likes
  • 1 Post By bear123
  • 1 Post By basshead81
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 14 Old 12-07-2019, 04:15 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
joms's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 169
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 122 Post(s)
Liked: 15
Help: Will adding a sealed sub to my existing ported sub be a good idea for my setup?

Hi guys,

Im relatively a noob to some degree so I need some help.

Will adding an SVS SB3000 subwoofer (front firing sealed sub) be a good idea to complement my SVS PC13 Ultra (downward firing ported sub) given the following:

1) 100% movies
2) Bedroom with 15 sqm space (160 sqft), carpeted.
3) Subwoofer will be placed in front around 4 feet apart. They will not be symmetric.
4) No room treatment and I am not allowed to put any due to WAF
5) No, I cannot get a ported version due to size (height) and limitation of location i can place them. I cannot go over 16" height as it will block the center speaker. In short, max size is 16x16x16 inches.
6) I can only place them in one location and cannot move any of my speakers anymore. Space is very cramped and no other way to change locations. (computer table fixed to wall, etc)

My setup: 5.1.4
TV- Samsung UA78JU7500
AMP - Denon x4500H
Speakers front - Kef Q350
Speakers center - Kef Q650
Speakers Rear surround - Mission
Speakers Top Front Audyssey - Klipsch 5650
Speakers Top Rear Audyssey - Klipsch 2650
Subwoofer - SVS PC13 Ultra
Player - Apple TV 4K (streaming) / Zidoo z9s (4K movies in hard drive)


Questions:

1) Will adding an SVS SB3000 subwoofer (forward firing sub) be a good idea to complement my SVS PC13 Ultra (downward firing sub)?
2) If not, will selling my SVS PC13 Ultra and getting 2x SVS SB3000 (front firing sub) be a better choice?
3) If I go 2x subs, do i need to buy a mic and some stuff to calibrate the subs manually or will the Denon Audyssey XT32 be enough?

Thanks.

Below is a rough diagram of the room (note: grey boxes are computers/drawers/etc which cannot be moved as they are fixed in the wall. Also TV and center speaker is a bit front and there are drawers below them.


Last edited by joms; 12-07-2019 at 04:42 PM.
joms is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 14 Old 12-07-2019, 04:21 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
smcmillan2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Farmington, MI, USA
Posts: 2,306
Mentioned: 30 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1021 Post(s)
Liked: 856
Quote:
Originally Posted by joms View Post
6) I can only place them in one location and cannot move any of my speakers anymore. Space is very cramped and no other way to change locations. (computer table fixed to wall, etc)
Based on this there is no way to answer your question. If you can't place them where they work optimally, all bets on subwoofer usage are off.

What are you trying to accomplish by adding another sub?

Your Denon 4500 has the ability to EQ each subwoofer output independently, so it may provide what you are after.

Sub builds: Yet another Infinity 1260 build | Twins! | Modified V.B.S.S. build | UM12-22 builds | AV stand and sealed UM18s

Speaker builds: DIYSG HTM-10 build | DIYSG Volt-6 build | DIYSG Fusion-8 builds
smcmillan2 is online now  
post #3 of 14 Old 12-07-2019, 04:43 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
joms's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 169
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 122 Post(s)
Liked: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by smcmillan2 View Post
Based on this there is no way to answer your question. If you can't place them where they work optimally, all bets on subwoofer usage are off.

What are you trying to accomplish by adding another sub?

Your Denon 4500 has the ability to EQ each subwoofer output independently, so it may provide what you are after.
What I want to achieve is to get the best bass possible (for movies) with the given limitations.

Last edited by joms; 12-07-2019 at 05:35 PM.
joms is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #4 of 14 Old 12-07-2019, 04:59 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
smcmillan2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Farmington, MI, USA
Posts: 2,306
Mentioned: 30 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1021 Post(s)
Liked: 856
Quote:
Originally Posted by joms View Post
What I want to achieve is to get best bass possible for movies on the limitations i've been given.
The only way to know if an additional sub placed in a given spot will give you the "best bass possible" will be to experiment. I would at the very least invest in an inexpensive SPL meter and test the output with your existing sub in both of the locations to make sure it works in them.

Mixing sealed with ported can prove to be problematic, but I don't find it to be as big an issue as many here make it to be. Especially with adequate EQ.

Sub builds: Yet another Infinity 1260 build | Twins! | Modified V.B.S.S. build | UM12-22 builds | AV stand and sealed UM18s

Speaker builds: DIYSG HTM-10 build | DIYSG Volt-6 build | DIYSG Fusion-8 builds
smcmillan2 is online now  
post #5 of 14 Old 12-07-2019, 05:38 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
joms's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 169
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 122 Post(s)
Liked: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by smcmillan2 View Post
The only way to know if an additional sub placed in a given spot will give you the "best bass possible" will be to experiment. I would at the very least invest in an inexpensive SPL meter and test the output with your existing sub in both of the locations to make sure it works in them.

Mixing sealed with ported can prove to be problematic, but I don't find it to be as big an issue as many here make it to be. Especially with adequate EQ.

Thanks. I will try to get an SPL meter. Any suggestions for a good and simple one?

By the way, the PC13 has 3x holes on top which I can plug with foam to make it sealed right? If I seal it, would it work better with the SVS SB3000?
joms is offline  
post #6 of 14 Old 12-07-2019, 05:57 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
bear123's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: PA
Posts: 6,849
Mentioned: 88 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2931 Post(s)
Liked: 4475
Mixing sealed with ported is a terrible idea, it won't work well. You *will*, not maybe, *will* get cancellation around port tune of your ported sub where the sealed and ported are out of phase. The result is that you will have less bass in this area with both subs than you have with one. Low frequency bass is the hardest and costliest to produce, so losing output here, which will happen, is why this is a terrible idea. Can it sound better? With proper placement and integration, sure, as dual subs, even mismatched alignments, can improve frequency response and hence sound quality up in the audible spectrum above 40 Hz. If you are willing to have less low frequency bass than what you get with the single sub in order to get a smoother response up top, it will work well. Or, you could get a matching sub and gain an average 6 dB everywhere and get a better response. However, placed 4 ft apart, your response will end up the same. This is too close together to improve sound quality.

Isn't a PC13 Ultra in your bedroom massive overkill anyway? Don't you have a living room?

As far as sealing the ports on the PC13 Ultra, yes, you can do this and it would integrate better with the SB3000. However, you will lose about 10 dB of output down low by sealing the ports, and gain 4 or so by adding the SB3000. So you will have half the output around port tune by sealing the ports and adding the SB3000. If you had the ability to place the second sub properly, you would weight this against improving your response and sound quality, but placing them four feet apart will make no difference in your response.
Alan P likes this.

Last edited by bear123; 12-07-2019 at 06:10 PM.
bear123 is online now  
post #7 of 14 Old 12-07-2019, 06:07 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
joms's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 169
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 122 Post(s)
Liked: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
Mixing sealed with ported is a terrible idea, it won't work well. You *will*, not maybe, *will* get cancellation around port tune of your ported sub where the sealed and ported are out of phase. The result is that you will have less bass in this area with both subs than you have with one. Low frequency bass is the hardest and costliest to produce, so losing output here, which will happen, is why this is a terrible idea. Can it sound better? With proper placement and integration, sure, as dual subs, even mismatched alignments, can improve frequency response and hence sound quality up in the audible spectrum above 40 Hz. If you are willing to have less low frequency bass than what you get with the single sub in order to get a smoother response up top, it will work well. Or, you could get a matching sub and gain an average 6 dB everywhere and get a better response. However, placed 4 ft apart, your response will end up the same. This is too close together to improve sound quality.

Isn't a PC13 Ultra in your bedroom massive overkill anyway? Don't you have a living room?
Thanks. What if i sell the SVS PC13 Ultra and get 2x SB3000, would that be better for me (for movies) or will it be negligible since my subs are only 4x feet apart?

If not, is there any other way to improve my bass to the best that i can get given my limitations?
joms is offline  
post #8 of 14 Old 12-07-2019, 06:13 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
bear123's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: PA
Posts: 6,849
Mentioned: 88 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2931 Post(s)
Liked: 4475
Quote:
Originally Posted by joms View Post
Thanks. What if i sell the SVS PC13 Ultra and get 2x SB3000, would that be better for me (for movies) or will it be negligible since my subs are only 4x feet apart?

If not, is there any other way to improve my bass to the best that i can get given my limitations?
Dual sealed subs will have less output and less shake rumble and roll around port tune(15-30 Hz or so) than the single ported sub. If you were able to be more flexible with placement by using smaller sealed subs such as the SB3000 or the more capable PSA S1512 for example, you could get much improved bass with a little less output right around port tune. Dual S1512's would gain an output advantage over the PC13 Ultra in the very low bass below 15 Hz, more output above 30 Hz(drastically more), and the potential for a better response for improved sound quality.

Proper placement is what largely determines sound quality for bass if you have good sub(s). If you aren't able to place them where they need to go, your are somewhat stuck with the sound that you have. In my room with a single sub in the front left corner, I have a huge, wide null in my response that even heavy eq can only do so much with. A second sub placed in a bad spot doesn't help matters at all. The second sub placed properly results in a response with no dips or nulls that I am able to eq very smooth with mainly a couple of cuts for fantastic sound quality.

You could download REW and order a Umik-1 mic if you want to see what is going on in your room.

Last edited by bear123; 12-07-2019 at 06:19 PM.
bear123 is online now  
post #9 of 14 Old 12-07-2019, 06:15 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
PlanetAVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Austin TX USA
Posts: 3,523
Mentioned: 25 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2243 Post(s)
Liked: 2125
Quote:
Originally Posted by joms View Post
Thanks. What if i sell the SVS PC13 Ultra and get 2x SB3000, would that be better for me (for movies) or will it be negligible since my subs are only 4x feet apart?

If not, is there any other way to improve my bass to the best that i can get given my limitations?
Two subs might be better but it is impossible to say for certain if you are tied to two predetermined positions until you try it. Sounds like budget is not a big factor.

If you're determined to do it, I would sell the SVS PC and go with two identical ported subs (not the SB3000) since you are all movies.
PlanetAVS is offline  
post #10 of 14 Old 12-07-2019, 06:30 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
smcmillan2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Farmington, MI, USA
Posts: 2,306
Mentioned: 30 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1021 Post(s)
Liked: 856
Quote:
Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
Mixing sealed with ported is a terrible idea, it won't work well. You *will*, not maybe, *will* get cancellation around port tune of your ported sub where the sealed and ported are out of phase.
I have to respectfully disagree with the "terrible idea" here. I recently placed dual sealed UM18 subs up front, with an existing V.B.S.S. in the back of the room (~17Hz tune).

I do have the cancellation at 17Hz as expected, but it is so sharp and only ~-2dB that it isn't noticeable in my listening experience. So in my experience mixing ported and sealed can work fine, but there may be more work involved in getting them to play nice together than using the same style subs.

I still believe the OP's greatest hurdle may be placement. Only measurements will tell.

Sub builds: Yet another Infinity 1260 build | Twins! | Modified V.B.S.S. build | UM12-22 builds | AV stand and sealed UM18s

Speaker builds: DIYSG HTM-10 build | DIYSG Volt-6 build | DIYSG Fusion-8 builds
smcmillan2 is online now  
post #11 of 14 Old 12-07-2019, 07:00 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
joms's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 169
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 122 Post(s)
Liked: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by PlanetAVS View Post
Two subs might be better but it is impossible to say for certain if you are tied to two predetermined positions until you try it. Sounds like budget is not a big factor.

If you're determined to do it, I would sell the SVS PC and go with two identical ported subs (not the SB3000) since you are all movies.
sorry, height restriction makes me unable to get a ported sub. 16" max height else it would cover center speaker and TV.
joms is offline  
post #12 of 14 Old 12-07-2019, 07:14 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
smcmillan2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Farmington, MI, USA
Posts: 2,306
Mentioned: 30 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1021 Post(s)
Liked: 856
Quote:
Originally Posted by joms View Post
Thanks. I will try to get an SPL meter. Any suggestions for a good and simple one?
I have this one, but there are plenty out there that will serve the purpose, including apps for your phone/tablet: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Sub builds: Yet another Infinity 1260 build | Twins! | Modified V.B.S.S. build | UM12-22 builds | AV stand and sealed UM18s

Speaker builds: DIYSG HTM-10 build | DIYSG Volt-6 build | DIYSG Fusion-8 builds
smcmillan2 is online now  
post #13 of 14 Old 12-08-2019, 07:15 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
joms's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 169
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 122 Post(s)
Liked: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by bear123 View Post

You could download REW and order a Umik-1 mic if you want to see what is going on in your room.

Hi, what benefits would i get if i buy the Umik-1 and use it with REW? ?(what do you mean what's going on in my room?)

Also, how do I use it to complement the audyssey XT32 I have with the Denon x4500h? Thanks.

Edit: Is it better to buy the UMIK-1 in cross-spectrum or is it ok to get it from amazon (amazon ships from minisdp/madison speaker components) - are they the same?

Last edited by joms; 12-08-2019 at 07:40 AM.
joms is offline  
post #14 of 14 Old 12-08-2019, 09:30 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
basshead81's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Fort Wayne, IN
Posts: 13,548
Mentioned: 200 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 348 Post(s)
Liked: 10015
Mixing ported with sealed or ported with different tuning points is not recommended but it can be done. The way I have found for it to work is by making sure they are not mutually coupled. Meaning place them outside of 1/4 wave length distance so they are interacting differently with room modes.

Dominguez runs a pair of sealed subs up front and a pair of Rythmik FV15's nearfield around the seats with excellent results. Others have done the same thing with good results but you have to have placement options.

That being said, looking at your room layout diagram, I think you may run into issues with the subs placed that close to eachother. You will likely want one sub(PC13) up front left and SB3000 close to the seats at by speaker 7 right rear. If you don't have a lot of placement options then I would suggest sticking with matching subs.
craig john likes this.
basshead81 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply Subwoofers, Bass, and Transducers

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off