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post #1 of 32 Old 01-02-2020, 06:41 AM - Thread Starter
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Best value in 2020 for $1k

I'm looking for the best value for around $1k. I have a massive room around 4500 cu ft and I am aware $1k isn't going to really get me there but it's better than nothing. Are there any deals still going? I found a couple PB-12NSD's for $500 each on Amazon. Have been looking at HSU and PSA but PSA's cheapest sub is >$1k... WAF is not as much a factor in this area so I'm really just looking to maximize SPL for $. 1 or two subs doesn't really matter to me, whatever is deeper extension and louder.
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post #2 of 32 Old 01-02-2020, 07:01 AM
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Two 15" Ultimax subs in a 4 cubic foot box stuffed with 4 pounds of polyfil from the local craft store powered by the NX3000D for the DSP to take advantage of the high excursion of the Ultimax sub for deep extension in a sealed cabinet. Each box will take about a full sheet of 3/4" MDF using a double thickness baffle.
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post #3 of 32 Old 01-02-2020, 07:15 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by bjaurelio View Post
Two 15" Ultimax subs in a 4 cubic foot box stuffed with 4 pounds of polyfil from the local craft store powered by the NX3000D for the DSP to take advantage of the high excursion of the Ultimax sub for deep extension in a sealed cabinet. Each box will take about a full sheet of 3/4" MDF using a double thickness baffle.
If we're going the passive route with DSP, would this bundle be a pretty good deal and then I can skip the building? https://www.chanemusiccinema.com/ind...ew&bundle_id=2

https://www.chanemusiccinema.com/for...1&d=1524746036 freq resp

NM these seem like not ideal drivers for HT... low xmax

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post #4 of 32 Old 01-02-2020, 07:16 AM
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If you're open to DIY, you can do 4 VBSS's about $1K and that would be by far your best bang for your buck.


Amp: Behringer NX3000D $349
Driver: Dayton Audio PA460 x4 $380
Cabinet: 4'x8' 3/4" MDF x 4 $132
R-13 Denim Insulation $60
Terminal Cups x4 $12
Duratex Paint -1 gal $75 (what PSA uses on their subs)


Total $1008
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post #5 of 32 Old 01-02-2020, 07:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bradsh View Post
If we're going the passive route with DSP, would this bundle be a pretty good deal and then I can skip the building? https://www.chanemusiccinema.com/ind...ew&bundle_id=2

https://www.chanemusiccinema.com/for...1&d=1524746036 freq resp

NM these seem like not ideal drivers for HT... low xmax
Xmax isn't the issue, it's extension. I don't know what's going on in the red line from that plot, but it's something other than just a 20Hz lowpass. These are using pro woofers, which means very high SPL at the price of deeper extension. In a sealed enclosure, I'm just not certain how low they can extend with a DSP boost. My 15" sealed ultimax is flat to 20Hz. We listen about 20-30db below reference, and in a 12x18 room it's loud enough, but the cone really starts moving quite a bit on the sub 20Hz content. Given the high sensitivity of these drivers, they don't need nearly as much xmax, but the xmax really helps when pushing a subwoofer to a lower effective tuning.
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post #6 of 32 Old 01-02-2020, 07:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Mocs123 View Post
If you're open to DIY, you can do 4 VBSS's about $1K and that would be by far your best bang for your buck.


Amp: Behringer NX3000D $349
Driver: Dayton Audio PA460 x4 $380
Cabinet: 4'x8' 3/4" MDF x 4 $132
R-13 Denim Insulation $60
Terminal Cups x4 $12
Duratex Paint -1 gal $75 (what PSA uses on their subs)


Total $1008
I thought about it a bit and as much as I would like to go DIY I don't really have the uninterrupted free time needed to pull something like that off right now :[

I will have to stick to retail
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post #7 of 32 Old 01-02-2020, 08:41 AM
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For retail and not exceeding $1000 the best value is the Hsu. Get one now and then buy a second later when funds allow and that should do a pretty good job in your space. I would also e-mail PSA to see about outlet options. He has been taking some older models on trade with all his new models shipping out and has been too busy to get them posted online. He fully inspects and backs with full support and five year warranty.

Other than that, you could still get two Outlaw X-12 for $1000 if you purchase today or a single X-13.
https://www.outlawaudio.com/mofcart/cmny2019.html

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post #8 of 32 Old 01-02-2020, 09:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bradsh View Post
I thought about it a bit and as much as I would like to go DIY I don't really have the uninterrupted free time needed to pull something like that off right now :[

I will have to stick to retail
PSA has a 'Value Line' that should be coming out sometime early this year....Should be pretty competitive pricing , but I am not sure of many more details....Off the top of my head I want to say there was some mention of a ported 21" sub , but I could be wrong..
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post #9 of 32 Old 01-02-2020, 09:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by bargugl View Post
For retail and not exceeding $1000 the best value is the Hsu. Get one now and then buy a second later when funds allow and that should do a pretty good job in your space. I would also e-mail PSA to see about outlet options. He has been taking some older models on trade with all his new models shipping out and has been too busy to get them posted online. He fully inspects and backs with full support and five year warranty.

Other than that, you could still get two Outlaw X-12 for $1000 if you purchase today or a single X-13.
https://www.outlawaudio.com/mofcart/cmny2019.html
Those outlaw subs seem like a good deal. Would 2 x12s be better or 1 x13?
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post #10 of 32 Old 01-02-2020, 10:43 AM
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Originally Posted by bradsh View Post
Those outlaw subs seem like a good deal. Would 2 x12s be better or 1 x13?



My room is a similar size and my dual X12's do a fantastic job. Extension mode doesn't have enough output because of my 5000 cu.ft. but in max output mode i'm 100% happy.
Everyone has different expectations though. I average 110-115dB (22hz-60hz) in my main listening position. Both subs are 8 ft/ from my MLP.

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post #11 of 32 Old 01-02-2020, 10:44 AM
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If your looking to just fill in lower frequencies a pair of the X12 are hard to beat in that price range but unfortunately thats about all they will do in that space. If you get the best single $1000 sub now,, it will give you the better upgrade path if you choose to add a second at some point,,,, just depends on you bass expectations.

Bass is a huge rabbit hole so i'd give that some thought.
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post #12 of 32 Old 01-02-2020, 02:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by indebtbassfreak View Post
If your looking to just fill in lower frequencies a pair of the X12 are hard to beat in that price range but unfortunately thats about all they will do in that space. If you get the best single $1000 sub now,, it will give you the better upgrade path if you choose to add a second at some point,,,, just depends on you bass expectations.

Bass is a huge rabbit hole so i'd give that some thought.[IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG]
It seems like the outlaws even on sale probably aren't that great. Better off with a lower priced hsu
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post #13 of 32 Old 01-02-2020, 03:10 PM
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It seems like the outlaws even on sale probably aren't that great. Better off with a lower priced hsu
It all depends on your bass expectations ("thats" the most important thing to understand) in your end result. IMO anything short of a ported 15" HSU/PSA in that price range and adding another later will be a fart in the wind "if" you want more than just filling out the bottom end a bit more in that large space. Two 12" Outlaws,HSU's/SVS for example will struggle imo to give any SPL below 20-22Hz unless their near field to your MLP and if on concrete even worse. Once again depends on what you are hoping for. Who knows maybe your fine down to usable 25Hz idunno, but the likes of myself and many others on AVS have spent lots on upgrades as bass is addictive to many so really think about your end goal.
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post #14 of 32 Old 01-02-2020, 05:17 PM
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Originally Posted by bradsh View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by indebtbassfreak View Post
If your looking to just fill in lower frequencies a pair of the X12 are hard to beat in that price range but unfortunately thats about all they will do in that space. If you get the best single $1000 sub now,, it will give you the better upgrade path if you choose to add a second at some point,,,, just depends on you bass expectations.

Bass is a huge rabbit hole so i'd give that some thought.[IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG]
It seems like the outlaws even on sale probably aren't that great. Better off with a lower priced hsu
You won't find a better 12" Sub for $499(on sale/free shipping atm).
You would need dual pb12NSD to match the output of one X12 40hz-100hz.

The HSU vtf2mk5 cost $600 with shipping and is marginally better (2db) between 25-40hz. It does have more output but also has some resonance issues(most wouldn't notice though) which the X12 does not(due to the extra bracing). Aesthetically the X12 is nicer IMO.

The best bang/$ 3+ years going is the HSU VTF3 MK5. Absolute undisputed value king! There's simply no way to argue against this sub ATM.

Again I have great output with my dual x12 all near-field(within 8ft) in my 5000 cu.ft. I can surprisingly push 100dB @ 18.5hz in max output (falls off a cliff below 18hz though) and 105-115db 20-60hz in a room this big. This is all temporary until my HT room is complete(1750cu.ft.) so I wasn't expected miracles but those numbers/performance has impressed me!

Dual VTF3mk5 would be the better option IMO (one now , one later)

Speakers: KEF Q100, Q300, Q750, Q650C, Q50a / Fluance Signature Series/ DCM TP160S-CH Subwoofers: Outlaw Ultra X12 (x2) / BIC H100-IIReceiver: Denon AVR-X4500H, AVR-X1400H Integrated Amplifier: Yamaha A-S501/ Fosi Audio TPA3116 mini amp Extras: MiniDSP Umik-1 Amplifier: Emotiva BasX-A300 Next Speakers: Triangle BR03, Revel Concerta2 M16, KEF LS50, Dynaudio Emit M20, Buchardt S400, Triangle Comet ez, KEF R3
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post #15 of 32 Old 01-02-2020, 05:46 PM
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^^ IMO the Outlaw is much better looking. The vtf-2-mk-5 is a little rough around the "vinyl" edges but does perform well in it's price range. If your getting 105DB's at 20Hz in your space you have done well with your placement. Are you on a floating floor?

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post #16 of 32 Old 01-03-2020, 05:15 AM
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Originally Posted by indebtbassfreak View Post
^^ IMO the Outlaw is much better looking. The vtf-2-mk-5 is a little rough around the "vinyl" edges but does perform well in it's price range. If your getting 105DB's at 20Hz in your space you have done well with your placement. Are you on a floating floor?



The floor is floating hardwood (old 70's house) with the room underneath completely unfinished (no ceiling/insulation etc)


Here's my response, I had a null at 66hz which i'm not sure is due to placement or my 60hz crossover but i was using a denon x1400h and have since upgraded to the x4500h with multi subeq.
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Speakers: KEF Q100, Q300, Q750, Q650C, Q50a / Fluance Signature Series/ DCM TP160S-CH Subwoofers: Outlaw Ultra X12 (x2) / BIC H100-IIReceiver: Denon AVR-X4500H, AVR-X1400H Integrated Amplifier: Yamaha A-S501/ Fosi Audio TPA3116 mini amp Extras: MiniDSP Umik-1 Amplifier: Emotiva BasX-A300 Next Speakers: Triangle BR03, Revel Concerta2 M16, KEF LS50, Dynaudio Emit M20, Buchardt S400, Triangle Comet ez, KEF R3

Last edited by macgallant; 01-03-2020 at 05:49 AM.
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post #17 of 32 Old 01-03-2020, 07:36 AM - Thread Starter
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I ultimately ordered hsu vtf3-mk5-hp
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post #18 of 32 Old 01-03-2020, 07:43 AM
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I ultimately ordered hsu vtf3-mk5-hp



Congrats and smart move! you couldn't of made a better purchase for the $$$


You can try extension mode but you most likely (99%) need to run it in max output/spl mode (2 ports open) because of the size of your room.

Speakers: KEF Q100, Q300, Q750, Q650C, Q50a / Fluance Signature Series/ DCM TP160S-CH Subwoofers: Outlaw Ultra X12 (x2) / BIC H100-IIReceiver: Denon AVR-X4500H, AVR-X1400H Integrated Amplifier: Yamaha A-S501/ Fosi Audio TPA3116 mini amp Extras: MiniDSP Umik-1 Amplifier: Emotiva BasX-A300 Next Speakers: Triangle BR03, Revel Concerta2 M16, KEF LS50, Dynaudio Emit M20, Buchardt S400, Triangle Comet ez, KEF R3
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post #19 of 32 Old 01-03-2020, 08:36 AM
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These ID 12" subs being compared are pretty good down to 20hz. A PB12NSD tested almost 103db @ 20hz 2m rms. A pair would net 108-109db at minimum in any size room. The PB12 is stronger then the x12 down low but gives up more above 40hz vs a X12.

I was going to suggest considering the HSU VTF3.5 and it looks like the OP did and ordered one...smart move!
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post #20 of 32 Old 01-03-2020, 08:55 AM
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i know ill get blasted all to pieces, but if you can score a pair of PB-12NSD from SVS still go that route. Or buy a single PB-2000pro and upgrade to a second later. You will hear all about how you can get a DIY wander box for cheaper and itll go deeper and louder(and itll look like a steaming pile of crap unless your a good wood worker). With SVS you get great customer service, and support, 5 year hassle free warranty and reports of them going beyond that for folks, and you can upgrade within a year and get full purchase price back on your subs. People seem to feel on here that customer service isnt worth anything, and their time is worthless. Im sorry but for what you save doing DIY, your not valuing your own time very highly. Also like i said im not a wood worker and i bet most of the guys on here arent either, the diy route tends to end up looking rather poorly all to often.
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post #21 of 32 Old 01-03-2020, 01:08 PM
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i know ill get blasted all to pieces, but if you can score a pair of PB-12NSD from SVS still go that route. Or buy a single PB-2000pro and upgrade to a second later. You will hear all about how you can get a DIY wander box for cheaper and itll go deeper and louder(and itll look like a steaming pile of crap unless your a good wood worker). With SVS you get great customer service, and support, 5 year hassle free warranty and reports of them going beyond that for folks, and you can upgrade within a year and get full purchase price back on your subs. People seem to feel on here that customer service isnt worth anything, and their time is worthless. Im sorry but for what you save doing DIY, your not valuing your own time very highly. Also like i said im not a wood worker and i bet most of the guys on here arent either, the diy route tends to end up looking rather poorly all to often.



HSU / PSA/ Outlaw have AMAZING customer service


His HSU VTF3 MK5 gets him nearly PB4000 performance for the same price of a PB2000.
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Speakers: KEF Q100, Q300, Q750, Q650C, Q50a / Fluance Signature Series/ DCM TP160S-CH Subwoofers: Outlaw Ultra X12 (x2) / BIC H100-IIReceiver: Denon AVR-X4500H, AVR-X1400H Integrated Amplifier: Yamaha A-S501/ Fosi Audio TPA3116 mini amp Extras: MiniDSP Umik-1 Amplifier: Emotiva BasX-A300 Next Speakers: Triangle BR03, Revel Concerta2 M16, KEF LS50, Dynaudio Emit M20, Buchardt S400, Triangle Comet ez, KEF R3
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post #22 of 32 Old 01-03-2020, 01:13 PM
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These ID 12" subs being compared are pretty good down to 20hz. A PB12NSD tested almost 103db @ 20hz 2m rms. A pair would net 108-109db at minimum in any size room. The PB12 is stronger then the x12 down low but gives up more above 40hz vs a X12.

I was going to suggest considering the HSU VTF3.5 and it looks like the OP did and ordered one...smart move!


In max extension I push 109dB @ 20hz (and 103.5dB @ 15hz) + more extension than a PB12 NSD.
But because of the size of the room I prefer the mid-bass of max output.
I debated the PB12-NSD at the time but it lacked the mid-bass punch i was looking for. I later found out i couldn't get it in Canada anyways lol.


In Max extension the PB12NSD has an advantage from 19hz to 40hz while the X12 pulls ahead from 15hz-19hz and 40hz and up.

In Max output the X12 pulls ahead from 23hz to 100hz(substantially above 40hz) while the PB12-NSD has a small 19-23hz advantage.


The PB12-NSD does have a tiny window where it performs better regardless of the X12's tuning but IMO it isn't enough when compared to the sizeable advantage in mid-bass you get from the X12 and deeper extension (if you choose that mode)


regardless the OP made the wise choice of stepping up to a VTF-3 MK5

Speakers: KEF Q100, Q300, Q750, Q650C, Q50a / Fluance Signature Series/ DCM TP160S-CH Subwoofers: Outlaw Ultra X12 (x2) / BIC H100-IIReceiver: Denon AVR-X4500H, AVR-X1400H Integrated Amplifier: Yamaha A-S501/ Fosi Audio TPA3116 mini amp Extras: MiniDSP Umik-1 Amplifier: Emotiva BasX-A300 Next Speakers: Triangle BR03, Revel Concerta2 M16, KEF LS50, Dynaudio Emit M20, Buchardt S400, Triangle Comet ez, KEF R3

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post #23 of 32 Old 01-03-2020, 01:14 PM
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HSU / PSA/ Outlaw have AMAZING customer service


His HSU VTF3 MK5 gets him nearly PB4000 performance for the same price of a PB2000.
And the HSU has a nicer finished cabinet than the PB2000 with nearly the same footprint.
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post #24 of 32 Old 01-03-2020, 01:54 PM
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In max extension I push 109dB @ 20hz (and 103.5dB @ 15hz) + more extension than a PB12 NSD.
But because of the size of the room I prefer the mid-bass of max output.
I debated the PB12-NSD at the time but it lacked the mid-bass punch i was looking for. I later found out i couldn't get it in Canada anyways lol.


In Max extension the PB12NSD has an advantage from 19hz to 40hz while the X12 pulls ahead from 15hz-19hz and 40hz and up.

In Max output the X12 pulls ahead from 23hz to 100hz(substantially above 40hz) while the PB12-NSD has a small 19-23hz advantage.


The PB12-NSD does have a tiny window where it performs better regardless of the X12's tuning but IMO it isn't enough when compared to the sizeable advantage in mid-bass you get from the X12 and deeper extension (if you choose that mode)


regardless the OP made the wise choice of stepping up to a VTF-3 MK5
I wasn't implying the PB12 was better. They both are good at their price point.
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post #25 of 32 Old 01-03-2020, 04:42 PM
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HSU / PSA/ Outlaw have AMAZING customer service


His HSU VTF3 MK5 gets him nearly PB4000 performance for the same price of a PB2000.
HSU does not have the customer service of SVS. They charge and arm and leg for shipping, they offer a 2 year warranty on electronics, and all the above have god awful websites. When your a ID business the very least you could do is have a decent website.
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post #26 of 32 Old 01-03-2020, 05:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Ben Conner View Post
HSU does not have the customer service of SVS. They charge and arm and leg for shipping, they offer a 2 year warranty on electronics, and all the above have god awful websites. When your a ID business the very least you could do is have a decent website.
Hsu has amazing customer service, I've never heard of a single bad experience. You think SVS offers 'free' shipping out of the goodness of their hearts? Heck no. It's built into the price of the subs. In fact, return shipping for all the people who return their subs is also built into the price of SVS subs. You want a longer warranty on the Hsu amp? You can buy one. You're getting a much better value than SVS, so if you want to splurge on the five year amp warranty, you're still coming out ahead. I get it, you bought SVS, you like SVS. That's fine. Just be aware, it's not the only game in town.
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post #27 of 32 Old 01-03-2020, 05:10 PM
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Originally Posted by ratbuddy View Post
Hsu has amazing customer service, I've never heard of a single bad experience. You think SVS offers 'free' shipping out of the goodness of their hearts? Heck no. It's built into the price of the subs. In fact, return shipping for all the people who return their subs is also built into the price of SVS subs. You want a longer warranty on the Hsu amp? You can buy one. You're getting a much better value than SVS, so if you want to splurge on the five year amp warranty, you're still coming out ahead. I get it, you bought SVS, you like SVS. That's fine. Just be aware, it's not the only game in town.


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post #28 of 32 Old 01-03-2020, 05:30 PM
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Originally Posted by ratbuddy View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben Conner View Post
HSU does not have the customer service of SVS. They charge and arm and leg for shipping, they offer a 2 year warranty on electronics, and all the above have god awful websites. When your a ID business the very least you could do is have a decent website.
Hsu has amazing customer service, I've never heard of a single bad experience. You think SVS offers 'free' shipping out of the goodness of their hearts? Heck no. It's built into the price of the subs. In fact, return shipping for all the people who return their subs is also built into the price of SVS subs. You want a longer warranty on the Hsu amp? You can buy one. You're getting a much better value than SVS, so if you want to splurge on the five year amp warranty, you're still coming out ahead. I get it, you bought SVS, you like SVS. That's fine. Just be aware, it's not the only game in town.
+2

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post #29 of 32 Old 01-04-2020, 06:58 AM
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Originally Posted by ratbuddy View Post
Hsu has amazing customer service, I've never heard of a single bad experience. You think SVS offers 'free' shipping out of the goodness of their hearts? Heck no. It's built into the price of the subs. In fact, return shipping for all the people who return their subs is also built into the price of SVS subs. You want a longer warranty on the Hsu amp? You can buy one. You're getting a much better value than SVS, so if you want to splurge on the five year amp warranty, you're still coming out ahead. I get it, you bought SVS, you like SVS. That's fine. Just be aware, it's not the only game in town.
I actaully own several other brands than SVS, and i also have owned HSU in the past. What i think im saying is this, once you buy that extra warranty, and you pay the shipping SVS is no longer a bad value youll find the other brands end up pretty close to the same. I am not saying they are a bad product, but they do a bad job with marketing. I hear the argument they are aimed at enthusiast but no company starts to be aimed at a small sector of potiential buyers they just end up there because they cant figure out how to market. HSU, Rythmik, PSA etc all would be the same "value" as SVS once they attain the same brand recognition.
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post #30 of 32 Old 01-04-2020, 07:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Ben Conner View Post
I actaully own several other brands than SVS, and i also have owned HSU in the past. What i think im saying is this, once you buy that extra warranty, and you pay the shipping SVS is no longer a bad value youll find the other brands end up pretty close to the same. I am not saying they are a bad product, but they do a bad job with marketing. I hear the argument they are aimed at enthusiast but no company starts to be aimed at a small sector of potiential buyers they just end up there because they cant figure out how to market. HSU, Rythmik, PSA etc all would be the same "value" as SVS once they attain the same brand recognition.



Marketing is only good for the sheep minded people who are too lazy to do their own research, sadly that accounts for the vast majority of people.

The hardcore enthusiast (majority on this site) don't give a da#$ about marketing because you end up paying for something that's taking away PERFORMANCE which is the end goal for any/all enthusiast.


I'll always, ALWAYS take the superior product/performance at any given price over a "fancy brochure"
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Speakers: KEF Q100, Q300, Q750, Q650C, Q50a / Fluance Signature Series/ DCM TP160S-CH Subwoofers: Outlaw Ultra X12 (x2) / BIC H100-IIReceiver: Denon AVR-X4500H, AVR-X1400H Integrated Amplifier: Yamaha A-S501/ Fosi Audio TPA3116 mini amp Extras: MiniDSP Umik-1 Amplifier: Emotiva BasX-A300 Next Speakers: Triangle BR03, Revel Concerta2 M16, KEF LS50, Dynaudio Emit M20, Buchardt S400, Triangle Comet ez, KEF R3

Last edited by macgallant; 01-04-2020 at 07:19 AM.
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