Originally Posted by AlGat
Yes, the third graph looks the best to me also. I put a title on each graph, and they are a single FR plus phase is a dashed line on each. Didn't know if phase would come into it, so that is why I included it. And the black smooth line is the mic target, which I left in because it seemed like a good reference or perspective.
Anyway, the third graph was the PB1000 in the two back corners. So just back subwoofers and nothing out front. In that one the towers were set at 50hz, so it will be interesting when I run it again tomorrow with all speakers set at 80hz.
EDIT --- Agreed that the final test is the listening test. So my goal is to find a configuration that I like and then run Audyssey to get them set up right, and then listen.
And I still haven't written off more and bigger subs, but first I need to see where I am at. With the original configuration I was running at -2dB on the processor, and the subwoofer volume knob was at just under 50%. So I had lots more volume, and they really weren't being worked hard - and that is where I started the thread asking if bigger subs made sense if I am running the existing subs at such underutilized volumes.
Originally Posted by AlGat
Thank you for all the input.
I have watched all of the videos you have all provided, and plan to read the set up guide you posted this morning Darth. So far all of your collective advice has been helpful in showing me that this is not nearly as simple as I thought when starting out.
With all the review and reading I see that I made one huge mistake when setting it all up in the first place before all of this ... I corrected the Audyssey distances with measured. After the homework all of you provided, I see that was a mistake and in one of the videos he talked about it specifically as a "no-no". My intuition about that is that distance setting = delay measurements & setting = potential for creating nulls if manually adjusted.
And all of subwoofer placement that I tried was just volume corrected by ear. So I think I need to suck it up and realize that this is going to take more time and effort than I originally thought, and to start over and do a proper Audyssey set up on each configuration before doing FR analysis.
When doing the set up I will watch to see what my % subwoofer gain is on the knob, and the processor dB setting. And I need to refer to that setup guide. That should tell me if I need more powerful subwoofers.
I also think that if the FR curves continue to have the difficult dips after all that, then perhaps I should invest in a miniDSP 2x4HD and see what that does for me.
And finally, after all of that, then I will be in a better place to decide what improvements need to be made.
You have gotten a lot of good advice, and more importantly, you have been very industrious in implementing that advice. I am impressed by how quick you were to try different subwoofer positions, and by how quickly you got up to speed on REW. I also like the fact that you are doing a lot of research!
I have a few thoughts that may be helpful. Room modes can be very complicated, wherever a room has an irregular geometry, as yours does. (Darth was saying something similar.) Room modes typically form, in part, based on the convergence of two walls. You actually have three major rectangles in your room. First, there is the thinner rectangle (with no wall returns at the bottom of the rectangle) which occurs at the front of the room. Second, there is the wider rectangle (with returns) which occurs at the back of the room. Third, there is the entire room.
In retrospect, I think that we should not be surprised that putting subwoofers at both the front and the back of the room doesn't work, and that having subs at the back of the room (within a self-enclosed rectangle) works better. If I wanted to experiment with another subwoofer configuration, I would leave one sub in the back left corner, and try the other one either inside, or just in front of the alcove, to the right front of the listening positions. (That second subwoofer would either be inside the alcove, or facing the listening positions.) That would essentially correspond to diagonal placement within a rectangular-shaped room. I can't tell you whether that will work better, but it is something else you can try.
If you try that new placement, measure with REW, as you have been doing. One thing I would be sure to do, though, is to take at least 6 measurements in a small circle around your head, and then let REW average the results. That will give you a much more accurate representation of the binaural nature of our hearing, than a single measurement at a single point in space will. Sometimes, a bass FR can vary if we measure just a few inches away, and if one ear hears bass better than the other one does in that instance, our brains still register the bass sounds.
Next, once you have gotten the best native response you can, run XT-32. It may be able to help a little if you can give it a little better FR to start with. I would keep the microphone pattern pretty tight, to give Audyssey a more uniform area to EQ. Section II-B of the Guide makes some suggestions on that. (Of course, you will probably want to remeasure after running Audyssey and setting your front crossover to 80Hz.)
Then, I would set my front speakers to 80Hz, and start to experiment with subwoofer boost. You can do that either with or without DEQ engaged. I still suspect that having larger, more powerful ported subwoofers will help you with the lower-frequencies in your room. But, I would expect the combination of a better mid-bass frequency response, and closer proximity to your subwoofers, to immediately increase your chest punch sensations. (Proximity does help with respect to TR.) I would play something like a gun fight scene from one of the John Wick
movies. You are looking for sudden percussive mid-bass sounds.
I think you are on the right track with the things you are doing, and I will be interested to hear how things work out.