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post #1 of 19 Old 01-12-2020, 11:09 AM - Thread Starter
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Small room sub setup

Good day to all. I posted a general request/advice over in the home theater forum but will reiterate some sub ?'s here too. Hope this is okay mods?

10x11x9 room, movies at reference or near reference. Music pretty loud as well: rock, blues, contemporary jazz, a bit electronic.
Looking at dual subs for around 2k. Sealed or ported? This room has one doorway in lower left corner. Can be left open or sealed. This will be part of 5.2 system.
House built 1923, suspended wood floors and lath/plaster. I would like to have plenty of headroom (right term?) but not waste too much as I will be using this room for say 5 years or more. Example: don't need a Ferrari to drive on city side streets. What sub gives me enough and a little more for that room but no overkill? Also 4 12 in subs or 2 15in?

Open to new ideas and critique. Thanks much!
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post #2 of 19 Old 01-12-2020, 11:14 AM
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post #3 of 19 Old 01-12-2020, 11:26 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks much @rhelliott2 I will keep up with that list and see what recommendations come in to help me make the best decision possible, without analysis paralysis hopefully.
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post #4 of 19 Old 01-12-2020, 11:30 AM - Thread Starter
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I should also add 50/50 music/HT
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post #5 of 19 Old 01-12-2020, 11:31 AM
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That's a very small room on a suspended floor. IMO a pair of Monoprice Monolith 10" or SVS PB-1000 for ~$1K/pr, shipped, should give you what you're looking for. A step up from either of those would be a pair of HSU VTF-2 MK5 for $607/ea., shipped.
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post #6 of 19 Old 01-12-2020, 11:37 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks @eljaycanuck . Are you recommending maybe going smaller and higher quality subs? I am looking at all the ID companies as they seem the best. Also for reference I had 2 Klipsch R 115SW in room in 2018 and didn't think that was too much. If anything I wouldn't mind more
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post #7 of 19 Old 01-12-2020, 12:02 PM
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I would talk to Tom to get you to budget or stretch a bit and get the one S3010 and the S3000i. They are basically the same. The S3010 is the updated model. The amp is built in hose rather than outsourced so rated with higher output, has XLR imputs and 12volt trigger. These sound incredible with everything and with the shallow roll off in the lower frequencies and small room room gain be insane with movies, Mine are with concrete floor and larger space. The only problem I see is how much plaster repair in your house you will have to do when you move.
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post #8 of 19 Old 01-12-2020, 12:03 PM
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I would get 2 HSU VTF3 MK5 on sale for $855 each delivered. You had 2 fifteen inch Klipsch and you want more than that.
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post #9 of 19 Old 01-12-2020, 12:08 PM - Thread Starter
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@Joshua Chmiel I definitely will chat Tom up. Going to check out those models now. And yes @spyboy like a lot of good quality bass. HSU is high on my list for bang for buck!
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post #10 of 19 Old 01-12-2020, 12:51 PM
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I think it just depends on what your looking for. Your room screams for sealed which will give you extension possibly down below 10Hz depending on your choice but will give up some SPL below 35Hz down to what ever port tuned sub you may choose. The fact two 15" Klipsch was not to much and you do like to dial things up,,,, maybe SPL trumps extension,, only you can answer that.

As mentioned either the ported 15" HSU/PSA's will take your Klipsch's to the next level as far as extension goes. With room gain the HSU for example should have loads of SPL down to the lower teens imo while still providing lots up top.

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post #11 of 19 Old 01-12-2020, 01:03 PM - Thread Starter
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@indebtbassfreak yeah maybe I do value SPL a little over super low extension. I'm really ok down to 20hz with excellent output. Is below 20hz qualified as ULF? Yeah I think the HSU 15in ported would prolly add 3db over the Klipsch 115's from 20-40hz, that is just a guesstimate. Thanks much.
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post #12 of 19 Old 01-12-2020, 01:25 PM
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In that small space i'm assuming you are just set up for one primary MLP? The Klipsh 15" are well known for having strong mid-bass capabilities. Between your comment not been concerned with frequencies below 20Hz and wanting more output than a pair of 15" Klipsh's i'm not sure what your looking for in your 2K budget? To get a big bump in output above 20Hz you may need to jump to 18". In that case you could look at a single PSA 3601 at $1999. If you just have a single MLP it should be easy to maximize frequencies throughout the bandwidth. You will not only get a healthy bump in midbass but a big bump in ULF.

Maybe you havent experienced good ULF yet but its addictive. Anyway two HSU's really are very hard to beat for under 2K, If you need more than those in that room then you are a true basshead and welcome to the rabbit hole!!!
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-Funk 21.0LX Master/Slave combo 4800 watts RMS/9600watts (peak)-
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post #13 of 19 Old 01-12-2020, 01:33 PM - Thread Starter
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@indebtbassfreak yup just me and the wife so will measure Audyssey XT32 (by the way anyone Denon or Marantz matter for choice?) when I get AVR for 2 feet or so around MLP. The Klipsch were very strong in the chest slam for sure. Not bad for low HZ either but not the best value when compared to the ID companies in my opinion. I thought of getting one really great sub but wondered if 2 good subs would be better to smooth response especially in a near square room like mine. I'm open to more ULF by the way! Down the rabbit hole we go! Thanks much for the responses.
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post #14 of 19 Old 01-13-2020, 09:00 AM - Thread Starter
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Last year I spoke with Tom at PSA and recently with Enrico at Rythmik and both recommend sealed for my room. I am finding that sealed versus ported is somewhat subjective for my room depending on what I value most. Also looks like to 15 inch will be the best option to get the levels of SPL I would like. I have been on this board reading for a long time but just recently joined. I would love some feedback from @mthomas47 and the like to see what their thoughts are. I want to have my ducks in a row as best I can before I pull the trigger. Thanks much to all for your help.
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post #15 of 19 Old 01-13-2020, 01:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Huss View Post
Good day to all. I posted a general request/advice over in the home theater forum but will reiterate some sub ?'s here too. Hope this is okay mods?

10x11x9 room, movies at reference or near reference. Music pretty loud as well: rock, blues, contemporary jazz, a bit electronic.
Looking at dual subs for around 2k. Sealed or ported? This room has one doorway in lower left corner. Can be left open or sealed. This will be part of 5.2 system.
House built 1923, suspended wood floors and lath/plaster. I would like to have plenty of headroom (right term?) but not waste too much as I will be using this room for say 5 years or more. Example: don't need a Ferrari to drive on city side streets. What sub gives me enough and a little more for that room but no overkill? Also 4 12 in subs or 2 15in?

Open to new ideas and critique. Thanks much!
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Thanks @eljaycanuck . Are you recommending maybe going smaller and higher quality subs? I am looking at all the ID companies as they seem the best. Also for reference I had 2 Klipsch R 115SW in room in 2018 and didn't think that was too much. If anything I wouldn't mind more
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Originally Posted by Steve Huss View Post
Last year I spoke with Tom at PSA and recently with Enrico at Rythmik and both recommend sealed for my room. I am finding that sealed versus ported is somewhat subjective for my room depending on what I value most. Also looks like to 15 inch will be the best option to get the levels of SPL I would like. I have been on this board reading for a long time but just recently joined. I would love some feedback from @mthomas47 and the like to see what their thoughts are. I want to have my ducks in a row as best I can before I pull the trigger. Thanks much to all for your help.

Hi Steve,

I'm not sure how much I can help, but I will certainly be glad to try. You have a very small room (~ 1000^3), on a suspended wood floor, which would ordinarily suggest sealed subs. But, you like to listen at Reference, and you have had dual ported 15" Klipsch subs in that room, and wouldn't have minded a little more firepower. I have known other people who preferred powerful ported subs, even in very small rooms, so that simply shows the wide range of listener preferences that we may experience.

I don't normally suggest this, as a routine recommendation, but in your case I am going to recommend that you order a calibrated UMIK-1, and that you download REW. REW is a free download, and I have seen some people get up to basic operating speed with REW in as little as a day. The following thread will be all you need to get started:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/91-au...et-graphs.html

The reason that I am recommending REW is that you have a very difficult room, almost cubical in shape, and I can't be sure that you weren't experiencing significant cancellation, at some frequencies, when you had the two Klipsch subs in your room. They are only 400 watts RMS, but they are still pretty decent 15" ported subs. So, I don't know whether to recommend one larger sub, or two slightly smaller ones, even if ported subs turn out to be the right way to go.

I think you need to be able to measure your frequency response to help you to pick the best location for a single sub, and to help you to determine whether dual subs will improve your overall frequency response. At that point, you will also be able to tell more about the whole sealed/ported question.

One of my concerns, if you buy sealed subs, is that the tactile sensations will be quite different. At low-frequencies, ported subs produce much more TR (tactile response) than sealed subs playing at equivalent loudness levels. The ports themselves create additional particle velocity. If you are used to that sensation from the Klipsch subs, and wouldn't have minded having more of it, then I think you might miss that sensation with sealed subs.

Sealed subs will pressurize your room at low-frequencies, with sensations that are similar to what you would feel when an airplane pressurizes. But, the TR won't be nearly as inherently overt as it is with ported subs. And, low-tuned ported subs will be even more impactful in that regard than higher-tuned ported subs. So many choices!

I like the recommendation for dual HSU VTF-3 MK5's. They would fit within your budget, and they would give you a nice incremental upgrade from the Klipsch subs. But, it would just be an incremental upgrade, and we still have the issue of whether dual subs were really helping you in that small room. Perhaps an even more powerful single sub would work even better. That's why I think you need REW.

I think that my personal recommendation would be to buy a single SVS PC4000. That is a cylinder sub, with a small footprint, which might be helpful in your room. (It can also lie on its side behind your couch if necessary.) It has three tuning options: Sealed, Standard (20Hz) ported, and Extended (16Hz) ported mode. That is similar to what the HSU offers, but it is more powerful and it goes deeper.

The most important reason I am recommending this is because SVS offers free 45-day trial periods. The free return is built into the price, so you don't have to feel guilty if you do end-up returning it. I think that being able to move the sub around your room, while measuring with REW to find the best FR will be helpful. Then, it will be equally helpful to try the sealed mode and the two different ported modes to determine what you really prefer in your room. (You will need to rerun Audyssey each time you change modes.)

If you discover that dual subs will work best in your room (and you can use REW's room simulator to help you make that decision) then you can always return the PC4000 for a full refund. At that point, you might buy two sealed subs, or two MK5's, depending on your experiments with sealed and ported. Or, you might determine that you really like having one more powerful ported sub, with a lower port tune. At that point, you might keep the PC4000, or pivot to another low-tuned ported sub.

As consumers, we currently have more really good subwoofer choices than ever before. But, we still need to be able to make informed decisions about our own rooms, and our individual bass preferences, to know which ones to select. I think that the process I have described will give you the information you need to do that, and then you will still have several good choices available to you. But, the first thing you need to do is to narrow the range of options in an analytical way.

I hope this helps! It took awhile to write.

Regards,
Mike
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GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.

Last edited by mthomas47; 01-13-2020 at 01:12 PM.
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post #16 of 19 Old 01-13-2020, 02:51 PM - Thread Starter
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I deeply appreciate your time and energy in responding to me Mike @mthomas47 . I no longer have any of the previous home theater setup and am starting from scratch again. I can say that I did learn quite a bit from that endeavor. Before I did have the 2 Klipsch 15's I only had the one and I can definitely say that 2 was better. Possible cancellation still but it was definitely better with 2. Did sub crawl both times for setup. I should probably qualify that I believe I had a small null around say 30-35hz which later with the second sub and Audyssey XT32 mitigated pretty well (started with AVR that was just base Audyssey). I know it was that particular frequency because it is a reference track I use (Pat Metheny - Cathedral in a Suitcase) to see where I'm at re bass response at that 30-35hz area. So when I said I would like more bass I was really referring to more effortless bass (the kind that seems to just spill out like water, buzzzzzz... )if you will at that certain frequency area. I may have a null 40-20hz or that is my area of concern. Where does ULF begin? I may be ok there, more later on that in post. Maybe not that large of spectrum but somewhere in that frequency range the second sub and XT32 helped alot but that is where I want more if possible. I know there is no way to really EQ your way out of a severe dip but believe I have a null based on being able to improve with 2nd sub and better room EQ Chest slam mid range was very tight and heavy as evidenced when playing Fleetwood Mac's I'm So Afraid live version. No issues there. It is the room I have to work with so I know there are certain limitations but am looking for confirmation that am doing all I can to make the best of it. If I do that then I can be satisfied with what I have. I can post current pics so others can get an idea. It has a nice large area rug, good heavy drapes, good wall art/hangings and plenty of solid furniture in lieu of proper room treatment. Clap test is pretty good too. The ULF however was at a point where the couch would feel like I was bumping up and down (think Exorcist furniture hopping up and down lol) when playing Horizon Zero Dawn. So I feel like ULF was fine. In fact I like some of that but prolly am more concerned above 20hz.

I am curious and like the looks and easy maneuverability of the PC4000 but is it isn't much more for me to get 2 flagship Hsu ported subs too! Anyone who got thru all of that get yourself a beer. I appreciate everyone's suggestions and help. Best, Steve
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post #17 of 19 Old 01-13-2020, 03:30 PM - Thread Starter
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@mthomas47 realized that you are recommending SVS for their return policy. Will definitely consider! Thanks again, Steve
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post #18 of 19 Old 01-14-2020, 01:45 AM
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.......
Just want to thank you for your another valuable insights (I have the same room size as the OP). It really amazes every time I see your response with so much information to learn from (sometimes I feel like I'm reading a book ).
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post #19 of 19 Old 01-14-2020, 04:21 AM
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@mthomas47 realized that you are recommending SVS for their return policy. Will definitely consider! Thanks again, Steve
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Originally Posted by LGWGM View Post
Just want to thank you for your another valuable insights (I have the same room size as the OP). It really amazes every time I see your response with so much information to learn from (sometimes I feel like I'm reading a book ).

Thank you both for your nice comments, and you are very welcome for any help I can give you!

Regards,
Mike

GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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