I want to upgrade from my 2003 SVS PB12+/2. - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 50 Old 01-19-2020, 04:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Looking to upgrade from SVS PB12+/2 to PSA, JTR, or Rythmik.

Hello,

I'm running an older model SVS PB12Plus/2 I bought in 2003 and it is still performing very well. However, I feel like I need both more ULF and a higher end sound signature. I am not familiar enough with audio lingo to describe what I mean so I'll try and explain in my terms and hope it translates well enough. At the time I bought my SVS it was at the very limit of what I could afford and ever since, I've always wondered how much different the Ultra line would sound. I've been to a few home theater meets and have been able to listen to higher end subs and the sound is just different from what I have. I realize room acoustics is a big part of that, but I also believe that there's a difference in sound between my SVS plus and say a Seaton Submersive. The most recent thing pushing me toward an upgrade is a meet I went to in Michigan where this gentlemen's bass was just phenomenal but not just in SPL, there were sounds I know I'm not hearing at my house. The demo that really stood out was from Deep Water Horizon, when the oil rig finally explodes. The final couple of seconds of the explosion was so full of volume and a lower sound than I hear at home. At my house, during the explosion, it's a loud rumble like you'd expect, but the last couple of seconds there is no difference from the beginning of the rumble. At the meet, the sound pressure increased and sounded like a lower frequency rumble at the very end. More dynamic is perhaps what I'm trying to describe?

My room is less than ideal acoustically, but I hope to buy a house within the next 5 years. I'm currently using a single car attached garage as both my movie and game room. The ceiling is 7-½’, the width is 11’ and the depth of the garage is 21’ deep so approximately 1730 cu. Ft. Inside the room, I have 6 pinball machines and some shelving.

My receiver is a Denon X4400 with Audyssey XT32. Mains are Ascend Sierra 2's, no center, side surrounds are Philharmonic bookshelf speakers, rear surrounds are Axiom QS8's, and 4 Atmos ceiling speakers are RSL C34E's.

I’ve been browsing the PSA, JTR, and Rythmik Owner’s threads and when I read them, I want to buy one of their subs. The problem is, when I jump to another thread, some of the comments makes me want to buy that brand’s sub. And so on and so on.

From my reading, there are two models I’m really interested in: the TV36ipal, and the JTR RS2. I haven’t yet really settled on to a specific Rythmik model. Another reason I sway between models is because I have not heard anything from either of these brands before so going off word of mouth when most comments are positive makes it difficult to settle on one choice. There are a couple of local guys that said they will demo their subs for me, which will help if I ever get some free time. There are a couple of different Rythmiks I’ll be able to demo, and I’ll be able to demo a PSA sub. No chance for experience with a JTR sub that I’m aware of though.

After doing some measuring the JTR RS2 dimensions would allow me to place it where my current SVS is positioned, which is under the table my TV is on, that I sit about 5’ from. The TV36ipal might fit in the same space if I laid it down on its side. I can’t fit a Cap 4000ULF in any of its configurations in my room, it’s just too large. Since I haven’t zeroed in on a Rythmik model, I haven’t looked into the dimensions as thoroughly of their subs yet. I don’t necessarily have to place the sub where the current sub is, but I don’t have a lot of choices due to all of the stuff I crammed into this room.

Now let’s get to why I like the idea of the two models I mentioned. The TV36ipal sounds like it is a best of both worlds sub, with very good ULF and nice chest pumping bass in the upper frequencies. The PSA thread owner’s has seemed very enthusiastic about this sub and the iPal drivers in particular. The PSA thread is also the most active. Ever since I’ve heard about the JTR Cap 4000, I’ve been reading up on their products. It seems they are the ULF kings at the moment. Like I said, the 4000 is too big of a beast for my room, but the RS2 with its smaller cabinet and sealed design would let if fit in my room. And after watching Youthman’s latest vid on him running duals in his room, it got me a little excited about the prospect of owning an RS2. As for the Rythmiks, the comparison thread had I think the FV25 vs a JTR 2400, and even though the FV25 is rated down to 12Hz it sounded like the JTR was more capable at the very lowest frequencies. But, in the Rythmik owner’s thread, the way people love the direct servo sound has me very interested in checking them out. And I hear they’re close to bringing out a GH28.

As for other brands, I know I said I always wondered what the Ultra line would sound like compared to my current SVS, but from all accounts I’ve read the choices I have considered so far far exceed SVS in the ULF department.

My listening tastes are 90% movies, 10% music. When I do listen to music, my top choice is electronic style with Bassnectar being one of my favorites. Although I do like classic rock, 80’s, some 90’s, older rap, a little jazz, and classical. I don’t know if it’s my age, my I don’t like a lot of today’s pop music.

Although I mentioned two models I'm excited about, I’m open to any advice you guys have for me.

Thanks for your time!

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post #2 of 50 Old 01-19-2020, 06:58 PM
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Do you have a budget?
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post #3 of 50 Old 01-19-2020, 07:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Do you have a budget?
Yes, $3500.
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post #4 of 50 Old 01-19-2020, 08:44 PM
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I would add dual Rythmik FV18's to your list, I have them and they are great for HT and music. You'd probably even find just one more than sufficient for your space, which would leave you well under budget! They provide extension, output and articulation, along with a myriad of configuration choices.


As for the JTR and PSA RS2 both are excellent as well. The RS2 is such a beast you'd probably forget it's sealed and not as efficient down low as the ported choices. Any of these subs would be a substantial upgrade in every respect.
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post #5 of 50 Old 01-20-2020, 12:29 PM
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Get dual Rythmik FV18's.
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post #6 of 50 Old 01-20-2020, 03:33 PM
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^^^This for sure if you're going duals (FV18 with paper cone). Otherwise, I think that the new TV36IPAL will hands down be the most dynamic from everything that I'm hearing/reading. And in a room your size, I don't think you'd ever have to push it hard enough to the point of distortion. So all you should hear is that sweet clean bass!

Can you tell which one that I want?
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post #7 of 50 Old 01-20-2020, 06:41 PM - Thread Starter
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I wasn't planning on going duals originally, but with 3 straight recommendations of Rythmik FV18's, I'll definitely add them to my list. Would dual FV18's outperform the TV36 or RS2 in low bass frequencies? Mid-bass?

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So all you should hear is that sweet clean bass!

Can you tell which one that I want?
Yep! LOL
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post #8 of 50 Old 01-20-2020, 07:29 PM
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Originally Posted by geocab View Post
I wasn't planning on going duals originally, but with 3 straight recommendations of Rythmik FV18's, I'll definitely add them to my list. Would dual FV18's outperform the TV36 or RS2 in low bass frequencies? Mid-bass?

Yep! LOL
Hi,

As a former owner of dual PB12Plus/2, they were excellent in there days. And then got dual PB13-Ultra, that were better. I cannot comment at all about the RS2, knowing nothing at all other than JTR are also excellent subs!!!

While I just replace my dual PB13, with dual Rythmik FV18 and still in the process of playing with them. I must point out that all 3 choices, would be great upgrade over your current subs.

The TV36 have excellent mid bass, while the FV18 are excellent for lack of a better word no ringing in the bass. Subs at those level, all have their Pro and Con depending your preference in sound signature.


Darth
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post #9 of 50 Old 01-20-2020, 07:33 PM
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TV3612 ( non iPal) save the cash and buy a 2nd TV3612 later on.
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post #10 of 50 Old 01-20-2020, 08:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by geocab View Post
I wasn't planning on going duals originally, but with 3 straight recommendations of Rythmik FV18's, I'll definitely add them to my list. Would dual FV18's outperform the TV36 or RS2 in low bass frequencies? Mid-bass?



Yep! LOL
To be honest, there hasn't been any measured numbers posted on the PSA's as of yet, so it's really hard to say exactly. From what I've read, the they are mid-bass monsters, so I believe they will have the advantage over the Rythmiks in that category. However, the FV18's do have the lower port tune (12Hz vs. 14Hz for the PSA TV Neo & IPAL), so a couple of those should give you some excellent ULF ouput.

As @darthray stated, there is always going to be a give & take where subs are concerned. Although, with the PSA's giving you that "best of both worlds" aspect, it just makes them so damn enticing. Lol

I should also add, if I were to go with duals in that $3K price range, it would 100% be the FV18's (with paper cone). Otherwise I would get the single TV36 IPAL, and maybe add a second down the road.

Lastly, as @rhelliott2 mentioned about the TV3612 (Neo) vs. TV36 IPAL. You could definitely save some cash by going with those. So far the main difference reported between the two are that the IPALs give you a bit more headroom(IIRC).

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post #11 of 50 Old 01-21-2020, 09:13 AM
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Given your room size, all of your choices will provide more midbass than you'll likely use, so the question of which has more is rather moot. The RS2 being sealed would have an advantage below 12hz or thereabouts relative to the other two.
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post #12 of 50 Old 01-21-2020, 09:39 AM
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Yes the TV36 has midbass in spades... but that isn't the only benefit. The NEO/IPAL drivers are also very low distortion like the Rythmik. The 18" IPAL looks to be just as capable as Rythmiks 18" driver on the low end and the NEO is slightly less capable. The FV18 is 12.5hz tune, the TV36 is 13.5hz tune. You get dual drivers with the TV36, so I am going to speculate that the TV36 holds a output advantage everywhere. Biggest advantage will be as you get above 30hz. The FV18 is also quite a bit cheaper. A pair of the paper cones is a solid option at their price point. I doubt they would leave you wanting more unless you are an extreme bass head then I would go dual TV36IPAL or FV25's.

If your are close to Arizona there is a guys selling a brand new pair of FV25's never opened for super cheap.
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post #13 of 50 Old 01-21-2020, 10:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darthray View Post
Hi,

As a former owner of dual PB12Plus/2, they were excellent in there days. And then got dual PB13-Ultra, that were better. I cannot comment at all about the RS2, knowing nothing at all other than JTR are also excellent subs!!!

While I just replace my dual PB13, with dual Rythmik FV18 and still in the process of playing with them. I must point out that all 3 choices, would be great upgrade over your current subs.

The TV36 have excellent mid bass, while the FV18 are excellent for lack of a better word no ringing in the bass. Subs at those level, all have their Pro and Con depending your preference in sound signature.


Darth
I'm curious how much did Dual FV18's cost/shipping/tax roughly to Canada? $6000-$6500?

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post #14 of 50 Old 01-21-2020, 05:05 PM
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I'm curious how much did Dual FV18's cost/shipping/tax roughly to Canada? $6000-$6500?

My two FV18, cost me a total of $5550.00 CDN. And can broke down as follow;
Exchange rate of 0.75 on the US dollar at the time.
The two FV18 cost in US fund.
$800 US for shipping to my door, that included all taxes (see note), broker fee.

I do find the $800 US, shipping charge to be very reasonable. Since those subs weight 180lbs each, and ship by a freight company. And also all cost were included in the shipping charge, that did include taxes and broker fee.

Note: Since I live in Alberta, and we do not have a provincial. My taxes was for 5%, most other provinces are 15%. And would increase the cost, base on the value of the FV18 after the exchange rate. I would say, $6000 would be a good ballpark for where you live.

Note#2: Once the subs arrived in Canada, the broker company did contact me for a release number. I simply explain to them, that all my fee were included and redirected them to Rythmik. And my subs were release the next day, and were at my house a couple days later.


Darth
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post #15 of 50 Old 01-21-2020, 05:52 PM - Thread Starter
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I have a question about the FV18 with paper cone. On Rythmik's site it says the paper cone has 3db more output than the metal cone, but that comes at the cost of higher distortion. Is the distortion difference even noticeable? Or is that something to not consider worrying about?

The only thing in my budget that I can do duals on is the FV18. Otherwise, I'd get a single RS2 or TV36ipal, or now TV3612 as suggested above. However, if I did the 3612 to save money, in my head I'd probably question over and over on whether or not I'm missing anything not going with the iPal. Sort of like when I got the PB12+/2 and always wondered what an Ultra would be like. Is that an apples to oranges comparison?

It's amazing how difficult it can be to decide on something like this. By the time I zero in on what to go for, Rythmik will probably announce specs on a G28 and I'll go back to being undecided.
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post #16 of 50 Old 01-21-2020, 06:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by geocab View Post
I have a question about the FV18 with paper cone. On Rythmik's site it says the paper cone has 3db more output than the metal cone, but that comes at the cost of higher distortion. Is the distortion difference even noticeable? Or is that something to not consider worrying about?

The only thing in my budget that I can do duals on is the FV18. Otherwise, I'd get a single RS2 or TV36ipal, or now TV3612 as suggested above. However, if I did the 3612 to save money, in my head I'd probably question over and over on whether or not I'm missing anything not going with the iPal. Sort of like when I got the PB12+/2 and always wondered what an Ultra would be like. Is that an apples to oranges comparison?

It's amazing how difficult it can be to decide on something like this. By the time I zero in on what to go for, Rythmik will probably announce specs on a G28 and I'll go back to being undecided.
Myself, I went with Aluminum cone. Since I never play at reference level, normally around -13 to -10dB from reference level. And use a +2-3dB boost from my AVP. In another word, around -7dB from reference max. And honestly, more than I need for my room situation (12w X 18L X 8T feet, 1728^ft).

The FV18 unpack weight 160lbs, and are a challenge to move around as a one man operation. And I don't even want to think, what it would be like moving those dual 18 inchers around


Darth

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post #17 of 50 Old 01-21-2020, 06:35 PM
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Maybe get a umik-1 and run some REW before jumping into the deep end. Or, do the right thing and get the MiniDSP 2x4HD at the same time so you can apply some EQ to the bass? I'm all for spending other people's money and all, but maybe see what exactly you're dealing with so you can gauge the change with objective data... You might find that you can get significant improvement with what you've already got.

Besides, if you double up on subs, you'll want to EQ them, so I'd suggest getting the MiniDSP and mic and play around so you know how to best optimize the bass on the eventual sub upgrade.

MiniDSP 2x4HD, UMIK-1, REW... The holy trinity for running multiple subs.
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post #18 of 50 Old 01-21-2020, 06:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Maybe get a umik-1 and run some REW before jumping into the deep end. Or, do the right thing and get the MiniDSP 2x4HD at the same time so you can apply some EQ to the bass? I'm all for spending other people's money and all, but maybe see what exactly you're dealing with so you can gauge the change with objective data... You might find that you can get significant improvement with what you've already got.

Besides, if you double up on subs, you'll want to EQ them, so I'd suggest getting the MiniDSP and mic and play around so you know how to best optimize the bass on the eventual sub upgrade. [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/wink.gif[/IMG]

This just showed up today. I will also order the 2x4HD this week.
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post #19 of 50 Old 01-21-2020, 07:52 PM
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Originally Posted by geocab View Post
I have a question about the FV18 with paper cone. On Rythmik's site it says the paper cone has 3db more output than the metal cone, but that comes at the cost of higher distortion. Is the distortion difference even noticeable? Or is that something to not consider worrying about?

The only thing in my budget that I can do duals on is the FV18. Otherwise, I'd get a single RS2 or TV36ipal, or now TV3612 as suggested above. However, if I did the 3612 to save money, in my head I'd probably question over and over on whether or not I'm missing anything not going with the iPal. Sort of like when I got the PB12+/2 and always wondered what an Ultra would be like. Is that an apples to oranges comparison?

It's amazing how difficult it can be to decide on something like this. By the time I zero in on what to go for, Rythmik will probably announce specs on a G28 and I'll go back to being undecided.
The "distortion" everybody refers to is likely 2nd order. 2nd order harmonics are not offensive sounding, rather it makes the bass sound thicker or warmer...(insert your favorite audiophile term). This type of bass is normally preferred for movie bass and the ultra low distortion stuff is preferred for music. Now don't take this out of context because a lot of this is subjective and folks use either design for both sources.

IMHO, if I was buying subs geared for Music as first priority, I would probably go with a Aluminum come Rythmik.

If I was buying subs geared for maximum ULF I would go JTR.

IF I was buying subs that can do both well, it would be Rythmik Paper cone or PSA Neo/IPAL.

That is not to say any of these mentioned above won't work for everything. I am just pointing out what I would do based on each subs strengths.
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post #20 of 50 Old 01-21-2020, 08:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by geocab View Post
I have a question about the FV18 with paper cone. On Rythmik's site it says the paper cone has 3db more output than the metal cone, but that comes at the cost of higher distortion. Is the distortion difference even noticeable? Or is that something to not consider worrying about?

The only thing in my budget that I can do duals on is the FV18. Otherwise, I'd get a single RS2 or TV36ipal, or now TV3612 as suggested above. However, if I did the 3612 to save money, in my head I'd probably question over and over on whether or not I'm missing anything not going with the iPal. Sort of like when I got the PB12+/2 and always wondered what an Ultra would be like. Is that an apples to oranges comparison?

It's amazing how difficult it can be to decide on something like this. By the time I zero in on what to go for, Rythmik will probably announce specs on a G28 and I'll go back to being undecided.

Yes it's difficult. Sometimes having a lot of good choices doesn't make things any easier. And I would say your IPAL/Ultra comparison is apt.


For someone who's 90% movies the paper cone is a no brainer if you go with the FV18. Whatever subtle quality differences there might be with aluminum are dwarfed by the extra output the paper cone provides. Brian has mentioned that under ideal listening conditions (e.g. a quiet treated room) the additional clarity aluminum provides might be apparent, but the edge is slight.
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post #21 of 50 Old 01-21-2020, 08:12 PM - Thread Starter
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post #22 of 50 Old 01-21-2020, 08:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by geocab View Post
I have a question about the FV18 with paper cone. On Rythmik's site it says the paper cone has 3db more output than the metal cone, but that comes at the cost of higher distortion. Is the distortion difference even noticeable? Or is that something to not consider worrying about?

The only thing in my budget that I can do duals on is the FV18. Otherwise, I'd get a single RS2 or TV36ipal, or now TV3612 as suggested above. However, if I did the 3612 to save money, in my head I'd probably question over and over on whether or not I'm missing anything not going with the iPal. Sort of like when I got the PB12+/2 and always wondered what an Ultra would be like. Is that an apples to oranges comparison?

It's amazing how difficult it can be to decide on something like this. By the time I zero in on what to go for, Rythmik will probably announce specs on a G28 and I'll go back to being undecided.

Yes it's difficult. Sometimes having a lot of good choices doesn't make things any easier. And I would say your IPAL/Ultra comparison is apt.


For someone who's 90% movies the paper cone is a no brainer if you go with the FV18. Whatever subtle quality differences there might be with aluminum are dwarfed by the extra output the paper cone provides. Brian has mentioned that under ideal listening conditions (e.g. a quiet treated room) the additional clarity aluminum provides might be apparent, but the edge is slight.
There are definitely things I like about the idea of all three of my choices. Right now I'd say, it's a close race between the TV36 and dual paper cone Rythmiks. The JTR is still in the running though. Like I said in my original post, I do want more ULF.

I have to learn how to begin with REW now that I have my mic and do some sweeps to see where I'm at. But I have a busy next few days so I don't know when I'll get a chance.
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post #23 of 50 Old 01-21-2020, 08:38 PM
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This just showed up today. I will also order the 2x4HD this week.
Right on. It's easier done than explained, as far as running REW goes... And it's stupid simple to import filters into a miniDSP from REW also.
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post #24 of 50 Old 01-21-2020, 09:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Right on. It's easier done than explained, as far as running REW goes... And it's stupid simple to import filters into a miniDSP from REW also.
It sounds simple to use until I start reading the Getting Started with REW document and get lost in the beginning.
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post #25 of 50 Old 01-21-2020, 10:41 PM
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It sounds simple to use until I start reading the Getting Started with REW document and get lost in the beginning.
Download the cal file for umik-1. Plug it into your computer.
Open REW, when it detects the umik-1 and asks if you have the cal file, choose yes and tell it to use the txt file you downloaded.

The right way is to use an HDMI cable from the computer to the receiver so you can select individual channels to drive, but I didn't have an adapter to go from thunderbolt to HDMI on hand, so I use Airplay to my AppleTV. Go to measure, set the sweep you want to run, and run it. You'll probably want to change the crossover settings and such, but it's all very system specific. Like I said, it's easier done than explained, though the REW documentation is, like the program itself, phenomenal.

I played around for about 2 hours, including setting up my MiniDSP 2x4HD and wifi adapter, and got my subs EQ'd as follows. That's zero smoothing, some cuts, a small 5dB house curve, and whatnot. I've definitely still got work to do yet, but I was able to get that in about 2 hours from start to "finish" after work last night. That's with a pair of HSU TN1220HO subs powered from a single 500W amp in a 12x20x7 room with subs just placed in rear corners 15 years ago and not touched. I have done zero optimization other than phase and some mild EQ. When I get my 2nd amp tomorrow, I'll be able to play with delays on each sub, and will start moving them around to kill the null at 23Hz.

Now, I'm not saying you'll get results like mine with a single sub, but you should be able to flatten it out (EQ out peaks, don't try to EQ nulls). With REW, you'll be able to find the best position for your existing sub, and when you get the miniDSP, you'll be able to optimize what you have before upgraditis kicks in and you go and get new subs. Note I said subs, as in plural, because more is better.
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post #26 of 50 Old 01-22-2020, 05:42 PM
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Regarding REW watch a few YouTube videos on how to get started. Then try a few measurements. After that reading the instructions will make much more sense to you.

Your current SVS sub is powerful, as you likely know was designed by it Tom V who runs PSA. You should reach out to him and get his insights. He may be able to suggest adding one of his current PSA subs to your existing SVS. Contacting SVS will also give you some insights.

The mini dsp with REW is a powerful combination that will allow you a significant level of control over the subwoofers. I would not be so quick to assume that changing out your current SVS sub is the answer. The addition of a second sub with some tuning may be all you need and you can always replace the old SVS Sub later if you find you are not satisfied.
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post #27 of 50 Old 01-23-2020, 06:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Did a measurement of my SVS @-9 MV with Audyssey turned off. I'll have to lower mic gain maybe because I clip the reading if I go higher in MV. I used the recommended 9.9db setting.

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post #28 of 50 Old 01-23-2020, 09:33 PM
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Change your vertical axis to 5 dB increments. What tune are you running your sub? It looks like the 20hz tune.

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post #29 of 50 Old 01-24-2020, 07:35 AM - Thread Starter
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Change your vertical axis to 5 dB increments. What tune are you running your sub? It looks like the 20hz tune.
Thanks, I'll change the increments after work. On my computer screen, it was in 10 dB increments, but the photo didn't show up the same way. And you are correct that I have it at 20Hz tune. I lost the other plug so I can't change to 16Hz without getting another. If that's even possible.
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post #30 of 50 Old 01-24-2020, 09:09 AM
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Thanks, I'll change the increments after work. On my computer screen, it was in 10 dB increments, but the photo didn't show up the same way. And you are correct that I have it at 20Hz tune. I lost the other plug so I can't change to 16Hz without getting another. If that's even possible.
I used to own that sub and it hit max 120 dB nearfield in 25 hz tune in my room. I always thought it sound best in 16hz mode as I prefer deeper bass added to the mix. I placed it in the right front corner of my room and it would produce about 110 dB but I forgot which tune. I built large subs with an 18 inch driver and one would produce 116 dB in the same front right corner but tuned to 13hz and extension into the single digits. So it would take at least two SVS subs to match it but the 18 would still be lower tuned and reach deeper. Now that was with a 20 mm x-max driver.

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