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post #31 of 51 Old 02-04-2020, 06:05 PM
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Originally Posted by mbroadus View Post
Do the SVS isolation feet work well on hard wood floors?


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I don’t know? Don’t have them. I personally think it depends. A pad or rug may work better in my limited experience.

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That’s not really how bass behaves.


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I know, this even contradicts myself, but, somehow, it does. My guess, by ear, is that there is either some part of the sound or possibly the actual air that bounces and easily slides off the shiny surface and causes a higher pitched reflection.
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post #32 of 51 Old 02-04-2020, 06:15 PM
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Originally Posted by New7.1 View Post
I don’t know? Don’t have them. I personally think it depends. A pad or rug may work better in my limited experience.







I know, this even contradicts myself, but, somehow, it does. My guess, by ear, is that there is either some part of the sound or possibly the actual air that bounces and easily slides off the shiny surface and causes a higher pitched reflection.

The floor substrate is virtually irrelevant. Any change from these so called isolation pads or feet is from the mere movement of the cabinet upwards just like if you were to move it laterally. They really are not worth the money


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post #33 of 51 Old 02-04-2020, 06:31 PM
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Originally Posted by ClawAndTalon View Post
The floor substrate is virtually irrelevant. Any change from these so called isolation pads or feet is from the mere movement of the cabinet upwards just like if you were to move it laterally. They really are not worth the money


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An inch or two makes a big difference, even a huge difference, but just going from a shiny hard surface to a small carpet or rug, without elevation changes the sound, too. Especially with something downfiring or ported at the base. Try it.
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post #34 of 51 Old 02-04-2020, 06:39 PM
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just going from a shiny hard surface to a small carpet or rug, without elevation changes the sound, too. Especially with something downfiring or ported at the base. Try it.


No, sorry, it doesn’t change bass frequencies at all when movement is controlled; unless it’s a mattress under the sub, maybe? The flooring material does not matter with subsonic frequencies, also no matter which way the driver or port is configured. I’ve been doing this a while.

I know it sounds like a reasonable theory on your part, but again, that’s simply not how bass works. Any change that happens comes from simply moving the subwoofer and changing how bass modes are excited in room.


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post #35 of 51 Old 02-04-2020, 07:01 PM
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Originally Posted by ClawAndTalon View Post
No, sorry, it doesn’t change bass frequencies at all when movement is controlled; unless it’s a mattress under the sub, maybe? The flooring material does not matter with subsonic frequencies, also no matter which way the driver or port is configured. I’ve been doing this a while.

I know it sounds like a reasonable theory on your part, but again, that’s simply not how bass works. Any change that happens comes from simply moving the subwoofer and changing how bass modes are excited in room.


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Start at post #27 . You’ll understand.

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post #36 of 51 Old 02-04-2020, 09:07 PM
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If you have any "Blu Tack" roll in balls and place on bottom of sub in the corners and put sub down on the floor in position and push down so you want the balls of Blu Tack to be at a good size and it decouples from floor. It also keeps the sub from moving. Might be worth a try.
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post #37 of 51 Old 02-05-2020, 05:53 AM
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If you have any "Blu Tack" roll in balls and place on bottom of sub in the corners and put sub down on the floor in position and push down so you want the balls of Blu Tack to be at a good size and it decouples from floor. It also keeps the sub from moving. Might be worth a try.


What do you mean by “decouples from the floor?”


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post #38 of 51 Old 02-05-2020, 12:29 PM
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It raises it off the floor like spikes or feet would. I was told to use this to raise of the shiny granite slab I still have and I would notice it wouldn't move around on the granite. The sub was a 12 inch Energy on a wooden carpeted floor. When I did this it stuck to the granite but was removable.
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post #39 of 51 Old 02-05-2020, 01:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Philips752 View Post
It raises it off the floor like spikes or feet would. I was told to use this to raise of the shiny granite slab I still have and I would notice it wouldn't move around on the granite. The sub was a 12 inch Energy on a wooden carpeted floor. When I did this it stuck to the granite but was removable.

I have hardwood floors and use IsoAccoustic isolation pucks on my speakers and they make a noticeable difference in sound quality. I’m sure the SVS soundpath sub feet accomplishes the same task.

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post #40 of 51 Old 02-05-2020, 02:38 PM
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What do you mean by “decouples from the floor?”


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There are two types of energy that can "excite" the floor and make it vibrate: acoustic energy and mechanical energy. Acoustic energy is what you are describing. It is sound "pressure" that pushes and pulls on the floor, causing it to move up and down. The amount of movement is defined by the construction and mass of the floor. A concrete floor will not move appreciably. A wooden floor over joists will move a lot, especially at the "resonant frequency" of the floor. The resonant frequency will be determined by the mass of the floor, the construction and stiffness of the joists and the span of the joists over free space. Many refer to this as "tactile response" and it is a much sought after property of suspended floors. Nonetheless, this type of energy is inherent in the production of high SPL of long wavelength bass sounds. Dampening pads or feet will have no impact on acoustic energy vibrations of floors, (or walls or ceilings, for that matter.)

The other type of energy that can excite a floor is mechanical energy produced by the vibrations of the subwoofer box. An inert box, such as a dual-opposed or balanced-force alignment, will not vibrate at all and will transmit zero mechanical energy to the floor. However, an "unbalanced" design, such as a single driver in one side of a box, can cause mechanical vibration of the box. The amount of mechanical energy transmitted will depend on the mass of the box vs. the moving mass of the driver. If a very large mass driver is installed in a lower mass box, it can easily cause mechanical motion of the box, resulting in the box vibrating against the floor. In these cases, dampening of the box resonance with a mechanical dampener, like some of the ones described in this thread, will indeed reduce the the amount of energy transmitted to the floor by "decoupling" it from the floor. Both downfiring and front firing subs can benefit from dampening/decoupling, depending on the circumstances.

A blanket statement that these decoupling devices are nonsense is... well... nonsense. Not all situations will call for them or benefit from them. But there are certain circumstances where they are highly beneficial.

Craig
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post #41 of 51 Old 02-05-2020, 03:34 PM
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Originally Posted by craig john View Post
There are two types of energy that can "excite" the floor and make it vibrate: acoustic energy and mechanical energy. Acoustic energy is what you are describing. It is sound "pressure" that pushes and pulls on the floor, causing it to move up and down. The amount of movement is defined by the construction and mass of the floor. A concrete floor will not move appreciably. A wooden floor over joists will move a lot, especially at the "resonant frequency" of the floor. The resonant frequency will be determined by the mass of the floor, the construction and stiffness of the joists and the span of the joists over free space. Many refer to this as "tactile response" and it is a much sought after property of suspended floors. Nonetheless, this type of energy is inherent in the production of high SPL of long wavelength bass sounds. Dampening pads or feet will have no impact on acoustic energy vibrations of floors, (or walls or ceilings, for that matter.)

The other type of energy that can excite a floor is mechanical energy produced by the vibrations of the subwoofer box. An inert box, such as a dual-opposed or balanced-force alignment, will not vibrate at all and will transmit zero mechanical energy to the floor. However, an "unbalanced" design, such as a single driver in one side of a box, can cause mechanical vibration of the box. The amount of mechanical energy transmitted will depend on the mass of the box vs. the moving mass of the driver. If a very large mass driver is installed in a lower mass box, it can easily cause mechanical motion of the box, resulting in the box vibrating against the floor. In these cases, dampening of the box resonance with a mechanical dampener, like some of the ones described in this thread, will indeed reduce the the amount of energy transmitted to the floor by "decoupling" it from the floor. Both downfiring and front firing subs can benefit from dampening/decoupling, depending on the circumstances.

A blanket statement that these decoupling devices are nonsense is... well... nonsense. Not all situations will call for them or benefit from them. But there are certain circumstances where they are highly beneficial.

Craig


The problem is the the amount of vibrational energy is minuscule compared to the acoustical energy which will excite the same sympathetic resonance, and structural vibration artifacts and these doodads don’t stop that.

A properly made cabinet reduces vibration to nill (relative to acoustical energy) no matter what driver arrangement, so that it may produce as much acoustical energy as possible. A properly made subwoofer or speaker cabinet should have adequate feet (rubber, felt, spikes, to create a level position to the floor. As I said before, if these are absent, and a floor is particularly unlevel (it doesn’t matter what substrate, wood, concrete, etc) these can be a leveling choice with applicable benefits. However, when controlled for movement any sound change is due to that, not a decoupling effect. The acoustical energy is still off the chart.

When controlled for movement these devices have no evidence of benefit to a well built cabinet with proper construction. It’s up to them to provide this evidence, it would be easy to do so, and they don’t. When this marketing formula of “absent easy measurements” occurs in audio, like with exotic wires, I feel even more comfortable dismissing their claims until that changes, but it never does.

As I said above I am not definitively dismissing their use, but it’s secondary at best.


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post #42 of 51 Old 02-05-2020, 04:42 PM
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Originally Posted by ClawAndTalon View Post
The problem is the the amount of vibrational energy is minuscule compared to the acoustical energy which will excite the same sympathetic resonance, and structural vibration artifacts and these doodads don’t stop that.
That, sir, is an over-generalization. I have been to trade shows where manufacturers demonstrated their subs literally walking across the floor, one even had a 200# man sitting on top of it... and it still walked across the floor. Another demonstrated the "butt massage" you could get by sitting on his sub. If you want to prove it to yourself, place your hand on a subwoofer that is "unbalanced." Often you will feel the vibrations. The dampening pads will reduce the transmission of those vibrations to the floor. Of course a thick rug can probably do it just as well.

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A properly made cabinet reduces vibration to nill (relative to acoustical energy) no matter what driver arrangement, so that it may produce as much acoustical energy as possible.
There are many *improperly* made subs. You and I wouldn't buy them, but many people have and will continue to do so.

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A properly made subwoofer or speaker cabinet should have adequate feet (rubber, felt, spikes, to create a level position to the floor. As I said before, if these are absent, and a floor is particularly unlevel (it doesn’t matter what substrate, wood, concrete, etc) these can be a leveling choice with applicable benefits. However, when controlled for movement any sound change is due to that, not a decoupling effect. The acoustical energy is still off the chart.
Leveling would only have an acoustic impact if it changed how the sub interacts with the modal response of the room, (which would be negligible/trivial with a minor level adjustment of 1/2" or less.) Now, if the unlevel floor causes one of the feet to lose contact with the floor, and that exacerbates the vibrational energy imparted to the floor, then, yes, leveling could have a significant sonic impact simply by eliminating the mechanical interaction between subwoofer and floor.

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When controlled for movement these devices have no evidence of benefit to a well built cabinet with proper construction. It’s up to them to provide this evidence, it would be easy to do so, and they don’t. When this marketing formula of “absent easy measurements” occurs in audio, like with exotic wires, I feel even more comfortable dismissing their claims until that changes, but it never does.
Somehow, in your mind, you've equated these dampening pads to other types of audiophile snake-oil. They are not. They're a solution to a very specific problem, that being the transmission of mechanical vibrations produced by a subwoofer to a floor, which can then cause rattling and other spurious noises to come from the floor. If one doesn't have these issues, either due to the design or construction of the sub, then, of course, they offer no benefit of any kind.

But to state categorically that no subwoofer will ever produce mechanical vibrational energy is to turn a blind eye to a very real and significant issue... with SOME subwoofers. Other posters in this thread have adequately described their experiences with some of the subs and the problems they cause. In those cases, isolation pads, (or thick rugs) can solve the problem.

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As I said above I am not definitively dismissing their use, but it’s secondary at best.
Yes, exactly.


Edit: Having said all the above, carpet with a thick pad is the best flooring to use in a Home Theater environment. It will not only eliminate the mechanical coupling of subwoofers to floors, it will also improve acoustics in general by reducing reflected sonic energy off the floor. HT rooms with hardwood or laminate floors are too reflective for my tastes.

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post #43 of 51 Old 02-05-2020, 05:10 PM
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@craig john

If I were to recommend any of them it would be the pad version, not the feet. A really dense pad might absorb some minor harmonic artifacts or other tertiary concerns. But, carpet or small rug would as well. If someone has a dancing sub, I’d take the proceeds of these things any buy one that doesn’t.

That said, if someone has a resonance from the vibration it will continue with the acoustic energy, but moving the sub will direct excited room effects differently and “solve it.”

Even if it’s a cheap speaker or sub, and not over driven (if it dances it is clearly over driven) proper rubber or felt feet or spikes should be all you need, and those should come with the cabinet. But, I guess not always.




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post #44 of 51 Old 02-05-2020, 07:21 PM
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@craig john

If I were to recommend any of them it would be the pad version, not the feet. A really dense pad might absorb some minor harmonic artifacts or other tertiary concerns. But, carpet or small rug would as well. If someone has a dancing sub, I’d take the proceeds of these things any buy one that doesn’t.

That said, if someone has a resonance from the vibration it will continue with the acoustic energy, but moving the sub will direct excited room effects differently and “solve it.”

Even if it’s a cheap speaker or sub, and not over driven (if it dances it is clearly over driven) proper rubber or felt feet or spikes should be all you need, and those should come with the cabinet. But, I guess not always.




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Man, I have to side with Craig on this one. And this is soley from experience, because I can actually say that swapping the little spiked rubber feet that came on my sub (in sig) made a substantial difference in the vibrations it was giving off whenever I first got it set up.

In my situation, I bought a little country house out in the woods, and it has a suspended wood floor and sits on pad & pier. The amount of crap that was rattling around was ridiculous. So after some more due diligence, I decided to purchase the isolation feet that SVS offers, and they eliminated a great deal of the vibrations that I was experiencing. Not all of them, but certainly most. But I'm also faily certain that it's a YMMV situation as well.

Needless to say, they do serve their purpose.


[EDIT] No sub dancing. Just **** rattling everywhere. Lol
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Mechanical vibration transmitted to a suspended wood floor is a real thing and using some form of dampener is effective in reducing that vibration. In my case, the floor made a sort of droning noise that was quite unpleasant. Problem solved with a decoupling device. This sort of device is also useful on concrete, to stop the sub from walking across the floor.

As stated above, only effective against mechanical issues. Acoustical energy is unaffected.

It's a VIRTUAL channel unless stated otherwise.
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post #46 of 51 Old 02-06-2020, 04:48 AM
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Man, I have to side with Craig on this one. And this is soley from experience, because I can actually say that swapping the little spiked rubber feet that came on my sub (in sig) made a substantial difference in the vibrations it was giving off whenever I first got it set up.



In my situation, I bought a little country house out in the woods, and it has a suspended wood floor and sits on pad & pier. The amount of crap that was rattling around was ridiculous. So after some more due diligence, I decided to purchase the isolation feet that SVS offers, and they eliminated a great deal of the vibrations that I was experiencing. Not all of them, but certainly most. But I'm also faily certain that it's a YMMV situation as well.



Needless to say, they do serve their purpose.





[EDIT] No sub dancing. Just **** rattling everywhere. Lol

Certainly, If you have a speaker or subwoofer with nothing between the wood of the cabinet and the wood of a floor, (wood touching wood) you would be best having some kind of soft thing between them.

But again, this is nearly always provided.

A trip to a hardware store and a little creativity with plumbing washers or what not should do the trick for a buck and half.

After that you are only left with acoustical energy. By moving the acoustical energy away from the floor you are lessening it logarithmically. So again, that’s why these “work” when actual cabinet feet are provided.

So really their benefit is very situational impo and somewhat overpriced, and too many claim
benefit when there shouldn’t be one.



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post #47 of 51 Old 02-06-2020, 05:17 AM
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Certainly, If you have a speaker or subwoofer with nothing between the wood of the cabinet and the wood of a floor, (wood touching wood) you would be best having some kind of soft thing between them.

But again, this is nearly always provided.

A trip to a hardware store and a little creativity with plumbing washers or what not should do the trick for a buck and half.

After that you are only left with acoustical energy. By moving the acoustical energy away from the floor you are lessening it logarithmically. So again, that’s why these “work” when actual cabinet feet are provided.

So really their benefit is very situational impo and somewhat overpriced, and too many claim
benefit when there shouldn’t be one.
But it wasn’t sitting “cabinet to floor”. It had the rubber feet that came on there from SVS. They just weren’t enough to better decouple from the floor.

Also, keep in mind that I have parquet flooring on top of a suspended wood floor. TR FOR DAYS! Lol ...BUT, at the same time, it was also causing **** to rattle like crazy. Hence installing the isolation feet to help correct it.

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It raises it off the floor like spikes or feet would. I was told to use this to raise of the shiny granite slab I still have and I would notice it wouldn't move around on the granite. The sub was a 12 inch Energy on a wooden carpeted floor. When I did this it stuck to the granite but was removable.
To support the granite and to protect my wood floor I used hockey pucks, 3, so there was no wobble.

4 hockey pucks and blue tac might make inexpensive feet risers.
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post #49 of 51 Old 02-06-2020, 08:21 PM
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To support the granite and to protect my wood floor I used hockey pucks, 3, so there was no wobble.



4 hockey pucks and blue tac might make inexpensive feet risers.


A $15 bag of practice pucks is a must for any audiophile.


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post #50 of 51 Old 02-07-2020, 01:59 AM
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I have people, cut half two squash balls and attach them. The blu Tack really worked for my sub actually it was quite hard to get off the granite, but there was no damage. It was recommended by a installer.
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post #51 of 51 Old 03-06-2020, 10:01 AM - Thread Starter
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Well I have a happy ending to my saga. I moved the sub as suggested, re-ran Audysey, with Dynamic EQ off, and it now sounds just as I would expect. I have to admit to being surprised by how much the small movement away from the wall affected the response. I went from thinking I had made a big mistake with my purchase to being very satisfied. Great resource here on AVS Forum. Thanks again for all the help.
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