Rythmik Vs PSA - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 252 Old 02-03-2020, 10:24 AM - Thread Starter
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Rythmik Vs PSA

Been a long journey trying to figure out subwoofer purchase. Room is 4410 cubic feet. Elac uni-fi UF5(w/Aperion Super Tweeter on top) uni-fi center. Would say use is 80% movies and 20% music. Don"t get to listen as much as I would like due to other people in the house. Which limits size of the enclosure. Eliminates the Rythmik FV18 at 33 inches tall and 160 lbs. Have read that everyone seems to favor Rythmik. But PSA V18 IPAL is similar in size to the F18, but gain advantages of ported design. Or PSA S3012 for on $150 more for 2 15s.
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post #2 of 252 Old 02-03-2020, 11:05 AM
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80% movies and the Rythmik FV18/25 cabs too big? V1812IPAL
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post #3 of 252 Old 02-03-2020, 11:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chaossquared8484 View Post
Been a long journey trying to figure out subwoofer purchase. Room is 4410 cubic feet. Elac uni-fi UF5(w/Aperion Super Tweeter on top) uni-fi center. Would say use is 80% movies and 20% music. Don"t get to listen as much as I would like due to other people in the house. Which limits size of the enclosure. Eliminates the Rythmik FV18 at 33 inches tall and 160 lbs. Have read that everyone seems to favor Rythmik. But PSA V18 IPAL is similar in size to the F18, but gain advantages of ported design. Or PSA S3012 for on $150 more for 2 15s.
Can you lay the sub on its side to eliminate the height issue?

Subwoofers: Dual Rythmik FV18s Rev2 with Paper cone, BOSS Platform mini riser, 2 BK LFE
Speakers: PSA MTM-210 L/C/R - Klipsch 250S Surrounds, PSA MT 110sr Rear Surrounds, 4 x SVS Prime Elevation for Atmos
Video: Epson PowerLite Home Cinema 6500 UB; Room: 2100 cuft sealed on suspended floor
Receiver & Players: Denon X4400H, Oppo UDP-203, Roku Ultra. Apple TV, Minidsp 2X4 HD
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post #4 of 252 Old 02-03-2020, 12:08 PM - Thread Starter
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No then i would have to shift my system over to the left making it not centered with my sitting position. (OCD) Would rather deal with getting nagged at for the 33 inch height. Also going to move out of state at some point and don't want to move that extra heft.
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post #5 of 252 Old 02-03-2020, 12:15 PM
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No then i would have to shift my system over to the left making it not centered with my sitting position. (OCD) Would rather deal with getting nagged at for the 33 inch height. Also going to move out of state at some point and don't want to move that extra heft.
That pretty much rules out any low tuned subs which is what you would want in an open room. In that case the V1812 would be the pick
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Subwoofers: Dual Rythmik FV18s Rev2 with Paper cone, BOSS Platform mini riser, 2 BK LFE
Speakers: PSA MTM-210 L/C/R - Klipsch 250S Surrounds, PSA MT 110sr Rear Surrounds, 4 x SVS Prime Elevation for Atmos
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post #6 of 252 Old 02-03-2020, 01:55 PM
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What’s your budget for this project? Funk Audio makes some subs which are very waf/size friendly, though they do cost a little more

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post #7 of 252 Old 02-03-2020, 03:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Ya that's too expensive bc makes it far more pretty than I care about.
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post #8 of 252 Old 02-03-2020, 04:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chaossquared8484 View Post
Been a long journey trying to figure out subwoofer purchase. Room is 4410 cubic feet. Elac uni-fi UF5(w/Aperion Super Tweeter on top) uni-fi center. Would say use is 80% movies and 20% music. Don"t get to listen as much as I would like due to other people in the house. Which limits size of the enclosure. Eliminates the Rythmik FV18 at 33 inches tall and 160 lbs. Have read that everyone seems to favor Rythmik. But PSA V18 IPAL is similar in size to the F18, but gain advantages of ported design. Or PSA S3012 for on $150 more for 2 15s.
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No then i would have to shift my system over to the left making it not centered with my sitting position. (OCD) Would rather deal with getting nagged at for the 33 inch height. Also going to move out of state at some point and don't want to move that extra heft.

Hi,

I saw your posts on the PSA thread too, and I really want to comment on this. The PSA V18 (in any version) is a very fine subwoofer, but in all versions it starts to roll-off a little above 20Hz. And, it rolls-off pretty fast. In a 4400^3 room, your serious room gain won't even start until a little below 20Hz. So, if you buy a V1812 iPal (or especially if you buy a sealed sub, which starts to roll-off even higher) you won't be enjoying nearly as much of the <20Hz special effects, for movies, as you would probably like to.

That's pretty much what Secosche was telling you on the PSA thread. In his >5000^3 room, his room gain begins well below 20Hz, and his dual V18xx's don't have enough SPL left at that frequency to benefit from any meaningful room gain.

He will definitely be getting room gain in that room. His current subs just don't go low enough for him to even notice it. (For comparison, in my 6000^3 room, my serious room gain doesn't start until a fraction below 15Hz, so I have to have enough SPL at that frequency to really benefit from it. And, I do!) That's where lower-tuned ported subs come in.

Where I am going with this, is that I think you will do yourself a disservice if you make your subwoofer purchase on the basis of not wanting to move a heavier sub when you move to another house. It's larger and heavier specifically because it can do things that a smaller, lighter sub can't. And, that extra size is mainly allowing it to hit <20Hz frequencies with enough SPL to allow you to enjoy movie special effects (and to benefit from room gain to augment that enjoyment). Compared to moving beds, sofas, dressers, etc. that larger sub is pretty much going to be a non-issue.

I would be glad to recommend a low-tuned PSA sub, in this case, if they had one in a smaller size. As it is, I recommend the Rythmik FV18, with the paper cone. I think you will eventually find yourself missing the lower frequencies, and upgrading anyway, if you don't go ahead and bite-the-bullet on the 33" height, and heavier weight, of the FV18.

Regards,
Mike

GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.

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post #9 of 252 Old 02-03-2020, 05:02 PM - Thread Starter
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So you are saying FV18 Def over the V18 IPal? To man up and not be a b***h.😝 Buy the bigger box. Because it's gonna out perform the PSA?
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post #10 of 252 Old 02-03-2020, 06:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chaossquared8484 View Post
So you are saying FV18 Def over the V18 IPal? To man up and not be a b***h.😝 Buy the bigger box. Because it's gonna out perform the PSA?
Just so you know, the FV18, FV25HP and G25HP ship via UPS Freight on a pallet and also they come with furniture mover pads of your choice: carpet or hardwood floors so you can move it easily in your room. You can even leave the furniture mover pads under the subwoofer if you want.

Enrico Castagnetti @ Rythmik Audio - Dialing In Rythmik Audio Subwoofers - REW for macOS
Media Room: Sierra Towers w/RAAL, Horizon w/RAAL, Sierra 2s & Lunas | Rythmik F12SE(x2) + FV25HP | Denon X6500H | Panny 820 + ATV 4K | Bluesound Node 2 | Sony 77A9G OLED |
Desktop: Dynaudio BM5 mkIII | Rythmik L22 | Apogee Quartet | 27" iMac| Bedroom: B&W 685 S2 | Rythmik LVX12 | Marantz SR6013 | Sony X700 + ATV 4K | Sony XBR-65Z9D |
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post #11 of 252 Old 02-03-2020, 06:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Yes I did thank you. I have no worries about setting it up for the first time. I am worried about when I go to move across the country.
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post #12 of 252 Old 02-03-2020, 06:49 PM
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Originally Posted by chaossquared8484 View Post
So you are saying FV18 Def over the V18 IPal? To man up and not be a b***h.😝 Buy the bigger box. Because it's gonna out perform the PSA?
Lol! In a nutshell, I believe you nailed this one on the head (just messin' with you). In this case, the FV18 will definitely be more beneficial to your needs in your big ass room.

My room is about 2300^3 and has a 5'Wx7'H opening to an 11'Wx20'L kitchen/dining area, and if I didn't have a ported sub, I'd be seriously hurting for bass with my single 12". Luckily it's not the average 12" sub, but it's still not nearly enough to fully pressurize my space.

That being said, the FV18's (paper cone) are tops on my list of subs. Price for perfomance in the 18" variety, I don't think there's anything out there that can compete. Low tune (12Hz), great mid-bass, and very musical. And trust me, you're going to want the low tune. I mean, mine has a 16Hz mode, and compared to the normal 20Hz tune, it makes a HUGE difference. I can only imagine what 12Hz would be like.

Ultimately, the final decision is up to you, so get out there and give it a 110%!
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post #13 of 252 Old 02-03-2020, 06:50 PM
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Yes I did thank you. I have no worries about setting it up for the first time. I am worried about when I go to move across the country.
This is why we have friends. Lol

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post #14 of 252 Old 02-03-2020, 07:03 PM - Thread Starter
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No friends just this incoming subwoofer. That I'm almost done sacking up and buying the FV18. Ugh!?!
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post #15 of 252 Old 02-03-2020, 07:11 PM
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No friends just this incoming subwoofer. That I'm almost done sacking up and buying the FV18. Ugh!?!
It's all good man, I totally get it. My 12" is 130lbs, and I dread having to pack that thing up whenever it's time to sell for my upgrade...which will either be the dual FV18's, or if I can sneak it by the wife somehow, get a single TV36 IPAL (211 lbs. ) and add a second later. Luckily, I still have plenty of time to ponder/solve this dilemma.
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post #16 of 252 Old 02-03-2020, 07:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Was comparing to the V18 IPal bc of cabinet size. But I'm being told I will just miss out and do the FV18.
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post #17 of 252 Old 02-03-2020, 07:29 PM
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Was comparing to the V18 IPal bc of cabinet size. But I'm being told I will just miss out and do the FV18.
Yeah, having that lower tune is addicting. Hence, me wanting bigger LT subs. That's also why I'm considering the the new PSA offerings with the lower tune.

To be totally honest, the more I hear about the TV42's, the more my curiousity is getting the best of me. These forums are just pure evil!

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post #18 of 252 Old 02-03-2020, 08:08 PM
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Originally Posted by enricoclaudio View Post
Just so you know, the FV18, FV25HP and G25HP ship via UPS Freight on a pallet and also they come with furniture mover pads of your choice: carpet or hardwood floors so you can move it easily in your room. You can even leave the furniture mover pads under the subwoofer if you want.
+1

I choose the carpet ones, but never use them. The FV18, did move fairly easy to move them into final position. Once close to the proper location

@chaossquared8484

As mention in the above quote, from Enrico. They do come with moving pads, and for the weight. My FV18's weight 160lbs once out of the boxes, and only required my Wife help to get them out off-it and after that I was on my own. And just for info, I weight 128lbs. So if there is a will, it can be done. Perhaps some pictures of your room, can help us with location suggestions.


Darth

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post #19 of 252 Old 02-03-2020, 08:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by d-rail34 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by chaossquared8484 View Post
Was comparing to the V18 IPal bc of cabinet size. But I'm being told I will just miss out and do the FV18.
Yeah, having that lower tune is addicting. Hence, me wanting bigger LT subs. That's also why I'm considering the the new PSA offerings with the lower tune.

To be totally honest, the more I hear about the TV42's, the more my curiousity is getting the best of me. These forums are just pure evil! [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/confused.gif[/IMG]
Why not consider the Cap4000ULF as well?

Evil you say! Ha ha haaaaaaaa
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post #20 of 252 Old 02-03-2020, 08:24 PM
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Why not consider the Cap4000ULF as well?

Evil you say! Ha ha haaaaaaaa

What can I say, look at his Avatar and my user Name
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This is why we have friends. Lol

Feel good to be Evil some time, and be a recruiter for the dark side


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post #21 of 252 Old 02-03-2020, 08:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Don't worry I am on the Dark Side. Always a villain. No goody goody s**t here. I know I can move it no problem. And probably 98% sure I'm ordering the FV18. Just gonna prepare to get bitched at have to wait for to be back in stock.
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Gonna finish watching Empire in 4k disney+ right now.
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Has anyone had the pleasure to audition both dual Rythmik FV25HP and PSA TV3612 subs?
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post #24 of 252 Old 02-03-2020, 10:19 PM
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Are two smaller subs an option? Lots of proponents on here for duals.

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post #25 of 252 Old 02-04-2020, 06:49 AM
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Are two smaller subs an option? Lots of proponents on here for duals.

Hi,

Dual subs are always an option! Most rooms, of whatever size, can benefit from having dual subs. The most important benefit is for improved frequency response, as the room itself will influence the bass response in both positive ways (room gain), and negative ways (random peaks and dips in the bass sound). Dual identical subs can also offer a +6dB increase in SPL, averaged across the subs' entire passband, and they can increase sensations of bass envelopment.

But, especially in larger rooms, it is important to start with the right subwoofer, because as explained in my earlier post, a sub's inherent ability to hit low-frequencies is always going to be a limiting factor in its performance. Dual subs which don't individually have low enough extension to provide the low-frequency performance that someone wants, in a particular room, may not ever provide the same entertainment value that a single larger and more powerful subwoofer would.

Selecting the right subwoofers for a particular room, and for a given set of priorities and preferences, can be a complicated process, as indicated by the sheer number of threads like this one at any given time. And, then implementing the subwoofer(s) effectively in a room can also be pretty involved in some cases. Guides, like the one in my signature, can help to provide useful information, but it's still hard to come-up with any sort of formula to apply to every situation.

The closest that most of us have come to in developing a generalization that applies to most situations, is to try to start with the single most powerful subwoofer (with the lowest inherent extension) that we are likely to need. And then, to add identical multiples of that subwoofer, as preferences and circumstances dictate. That's why most of us on this thread are emphasizing starting with a single low-tuned ported sub, in a 4400^3 room, for a primarily movie application.

I know that your question was a sincere one, and I hope that my explanation helps!

Regards,
Mike
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* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #26 of 252 Old 02-04-2020, 07:01 AM
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Has anyone had the pleasure to audition both dual Rythmik FV25HP and PSA TV3612 subs?
I don't know of one.
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post #27 of 252 Old 02-04-2020, 08:02 AM
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Why not consider the Cap4000ULF as well?

Evil you say! Ha ha haaaaaaaa
Oh trust me. That was looked at originally, it then the new PSAs came out.

My wife is NOT going to be happy with me whenever I’m finally able to upgrade. She already thinks my PB12 Plus is huge. Lol
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post #28 of 252 Old 02-04-2020, 08:17 AM
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Fwiw I have owned 3 ported 15" subs from PSA since 2013. I auditioned a V1801 for a 45 days a few years back after it came out in 2016. It was a fine subwoofer but I didn't notice enough of a difference to warrant keeping it. Fast forward to November 2019, I purchased a JTR 1200XS to audition...15" 1200watt sub with 10hz tune. I instantly noticed the difference in the lower tuning point. I decided to keep that sub being I felt it added another layer to the bass in my room. You probably wonder why I didn't go TV36, well the same issue as you...too large.

That being said I am sure the V18Ipal is a complete different beast then the V1801 was. It should offer a significant improvement in Sound Quality and lower distortion, but it lacks one ingredient that is currently a big trend right now...ULF extension. If it was tuned lower I would say it's a no brainer, but for now the only single driver low tuned subwoofer options are from Rythmik or JTR which are excellent options. JTR is going to have thicker heavier bass, Rythmik Aluminum cone is probably going to sound thinner and light. The FV18 paper cone likely will be a good balance of both.

Also my room is a bit smaller then yours, so I get decent amount of room gain below 20hz. In your room I couldn't say for sure if it would be worth chasing ULF with subs alone unless you went with some big boi subs like Cap 2400/4000 or TV36/42. You might be better off to get a pair of V18Ipal and build a boss riser or get some crowsons for ULF assist. I think it's a mistake to assume you would be loosing a lot of entertainment value by purchasing 18hz tuned subs. That tuning point covers 90% of what is on a disk. I do believe that the last 10% is worth it, but there are different ways to get it aside from being persuaded to buy subs larger then you want to put in your room. If I turned off my JTR and just let my 3 15v's play, I still don't think "wow my system is really lacking", but the JTR definitely adds to the experience on movie nights where there is a lot of ULF bass on the disk.

Moral of the story, I agree ideally it would be a good choice to start with a low tune offering if you can find something that will fit your size constraints. If not, you can still get good results with a pair of high output higher tuned subs and use a transducer or boss riser to assist with the lower frequencies. jm2c.
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post #29 of 252 Old 02-04-2020, 08:24 AM
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Oh trust me. That was looked at originally, it then the new PSAs came out.

My wife is NOT going to be happy with me whenever I’m finally able to upgrade. She already thinks my PB12 Plus is huge. Lol
And for that my Audio friend, your better half will get use to-it. Eventually, I hope


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post #30 of 252 Old 02-04-2020, 10:39 AM
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And for that my Audio friend, your better half will get use to-it. Eventually, I hope


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Yeah, she’s cool. But, she’s still a woman, and she’ll definitely overreact to some degree once they’re set up in our living room. Lol
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