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post #1 of 45 Old 02-12-2020, 07:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Some eq advice

So I just got 2 psa v1812s like 2 weeks ago and I've been playing around with my mini dsp 2x4hd using room eq wizard i added a house curve to my tune but idk if i made it to steep or not I unfortunately haven't had time to test it yet but does this look ok? The top line is at my listening volume
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post #2 of 45 Old 02-12-2020, 08:39 PM
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FYI, using the little camera icon in REW takes nice pics, that aren't 4MB each...

I run about 10dB house curve with my 3 sub setup (not PSA), so unless your room is enormous, you're probably ok. To see if you're overdriving, check the distortion plot. If you're under 10% THD, I'd say you're just fine. Did you set the EQ to purposefully roll things off that steep down low? I'd think a pair of 18" should have far more extension than that...

Here's my response for reference, at my normal listening level... Apples & oranges, but I've got two 12" subs and a 15" sub, and under 1% THD at anything above 11Hz at this volume level. To be fair, my room is only about 2200 cubic feet, so that plays a big part too.
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post #3 of 45 Old 02-13-2020, 05:11 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Sorny View Post
FYI, using the little camera icon in REW takes nice pics, that aren't 4MB each... [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/wink.gif[/IMG]

I run about 10dB house curve with my 3 sub setup (not PSA), so unless your room is enormous, you're probably ok. To see if you're overdriving, check the distortion plot. If you're under 10% THD, I'd say you're just fine. Did you set the EQ to purposefully roll things off that steep down low? I'd think a pair of 18" should have far more extension than that...

Here's my response for reference, at my normal listening level... Apples & oranges, but I've got two 12" subs and a 15" sub, and under 1% THD at anything above 11Hz at this volume level. To be fair, my room is only about 2200 cubic feet, so that plays a big part too.
I didn't set it to roll off that low it's the concrete walls and floors that do that lol but I havent tested for distortion I just time aligned my subs and the filters just took dbs it didnt add any my line when they where aligned was decently flat to around 90hz than there was a drop off but I will definitely check dont want to over drive my subs I only had them 2 weeks thank you
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post #4 of 45 Old 02-13-2020, 05:14 PM
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I think the response looks absolutely fantastic except the falling off a cliff down low. Have you played around with the room gain knob on the amp at all? I don't know what that does, but maybe it changes where the rumble filter kicks in?

My room is concrete floor with pad/carpet over it. 3 out of 4 walls are concrete block with 2x4 and sheetrock over them, and back wall is just 2x4 & sheetrock. I have no falling off a cliff low-end bass drop. It looks to me like there's a crazy steep rumble filter on the sub at about 20Hz.

Again, aside from the lack of low bass, I think that's a superb EQ graph. It just strikes me as though there's something not right when a pair of 18" subs have nothing below 20Hz...

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post #5 of 45 Old 02-13-2020, 05:29 PM
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Looks line we finally have some published PSA sub numbers.

Sorry, couldn't resist.
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post #6 of 45 Old 02-13-2020, 05:56 PM
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Originally Posted by acribb View Post
Looks line we finally have some published PSA sub numbers.

Sorry, couldn't resist.

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post #7 of 45 Old 02-13-2020, 07:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Sorny View Post
I think the response looks absolutely fantastic except the falling off a cliff down low. Have you played around with the room gain knob on the amp at all? I don't know what that does, but maybe it changes where the rumble filter kicks in?

My room is concrete floor with pad/carpet over it. 3 out of 4 walls are concrete block with 2x4 and sheetrock over them, and back wall is just 2x4 & sheetrock. I have no falling off a cliff low-end bass drop. It looks to me like there's a crazy steep rumble filter on the sub at about 20Hz.

Again, aside from the lack of low bass, I think that's a superb EQ graph. It just strikes me as though there's something not right when a pair of 18" subs have nothing below 20Hz...
I have them set to just a little past half and I had svs pb2000s before these and it was very similar fall off on those as well I think it might just be my room/furniture setup that kills the low end I'm not sure but I'm ok with that
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post #8 of 45 Old 02-14-2020, 10:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Xcakez View Post
I have them set to just a little past half and I had svs pb2000s before these and it was very similar fall off on those as well I think it might just be my room/furniture setup that kills the low end I'm not sure but I'm ok with that
If you turn the room size to max you may be able to recover some of that low end. If you do adjust the room size control, you will want to re-check your house curve and adjust accordingly.

Just FYI, a good method to determine the rise of your house curve in your room is to play test tones at both 100Hz and 30Hz (turn off your current house curve). Adjust (by ear) the master volume while switching between the two tones so that they sound roughly equal in volume. The difference in master volume between the two is how much dB rise you should have in your house curve.
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post #9 of 45 Old 02-14-2020, 10:59 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Xcakez View Post
I have them set to just a little past half and I had svs pb2000s before these and it was very similar fall off on those as well I think it might just be my room/furniture setup that kills the low end I'm not sure but I'm ok with that
If you turn the room size to max you may be able to recover some of that low end. If you do adjust the room size control, you will want to re-check your house curve and adjust accordingly. [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/wink.gif[/IMG]

Just FYI, a good method to determine the rise of your house curve in your room is to play test tones at both 100Hz and 30Hz (turn off your current house curve). Adjust (by ear) the master volume while switching between the two tones so that they sound roughly equal in volume. The difference in master volume between the two is how much dB rise you should have in your house curve.
This is with both of them on large it made the fall off alot less but they start chuffing I turned them down just off the large and it went away the final result in my room is this graph Click image for larger version

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post #10 of 45 Old 02-14-2020, 11:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Xcakez View Post
This is with both of them on large it made the fall off alot less but they start chuffing I turned them down just off the large and it went away the final result in my room is this graph Attachment 2684840
You really need to start using the camera icon in the upper left corner of the REW screen to capture your graphs. Not only will they be right side up, but they are much easier for us to view as the file sizes are much smaller.

If you are getting chuffing from dual V1812s you either; 1) listen at very loud levels, or 2) have the subwoofers boosted a LOT, or 3) have a HUGE space to fill, or 4) are sitting in a null for the ULF (Ultra Low Frequencies). With those subs, I wouldn't expect them to start dropping off until you are below 20Hz.

Have you measured away from the MLP? Is the ULF stronger in other parts of the room? Where are you subs currently placed?
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post #11 of 45 Old 02-14-2020, 05:17 PM - Thread Starter
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This is with both of them on large it made the fall off alot less but they start chuffing I turned them down just off the large and it went away the final result in my room is this graph Attachment 2684840
You really need to start using the camera icon in the upper left corner of the REW screen to capture your graphs. Not only will they be right side up, but they are much easier for us to view as the file sizes are much smaller.

If you are getting chuffing from dual V1812s you either; 1) listen at very loud levels, or 2) have the subwoofers boosted a LOT, or 3) have a HUGE space to fill, or 4) are sitting in a null for the ULF (Ultra Low Frequencies). With those subs, I wouldn't expect them to start dropping off until you are below 20Hz.

Have you measured away from the MLP? Is the ULF stronger in other parts of the room? Where are you subs currently placed?
I'm sorry about the pictures I have to take a picture from my phone my laptop doesnt have internet and I have measured in a few different places the under 20 is all but the same I have the gains on the plate amps at 12 o clock and 0 in the mini dsp and -7.5 on the receiver the filters shows 1 or 2 db increase but nothing to high and I have 1 in the front right corner and one in the back right corner I at max listen with the avr at -8.0 so I really dont think I'm over driving the subs but I really don't know I'm new to all this
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post #12 of 45 Old 02-15-2020, 11:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Xcakez View Post
I'm sorry about the pictures I have to take a picture from my phone my laptop doesnt have internet and I have measured in a few different places the under 20 is all but the same I have the gains on the plate amps at 12 o clock and 0 in the mini dsp and -7.5 on the receiver the filters shows 1 or 2 db increase but nothing to high and I have 1 in the front right corner and one in the back right corner I at max listen with the avr at -8.0 so I really dont think I'm over driving the subs but I really don't know I'm new to all this
Must be a giant room to have no room gain below 20Hz... Got a sketch of the room with sub placement relative to the listening position and approximate size? Open or closed to other rooms, etc..

Have you tried other locations for the subs?

Back to the original question, though, if you don't hear chuffing from ports, and the THD is low, then I think you're likely to not be overdriving the subs. In REW, just click the Distortion button, and look at the THD graph. Use the cursor to go along the frequency response. Here's what the graph looks like on my recently updated EQ setting. I put the cursor where the THD is highest, in my case at just over 10Hz, at my normal listening volume of -15dB and only 4.3%... I'm running a pretty aggressive house curve in my room now too...In my case, I'm at about 2% THD or less from 13Hz on up, so I'm confident I'm not overdriving my subs.

Try the distortion check in REW and see how it looks. If you don't hear chuffing, and don't hear the drivers making unpleasant noises, and are under 10% THD, I believe you're safe.
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post #13 of 45 Old 02-16-2020, 06:05 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Xcakez View Post
I'm sorry about the pictures I have to take a picture from my phone my laptop doesnt have internet and I have measured in a few different places the under 20 is all but the same I have the gains on the plate amps at 12 o clock and 0 in the mini dsp and -7.5 on the receiver the filters shows 1 or 2 db increase but nothing to high and I have 1 in the front right corner and one in the back right corner I at max listen with the avr at -8.0 so I really dont think I'm over driving the subs but I really don't know I'm new to all this
Must be a giant room to have no room gain below 20Hz... Got a sketch of the room with sub placement relative to the listening position and approximate size? Open or closed to other rooms, etc..

Have you tried other locations for the subs?

Back to the original question, though, if you don't hear chuffing from ports, and the THD is low, then I think you're likely to not be overdriving the subs. In REW, just click the Distortion button, and look at the THD graph. Use the cursor to go along the frequency response. Here's what the graph looks like on my recently updated EQ setting. I put the cursor where the THD is highest, in my case at just over 10Hz, at my normal listening volume of -15dB and only 4.3%... I'm running a pretty aggressive house curve in my room now too...In my case, I'm at about 2% THD or less from 13Hz on up, so I'm confident I'm not overdriving my subs.

Try the distortion check in REW and see how it looks. If you don't hear chuffing, and don't hear the drivers making unpleasant noises, and are under 10% THD, I believe you're safe.
This is my room the two black squares with the x is where the subs are behind this room is a 14x14 bedroom it's all concrete walls and a concrete floor with a drop ceiling 6.5 feet high I've put the subs every possible place I can it doesnt seem to add any extension the distortion at my listening volume is less than 1%
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post #14 of 45 Old 02-17-2020, 03:31 AM
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@Xcakez

Here's your original graph, I've shrunk it down to a more manageable size





I'm really surprised how early these are starting to roll off (23Hz) and how fast (6dB down by 20Hz) and like 25+dB down by 17Hz??? something may be up with the setup here?
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post #15 of 45 Old 02-17-2020, 06:07 PM - Thread Starter
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@Xcakez

Here's your original graph, I've shrunk it down to a more manageable size





I'm really surprised how early these are starting to roll off (23Hz) and how fast (6dB down by 20Hz) and like 25+dB down by 17Hz??? something may be up with the setup here?
Thank you and I'm thinking about returning them to get something tuned lower they sound really good for music but it doesnt have the tactile response I'm looking for
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post #16 of 45 Old 02-17-2020, 10:44 PM
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Thank you and I'm thinking about returning them to get something tuned lower they sound really good for music but it doesnt have the tactile response I'm looking for
I would post this up on the PSA sub thread, the V1812's are definitely not a low tuned sub - but they also should not be 25dB down at 17Hz or 5-6dB down at 20Hz either - I would have expected strong performance to the high teens at least from dual V1812s, I'm thinking there may be a problem with the set up somewhere in the chain.

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post #17 of 45 Old 02-18-2020, 09:25 AM
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Originally Posted by jamiebosco View Post
I would post this up on the PSA sub thread, the V1812's are definitely not a low tuned sub - but they also should not be 25dB down at 17Hz or 5-6dB down at 20Hz either - I would have expected strong performance to the high teens at least from dual V1812s, I'm thinking there may be a problem with the set up somewhere in the chain.
This.

Also, email Tom and he will help to get you sorted out.
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post #18 of 45 Old 02-18-2020, 10:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Xcakez View Post
So I just got 2 psa v1812s like 2 weeks ago and I've been playing around with my mini dsp 2x4hd using room eq wizard i added a house curve to my tune but idk if i made it to steep or not I unfortunately haven't had time to test it yet but does this look ok? The top line is at my listening volume

Try measuring with the EQ (house curve) bypassed on the MiniDSP. Maybe you left the default "LF Rise End (Hz)" on the MiniDSP "Target Settings" which could be the roll off cause.
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post #19 of 45 Old 02-18-2020, 09:24 PM
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I looked at OP's post history, and he did not have the apparent brickwall at 20Hz with his old PB2000's so it is NOT the room... Differences since then AFAIKT, are a MiniDSP in the loop and switched to PSA 1812s. Beware, it's the same giant phone pic of a screen resulting in 4MB files... Instead of clicking directly on the attachments, I've had luck right clicking and opening in a new tab.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...l#post58461640

So, now I think there's one of 3 things going on: Either PSA 1812's suck and are for all intents and purposes very expensive 18" woofers made to work like 8" or 10" subs, and that's why there's no measurement data available online to view, or we've got an errant filter in the EQ being applied, or PSA royally screwed up their DSP code in the amp for the 1812. 2 of these are extremely unlikely.

I'm pretty sure PSA wouldn't purposefully make an 18" sub perform like a 10" sub WRT extension; thus I expect it's not a design problem or DSP implementation problem on the amp. So, the reasonable thing to think is that there's bad EQ going on by the user.

Xcakez, what are the EQ settings you imported into your MiniDSP? How did you determine and apply the house curve? Details, the more the better. Do you have the initial measurements from REW, before you applied EQ?

Your un-DSP'd PB2000 response in August was down about 10-12dB at 15Hz compared to 20Hz; that's reasonable and believable for a "bad room for low bass". It's a LONG way from the like -40dB or worse your first plot in this thread showed, and is still much better than the 2nd one after you adjusted the room size knobs.
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post #20 of 45 Old 02-19-2020, 02:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorny View Post
I looked at OP's post history, and he did not have the apparent brickwall at 20Hz with his old PB2000's so it is NOT the room... Differences since then AFAIKT, are a MiniDSP in the loop and switched to PSA 1812s. Beware, it's the same giant phone pic of a screen resulting in 4MB files... Instead of clicking directly on the attachments, I've had luck right clicking and opening in a new tab.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...l#post58461640

So, now I think there's one of 3 things going on: Either PSA 1812's suck and are for all intents and purposes very expensive 18" woofers made to work like 8" or 10" subs, and that's why there's no measurement data available online to view, or we've got an errant filter in the EQ being applied, or PSA royally screwed up their DSP code in the amp for the 1812. 2 of these are extremely unlikely.

I'm pretty sure PSA wouldn't purposefully make an 18" sub perform like a 10" sub WRT extension; thus I expect it's not a design problem or DSP implementation problem on the amp. So, the reasonable thing to think is that there's bad EQ going on by the user.

Xcakez, what are the EQ settings you imported into your MiniDSP? How did you determine and apply the house curve? Details, the more the better. Do you have the initial measurements from REW, before you applied EQ?

Your un-DSP'd PB2000 response in August was down about 10-12dB at 15Hz compared to 20Hz; that's reasonable and believable for a "bad room for low bass". It's a LONG way from the like -40dB or worse your first plot in this thread showed, and is still much better than the 2nd one after you adjusted the room size knobs.
Ok that's quite interesting!

The PB2000's have a much deeper response and more gradual roll off below their port tune compared to the V1812s



Something has to be up here, I really doubt the V1812's have a 48dB(?)/Octave HPF set at 23Hz from the factory, we definitely would have heard about this from other users by now

I'm going to guess a High Pass Filter may have been accidentally applied in the MiniDSP 2x4HD somehow

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post #21 of 45 Old 02-19-2020, 08:38 AM
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If the OP could make his MiniDSP config file available for download this could probably get sorted in short order.
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post #22 of 45 Old 02-19-2020, 05:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorny View Post
I looked at OP's post history, and he did not have the apparent brickwall at 20Hz with his old PB2000's so it is NOT the room... Differences since then AFAIKT, are a MiniDSP in the loop and switched to PSA 1812s. Beware, it's the same giant phone pic of a screen resulting in 4MB files... Instead of clicking directly on the attachments, I've had luck right clicking and opening in a new tab.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...l#post58461640

So, now I think there's one of 3 things going on: Either PSA 1812's suck and are for all intents and purposes very expensive 18" woofers made to work like 8" or 10" subs, and that's why there's no measurement data available online to view, or we've got an errant filter in the EQ being applied, or PSA royally screwed up their DSP code in the amp for the 1812. 2 of these are extremely unlikely.

I'm pretty sure PSA wouldn't purposefully make an 18" sub perform like a 10" sub WRT extension; thus I expect it's not a design problem or DSP implementation problem on the amp. So, the reasonable thing to think is that there's bad EQ going on by the user.

Xcakez, what are the EQ settings you imported into your MiniDSP? How did you determine and apply the house curve? Details, the more the better. Do you have the initial measurements from REW, before you applied EQ?

Your un-DSP'd PB2000 response in August was down about 10-12dB at 15Hz compared to 20Hz; that's reasonable and believable for a "bad room for low bass". It's a LONG way from the like -40dB or worse your first plot in this thread showed, and is still much better than the 2nd one after you adjusted the room size knobs.
this is the subs hooked directly to my receiver no mini dsp connected room settings are both on large hopefully the picture is a good size I included the mini dsp file not sure if this will work and the target curve I really am not sure what im doing wrong I followed a youtube video step by step the high pass filters are bypassed im by no means bashing the subs I just want to get this squared away
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post #23 of 45 Old 02-19-2020, 07:24 PM
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The pics are much better now, thanks!

I'm at work, so I won't be able to import that .txt file to view it for about 6-7 hours, but someone else will probably get to it before me to make sure.

Can you put the 1812's in the same locations you had the PB2000's and run a sweep with no EQ? I would expect to see similar rolloff between the PB2000 and V1812, understanding that the tuning points are different, but the overall shape should be close. Your graph is concerning already though. It's starting to look like the PSA has a brickwall HPF at 23Hz. If so, that's super-lame.

It's helpful to have REW graphs at 5dB increments on the vertical; I've got to constantly adjust my graph scales when I do sweeps... it's just a lot easier to see what's going on with 5dB vertical. 10+dB on vertical makes things look a lot better than reality.

If there's nothing goofy going on with the biquads, then I'm thinking I'd recommend returning the 1812's. Keep about a grand of the return money in your pocket, and take 2 grand and change and try a VTF-15H Mk2 pair from HSU Research. I guarantee you'll have meaningful low bass. Heck, it's looking like you'd need over a dozen 1812's to match a single one of my TN1220HO subs at 16Hz, and it takes both TN1220HOs to equal my single VTF-15H Mk2 down low...

MiniDSP 2x4HD, UMIK-1, REW... The holy trinity for running multiple subs.
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post #24 of 45 Old 02-19-2020, 08:41 PM
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^^ and the TN1220 is an old discontinued Hsu product from ~20 years ago. I had one with the 500W amp from 1999 to 2002 and it was an outstanding sub back in its glory day.
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post #25 of 45 Old 02-19-2020, 08:49 PM
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@Xcakez , I would like to see compression graphs on your v1812 pair if possible. TIA.
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post #26 of 45 Old 02-19-2020, 08:53 PM
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Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
^^ and the TN1220 is an old discontinued Hsu product from ~20 years ago. I had one with the 500W amp from 1999 to 2002 and it was an outstanding sub back in its glory day.
They're still outstanding subs...

MiniDSP 2x4HD, UMIK-1, REW... The holy trinity for running multiple subs.
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post #27 of 45 Old 02-19-2020, 08:56 PM
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^^ Agree. There was nothing remotely as good within its price range back in the day.
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post #28 of 45 Old 02-19-2020, 10:16 PM
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Originally Posted by acribb View Post
Looks line we finally have some published PSA sub numbers.

Sorry, couldn't resist.
LMAO ! truth there man!
why is it so hard to get graphs on these things ?

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post #29 of 45 Old 02-20-2020, 12:50 AM
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I imported the EQ into my MiniDSP plugin, and don't see anything that would explain a brick wall at 23Hz...

There's nothing on the input side of your miniDSP is there?

Outside of that, I don't know what to think...
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MiniDSP 2x4HD, UMIK-1, REW... The holy trinity for running multiple subs.

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post #30 of 45 Old 02-20-2020, 03:12 AM
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Here's a graph (sorry can't remember who posted it,perhaps Jeffrey?) showing some output compression sweeps of the older V1801 subwoofer. Whilst not super low tuned, these reach down to the high teens and have a fairly gradual rolloff, nothing like the 23Hz brickwall filter shown in the OP's V1812 graphs.



Unless some truly drastic changes where made to the V1812's port tuning/DSP/HPF compared to the older model - something else is going on IMHO

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
TV: Panasonic P65ST60 AVR: Denon X4000 Speakers: PSA MTM-210C (Centre), PSA MTM-210 (Left & Right), PSA MT-110 (Surrounds) Subwoofers: Dual Seaton SubMersives

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