Upgrade time! SVS PB-2000 vs HSU VTF-2 MK5 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 38 Old 02-20-2020, 01:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Upgrade time! SVS PB-2000 vs HSU VTF-2 MK5

Hello,
Unfortunately it's another this one or that one thread. I am upgrading my crap BIC F12 sub and am looking at the PB-2000 or the VTF-2. My budget is $700. Most comparisons I have seen are the PB-2000 vs VTF-3, but since the PB-2000 has dropped in price, these are what are comparable for my budget. I understand the customer service advantage of SVS, and it is an important factor to me. But ultimately performance is the most important. I really don't see me going duals anytime as this is not a big enough priority these days with me. My wife is ill with stage IV cancer so this will be the extent of my upgrade capabilities.
This will be used primarily for movies (90%), tho I do enjoy to sit and listen occasionally to music. Main speakers are Polk LSi 15's, driven from and Adcom 545II (caps and ic's were upgraded years ago). They are fed by Marantz SR5010.
Room is approximately 2800 cu ft., with no back wall.
Again, I have no ability or desire to go with anything larger or multiple subs. Either of these will surely be an improvement over what I have currently.

Many thanks in advance...
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post #2 of 38 Old 02-20-2020, 01:49 PM
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Hsu's service is excellent as well. You won't go wrong with either but I'd go with the Hsu for the tuning abilities.
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post #3 of 38 Old 02-20-2020, 02:18 PM
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At the same price I'd go with SVS. Who knows, you might want more in the next year. SVS allows for a painless trade in upgrade if you say wanted a PB3000. Plus you would need to add the extended warranty to the HSU to cover the electronics for 5 years.

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post #4 of 38 Old 02-20-2020, 03:01 PM
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If really hold out for the vtf3 mk5

Pb3000/4000 performance for nearly half the price !!
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post #5 of 38 Old 02-20-2020, 04:38 PM
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I would get the SVS PB-2000 while it is on sale for $699
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post #6 of 38 Old 02-20-2020, 06:38 PM
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For primarily movies I vote pb-2000. It has an advantage at 40hz and below which is prime movie effects territory. The Hsu has an advantage at 50hz and above so mid bass territory. Still useful for movies but most find the low bass range more desirable for movies.
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post #7 of 38 Old 02-20-2020, 07:21 PM
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Originally Posted by macgallant View Post
If really hold out for the vtf3 mk5

Pb3000/4000 performance for nearly half the price !!
I keep seeing you say this kind of thing, the PB4000 in extended mode has 107db at 16hz, The mk5 has 99db. So its worth almost 3 mk5s below 20hz. In the past you derided me for ignoring sub 20hz bass. You going to flip flop on this one? Over 25hz yes they are roughly equivalent but if you care about sub 20hz bass its not even close.

https://www.audioholics.com/subwoofe...-hp-subwoofers

https://www.audioholics.com/subwoofe...0/measurements

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Originally Posted by Matt Fowler View Post
I keep seeing you say this kind of thing, the PB4000 in extended mode has 107db at 16hz, The mk5 has 99db. So its worth almost 3 mk5s below 20hz. In the past you derided me for ignoring sub 20hz bass. You going to flip flop on this one? Over 25hz yes they are roughly equivalent but if you care about sub 20hz bass its not even close.

https://www.audioholics.com/subwoofe...-hp-subwoofers

https://www.audioholics.com/subwoofe...0/measurements
agreed, the hsu has no balls where it counts down low.
ive got a pb 4000, and it feels like the bass is coming out of the whole damn floor on some movies.
have to hear it to believe it.
it hits so low, clean, and tight...amazing
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post #9 of 38 Old 02-20-2020, 08:14 PM
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Originally Posted by nodoubt View Post
agreed, the hsu has no balls where it counts down low.
ive got a pb 4000, and it feels like the bass is coming out of the whole damn floor on some movies.
have to hear it to believe it.
it hits so low, clean, and tight...amazing
I'm not saying the mk5 isn't a great sub. Its an amazing value I'd never criticize it. Its just not equal to a PB4000....and between 20-30hz the PB3000 is better.

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post #10 of 38 Old 02-21-2020, 07:22 AM
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Originally Posted by mkellypc View Post
Hello,
Unfortunately it's another this one or that one thread. I am upgrading my crap BIC F12 sub and am looking at the PB-2000 or the VTF-2. My budget is $700. Most comparisons I have seen are the PB-2000 vs VTF-3, but since the PB-2000 has dropped in price, these are what are comparable for my budget. I understand the customer service advantage of SVS, and it is an important factor to me. But ultimately performance is the most important. I really don't see me going duals anytime as this is not a big enough priority these days with me. My wife is ill with stage IV cancer so this will be the extent of my upgrade capabilities.
This will be used primarily for movies (90%), tho I do enjoy to sit and listen occasionally to music. Main speakers are Polk LSi 15's, driven from and Adcom 545II (caps and ic's were upgraded years ago). They are fed by Marantz SR5010.
Room is approximately 2800 cu ft., with no back wall.
Again, I have no ability or desire to go with anything larger or multiple subs. Either of these will surely be an improvement over what I have currently.

Many thanks in advance...
Where SVS separates itself in the bass from other makes is from 20hz to 30hz (and maybe a little lower with the bigger models). If you want chest rattling bass well then lesser subs or Hsu has a hope of delivering this exaggerated experience. SVS is for rule flat bass down to 20hz and what that brings. This accurate sound frankly is wonderful full range and will allow your Atmos effects to really pop. How bass is reproduced affects the perception of high frequencies. The SVS extension will likely yield more apparent high end extension to your ears though of course those top range measurements will remain unchanged. This is the perspective of someone who came from really the ultimate chest rattling bass system and all its terrors and has used dual pb12-nsd to tame the full range (oh and with the right placement and minidsp - HD for me - one can get flatter response with one sub, but not ruler flat.) To my ears every hump and bulge in the bass obscures some sonic detail. SVS is for those who want perfection which is an unfatiguing sound with wonderful immersion (with Atmos on my system).



I'd get the PB2000, but keep an eye on the store as once in a while a perfect condition pb12-nsd still comes in and those sell for $500 or less. Full upgrade rights for a year, so you can always go to the PB2000 within 45 days at absolutely no cost. As a returning customer you get a 5% discount as well. Its $55 return shipping for PB2000 sized sub where they pick up from your door if past the 45 day window so the 5% discount will eliminate most of that cost. Keep your eyes peeled elsewhere in your locality and maybe you can go dual.

-The single digits are where the magic lies.....they deliver a 'touch of god' sensation that sometimes makes the hairs on one's arms stand up. It's hard to describe but it feels like you are there in the recording studio with the artist and "feeling" them move as they are playing the instrument. You can't see them, but you can feel them as movements are happening on the floor below you. - trhought

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post #11 of 38 Old 02-21-2020, 07:49 AM
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Originally Posted by mkellypc View Post
Hello,
.....Room is approximately 2800 cu ft., with no back wall.
......
Stop the press! So your room is 2800 cubic foot and how big is the area behind with no back wall?


If you have a huge area I believe Monolith THX 12 with a minidsp might be your best option on paper. You can use the minidsp to try to tame the Monolith's extremen bulges and extend the 20-30 hz range. If your room is effectively over 5000 cubic feet or close the Monolith's raw power may be your answer. Monoprice sometimes discounts on weekends and holidays another 10% so if seriously considering the Monolith then you'll need to research price history. In past sometimes as much as 15% discount whereas SVS very regimented and HSU has shipping charges. I'm not an expert on Monoprice shopping and I'm ASSuming they always do free shipping on these subs. Amazon has done a deal too. Other than PB12-NSD monoprice gives some hope of dual down the line. They even have a 10 inch THX model that I've not price researched, but one could get dual with that. Here are the 10 specs:

The ported mode above is shockingly close to PB12-NSD (flat without much drop at 25 hz). Almost the same output numbers across the top range.


Here is the bone crushing THX 12 Monolith

youtuber villaman has a very nice comparison video with the PB3000 and the Monolith sounds a lot thicker and less refined, but that might be partially tameable with minidsp unit. As you can see those output results are robust to say the least even at 20 hz. Just a beast and if your room as a big as I think then one pb2000 may be pushing it.


PB-2000 CEA 2010 Results (2 meter RMS)
  • 20Hz 103.8 dB
  • 25Hz 107.6 dB
  • 31.5Hz 109.6 dB
  • 40Hz 110.1 dB
  • 50Hz 110.5 dB
  • 63Hz 111.5 dB
Basically you add 6 db for two subs so two PB12-NSD and two Monolith THX 10's spec out to 113 db bass with close to the same amount of extension.


If you go dual subs you probably could skate buy without minidsp unit. Again my preference is for SVS and their sound. The Monolith's like HSU much harder to return if you are unhappy. The most bang for the buck is a Monolith 12 on sale. If you run out of steam in the bass department the protection circuitry will protect, but its likely you'll be more likely to localize the subwoofer which would be doom with a single sub.

-The single digits are where the magic lies.....they deliver a 'touch of god' sensation that sometimes makes the hairs on one's arms stand up. It's hard to describe but it feels like you are there in the recording studio with the artist and "feeling" them move as they are playing the instrument. You can't see them, but you can feel them as movements are happening on the floor below you. - trhought
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post #12 of 38 Old 02-21-2020, 08:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Matt Fowler View Post
I keep seeing you say this kind of thing, the PB4000 in extended mode has 107db at 16hz, The mk5 has 99db. So its worth almost 3 mk5s below 20hz. In the past you derided me for ignoring sub 20hz bass. You going to flip flop on this one? Over 25hz yes they are roughly equivalent but if you care about sub 20hz bass its not even close.

https://www.audioholics.com/subwoofe...-hp-subwoofers

https://www.audioholics.com/subwoofe...0/measurements


pb3000/pb4000 performance yes

why?

equal performance to the PB3000 above 30hz
the PB3000 has more ouput from the 20-25 while the HSU has more from 15-20, and up to 3.8dB more in max extension.
Extension wins this round

The HSU's performance between 15-20hz falls between the PB3000 and PB4000

The best part is it cost $500 less than the PB3000
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Originally Posted by macgallant View Post
pb3000/pb4000 performance yes

why?

equal performance to the PB3000 above 30hz
the PB3000 has more ouput from the 20-25 while the HSU has more from 15-20, and up to 3.8dB more in max extension.
Extension wins this round

The HSU's performance between 15-20hz falls between the PB3000 and PB4000

The best part is it cost $500 less than the PB3000
I think its misleading to use the phrase "PB3000/PB4000" when again the 4000 is worth almost 3 mk5s below 20hz. It implies the 3000 and 4000 are basically a wash which I am sure is part of your SVS shaming agenda.

To be fair after you buy an extended warranty and pay for shipping from Hsu its more like a 350-400 difference vs the PB3000 (shipping is included in the price of SVS subs). Whatever, theres perks that come from SVS, mobile app (don't underrate this, I hate having to go upstairs to make minidsp adjustments every time I run audyssey etc, or go screw with dials on the back of the sub, you always know EXACTLY where your gain is at rather then guessing based on dial position), free return, 5% dual discount, 5% return customer discount, full value trade ups within one year (which I have benefited from twice).

Whatever go Hsu, hsu is great, I agree. SVS is good too.

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post #14 of 38 Old 02-21-2020, 09:13 AM
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Originally Posted by nodoubt View Post
agreed, the hsu has no balls where it counts down low.
ive got a pb 4000, and it feels like the bass is coming out of the whole damn floor on some movies.
have to hear it to believe it.
it hits so low, clean, and tight...amazing
To the op if your budget is strictly 700 then I would go with the pb2000 vs the hsu vtf2. However, I would save another 150 bucks by eating peanut butter jelly sandwhiches and get the vtf 3 all day long over the pb2000. Alot more performance for only a small amount of money. If you are going to compare the pb4000 then you have to compare to dual vtf3 since it comes priced still below the pb4000. You will net 5-6db stacked or co-located. 3-6db gain for non-located duals properly time aligned. I will take dual vtf3 with a few pennies left over a pb4000 everyday of the week. With dual vtf 3 your output at 16 hz will be right there with the svs pb4000. More output at 20hz and pulls away by quite a bit above 20. Basically you will get around the same output below 20hz and a ton more midbass with dual vtf3 over the 4000. And still come in cheaper than the pb4000. A 1000 dollar cheaper sub has more midbass output toe to toe is pretty outstanding imo. Dual vtf3 over a 4000 is a no brainer imo. The pb4000 is a good sub but the performance to price is not that great as with most svs subs today. Who would pay 2500 for a pb 16 when you can buy a jtr, psa, funk or rythmik sub in that price range and get alot more performance for your money. Now if performance price ratio is not a big deal to you then svs is a fine company and good sub to have.
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post #15 of 38 Old 02-21-2020, 09:27 AM
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To the op if your budget is strictly 700 then I would go with the pb2000 vs the hsu vtf2. However, I would save another 150 bucks by eating peanut butter jelly sandwhiches and get the vtf 3 all day long over the pb2000. Alot more performance for only a small amount of money. If you are going to compare the pb4000 then you have to compare to dual vtf3 since it comes priced still below the pb4000. You will net 5-6db stacked or co-located. 3-6db gain for non-located duals properly time aligned. I will take dual vtf3 with a few pennies left over a pb4000 everyday of the week. With dual vtf 3 your output at 16 hz will be right there with the svs pb4000. More output at 20hz and pulls away by quite a bit above 20. Basically you will get around the same output below 20hz and a ton more midbass with dual vtf3 over the 4000. And still come in cheaper than the pb4000. A 1000 dollar cheaper sub has more midbass output toe to toe is pretty outstanding imo. Dual vtf3 over a 4000 is a no brainer imo. The pb4000 is a good sub but the performance to price is not that great as with most svs subs today. Who would pay 2500 for a pb 16 when you can buy a jtr, psa, funk or rythmik sub in that price range and get alot more performance for your money. Now if performance price ratio is not a big deal to you then svs is a fine company and good sub to have.
Once you get into Dual PB16/JTR 2400/FV25HP/PSA 18 inch + you are in a scenario where you are 120db+ from 15-100hz (Or in the case of JTR below 15hz, maybe PSA as well, haven't seen measurements). I'm leaving out Funk because they are WAYYY more expensive and below 30hz don't come close to the other brands, can't be beat for midbass though. You can buy an insane ported Funk but that another pricing tier althogether.

Point being if you can afford these setups it comes down to brand perks/aesthetics I think. The PB16 is a monster between 15-40hz, and the piano gloss finish is gorgeous.

Bottom line if you can order something that expensive odds are you will end up dual, and then by extension have 120db+ capacity for all the most important frequencies. So who cares??

If you want to listen to 129db peaks instead of 124db peaks you should also allocate hearing aids into your budget maybe?
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Originally Posted by Matt Fowler View Post
I think its misleading to use the phrase "PB3000/PB4000" when again the 4000 is worth almost 3 mk5s below 20hz. It implies the 3000 and 4000 are basically a wash which I am sure is part of your SVS shaming agenda.

To be fair after you buy an extended warranty and pay for shipping from Hsu its more like a 350-400 difference vs the PB3000 (shipping is included in the price of SVS subs). Whatever, theres perks that come from SVS, mobile app (don't underrate this, I hate having to go upstairs to make minidsp adjustments every time I run audyssey etc, or go screw with dials on the back of the sub, you always know EXACTLY where your gain is at rather then guessing based on dial position), free return, 5% dual discount, 5% return customer discount, full value trade ups within one year (which I have benefited from twice).

Whatever go Hsu, hsu is great, I agree. SVS is good too.
Could you explain how you are coming up with 3mk5 below 20hz? These are the numbers I am seeing for dual vtf 3 vs pb4000. Dual HSU still cheaper.

Dual HSU SVS PB4000

16hz 105 16hz 107.1
20hz 111.4 20hz 109.2
25hz 116.1 25hz 110.4
31.5hz 119.6 31.5hz 113.6
40hz 123.1 40hz 116.3
50hz 123.5 50hz 118
63hz 122.8 63hz 115.4
80hz 122.4 80hz 114.2


These numbers were taken from audioholics 2m cea results. As you can see very close from 20hz down but the dual hsu pull away by a mile above 20hz. 7-8db advantage up top for the hsu.
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Could you explain how you are coming up with 3mk5 below 20hz? These are the numbers I am seeing for dual vtf 3 vs pb4000. Dual HSU still cheaper.

Dual HSU SVS PB4000

16hz 105 16hz 107.1
20hz 111.4 20hz 109.2
25hz 116.1 25hz 110.4
31.5hz 119.6 31.5hz 113.6
40hz 123.1 40hz 116.3
50hz 123.5 50hz 118
63hz 122.8 63hz 115.4
80hz 122.4 80hz 114.2


These numbers were taken from audioholics 2m cea results. As you can see very close from 20hz down but the dual hsu pull away by a mile above 20hz. 7-8db advantage up top for the hsu.
Duals add 6 db, third sub adds 3db. So the difference between solo subs is 8db. You are 1db away from being 3 mk5 equivalent.

I would take dual VTF-3s over one PB4000 anyday. However what if you have a PB4000 and want to go dual? Now you have 113 db at 16hz. I've found in my room on concrete (6k cu ft) I need >115db to feel pressurization/subsonic waves of spl and TR below 20hz. So it comes down to the room as well if you really want to benefit from <20, in my room all frequencies below 20 were effectively worthless with lesser subs then PB16s because they couldn't top that 115db threshhold even with duals.

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post #18 of 38 Old 02-21-2020, 09:39 AM
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Once you get into Dual PB16/JTR 2400/FV25HP/PSA 18 inch + you are in a scenario where you are 120db+ from 15-100hz (Or in the case of JTR below that, maybe PSA as well, haven't seen measurements). I'm leaving out Funk because they are WAYYY more expensive and below 30hz don't come close to the other brands, can't be beat for midbass though. You can buy an insane ported Funk but that another pricing tier althogether.

Point being if you can afford these setups it comes down to brand perks/aesthetics I think. The PB16 is a monster between 15-40hz, and the piano gloss finish is gorgeous.

Bottom line if you can order something that expensive odds are you will end up dual, and then by extension have 120db+ capacity for all the most important frequencies. So who cares??

If you want to listen to 129db peaks instead of 124db peaks you should also allocate hearing aids into your budget maybe?
I would agree that it comes down to many things when purchasing a subwoofer. Thats why I say if performance price ratio is not number one then svs is a great sub and company to go with. I have had svs in the past. Have you seen the new budget funks so to speak. 2600 for sealed 18 and around 3500 for ported 18 with amazing performance according to nathan and the best sound quality sub you can buy imo. So you can get into funk audio now without spending a ton like u said.
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post #19 of 38 Old 02-21-2020, 09:47 AM
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Duals add 6 db, third sub adds 3db. So the difference between solo subs is 8db. You are 1db away from being 3 mk5 equivalent.

I would take dual VTF-3s over one PB4000 anyday. However what if you have a PB4000 and want to go dual? Now you have 113 db at 16hz. I've found in my room on concrete (6k cu ft) I need >115db to feel pressurization/subsonic waves of spl and TR below 20hz. So it comes down to the room as well if you really want to benefit from <20, in my room all frequencies below 20 were effectively worthless with lesser subs then PB16s because they couldn't top that 115db threshhold even with duals.
I understand the math but it is not 3 mk5 equivalent. You have to compare dual hsu numbers since the price is very close with dual hsus. So less than 3db advantage at one frequency. It would require close to 3 pb4000 to hang with dual hsu up top. So over 5 grand of svs 4000 subs compared to 1800 dollars to get close to same performance. That shows how bad price to performance ratio svs is imo. If you already have a pb4000 then of course just add another one. But for someone about to make a purchase I just don't see the value in a pb4000 when dual hsu pretty much smoke it above 20hz and within 3db at one frequency. Yea you need alot of output down low to get TR and pressurization especially on concrete. The crowsons with BEQ take the TR to another level as I see you have them as well. Crowson are amazing.
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post #20 of 38 Old 02-21-2020, 09:50 AM
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I would agree that it comes down to many things when purchasing a subwoofer. Thats why I say if performance price ratio is not number one then svs is a great sub and company to go with. I have had svs in the past. Have you seen the new budget funks so to speak. 2600 for sealed 18 and around 3500 for ported 18 with amazing performance according to nathan and the best sound quality sub you can buy imo. So you can get into funk audio now without spending a ton like u said.
Regarding the 18 inch sealed, if you go out to (https://data-bass.com/#/systems?_k=gjka0n) though even the funk 21 inch, being sealed, is more of a midbass monster compared to the PB16. The PB16 has way more 15-30hz output for half the price. For my tastes I care more about that range due to being a HT guy, I want extreme TR. And with duals still 120db+ in the 40-100 range which is more then enough to cover music for my tastes/remaining hearing ability anyway.

I'm sure the sound quality is far superior on the Funks.

I'm sure that 18 inch ported funk is amazing but its still 3500 aka wife would slay me category. I barely made it from the previous upgrade.
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post #21 of 38 Old 02-21-2020, 09:54 AM
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I would agree that it comes down to many things when purchasing a subwoofer. Thats why I say if performance price ratio is not number one then svs is a great sub and company to go with. I have had svs in the past. Have you seen the new budget funks so to speak. 2600 for sealed 18 and around 3500 for ported 18 with amazing performance according to nathan and the best sound quality sub you can buy imo. So you can get into funk audio now without spending a ton like u said.
Yeah my point is if you are on concrete and in a huge room then the dual 4000 become worth considering, if you can't get to 115db after room gain below 20hz then there is no point in comparing sub 20hz freqs of lesser subs because they will ALL come up too short.

So much variation in the room, it takes an expert user to truly know what their needs are. I can attest that 108db at 16hz in my room is flat out worthless. 120db at 16hz is sublime holy crap this is unbelievably worth it.
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Where SVS separates itself in the bass from other makes is from 20hz to 30hz (and maybe a little lower with the bigger models). If you want chest rattling bass well then lesser subs or Hsu has a hope of delivering this exaggerated experience. SVS is for rule flat bass down to 20hz and what that brings. This accurate sound frankly is wonderful full range and will allow your Atmos effects to really pop. How bass is reproduced affects the perception of high frequencies. The SVS extension will likely yield more apparent high end extension to your ears though of course those top range measurements will remain unchanged. This is the perspective of someone who came from really the ultimate chest rattling bass system and all its terrors and has used dual pb12-nsd to tame the full range (oh and with the right placement and minidsp - HD for me - one can get flatter response with one sub, but not ruler flat.) To my ears every hump and bulge in the bass obscures some sonic detail. SVS is for those who want perfection which is an unfatiguing sound with wonderful immersion (with Atmos on my system).



I'd get the PB2000, but keep an eye on the store as once in a while a perfect condition pb12-nsd still comes in and those sell for $500 or less. Full upgrade rights for a year, so you can always go to the PB2000 within 45 days at absolutely no cost. As a returning customer you get a 5% discount as well. Its $55 return shipping for PB2000 sized sub where they pick up from your door if past the 45 day window so the 5% discount will eliminate most of that cost. Keep your eyes peeled elsewhere in your locality and maybe you can go dual.
THANK You for the ONE post that addresses my original question. I thought I was clear in my post that I had NO interest in larger or multiple subs, but yet this is where everyone wants to take the discussion. It's not a question of what I can afford. I have other priorities. Cars and photography are my primary hobbies and take all my disposable income. This is just something I enjoy a few time a week at most.
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THANK You for the ONE post that addresses my original question. I thought I was clear in my post that I had NO interest in larger or multiple subs, but yet this is where everyone wants to take the discussion. It's not a question of what I can afford. I have other priorities. Cars and photography are my primary hobbies and take all my disposable income. This is just something I enjoy a few time a week at most.
Sorry for derailing this! Also reread the initial post, somehow missed the bit about your wife, terribly sorry to hear about this.

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THANK You for the ONE post that addresses my original question. I thought I was clear in my post that I had NO interest in larger or multiple subs, but yet this is where everyone wants to take the discussion. It's not a question of what I can afford. I have other priorities. Cars and photography are my primary hobbies and take all my disposable income. This is just something I enjoy a few time a week at most.
Haha. Well I went off the dual sub deep end as well.


Seriously you should look at the size of your room. No back wall to me means your rooms has much more volume then you've stated. Lowest I've seen dual monoprice THX 10 inchers puts you a touch over budget, but greater sound and smaller size may give more placement options.


If your room is only 2700 cubic feet or very close, well PB12-NSD with minidsp is enough. I'm at 3700 cubic feet and one PB12 was enough, but very, very glad I got a 2nd one later. PB12-NSD with mini probably gets you the best bang for the buck. The top curve below is my PB12 response with minidsp:
Just one subwoofer and that does have some smoothing hiding some warts.

-The single digits are where the magic lies.....they deliver a 'touch of god' sensation that sometimes makes the hairs on one's arms stand up. It's hard to describe but it feels like you are there in the recording studio with the artist and "feeling" them move as they are playing the instrument. You can't see them, but you can feel them as movements are happening on the floor below you. - trhought
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Haha. Well I went off the dual sub deep end as well.


Seriously you should look at the size of your room. No back wall to me means your rooms has much more volume then you've stated. Lowest I've seen dual monoprice THX 10 inchers puts you a touch over budget, but greater sound and smaller size may give more placement options.


If your room is only 2700 cubic feet or very close, well PB12-NSD with minidsp is enough. I'm at 3700 cubic feet and one PB12 was enough, but very, very glad I got a 2nd one later. PB12-NSD with mini probably gets you the best bang for the buck. The top curve below is my PB12 response with minidsp:
Just one subwoofer and that does have some smoothing hiding some warts.

The PB12-NSD is what got me into this mess! I saw it last week on SVS outlet at $499. Had one in my cart. By the time I committed they were sold out! So now i want to upgrade but will not spend over $700. I have a new lens and car parts on my list that are more important. Anything has to be significantly better than the f12 I've been using for 5+ years.
I'm attaching a pic to help with room config. It was taken from the kitchen that the room opens up to. Our home is very much open concept so hard to say how mush actual volume to include.
Thanks again
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Where SVS separates itself in the bass from other makes is from 20hz to 30hz (and maybe a little lower with the bigger models). If you want chest rattling bass well then lesser subs or Hsu has a hope of delivering this exaggerated experience. SVS is for rule flat bass down to 20hz and what that brings. This accurate sound frankly is wonderful full range and will allow your Atmos effects to really pop. How bass is reproduced affects the perception of high frequencies. The SVS extension will likely yield more apparent high end extension to your ears though of course those top range measurements will remain unchanged. This is the perspective of someone who came from really the ultimate chest rattling bass system and all its terrors and has used dual pb12-nsd to tame the full range (oh and with the right placement and minidsp - HD for me - one can get flatter response with one sub, but not ruler flat.) To my ears every hump and bulge in the bass obscures some sonic detail. SVS is for those who want perfection which is an unfatiguing sound with wonderful immersion (with Atmos on my system).



I'd get the PB2000, but keep an eye on the store as once in a while a perfect condition pb12-nsd still comes in and those sell for $500 or less. Full upgrade rights for a year, so you can always go to the PB2000 within 45 days at absolutely no cost. As a returning customer you get a 5% discount as well. Its $55 return shipping for PB2000 sized sub where they pick up from your door if past the 45 day window so the 5% discount will eliminate most of that cost. Keep your eyes peeled elsewhere in your locality and maybe you can go dual.
I do agree as I stated in my first post that I would go pb2000 over vtf2. You have given the op alot of bad information in your response. HSU frequency response is ruler flat as well. There are no humps or bulges in frequency response. Not sure where you are getting that information. You calling the HSU exaggerated bass or experience is totally innaccurate. Have you ever heard a HSU sub? I for one prefer the sound quality of HSU over svs that I have heard. Many avs forum members as well as youtube reviewers like you mentioned prefered the hsu over svs. Could you let me know what subs you consider fatiguing?
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post #27 of 38 Old 02-21-2020, 10:48 AM
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Hello,
Unfortunately it's another this one or that one thread. I am upgrading my crap BIC F12 sub and am looking at the PB-2000 or the VTF-2. My budget is $700. Most comparisons I have seen are the PB-2000 vs VTF-3, but since the PB-2000 has dropped in price, these are what are comparable for my budget. I understand the customer service advantage of SVS, and it is an important factor to me. But ultimately performance is the most important. I really don't see me going duals anytime as this is not a big enough priority these days with me. My wife is ill with stage IV cancer so this will be the extent of my upgrade capabilities.
This will be used primarily for movies (90%), tho I do enjoy to sit and listen occasionally to music. Main speakers are Polk LSi 15's, driven from and Adcom 545II (caps and ic's were upgraded years ago). They are fed by Marantz SR5010.
Room is approximately 2800 cu ft., with no back wall.
Again, I have no ability or desire to go with anything larger or multiple subs. Either of these will surely be an improvement over what I have currently.

Many thanks in advance...
I apologize for the derail as well. I try to give as much CORRECT infromation that I can when someone is trying to spend a good amount on subwoofers. You can't go wrong with either one.
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I do agree as I stated in my first post that I would go pb2000 over vtf2. You have given the op alot of bad information in your response. HSU frequency response is ruler flat as well. There are no humps or bulges in frequency response. Not sure where you are getting that information. You calling the HSU exaggerated bass or experience is totally innaccurate. Have you ever heard a HSU sub? I for one prefer the sound quality of HSU over svs that I have heard. Many avs forum members as well as youtube reviewers like you mentioned prefered the hsu over svs. Could you let me know what subs you consider fatiguing?
Don't think I quite said anything disparaging about HSU other than their return policy vs. SVS. They are definitely a value and go low nicely as do the Monolith. But I am unfamiliar with the model you specified and have studied the more expensive 15 inch model more which is very highly regarded. Its all what you get from the room and some rooms will boost low bass better than others. I've simply pointed out what I like about the SVS sound I've heard. I am completely unfamiliar with the vtf2, but let me see what I kind find (I've got a friend with a dual subwoofer budget and that model should not be overlooked.)


Tons of output and HSU has a fine reputation and with shipping just over the OP's budget line. My point still holds that the SVS and Monolith by these specs are a little more robust overall at 25hz and 20hz, but the HSU is close.


The goal is flat in room extension and if the HSU mates up well with a room in that regard it is a great value with its exceptionally strong output. My SVS bias is readily apparent I hope and I'm merely extolling what I do think they bring to the table and if you peruse audioholics response curves they have the flattest responses. If you want chest rattling bass from what I've heard and experienced SVS subs don't naturally do that played at reference volumes (though loud enough I'm sure they would). I've merely stated that HSU might be able to achieve some of that feel for those who love bass as be all and end all. People do all sort of crazy things and I'm even seeing on hot forum here where users are making couch and chair shakers for an amazing price if you like DIY. Is it accurate? Don't know as I've not experienced it. Others want bass that will rattle things (subsonic) and Monolith seems to have strong output down low. Others don't wish for subsonic output and are happy with SVS's typically steep rolloff. I expect all of these choices have sonic consequences and I've been merely extolling the virtues of the flattest possible response and SVS commitment to this approach. People know what they want and will read through the lines of my blowviating.

-The single digits are where the magic lies.....they deliver a 'touch of god' sensation that sometimes makes the hairs on one's arms stand up. It's hard to describe but it feels like you are there in the recording studio with the artist and "feeling" them move as they are playing the instrument. You can't see them, but you can feel them as movements are happening on the floor below you. - trhought

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Hello,
Unfortunately it's another this one or that one thread. I am upgrading my crap BIC F12 sub and am looking at the PB-2000 or the VTF-2. My budget is $700. Most comparisons I have seen are the PB-2000 vs VTF-3, but since the PB-2000 has dropped in price, these are what are comparable for my budget. I understand the customer service advantage of SVS, and it is an important factor to me. But ultimately performance is the most important. I really don't see me going duals anytime as this is not a big enough priority these days with me. My wife is ill with stage IV cancer so this will be the extent of my upgrade capabilities.
This will be used primarily for movies (90%), tho I do enjoy to sit and listen occasionally to music. Main speakers are Polk LSi 15's, driven from and Adcom 545II (caps and ic's were upgraded years ago). They are fed by Marantz SR5010.
Room is approximately 2800 cu ft., with no back wall.
Again, I have no ability or desire to go with anything larger or multiple subs. Either of these will surely be an improvement over what I have currently.

Many thanks in advance...
You through me for a loop with that Adcom thinking you might only be stereo. But I see the receiver.


I saw the picture of your room and I'm guessing a dining room and kitchen may be where no back wall is? If so this puts you up probably over the 5000 cubic feet limit or darn close. If this is the case you need output! PB12-NSD is rated for up to 5000 cubic feet and it probably just skates by. It doesn't do any good to be in denial of a massive listening environment.



The HSU and the Monolith have more output than the SVS PB2000 and I'm afraid that consideration trumps all. You'll have to wait for the Monolith to go on sale for it to make your budget and they are as bad as HSU with returns.


Oh here are numbers on your bic's slightly more amp power cousin:
MANUFACTURER & MODEL 10hz 12.5hz 16hz 20hz 25hz 31.5hz 40hz 50hz 63hz 80hz 100hz 125hz 20-80Hz +/-3dB Window
BIC ACOUSTECH: PL-200 / / / 84 96.2 102.5 107.7 110.4 108.1 106.5 105.3 103.8 +/-13.2dB40-100Hz (OUCH!)
SVS PB12-NSD / / 93.3 103.2 105.0 105.9 106.5 107.3 108.0 108.7 109.2 109.6 +/-2.8dB 20-100Hz
SVS PC2000 / / 95.6 104.3 108.7 109.9 111.5 111.2 110.9 109.9 109.6 109.5 +/-3.6dB 25-125Hz
(The PC2000 is darn close to a PB2000, but audioholics notes "Tested by Paul Apollonio", but assuming same methodology, but a different field outdoors.)



I'd guess your model is about 3 db lower and the port tuning might clash with a lower tuned sub, but you can always try to use it as it might zig where the SVS zags and help out while SVS handles super lows on its own. Your Bic's more powerful cousin is rated for 1500-3000 cubic feet so suspect you've been undernourished and then some considering your effective room volume is two sizes up.


I think we're all waiting for the exact cubic feet of the entire area. Its just a huge thing in how the sub will interact with the room. The good news about such a big room is good chance you might have listening seats not backed up against a bunch of walls and be fighting room modes. It would be great to have exact dimensions of the room. Such a room is totally different from someone shoehorning their home theater into a moderate sized bedroom.


Darn. I see PB12-NSD seems to be nearly sold out everywhere, but one on its own probably not a no-brainer without trade in rights. I may be trading in my PB12s for PB 2000 Pro, but its far, far from a done deal. That being said I'd be checking the outlet shop daily if you decide you can sell a few car parts/tools and up your budget. Keep an eye on HSU and Monoprice for deals as well. I set budgets and then lose my mind. (My first NSD arrived black Friday and I literally saw sale and return policy and just bought one on a whim without research, my 2nd one I bought also on a whim and that was from Amazon, but I figured I'd just return the first NSD if dual not for me. Now I'm a minidsp fool and loving the whole bass process and possibly looking to integrate with my two channel LP system where I've got some flagging unobtanium subwoofer drivers.) Three hobbies is a lot, I know.


You also would be very well served coughing up for another tool which is minidsp's umik-1. A little production problem in China right now for these so they might become unobtanium for a while if production continues to be held up. You are just flying blind in the bass without REW and a microphone for that free software.

-The single digits are where the magic lies.....they deliver a 'touch of god' sensation that sometimes makes the hairs on one's arms stand up. It's hard to describe but it feels like you are there in the recording studio with the artist and "feeling" them move as they are playing the instrument. You can't see them, but you can feel them as movements are happening on the floor below you. - trhought

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You through me for a loop with that Adcom thinking you might only be stereo. But I see the receiver.


I saw the picture of your room and I'm guessing a dining room and kitchen may be where no back wall is? If so this puts you up probably over the 5000 cubic feet limit or darn close. If this is the case you need output! PB12-NSD is rated for up to 5000 cubic feet and it probably just skates by. It doesn't do any good to be in denial of a massive listening environment.



The HSU and the Monolith have more output than the SVS PB2000 and I'm afraid that consideration trumps all. You'll have to wait for the Monolith to go on sale for it to make your budget and they are as bad as HSU with returns.


Oh here are numbers on your bic's slightly more amp power cousin:
MANUFACTURER & MODEL 10hz 12.5hz 16hz 20hz 25hz 31.5hz 40hz 50hz 63hz 80hz 100hz 125hz 20-80Hz +/-3dB Window
BIC ACOUSTECH: PL-200 / / / 84 96.2 102.5 107.7 110.4 108.1 106.5 105.3 103.8 +/-13.2dB40-100Hz (OUCH!)
SVS PB12-NSD / / 93.3 103.2 105.0 105.9 106.5 107.3 108.0 108.7 109.2 109.6 +/-2.8dB 20-100Hz
SVS PC2000 / / 95.6 104.3 108.7 109.9 111.5 111.2 110.9 109.9 109.6 109.5 +/-3.6dB 25-125Hz
(The PC2000 is darn close to a PB2000, but audioholics notes "Tested by Paul Apollonio", but assuming same methodology, but a different field outdoors.)



I'd guess your model is about 3 db lower and the port tuning might clash with a lower tuned sub, but you can always try to use it as it might zig where the SVS zags and help out while SVS handles super lows on its own. Your Bic's more powerful cousin is rated for 1500-3000 cubic feet so suspect you've been undernourished and then some considering your effective room volume is two sizes up.


I think we're all waiting for the exact cubic feet of the entire area. Its just a huge thing in how the sub will interact with the room. The good news about such a big room is good chance you might have listening seats not backed up against a bunch of walls and be fighting room modes. It would be great to have exact dimensions of the room. Such a room is totally different from someone shoehorning their home theater into a moderate sized bedroom.


Darn. I see PB12-NSD seems to be nearly sold out everywhere, but one on its own probably not a no-brainer without trade in rights. I may be trading in my PB12s for PB 2000 Pro, but its far, far from a done deal. That being said I'd be checking the outlet shop daily if you decide you can sell a few car parts/tools and up your budget. Keep an eye on HSU and Monoprice for deals as well. I set budgets and then lose my mind. (My first NSD arrived black Friday and I literally saw sale and return policy and just bought one on a whim without research, my 2nd one I bought also on a whim and that was from Amazon, but I figured I'd just return the first NSD if dual not for me. Now I'm a minidsp fool and loving the whole bass process and possibly looking to integrate with my two channel LP system where I've got some flagging unobtanium subwoofer drivers.) Three hobbies is a lot, I know.


You also would be very well served coughing up for another tool which is minidsp's umik-1. A little production problem in China right now for these so they might become unobtanium for a while if production continues to be held up. You are just flying blind in the bass without REW and a microphone for that free software.
The original poster asked for the pb2000 vs the vtf2 not the vtf 3 mk5 (15 inch sub). Since the vtf2 and pb2000 were both under 700. I said i would take the pb2000 over the vtf2 if his budget was strictly 700. My suggestion was to increase his budget by 150 dollars and pick up the vtf3 mk5 instead of pb2000 or vtf 2. The vtf 3 walks all over both of those. He would be getting alot more sub for his money. And yes I agree with you about REW and a umik. A must have imo as well. I agree the bass process is a fun adventure.
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