PSA S1812 v Deep Sea Mariana 18S v Seaton F18 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 28 Old 02-24-2020, 03:07 PM - Thread Starter
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PSA S1812 v Deep Sea Mariana 18S v Seaton F18

Considering an upgrade my current dual HSU VTF-15H MK2 setup. Considering dual PSA S1812s, Deep Sea Mariana 18S or Seaton F18s as possible choices... Any thoughts which is the best route to go? My focus isn't just the lowest of frequencies but tight, flat response. Thanks for any advice.
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post #2 of 28 Old 02-24-2020, 03:08 PM
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I hate to say it, but Seaton has been having issues with fulfilling orders in a timely fashion. They seem to be struggling lately.
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post #3 of 28 Old 02-24-2020, 03:40 PM
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i’d also add the Funk 18.0e and JTR RS1 to your list
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post #4 of 28 Old 02-24-2020, 03:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ccondo1 View Post
Considering an upgrade my current dual HSU VTF-15H MK2 setup.
What’s lacking currently? What are you looking for that the vtf15 pair cannot provide? Are you more into music or movie? How big is your room? Do you have graph of your vtf15s? Depends on your answers, moving to sealed might not be an upgrade or might just be a lateral move.
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post #5 of 28 Old 02-24-2020, 04:17 PM
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wait for it.....
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post #6 of 28 Old 02-25-2020, 05:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ccondo1
Considering an upgrade my current dual HSU VTF-15H MK2 setup. Considering dual PSA S1812s, Deep Sea Mariana 18S or Seaton F18s as possible choices... My focus isn't just the lowest of frequencies but tight, flat response. …
The 960-watt S1812 seems seriously outmatched here. Although the F18+ w/ F18-Slave is the better value, personally I'd be all over a pair of DSS 18S subs.

Just my 2¢. YMMV, of course.
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post #7 of 28 Old 02-25-2020, 06:10 AM
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PSA S1812 v Deep Sea Mariana 18S v Seaton F18

What are your room dimensions? Is it sealed off or open to other rooms? Any opening larger than a doorway is considered open to other rooms.

If you’re in a smallish medium sized sealed room, you will get some ultrasonics out of those sealed subs you couldn’t get with the HSU.

A. It won’t be anything like night and day, and only noticeable with some material.

B. You will lose some headroom at around 25-30 HZ.

C. IMO this would only be advisable if you are under or around ~2000 cubes. Sealed room, and plan on getting four subs eventually.

PS: I’d hold off on Seaton until he gets caught up, it is like 6 mos to 1 year waiting rn. All are great subs, PSA is cheapest of bunch by a grand, but no slouch, but consider the S1812 IPAL. The S3612 is the same price, as other two albeit larger.




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post #8 of 28 Old 02-25-2020, 06:35 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
What’s lacking currently? What are you looking for that the vtf15 pair cannot provide? Are you more into music or movie? How big is your room? Do you have graph of your vtf15s? Depends on your answers, moving to sealed might not be an upgrade or might just be a lateral move.
Honestly, the biggest factor is I want to decrease the footprint to allow more placement options. If I’m upgrading I want to make the best decision possible given the options
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post #9 of 28 Old 02-25-2020, 06:37 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ClawAndTalon View Post
What are your room dimensions? Is it sealed off or open to other rooms? Any opening larger than a doorway is considered open to other rooms.

If you’re in a smallish medium sized sealed room, you will get some ultrasonics out of those sealed subs you couldn’t get with the HSU.

A. It won’t be anything like night and day, and only noticeable with some material.

B. You will lose some headroom at around 25-30 HZ.

C. IMO this would only be advisable if you are under or around ~2000 cubes. Sealed room, and plan on getting four subs eventually.

PS: I’d hold off on Seaton until he gets caught up, it is like 6 mos to 1 year waiting rn. All are great subs, PSA is cheapest of bunch by a grand, but no slouch, but consider the S1812 IPAL. The S3612 is the same price, as other two albeit larger.




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Room is 21L x 16.5W x 9.5H
Sealed room
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post #10 of 28 Old 02-25-2020, 07:05 AM
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Originally Posted by eljaycanuck View Post
The 960-watt S1812 seems seriously outmatched here. Although the F18+ w/ F18-Slave is the better value, personally I'd be all over a pair of DSS 18S subs.

Just my 2¢. YMMV, of course.
I don't think it's seriously out matched at all. The BMS 18" driver(Similar in specs to the IPAL) hit 90db @ 10hz 2m rms. The standard B&C Neo 21" hit 90db(The 18 down 2db)... The S1812Ipal uses a similar size cab as Ricci uses in his sealed sub testing. The Mariana is using a smaller cab then Ricci used to test the HST-18. So I would put the standard S1812 down a couple db under 30hz to the F18 and HST, but the IPAL will likely be right there down low and both the NEO/Ipal will have the advantage up top. Moral of the story, I believe they all will have similar capability down low(+/-2db), but the Neo/Ipal will have the advantage up top. I don't think there is one choice better then the other...it all will come down to the type of sound you are looking for. Only way to know is order one of each and compare.
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post #11 of 28 Old 02-25-2020, 07:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ccondo1 View Post
Room is 21L x 16.5W x 9.5H

Sealed room

You’re just past the upper end of sealed performance in total room volume. Your longest dimension determines room gain. At 21’ that means room gain will start at 26 hz, and increase by 2-4 dB by 20hz, and exponentially on down.

The HSU subs are port tuned at ~22-25hz, likely providing more headroom at that range than the sealed subs, even with their roomgain, but the sealed subs still have quite a bit.

If you want ultrasonics, the sealed will give that where the HSU can’t, but you can get a taste for that by plugging the ports on the HSU and switching to sealed mode. You’ll also need a movie with ultrasonics. I like War of the Worlds where the alien ship comes out of the street.

From about 30hz and up the sealed subs will have more headroom but this won’t really be a factor unless you are running over reference and or loud.

All of these subs will give you tight flat bass before being over driven, the HSU included. The sealed subs will have more headroom above 30hz, but will only be realized if you were actually going over the headroom of the HSUs which is still quite a bit.

Have you thought about using REW to see exactly how you are performing?


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post #12 of 28 Old 02-25-2020, 07:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Ccondo1 View Post
Honestly, the biggest factor is I want to decrease the footprint to allow more placement options. If I’m upgrading I want to make the best decision possible given the options

Room is 21L x 16.5W x 9.5H
Sealed room
That is >3200 cubic ft which considered to be a big room. Switching to sealed 18" could be a downgrade in output but if you do not listen that loud (we don't know), it does not matter. Out of the three, I have listened to the Seaton F18s, they sound fantastic.
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post #13 of 28 Old 02-25-2020, 07:25 AM
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Originally Posted by ClawAndTalon View Post

The HSU subs are port tuned at ~22-25hz
22Hz is one tuning option of the VTF15, there is also a 16Hz port tuned option.
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post #14 of 28 Old 02-25-2020, 08:27 AM - Thread Starter
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I’ve been running the HSUs with both ports plugged in an effort to avoid boomy bass, is that something I should revisit?
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post #15 of 28 Old 02-25-2020, 08:30 AM
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PSA S1812 v Deep Sea Mariana 18S v Seaton F18

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ccondo1 View Post
I’ve been running the HSUs with both ports plugged in an effort to avoid boomy bass, is that something I should revisit?


The notion that sealed is tighter and ported more boomy is a myth.

I just realized you have VTF15, I misread that as VTF2. I wouldn’t upgrade to those subs in that case.

I would suggest REW, and MiniDSP, a $200 investment and use PEQ as needed.


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post #16 of 28 Old 02-25-2020, 08:36 AM
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
I don't think it's seriously out matched at all. The BMS 18" driver(Similar in specs to the IPAL) hit 90db @ 10hz 2m rms. The standard B&C Neo 21" hit 90db(The 18 down 2db)... The S1812Ipal uses a similar size cab as Ricci uses in his sealed sub testing.
The BMS 18m862's xmax spec is geometric, it has a 50mm tall voicecoil with a 12mm gap (50-12=38mm/2= 19mm overhang). The BC 18Ipal has a 44mm tall coil with a 12mm gap (44-12=32mm/2= 16mm overhang). The BMS has 3mm more overhang and Xmax since they have the same gap.
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post #17 of 28 Old 02-25-2020, 08:42 AM
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I’ve been running the HSUs with both ports plugged in an effort to avoid boomy bass, is that something I should revisit?
IMO, even though the VTF15 has an option to run as sealed with both port plugged, I wouldn't buy it to run it as such. I would try to set them in 16Hz mode (1 port open), adjust your Q control and phase (if necessary) and re-run audio calibration. Do you have graph(s) of your subs?
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post #18 of 28 Old 02-25-2020, 08:45 AM
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wait for it.....

Right?!

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post #19 of 28 Old 02-25-2020, 07:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Jeff Permanian View Post
The BMS 18m862's xmax spec is geometric, it has a 50mm tall voicecoil with a 12mm gap (50-12=38mm/2= 19mm overhang). The BC 18Ipal has a 44mm tall coil with a 12mm gap (44-12=32mm/2= 16mm overhang). The BMS has 3mm more overhang and Xmax since they have the same gap.
Thanks for that...I thought the Xmax on the Ipal was 19mm.
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post #20 of 28 Old 02-25-2020, 07:51 PM
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Thanks for that...I thought the Xmax on the Ipal was 19mm.
You always have to read the fine print when it comes to speaker specs. The 18Ipal spec of 19mm isn't geometric or overhang but overhang plus 25% of the gap (25% of 12mm) which is 3mm (16+3=19mm). Drivers with gaps less than about 0.75" usually end up with a 30% down of bl (10% distortion) when the coil is 25% of the way through the gap. Drivers with gaps greater than about 0.75" usually end up with a 30% down of bl when the coil is 30% of the way through the gap. The BMS with the xmax spec'ed the same as the 18Ipal would be 22mm.
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post #21 of 28 Old 02-25-2020, 08:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Ccondo1 View Post
Considering an upgrade my current dual HSU VTF-15H MK2 setup. Considering dual PSA S1812s, Deep Sea Mariana 18S or Seaton F18s as possible choices... Any thoughts which is the best route to go? My focus isn't just the lowest of frequencies but tight, flat response. Thanks for any advice.
Tight flat response? Save your money and do the MiniDSP 2x4HD, UMIK-1, and REW routine as suggested by others. Try running EQ1 and 1 port, or EQ2 and both ports also. Running sealed defeats the purpose of the enclosure size and ports on the VTF-15H Mk2...

**edited to remove comments on the V1812 that don't apply to the S1812.

MiniDSP 2x4HD, UMIK-1, REW... The holy trinity for running multiple subs.

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post #22 of 28 Old 02-25-2020, 08:20 PM
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^^ He is asking about the sealed 1812 denoted by the letter S in the model name, not the ported v1812.
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post #23 of 28 Old 02-25-2020, 08:53 PM
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^^ He is asking about the sealed 1812 denoted by the letter S in the model name, not the ported v1812.
Good catch, I totally spaced S instead of V, thanks.

My advice about miniDSP, Umik-1 and REW still stands.

If getting smaller subs for more placement options, speaking of box size, not driver size, then I'd also recommend going with 4 subs instead of 2 in addition to the MiniDSP 2x4Hd, Umik-1, and REW.

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post #24 of 28 Old 02-26-2020, 06:39 AM - Thread Starter
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I already use a MiniDSP HD and UMIK and REW. I’ll see if I can dig up my curves later. I would like more room placement options (namely front corners or one in back) but maybe this is just a symptom of upgraditis and I should be happy with my current setup... Though I could swap out my cheap Polk Atmos speakers for some RSLs.... 😜
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post #25 of 28 Old 02-26-2020, 08:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Ccondo1 View Post
I already use a MiniDSP HD and UMIK and REW. I’ll see if I can dig up my curves later. I would like more room placement options (namely front corners or one in back) but maybe this is just a symptom of upgraditis and I should be happy with my current setup... Though I could swap out my cheap Polk Atmos speakers for some RSLs....

Have your tried running a sweep with your subs? The corner vs where they are? Just move furniture enough to get them in there for testing purposes.

The best thing is to find your first placement that is flattest. Corners do tend to work best for most folks. Second is to find a place for sub number two which compliments any dips in sub number one.

Sight unseen I’d want a front corner and an opposing back corner.

Also, most of those subs are wider but just less deep. I’m not sure you’d gain much real estate but I can’t see what you can. Keep in mind a sub doesn’t have to be pointed at you.


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post #26 of 28 Old 02-26-2020, 09:14 AM - Thread Starter
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Can I turn them 90 degrees sideways and not impact the sound at all?
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post #27 of 28 Old 02-26-2020, 10:00 AM
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PSA S1812 v Deep Sea Mariana 18S v Seaton F18

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Originally Posted by Ccondo1 View Post
Can I turn them 90 degrees sideways and not impact the sound at all?

You can point them in any direction you want. As long as the driver and or ports have about 2-3” (yes inches) clearing from walls. Any movement of the sub can effect on sound though. But as a matter of practice pointing the sub at you is never strictly necessary

Bass is generated inside the subwoofer, usually around the motor of the driver and inside the port, and spreads out omnidirectionally. Think of it as a light leaving a round light bulb. Does it matter if it’s pointed at you or the side of the bulb?

I bet your have your subs are firing at you, rn? Don’t worry, I see it all the time. But it’s totally unnecessary to do that.



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post #28 of 28 Old 05-20-2020, 11:04 PM
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I turn my subs so they fire along the walls. Gets the drivers closer to the wall = flatter in-room response.

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