I'd like information on subwoofer power and would like subwoofer recommendations #2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 28 Old 03-02-2020, 12:38 PM - Thread Starter
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I'd like information on subwoofer power and would like subwoofer recommendations #2

I'm considering buying a subwoofer. In this previous post, I didn't think to ask what my power requirements are in order to fill my room, so, three months later, I asked here and 95 people opened that thread but no one responded. I guess that that new message was too long and they didn't read it. So, I'm going to simplify this message by only saying and asking what is necessary:
  • What I think I really need to know is, how much subwoofer power is required to obtain output down to and including 20 Hz that I perceive to have equal loudness as my main speakers' output, in my room, which I have attached a crude drawing of? Of course, materials in the room will have an impact too. <-- This is my *most* important question.
  • Room size and layout: my home theater system is in a room that serves as a home theater room as well as a bedroom. I've attached a crude drawing of my room's layout. You'll see that there's only one chair, and that's because usually I'm the only one watching. Occasionally, however, I'll move this chair to the left in order to make room for another chair or two, which I can bring in from another room, so that I can watch things with my mom and/or with other family members when they come over.
  • What I think I need more than recommendations for individual subwoofer models, is what specifications should I look for, and how do I find subwoofers with those specifications. Please teach me the science so that I can find subwoofer models on my own.
  • Primary uses: I think that the choice of a 'music' sub over a 'home theater' sub (or vice-versa) is a false choice. Ideally, I want a high-quality sub that is great for everything: TV shows, movies, games, and music of all genres.
  • The volume at which I listen to content: I popped my Gravity 3D Blu-ray (which has a dialog norm value of +4) into my Xbox, went to the dialog-heavy part at the beginning (prior to the action), and increased the volume until the dialog got to a comfortable level. It got to -18.0 dB. I watched the whole movie, and the volume seemed about right. Then, I ejected Gravity and inserted Top Gun 3D (which has a dialog norm value of +4), watched it, and throughout the movie, I gradually increased the volume to - 17dB. It was a bit too loud during the battle scene, but I guess it was a good volume for the quieter scenes. Obviously, different content might sound best at different volume levels. Why am I mentioning all of this? Because I'm wondering about a subwoofer or subwoofers whose output I will perceive to match the output of my main speakers, all the way down to 20 Hz.
  • A *bonus* would be output of ultra-low frequencies (< 20 Hz).
  • My budget: I don't have a set-in-stone budget. I want to know what my options are before I decide how much I'm comfortable spending.
  • Subwoofer enclosure size limits: I don't have a set-in-stone size limit. I want to know what my subwoofer options are.
  • How soon I want to have a subwoofer or subwoofers: I am interested in buying a subwoofer or subwoofers, but I'm not in a hurry.
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TV: LG 47LW5700, AVR: Onkyo TX-NR787, speakers: DCM KX speakers:DCM KX-12 Series 2 (as front left and front right), DCM KX Center Series 2, DCM KX-6 Series 2 (as side surround left and right), sources: Xbox One S, Playstation 2 (fat model), Nintendo GameCube (model with digital AV output) with GameBoy Player, Panasonic VCR (PV-4661), PC: Microsoft Surface Pro (5th generation), phone: iPhone 7 Plus, my Last.fm profile
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post #2 of 28 Old 03-02-2020, 01:09 PM
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I dont see anything meaningful to help you out. how loud do you listen to your speakers in db? reference level is 115db for subs...but most dont listen that loud.

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post #3 of 28 Old 03-02-2020, 01:21 PM
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Hi,

I'm not going to do multiple posts on your thread, but I will make a few observations. First, I think that the more threads you start, the less likely it is that people will respond to any of them. If I were you, I would close/delete your other new thread, and just focus on this one. I would also not post any more to your 2019 thread. That just brings it upward again, in the list of subwoofer threads, and again reduces the chance that someone will try to help you.

Second, don't worry about having a subwoofer which will equal the output of your speakers. You want a subwoofer which will exceed the output of your speakers. The LFE channel, which will be played exclusively by your subwoofer, is recorded 10dB louder than the regular channels that your speakers will play. And, you will bass-manage your speakers, probably with an 80Hz crossover, to direct the lowest frequencies to your sub. Again, a good subwoofer will be much more powerful than your speakers.

Third, your total room size, for room gain purposes, is about 2200^3. It's a fairly small space, but it's not tiny, so I would recommend a ported subwoofer to start with.

Fourth, since you haven't used a subwoofer before, you are flying blind here. If I were you, I would buy a ported subwoofer from SVS. They offer a free 45-day trial period which includes return shipping. Until you actually try a subwoofer of some sort, in your room, you are going to have a very tough time trying to figure out the difference between your speakers and a real subwoofer, and what very low-frequencies sound and feel like.

Looking at SVS's Outlet Store, they have some ported PB2000's and PC2000's on sale for $699. I know that you originally said that your initial budget was a little less than half that. But, the main thing you need to do right now is to try something. And, this constitutes a no-risk trial. Alternatively, you can certainly continue to watch Craig's List, or you could try the Dayton sub you mentioned, or go with some other subwoofer.

The problem is that, if you get a really inexpensive subwoofer, it won't really answer many of your questions. A good subwoofer (such as the PB/PC 2000) will give you a night-and-day bass difference, compared to your speakers, where a small, inexpensive subwoofer will not. You need a starting point of some sort, and I think that it needs to be significant enough to show you what you are missing. Telling you about subwoofers, and low-bass frequencies, won't really help. And, a free-trial period protects you if you decide that the sub is too much, or not enough, or whatever, while you learn.

You might also want to do a little reading about HT calibration and subwoofers, in the Guide linked below, when you get a chance. That will help get you started, when you do actually have a subwoofer in your room to test.

Good luck!

Regards,
Mike

GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #4 of 28 Old 03-02-2020, 01:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Here are some new pictures of my room. In my drawing, I forgot to include the metal shelving that my clothes are on. EDIT: I'm having trouble uploading the pictures.

TV: LG 47LW5700, AVR: Onkyo TX-NR787, speakers: DCM KX speakers:DCM KX-12 Series 2 (as front left and front right), DCM KX Center Series 2, DCM KX-6 Series 2 (as side surround left and right), sources: Xbox One S, Playstation 2 (fat model), Nintendo GameCube (model with digital AV output) with GameBoy Player, Panasonic VCR (PV-4661), PC: Microsoft Surface Pro (5th generation), phone: iPhone 7 Plus, my Last.fm profile

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post #5 of 28 Old 03-02-2020, 03:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Third, your total room size, for room gain purposes, is about 2200^3. It's a fairly small space, but it's not tiny, so I would recommend a ported subwoofer to start with.
I know that you said that you weren't going to post multiple times in this thread, but would you or someone else mind explaining the science behind this? According to my math, my room is 2,242 cubic feet. Is that what you meant by "2200^3"? My math doesn't account for the fact that the ceiling is slightly sloped on the home theater side, and the walls and ceiling are more dramatically sloped in the bed area. So the total cubic feet of this room is less than 2,242. To make matters worse, I have closets (my drawing shows dark lines where the closet doors are, but I didn't bother to draw the closet spaces) and some sound is going to escape into those closets, as well as through the room's door. My point is that I'm aware that my room isn't a cube and I wonder what affect that will have on its acoustics (for our purposes, I'm only concerned about the low-frequency acoustics for now). I'm also curious about how if it were a cube, would a bigger cube-shaped room have more or less room gain than a smaller cube-shaped room?

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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
You might also want to do a little reading about HT calibration and subwoofers, in the Guide linked below, when you get a chance. That will help get you started, when you do actually have a subwoofer in your room to test.
I have looked at that and have made some notes, though I haven't read the whole thing.

TV: LG 47LW5700, AVR: Onkyo TX-NR787, speakers: DCM KX speakers:DCM KX-12 Series 2 (as front left and front right), DCM KX Center Series 2, DCM KX-6 Series 2 (as side surround left and right), sources: Xbox One S, Playstation 2 (fat model), Nintendo GameCube (model with digital AV output) with GameBoy Player, Panasonic VCR (PV-4661), PC: Microsoft Surface Pro (5th generation), phone: iPhone 7 Plus, my Last.fm profile

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post #6 of 28 Old 03-02-2020, 03:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Is there an equation I can use that would tell me, based on my room's dimensions and shape and my desire for power down to 20 Hz (and, optionally, lower) what subwoofer specifications I should look for?

TV: LG 47LW5700, AVR: Onkyo TX-NR787, speakers: DCM KX speakers:DCM KX-12 Series 2 (as front left and front right), DCM KX Center Series 2, DCM KX-6 Series 2 (as side surround left and right), sources: Xbox One S, Playstation 2 (fat model), Nintendo GameCube (model with digital AV output) with GameBoy Player, Panasonic VCR (PV-4661), PC: Microsoft Surface Pro (5th generation), phone: iPhone 7 Plus, my Last.fm profile
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post #7 of 28 Old 03-02-2020, 04:01 PM
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maybe this will help you. https://www.soundstagenetwork.com/?o...338&Itemid=141

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post #8 of 28 Old 03-02-2020, 04:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drew Neilson View Post
I know that you said that you weren't going to post multiple times in this thread, but would you or someone else mind explaining the science behind this? According to my math, my room is 2,242 cubic feet. Is that what you meant by "2200^3"? My math doesn't account for the fact that the ceiling is slightly sloped on the home theater side, and the walls and ceiling are more dramatically sloped in the bed area. So the total cubic feet of this room is less than 2,242. To make matters worse, I have closets (my drawing shows dark lines where the closet doors are, but I didn't bother to draw the closet spaces) and some sound is going to escape into those closets, as well as through the room's door. My point is that I'm aware that my room isn't a cube and I wonder what affect that will have on its acoustics (for our purposes, I'm only concerned about the low-frequency acoustics for now). I'm also curious about how if it were a cube, would a bigger cube-shaped room have more or less room gain than a smaller cube-shaped room?

I have looked at that and have made some notes, though I haven't read the whole thing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drew Neilson View Post
Is there an equation I can use that would tell me, based on my room's dimensions and shape and my desire for power down to 20 Hz (and, optionally, lower) what subwoofer specifications I should look for?

Okay, just one more!

Forget about the sloping ceiling and the closets. Whether your room is about 2000^3, or 2200^3, won't make an appreciable difference to the room gain you will be getting, nor will the fact that your room isn't a cube. You actually wouldn't want your room to be a cube. The distortion in a cube is reinforced, in part because all six surfaces promote straight-line ricochets of sound waves.

There is some guidance along the lines that you are asking about in Section VIII-C, of the Guide, but I'm not sure that it will be helpful to you until you actually have a subwoofer and some experience with it. I think it's going to be hard for you to extrapolate your actual subwoofer requirements until you have some practical experience with subwoofers. That's not a Catch 22. We have all had to learn about this stuff from experience.

Right now, its a little like trying to analyze what colors you might like best from other people's descriptions of color. You have to hear low-bass frequencies to know how much of them you want. And, you will have to try a sub in order to do that.

Which subwoofer will be enough for you in your room is a judgment call, at best. I have given you my best judgment, for a starting point in your search, in recommending a PB2000 to try. And, although you may not realize it, the three people who gave my post "Likes" are also pretty experienced. That's about as good a consensus of advice as you are going to be able to get at this point.

I hope this last one helped!

Regards,
Mike
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GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.

Last edited by mthomas47; 03-02-2020 at 04:08 PM.
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post #9 of 28 Old 03-02-2020, 06:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
I think that the more threads you start, the less likely it is that people will respond to any of them. If I were you, I would close/delete your other new thread, and just focus on this one. I would also not post any more to your 2019 thread. That just brings it upward again, in the list of subwoofer threads, and again reduces the chance that someone will try to help you.
I don't want to get off-topic for too long, but I want to explain something, and I also need to know if I could have done something better.

Yesterday, when I created a new thread asking about subwoofers, I did so because my focus about what I'm looking for has changed a bit and the old thread from 2019 had irrelevant requests from me, like 'I'm looking for a <$300 subwoofer'. I also had a feeling that if I posted a new message in that thread from 2019, I wouldn't have gotten any responses due to a lack of interest from other people in my follow-ups due to the age of the original post. So I tried starting a new thread with my new questions and then quoting people's comments from the 2019 thread to ask them if their previous comments were still relevant, given my questions have changed. That way, people wouldn't respond like 'uhh, did you not read my comments from three months ago?'
I guess that that made my two posts in that thread too long and as a result, people didn't read that thread. I also guess that it was a mistake for me to post a link in the 2019 thread to yesterday's thread, because it elevated the 2019 thread in the list of threads.
So today I got frustrated by the lack of responses to yesterday's thread, and I created a new thread containing a summarized version of what I said yesterday, without the quotations from others.
I don't like creating two threads in two days on the same subject, I was simply trying to find a solution that would *work*, where I would get responses and also not make anyone feel like I had ignored what they had said earlier.
Is anyone mad at me or annoyed or something similar? I feel like I might want to discuss subwoofers further and I'm worried that some people might ignore me.

TV: LG 47LW5700, AVR: Onkyo TX-NR787, speakers: DCM KX speakers:DCM KX-12 Series 2 (as front left and front right), DCM KX Center Series 2, DCM KX-6 Series 2 (as side surround left and right), sources: Xbox One S, Playstation 2 (fat model), Nintendo GameCube (model with digital AV output) with GameBoy Player, Panasonic VCR (PV-4661), PC: Microsoft Surface Pro (5th generation), phone: iPhone 7 Plus, my Last.fm profile
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post #10 of 28 Old 03-02-2020, 06:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
If I were you, I would close/delete your other new thread
I don't know how to close or delete a thread. I'm not a moderator, so I doubt that I have that capability. I might ask about it in the forum operations center.

TV: LG 47LW5700, AVR: Onkyo TX-NR787, speakers: DCM KX speakers:DCM KX-12 Series 2 (as front left and front right), DCM KX Center Series 2, DCM KX-6 Series 2 (as side surround left and right), sources: Xbox One S, Playstation 2 (fat model), Nintendo GameCube (model with digital AV output) with GameBoy Player, Panasonic VCR (PV-4661), PC: Microsoft Surface Pro (5th generation), phone: iPhone 7 Plus, my Last.fm profile
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post #11 of 28 Old 03-02-2020, 06:31 PM
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well to know for sure....try liking some responses or quoting peoples responses....otherwise nobody in forum world think you care. also you have responded to anyones suggestions...so why would anyone care?
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post #12 of 28 Old 03-02-2020, 07:08 PM
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I'll give it a shot, Drew!

OK, this has a ton of variables, a literal fog of possibilities so it is tough to give an accurate answer. Assuming you are talking HT, your center channel is around 95dB efficient and (just guessing) you have around 100 watts of power and sit back around 10 to 13 feet from the speakers (3 to 4 meters) Basically, you should be able to get "reference volume" or 105dB peaks at your sitting position. Reference volume to "match" that capability is 10dB higher at 115dB at your seated position. Yeah, there is math involved but also adjusted because you are in a typical smaller room (it is small compared to a nightclub or stadium!) Am I close so far?

Alright, to get that kind of performance, you will need some firepower! Sub bass is all about moving air or bore X stroke. This applies to traditional direct radiator type subs (sealed, ported or infinite baffle) Horn loaded or bandpass are different animals and those types tend towards building your own as they are quite huge, very heavy and complex devices. Sure, you can get tapped horn subs for theaters but you get the idea. Power applied to a subwoofer is but one factor, there are other factors that apply to actually making sound--speaker efficiency or how much sound energy the device can provide at one watt measured at one, or extrapolated down to one meter. Ported speakers tend to be more efficient or require less power than sealed to get the same SPL (look at pro sound speakers, they tend to be ported for that reason) Ported is far, far more efficient at their tuned frequency and as long as that frequency limit is good for you, tend to be the best choice if cost or quantity of subwoofers is a concern.

The other factor is you generaly need two subwoofers to get even bass response in more than one seat. (Don't shoot the messenger!) However, you might be able to get away with one as long as it is positioned correctly and you mentioned one seat--you might be able to get away with one sub if you do a "sub crawl" not hard to do but not really important right now (sub crawl can be searched on AVS or youtube for more information)

A word of warning, the AVS crew generally don't sit around and listen to folk music and sipping tea...just letting you know bass heads exist in the shadows of thease forums. I have been accused but not (yet) convicted of such low frequencies crimes against automotive glass, drywall and waking the neighbors.

This can get really wordy, quite complex and so on...however, there is one saving grace. You can use more than one sub if your needs demand more even bass response (a full couch instead of a chair) if you demand more SPL because your needs change and so on. I offer this as "advice" get a 15 inch ported sub that offers multiple ports so you can change the tuning or try sealed if you like. I know that Hsu and SVS offers those--they are not inexpensive but if cost is tight right now, a 12 would give you something as long as it can be tuned to around 20Hz or lower. You can add a second one later...or a third...or a forth because this is AVS. Very broadly speaking, for most people in rooms your size a pair of 15's do the duty at quite high levels but not always! One guy on hear has over 30 subs soooo... To start, I'd look for a 12 or 15 inch sub that can run sealed or ported and try the low ported frequency to learn and hear what it will do for you. (Usually done by plugging one of the port) if you want more output, you can keep all the ports open for maximum output but it won't go as low. Plug all the ports for sealed operation and you can learn/understand how sealed works in your room.

Final answer? Sure, a 12 or 15 ported/sealed sub with the port plugs is the most flexible subwoofer alignment and you could add more to boost SPL and improve bass response across mutliple seats. If you catch the disease, even with a 12 incher running four of them with one in each corner should provide 95 percent of most peoples needs. If you are the type that likes "rockstar volume" or wants to duplicate a THX/Dolby theater sound in your house, I'd lean towards the 15 to start or start sniffing around at 18's. If you are the type to turn the bass up until the drywall cracks--then back it off a click or two--there is always DIY with stadium amps.

Hope that helps, you can't have "too much sub" because the lower in SPL, the lower your distortion will be which is always a good thing. Good luck and I hope I added more clarity than confusion.
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post #13 of 28 Old 03-02-2020, 07:54 PM
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if I were you, I would build my own.

It's a VIRTUAL channel unless stated otherwise.
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post #14 of 28 Old 03-02-2020, 08:01 PM
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I will keep this short(er).

I think "Mthomas47" has a great idea... get the SVS PB2000... it is a solid, well
Performing sub. PLUS...SVS offers free returns/exchanges if your not happy.
From there you can decide what YOU NEED from a sub.

My experience is that higher quality sounding subs start at about $500.
From reading your posts I (personally) don't think you would be happy
With a $300 "Budget sub". You will end up regretting it.
AND the last thing you want to do is to have to start shipping
Subwoofers BACK because you didnt like them. $$$$$

Lastly, I think you are very close to Analsis Paralysis if not already
There. It's time for you to take the plunge....you've been asking
About subs for awhile now.

There is a lot to learn about properly setting up a sub and getting
It dialed in.

Oh, and my favorite budget sub is the sealed Rythmik L12. About $560
With free shipping (but not returns)
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post #15 of 28 Old 03-02-2020, 08:17 PM
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Where are you located? See if any audio stores, Best Buy or Fry’s Electronic where you can at least listen to something to get started. Otherwise, hit up Craigslist for something. My local CL had an ad for a pair of Rythmik LV12R for $500. I was tempted to buy just to try the Rythmik sound. Thought better since I just spent $1k last month on the Outlaws.

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Being a "new" guy to HT subwoofers, I went through a very small amount of what I think you are experiencing. The difference, I came in with a budget based on research I had done before I asked questions. After I got some feedback, it became apparent I needed to jump in. Meaning quite talking, start spending. I jumped on a PA-150 as it was a highly regarded "cheap" sub with decent (remember the "cheap" part?) performance. Its puts out some crazy (for the price point) SPL and TR (assuming I understand that term). Its LFE leaves a bit to be desired though. The point however was to get my feet wet. My original budget (so I thought) was 3,500.00 for the LR and sub. I forgot about the center. I spent less then 1K on my sig which is what I'm running today. It's pretty impressive compared to the soudbar I was running under my 85" plasma. Will I upgrade? Absolutely. Will it cost more? You bet my kids college scholarship on it! Get to the point DF!! Ok,


My point is, I think you need to determine what you want. Most of that will be budget driven. Get a budget. Go from there. You are spending a bunch of time, thinking, worrying, and digital bits asking questions for specific answers about things the gurus here probably don't have specific answers for and then wondering why no one is helping! There are no mathematical formulas I am aware of that will tell you that for every 500 square feet you need 6.7" of cone surface. ITs all personal preference!



The formula is, how much bass do you like,how low do you like it, and how loud?


Here is a formula I just worked up for you. Lets say bass costs $100.00/unit. Ok bass in a room your size will cost 5-8 units. Good deep bass will cost 8-12 units. Sweet deep reaching base will cost 16-19 units. OMG bass starts at 25-30 units. Now, how many units do you want? And please, I'm not trying to be flippant. Im trying to save you some hair and stomach lining loss. Figure out how many units you need. " Well, Deaf, I don't know how many I need?" Many here have already told you a good starting point. If the 6-8 units they recommended gives you walletburn (like heartburn but different) then you know you need to lower your expectations. No algebraic formula will make it simpler or more accurate. Keep in mind, the typical pattern is to buy, then replace with larger because the first round didn't produce the desired output, or like a good woman, it created a desire for "more". As others have said, spend some money, find out what you like and don't like. This hobby is not without risks. You will waste money. You most likely will buy and have to replace stuff you don't like. Its not a perfect science because every room, and every set of ears (you have 2 ears right?) are different. I could tell you to go get a PA-150 (good luck, I think they are all gone) but just because I like it doesn't mean you will. We can tell you to go get an FV18 or a TV36. You might think its too much and not like it. Pull the trigger on something. Get your feet wet. You cant decide if you like pizza if you never eat pizza. The SVS recommendation is a solid and mistake free choice. You cant make a mistake!



Or, go get a RSL speedwoofer. Its got free returns as well like the SVS if the 7-8 unit pricing is scaring you. Its a bit less so not so painful to jump into assuming that's what has you terrified to make a choice. Put it in the middle of your living room. Hook it up. Listen to it. Play with it. Move it around. Then you will have a real base understanding of what "X" units of bass sounds like in your room. Do something even if its wrong. I promise its not terminal if you make a mistake and if you get too much out of the gate, you can always turn it down.



Mods, I apologize if I pushed the price talk rule. Feel free to hand out lashes as necessary.
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Being a "new" guy to HT subwoofers, I went through a very small amount of what I think you are experiencing. The difference, I came in with a budget based on research I had done before I asked questions. After I got some feedback, it became apparent I needed to jump in. Meaning quite talking, start spending. I jumped on a PA-150 as it was a highly regarded "cheap" sub with decent (remember the "cheap" part?) performance. Its puts out some crazy (for the price point) SPL and TR (assuming I understand that term). Its LFE leaves a bit to be desired though. The point however was to get my feet wet. My original budget (so I thought) was 3,500.00 for the LR and sub. I forgot about the center. I spent less then 1K on my sig which is what I'm running today. It's pretty impressive compared to the soudbar I was running under my 85" plasma. Will I upgrade? Absolutely. Will it cost more? You bet my kids college scholarship on it! Get to the point DF!! Ok,


My point is, I think you need to determine what you want. Most of that will be budget driven. Get a budget. Go from there. You are spending a bunch of time, thinking, worrying, and digital bits asking questions for specific answers about things the gurus here probably don't have specific answers for and then wondering why no one is helping! There are no mathematical formulas I am aware of that will tell you that for every 500 square feet you need 6.7" of cone surface. ITs all personal preference!



The formula is, how much bass do you like,how low do you like it, and how loud?


Here is a formula I just worked up for you. Lets say bass costs $100.00/unit. Ok bass in a room your size will cost 5-8 units. Good deep bass will cost 8-12 units. Sweet deep reaching base will cost 16-19 units. OMG bass starts at 25-30 units. Now, how many units do you want? And please, I'm not trying to be flippant. Im trying to save you some hair and stomach lining loss. Figure out how many units you need. " Well, Deaf, I don't know how many I need?" Many here have already told you a good starting point. If the 6-8 units they recommended gives you walletburn (like heartburn but different) then you know you need to lower your expectations. No algebraic formula will make it simpler or more accurate. Keep in mind, the typical pattern is to buy, then replace with larger because the first round didn't produce the desired output, or like a good woman, it created a desire for "more". As others have said, spend some money, find out what you like and don't like. This hobby is not without risks. You will waste money. You most likely will buy and have to replace stuff you don't like. Its not a perfect science because every room, and every set of ears (you have 2 ears right?) are different. I could tell you to go get a PA-150 (good luck, I think they are all gone) but just because I like it doesn't mean you will. We can tell you to go get an FV18 or a TV36. You might think its too much and not like it. Pull the trigger on something. Get your feet wet. You cant decide if you like pizza if you never eat pizza. The SVS recommendation is a solid and mistake free choice. You cant make a mistake!



Or, go get a RSL speedwoofer. Its got free returns as well like the SVS if the 7-8 unit pricing is scaring you. Its a bit less so not so painful to jump into assuming that's what has you terrified to make a choice. Put it in the middle of your living room. Hook it up. Listen to it. Play with it. Move it around. Then you will have a real base understanding of what "X" units of bass sounds like in your room. Do something even if its wrong. I promise its not terminal if you make a mistake and if you get too much out of the gate, you can always turn it down.



Mods, I apologize if I pushed the price talk rule. Feel free to hand out lashes as necessary.

Post-of-the-Day right there!
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if I were you, I would build my own.


ain’t nobody got time for dat....




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post #19 of 28 Old 03-07-2020, 10:51 AM
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ain’t nobody got time for dat....




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... and you've spent how many hours researching, posting, stressing, wishing, hand wringing, about this purchase? Could have finished the project 3 times over!

Let me try to simplify this for you:

"Your reach exceeds your grasp."

What you want in bass performance exceeds your budget by a factor of something in the neighborhood of 4, perhaps more. You have three ways to address this discrepancy. One, stop now, save up, and come back when you have a much bigger budget. Two, go with a build project. You still will only get about half of what you want in a sub, but it will get you the most for your money. Three, re-adjust your expectations to fit your actual budget.

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... and you've spent how many hours researching, posting, stressing, wishing, hand wringing, about this purchase? Could have finished the project 3 times over!
Are you aware that Matthew Patient and I are not the same person?

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Are you aware that Matthew Patient and I are not the same person?
I am now!

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post #22 of 28 Old 03-08-2020, 07:03 PM
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Quote:
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... and you've spent how many hours researching, posting, stressing, wishing, hand wringing, about this purchase? Could have finished the project 3 times over! [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/eek.gif[/IMG]
Are you aware that Matthew Patient and I are not the same person?

Either way, have you picked a direction?

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post #23 of 28 Old 03-10-2020, 08:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Either way, have you picked a direction?
No, for two reasons:

- I'm waiting for a response to my post here. I figure that once I know what volume in dB I listen to my speakers at, I can add 10 dB to that and know that I need my subwoofer to be able to reach at least that volume in my room. You see, I was looking at the articles from the Wirecutter about the best budget subwoofer and the best premium subwoofer--which I've probably linked to elsewhere in this thread--and the article about the best premium subwoofer links to all of their CEA-2010 results and I was trying to decide whether I wanted a premium subwoofer that could reach very low frequencies at the volume that I listen to my main speakers + 10 dB. That's why I need to know what volume I'm actually listening to my speakers. Of course, the Wirecutter's subwoofer reviews were done in their own room and not in mine, and those CEA-2010 results are one-meter-equivalents (as opposed to results from a chair at the same distance that mine would be).

- Some bigger, more important issues have come up that I need to deal with first. One of them is money. I'm not sure that I should buy a subwoofer right now because of money issues. I'm going to avoid getting into much detail, but I realized yesterday that I haven't been responsible with money, and now I need to be much more careful with my spending. I want to get my finances in order before I buy a subwoofer.

Yes, there is sort of a contradiction between what I said in my first point and what I said in my second point. My first point is what I would've said a few days ago, before I started worrying about money.

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No, for two reasons:

- I'm waiting for a response to my post here. I figure that once I know what volume in dB I listen to my speakers at, I can add 10 dB to that and know that I need my subwoofer to be able to reach at least that volume in my room. You see, I was looking at the articles from the Wirecutter about the best budget subwoofer and the best premium subwoofer--which I've probably linked to elsewhere in this thread--and the article about the best premium subwoofer links to all of their CEA-2010 results and I was trying to decide whether I wanted a premium subwoofer that could reach very low frequencies at the volume that I listen to my main speakers + 10 dB. That's why I need to know what volume I'm actually listening to my speakers. Of course, the Wirecutter's subwoofer reviews were done in their own room and not in mine, and those CEA-2010 results are one-meter-equivalents (as opposed to results from a chair at the same distance that mine would be).

- Some bigger, more important issues have come up that I need to deal with first. One of them is money. I'm not sure that I should buy a subwoofer right now because of money issues. I'm going to avoid getting into much detail, but I realized yesterday that I haven't been responsible with money, and now I need to be much more careful with my spending. I want to get my finances in order before I buy a subwoofer.

Yes, there is sort of a contradiction between what I said in my first point and what I said in my second point. My first point is what I would've said a few days ago, before I started worrying about money.
I know I'm new here, but I think you're going into (quoting another member) analysis paralysis. There's no way you're going to be able to sit in a room and say, "Hey, that sub is playing at +10 db in comparison to my speakers." I'd recommend putting together a list of all subs that are truly in your price range, compare the specs and the looks, and then pull the trigger on the one you like best. Then, from there, if you like the amount of bass after tuning, perfect. If not, return it and wait until you can step up to the next price point.

Honestly, just about anything you add at your price point will add some color to your sound, considering you don't have a dedicated sub in the first place. If you still have the budget, take the opportunity to get it now. If you don't like it, just return it, and then pick a new direction once the budget allows.
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post #25 of 28 Old 03-11-2020, 02:41 PM
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I know I'm new here, but I think you're going into (quoting another member) analysis paralysis. There's no way you're going to be able to sit in a room and say, "Hey, that sub is playing at +10 db in comparison to my speakers." I'd recommend putting together a list of all subs that are truly in your price range, compare the specs and the looks, and then pull the trigger on the one you like best. Then, from there, if you like the amount of bass after tuning, perfect. If not, return it and wait until you can step up to the next price point.

Honestly, just about anything you add at your price point will add some color to your sound, considering you don't have a dedicated sub in the first place. If you still have the budget, take the opportunity to get it now. If you don't like it, just return it, and then pick a new direction once the budget allows.
Makes sense to me.

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post #26 of 28 Old 03-11-2020, 03:22 PM
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From what I've read in your posts you say you would like a subwoofer and you would like it to be a good subwoofer, but you don't have a budget and in your latest post you realize you need to actually think about saving money before you buy anything. Those are very different paths of thought. I suggest you take one of two courses of action:

1. If you really don't have the finances then don't buy anything and start saving your money.

2. If you do have some expendable income then take the advice of some of the guys who posted above and just buy something you can afford.

When I first got into this hobby I bought Polk subwoofer from the Crutchfield outlet for a decent price (50% off). Was it a great subwoofer? No, but it provided some bass and I could afford it. That sub also told me I liked what I heard and wanted more of it which meant I needed to save money so down the road I could buy a better subwoofer. Unless you're rich you have to start with what you can afford and be patient and build your system over years of upgrades. That's what makes the hobby fun... buy, listen, learn, save and upgrade when you can.
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post #27 of 28 Old 03-11-2020, 03:28 PM
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When I first got into this hobby I bought Polk subwoofer from the Crutchfield outlet for a decent price (50% off). Was it a great subwoofer? No, but it provided some bass and I could afford it. That sub also told me I liked what I heard and wanted more of it which meant I needed to save money so down the road I could buy a better subwoofer.
I agree. I started off with One Bic America F12, then a second, then I went into diy
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post #28 of 28 Old 03-21-2020, 09:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Due to my financial situation, I have decided not to get anything more expensive than what The Wirecutter recommends as the best budget subwoofer. Right now, that is the Dayton Audio SUB-1200. However, I'm worried about one thing. The room that I drew a schematic for--the room that contains my home theater and my bed--is right over the dining room, and Mom isn't sure that the light over the dining room table 100% securely mounted to the ceiling, and a few weeks or months ago I was exercising using one of my Xbox One Kinect games--a game that involves jumping and rapid step movements--and Mom came upstairs and told me to stop that exercise because she's afraid that the light fixture will come loose due to the vibrations that my jumping (or rapid stepping, or whatever I was doing) was creating.

I guess that before I put a subwoofer in my room, either we should make sure that the dining room light is secured strongly enough to the ceiling to withstand the floor vibrations that a subwoofer will create, or I should find a way to isolate the subwoofer enough from the floor that the floor will get no vibrations from the subwoofer. I was just reading that the long waves of bass will penetrate walls, floors, etc., so maybe isolating the subwoofer from the floor won't help.

Further, downstairs she can hear the bass from my existing speakers. I've noticed that when I'm playing something upstairs and go downstairs without pausing it, downstairs I can hear things like explosions in movies. Mom hasn't complained about it, but she brought it up when I said that I'm interested in buying a subwoofer.

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